Tier List Speculation

[Empyrean]

I predict that the next troll will victimize Oro.

As for Samus, the way I see it is that Ice Beam works better at higher percentage, with fair and up-smash having so much kill potential while still being relatively quick. Unfortunately, Ice Missiles < Normal Missiles, for the super ones at least. And the Power Beam seems to work well to rack up damage and extend combos. Super Missile and f-smash are insane, though.

I am no matchup expert, but it feels like Samus should be able to do well against most of the cast, with her having all these options and all. Hopefully people have started developing her, because we have barely seen any at recent/major events. One of these days, someone will SWD all the way to first place, I tell ya!

 

[Plum]

I sort of cringe when people make tier lists with future talk and assumptions of how the characters could shape up after more development and doing "x y and z" instead of/in addition to what they are currently doing

Tier lists should reflect "now" and ideally would be as ever evolving as the metagame itself
Just in the definition of a tier list, they are about the expected performance of a given character as the metagame stands at the time of creation

So what a character and the players using them could be doing or even should be doing makes no difference
What they are actually doing now is what matters
And in the future, when/if things change then the tier list changes to reflect said changes

So if in theory land Lucas players start doing totally next level stuff that blows all our minds and makes us question why we ever thought spacies were the best in the game then I'm all for putting Lucas in that top spot
but unless that's happening right now it shouldn't really have a big impact on a discussion of the current metagame and expected results within said metagame

so when people (you know who you are) be all "you guys only put spacies on top because they have over a decade of development already but what if other characters are better and we don't know yet?!?!?!" or "these characters are underdeveloped so we can't make a tier list yet" I can't help but die a little inside
as we learn new **** the tier list changes
that's part of the fun in making them imo
you get a snapshot of the metagame and you can visually see how it changes and grows by comparing it to future tier lists

 

[jtm94]

Lucas is overhyped. He has a lot of technical aspects, but he is lacking in a SUPER SOLID BnB KO move. I've been playing him for a while, and the upthrow is a godsend at 130%, but that aside you either go for bair dunks.... Nair, or Up Smash. I don't want to hear his charge-up remedies this, it helps kinda... but in an either I'm neglecting to edgeguard you, or just KOd you kind of way. Fair really isn't strong, fsmash isn't that strong, downsmash does ridiculous % if you can somehow land both hits, but I haven't seen Pink Fresh net KOs off of it, and Upsmash is about it... Yeah he has a Dacus, and downthrow combos into usmash at EARLY %, but why does he seem so weak? I'm not complaining at all, just calling to attention.

Mario can KO with Fair, Bair, Nair, Dsmash, Fsmash, Usmash, Bthrow.

Mario is pretty crazy, he has too many guaranteed combos off of simple things... like jab to dsmash, jab to grab, jab to dtilt to fsmash, downthrow to haymaker. Some characters lack a means to even consistently land their KO moves... Olimar.

Olimar is a weird beast. I agree with him being a watered down Ivy with less overall space being covered by his attacks. The grab range varying per pikmin is stupid and unintuitive... Like... let me go for a grab that some of my pikmin can get, but didn't see purple was my next one... That bothers me a lot. The throws can at least vary per pikmin as well as the pummel, but I want to see the range normalized. It isn't even incredibly fast.

Also, spacies are still incredibly good. Fox is the best though. Falco has lasers and the dunk + shine pillaring, but Fox has the easiest to land KO move that he can go into out of anything he lands almost. Then upthrow to uair is a thing, and shine spikes, and bair if he still didn't KO with those.

People rate characters on how well they're doing, but start rating them on other aspects. How many KO moves does X character have? How many moves does X character have that combo into those moves?

Let's look at Ivy..... You can bair for days with extreme range gimping the recovery of space animals, Falcon, Ganon, and others at little risk. A LOT of range, a far-reaching grab the length of a tether BUT WAIT, it isn't a tether so it can grab people in the air too. downthrow sets up into seedbomb, UpB, fair sets up into UpB, upthrow can help to use UpB. You can spike someone into the ground and use UpB. She seems super good, but outside of UpB KOing most of the cast at 80%(being generous) she doesn't have other crazy strong moves and she lost her fthrow that was as strong as(stronger than?) bthrow. And her other moves have fair KO power bar solar beam and downsmash at high percents.

It isn't the way a character should be evaluated, but a fresh view helps seeing how or why some characters are lacking. It's early forgive grammatical errors.

 

[DrinkingFood]

You probably won't be seeing him for awhile.

hella based hylian

 

[Joe73191]

I just want to throw in some thoughts after reading a bunch of this thread. First to be on topic, from what I see that tier list is something like some order of S=
A= Then I would say virtually everyone else is after that. It's just too balanced to have minor tiers after that.

I'm not opposed to a tier list, any competitive game has one. I think that i causes someone people to ask for nerfs because they think their main in not viable and they would rather ask to nerf a character than to buff their own. I don't like nerfs, and I don't like that so many people are asking for nerfs.


So many people are hating on fox and falco and I don't main them and yes I'm scared to face them, they are great characters and in the right hands truly fearsome. That does not mean they should be nerfed. In fact I think it's part of their identity. I feel as though fox, marth, falco, shiek and jigglypuff should be exactly as they were in melee.

Those 5 were such an iconic part of the competitive smash community that to make them anything less than what they are would be just sad. However if the new tricks and characters of PM that were not in melee push them out of top tier than great, it just means the game has evolved.

Characters should not be nerfed based on how well they do compared to them and those guys should not be nerfed compared to how well they do against everyone else. I think as of 3.02 the cast is fine the way it is. They should stop making changes. Let us as players adapt to the characters, not adapting the characters to the players. I mean melee was huge and we didnt get to change characters we felt were too good, no we had to adapt and learn.

I think a big part of the tier list in not as much the character themselves but the person behind the character. Players who are above and beyond the competition in skill affect the tier list more than the characters themselves. I mean think of how jigglypuff jumped in tiers because of Mango and HungryBox. Think of what Armada did with Peach and Young Link. I mean sure in brawl you take a 2 players with equal skill one with ganondorf and one with metaknight there is an obvious discrepancy in the characters. However If I were the metaknight and M2K were the ganondorf I would get decimated. Instead of complaining you should make an upset happen. Be the next Hungrybox or Armada. We have it within ourselves to make PM as big as melee was, its up to you. Take it from here. It's your turn now.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Cliché inspirational attempts/10

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

lucas' recovery is way, way to ****ing good
with it hes possibly better then spacies

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Oh my god Mike pls

@ jtm94 I mean, sometimes you only need a few solid kill moves, look at Fox. Kappa.

I do get where you're coming from though, but Lucas CAN use other moves to kill, it's just takes some more creativity. I actually like DSmash against Spacies when they're forced to recover up and at an angle, it's a great edgeguard Smash and sends Fast fallers at a lethal angle. I think my favorite use is using it if someone misses a tech and I run up to them. FSmash has some solid reach and does combo off PK Freeze up close. Bair is solid as a kill move if you Spike and even when you don't and actually can be combo'd into off several things (DThrow, Magnet, UAir). You can even kill off the top on low ceiling stages with Offense Up Burst. Killing with Lucas sometimes isn't straightforward, just gotta do what you gotta do.

I definitely don't think Lucas' big problems are killing power and think it's more related to him being combo/chaingrab bait and gimpability offstage if you aren't careful with him/the opponent knows what they're doing. I say everyone give Lucas time before making outlandish claims though, yeah some people put him way too high right now, but I think for the time being Lucas is looking solid enough to be rated well.

If anyone's gonna take time to develop, it's definitely Lucas, haha

 

[Burnsy]

I think it remains to be seen if they're putting him too high or not.

I also think that tier lists should involve some level of theory. If everyone put Yoshi, Kirby, and Oli the bottom of their tiers lists because they aren't being used significantly, its like saying they don't have what it takes to compete. They do, they're just unique characters that haven't quite had time to develop or find a great player to take then to the next level. Whether it is right or wrong, the message many players get from seeing a character perpetually put in low tier is that "this character NEEDS something", even if all they really need is for some dedicated and talented people to put the time in.

 

[Nausicaa]

I sort of cringe when people make tier lists with future talk and assumptions of how the characters could shape up after more development and doing "x y and z" instead of/in addition to what they are currently doing

Tier lists should reflect "now" and ideally would be as ever evolving as the metagame itself
Just in the definition of a tier list, they are about the expected performance of a given character as the metagame stands at the time of creation

you get a snapshot of the metagame and you can visually see how it changes and grows by comparing it to future tier lists

This is pretty skewed...
Like, if everybody always said Fox was the best (in Melee) yet didn't win a major tournament or even come close for a good half a decade at least (in Melee) then why was he ever tops pre-Evo (in Melee)?
Now is context so you can see things clearer, basically to develop the meta-game itself, the understanding of the evolving itself, and that includes all time-tenses of the process.
Just by the definition of a tier list, the expected performance of a given character right this moment can be far from the out-put of the fraction of a player-base of them.
See *the Wolf/ZSS/Lucas himself, and the players at the 'front' of their meta-games in terms of mainstream view-able content, are only slowly picking up on things I wrote in detail the days they were released.

Why is it difficult to 'see' that Side-B is a good kill move for Wolf, and when applied as expected in an individuals performance with him, not something you can visually snap-shot, and not something that the observable benefits are obvious from to any significant degree, when you yourself could apply them and see the results?
Maybe it's a L2P thing, and sometimes it's just people lacking in ability to see it or do it themselves, but either way, it's bias to think Wolf can't kill with Side-B and it won't help him, simply if it isn't being done by the general populace.
That's just raw conditioning, and if you have a mental volitional reaction to this in the form of cringing, you might want to develop your meta-game on this end.

jtm94: You don't really need to 'dunk' with the B-Air to kill with it. You can easily carry anyone across a stage with F-Air (this has been pretty standard in most meta-games with him for a while) and just hit with the reverse sweet-spot or Magnet turn around to land it. Even if it doesn't flat-out kill, it leads to kills as much as any Falco-combo into B-Air or whatever does.
Edit: This is also super-easy, unlike 2.1/2.5, bothering to play with that until it was guaranteed to work was a silly nuance but at least it makes 2.6> B-Airs feel like they hit the whole screen. XD

For jtm and Plum since this relates to meta-game and semi-kill moves:
Like Mewtwo and Disable, I probably get more kills with that than Shadow Ball, Smashes, or Throws, and it's like... set-KB or something weird. I expect this from others too, maybe not to such an extreme, but it's a natural part of Mewtwo's combo-finishing game, and is observable and expected in performance. If it's not a combo into it off the side, it sets up the kill given the combo finishes with a hard trajectory. Same idea with Lucas B-Air, F-Smash, etc. They don't Bowser F-Smash things, but they're Falco D-Smash/B-Air/D-Tilt to a lesser extent, etc, and just as good.

 

[jtm94]

"@jtm94 I mean, sometimes you only need a few solid kill moves, look at Fox. Kappa."
Bahah, yeah he only has a "few." such as upsmash, shine, nair, bair, sidesmash, downsmash, uair......

And I will say I underrated Lucas' bair, it is pretty strong I was only thinking of Spike. That is very true that pure KO moves does not make a character amazing, but I believe that in a game of knocking the opponent off of the stage, characters with strong moves have an advantage.

It is also how I believe that heavy characters are good in a game about not getting knocked off the stage. Just as with the KO move argument, there are tons of factors, but it is something else to think about.

 

[Deleted member]

I agree with you that Lucas is over-hyped. That said, I still think the character is formidable and I really like his flavor for what he ends up being when played well.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I don't think any character that has a throw that kills Charizard at 110% without question from the best ranged grab in the game has trouble killing.
illing.
illing.

 

[Nausicaa]

jtm, what's with the focus on kill-moves? Go watch Apex (the one everyone loves this month) and count how many 'kill moves' Pit kills Fox with off the side blast-zones in the finals.
Does F-Air count? Fox has pathetic quantities of kill moves compared to Lucas, but the ones he does have are reliable for it (U-Smash/Grabs), the other 'kill moves' are weak in comparison in vacuums and in play. You're basically saying Lucas has kill-moves beyond the uselessness of Fox if you apply your logic to it, but you're discussing it as if Lucas has trouble killing. It's really bizarre. lol

Kink, Fox can basically do that off his U-Throw U-Airs too, with the same concept (I'm just pointing out how neither of these characters has trouble 'killing' and your point is exactly why on a level).
Both Lucas and Fox can lead into those Grabs off almost any hit too, but Lucas actually has an easier time with that at higher % (the kill %) than Fox, despite everything from Shine > Grab or N-Air > U-Smash stuff flying around. Their neutral games are so fast it doesn't really matter given controlled resets are so easy, but those characters are funny like that.

Burnsy, that conditioning of seeing/hearing/etc a certain subjective perspective is pretty difficult to avoid, hence there's a 'meta-game' at all, a meta-game is 100% built upon the community's development with the game. (simple terms, repetition of a common opinion makes that opinion more common)
Certain individuals within that community can have a certain skewing of perspective for their reasons, and another for another, but there is a 'truth' somewhere in there, and just as there are those who can technically be 'way off the mark' in terms of accuracy, there are those who can be technically 'right on the mark' whether they stumbled upon it or worked to develop their perspective of it.
tl;dr
Even a meta-game, the current abilities of the collective players in the community, is 100% a subjective interpretation, or 'theory' of each individual's awareness when applied to the game with the effort and devotion the individual has committed.
Playing Smash is by a technicality, theorizing and developing ones ability to contemplate the surfacing theories.
That's pretty messed up...
AND AWESOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOME

 

[Burnsy]

I don't think any character that has a throw that kills Charizard at 110% without question from the best ranged grab in the game has trouble killing.
illing.
illing.

Doesn't Oli have a better ranged grab? Pretty sure his is of comparable (maybe even better?) range and it's definitely faster, even if just barely. I think he has a lot less endlag on his as well.

Also I'm certain that 110% figure does not hold up for many stages if you DI.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Straight vertical knockback makes DI almost irrelevant. Contrast to Fox's U-smash, which can be DI'd toward the corner, or contrast even more so to Charizard's own killing U-throw that sends at the abysmal Sakurai angle, making even more influence by DI. When the knockback is already at 90 degrees, making it send at 77 degrees isn't going to make much difference.

Correction on why exactly it doesn't work after a fact check:
act check:
act check:

Because the possible DI angles are not distributed equally, knockback angles within 17° of vertical or horizontal can be trajectory DI'd to a lesser degree, as no true correspondent perpendicular angle is available.
-smash wiki (http://www.ssbwiki.com/Directional_influence#Mechanics)

I wondered why it felt so hopeless as soon as Lucas grabbed a hold of someone, and this explains it pretty well.
iiwell.
iiwell.

 

[Nausicaa]

DI doesn't matter if you don't get hit, so no big deal... wait...

Oli has a sick grab. Lucas has some both start-up and end-lag on his Standing Grab, but only end-lag on his pivot and dash Grabs, but it's not like he can miss with it so it never comes into play in any factoring way. Like Yoshi's Dash-Grab and Pivot Grab, just do those and avoid the Standing Grab (conventional Pivot Grabs are a no-no for these 2), otherwise they're almost impossible to miss, everything else combos into them, and they lead to everything including themselves again.
As far as 'ranged Grabs' go, they're the 'shorter but faster' ones, and Oli kind of fits in that category, though his speed is made up with range and other various factors are there, at least he can Shield-Grab properly. Even that's still meh compared to non-ranged Grabs. XD


Edit: Since I've been working with a batch of characters, I'm officially not concerned with anything except them, as of now. So go ahead and feel relieved that I won't comment on anyone but those in my sig following this post unless requested upon in some form or as context for a point in relation to them.
MUHAHAHA bye tier-semantics-thread-goers that don't have anything to do with the cool characters.
Lucas and Fox suck.

 

[Justkallmekai]

Ivysaur is differently up there, he's really good in Project M almost OP to be honest.

 

[Vashimus]

Welp, guess it's time to nerf Ivy again guys.

 

[Nguz95]

Yo, Game and watch though. I can see why Dakpo is doing so well. He has some flaws, but the momentum you can get with him is incredible. Props to Dakpo for taking him as far as he can go.

 

[Mera Mera]

I don't think any character that has a throw that kills Charizard at 110% without question from the best ranged grab in the game has trouble killing.
illing.
illing.

To be fair, throws are weird in that the weight of the opponent doesn't modify the knockback growth, but rather the length of the throw animation. So really when you're talking about kill throws, the only relevant factor is fall speed (unless the kill throw is so fast that light characters can't DI in time, but I can't think of any throws that fit that description). Since Charizard is fairly floaty, he is susceptible to kill throws.

http://smashboards.com/threads/detailed-throws-techs-and-getups-frame-data.206469/
This thread is where I found out about how throws work. It is a useful post to read (though about Melee, not PM). It talks about tech frame data as well, and after combining some of this info with the info found here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/tech-chasing-fast-fallers-on-reaction.343054/#post-16290724
I had an epiphany. A lot of tech chasing is not reading the opponent, but reactionary. They are both good reads.

Doesn't Oli have a better ranged grab? Pretty sure his is of comparable (maybe even better?) range and it's definitely faster, even if just barely. I think he has a lot less endlag on his as well.

Also I'm certain that 110% figure does not hold up for many stages if you DI.

110% sounds about right, which should be less surprising knowing that knockback growth isn't modified by weight in the case of throws.

Also Olimar's grab range isn't as big as Marths, is slower depending on the distance he is from the person he grabs, and loses ties with hitboxes (unlike every other grab in the game) because the Pikmin is doing the grabing, rather than Olimar himself. In other words you hit someone when they grab you and they take damage but still grab you. You hit Olimar when he grabs you and you get away and send him flying. Lucas' grab is definitely better, but it does have more endlag then Marth/Shiek/Roy who also have good grab range.

Because the possible DI angles are not distributed equally, knockback angles within 17° of vertical or horizontal can be trajectory DI'd to a lesser degree, as no true correspondent perpendicular angle is available.
-smash wiki (http://www.ssbwiki.com/Directional_influence#Mechanics)

Holy **** I never knew that. Thanks for the info. :D
That explains a lot.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Straight vertical knockback makes DI almost irrelevant. Contrast to Fox's U-smash, which can be DI'd toward the corner, or contrast even more so to Charizard's own killing U-throw that sends at the abysmal Sakurai angle, making even more influence by DI. When the knockback is already at 90 degrees, making it send at 77 degrees isn't going to make much difference.

Correction on why exactly it doesn't work after a fact check:

Because the possible DI angles are not distributed equally, knockback angles within 17° of vertical or horizontal can be trajectory DI'd to a lesser degree, as no true correspondent perpendicular angle is available.
-smash wiki (http://www.ssbwiki.com/Directional_influence#Mechanics)

I wondered why it felt so hopeless as soon as Lucas grabbed a hold of someone, and this explains it pretty well.

whose idea was this
like I get why it happened, it's probably to simplify the inputs or programming for inputs of trying to get straight horizontal/vertical directions so that players wouldn't have issues trying to get those inputs to register properly
but if the controller can register each direction, then surely they could have made the game register all directions for at least DI
uuuuuugh this hurts the OCD

 

[SixSaw]

whose idea was this
like I get why it happened, it's probably to simplify the inputs or programming for inputs of trying to get straight horizontal/vertical directions so that players wouldn't have issues trying to get those inputs to register properly
but if the controller can register each direction, then surely they could have made the game register all directions for at least DI
uuuuuugh this hurts the OCD

I'd guess it has to do with straight horizontal or vertical knockback involving relations to the x or y axis of 0 or something. In any case I'd assume it's due to a limitation/quirk of whatever system is used to calculate trajectory rather than an intentional design decision (although we shouldn't underestimate Sakurai).

 

[Empyrean]

I just watched Neon vs. Oracle Lucas ditto. You guys just succeeded at discouraging me from ever maining him, congratulations. Goddamnit, even Fox can't apply that much pressure!

 

[jtm94]

I wasn't focusing on KO moves as the ONLY or CORRECT way to justify a characters' tier spot, but as another way to view them. It's nice thinking about characters in abstract ways instead of just being like... Pink Fresh does decent, so Lucas is decent and therefore better than the characters he beats, etc, etc.

Xanadu is really neat, but it isn't a perfect example of the characters, because they may not be played in the best way, or to their full potential. I love that they do that every week, but there are TONS of hidden players out there that don't attend tourneys that could potentially pull of way more than any of them the second they come out of hiding. Character develepmont actually happens quite fast, but it doesn't appear in tourneys until much after it has been developed.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Lucas CAN use other moves to kill,

I don't know why but when I read this, I read it as "Lucas has other moves to kill"

Which reminded me of this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lUI1XSMGyw

4:28

 

[Nguz95]

Xanadu provides a lens into a mid-level scene, which means we get to see the players develop both themselves and their characters relatively quickly. Pink Fresh, Map Mark, and Squeak have only been attending Xanadu since the summer, but we've seen all of them make big strides in their play. Likewise, we've also been able to see how they explored their respective characters and implemented what they've learned on a weekly basis. Because they have the benefit of Gimr and his streaming skills, their improvement has been made publicly available, meaning that it is prime material for analyzation.

The hidden players you reference are intriguing, but they are ultimately unreliable, as they only matter to the character's metagame once they get on Youtube. Also, I'm skeptical of players who don't attend tournaments at all, as tournament play is a completely different animal than the occasional smashfest. It's incredibly difficult to build a metagame by yourself, which is why I'd rather pay attention to the guys on stream at Xanadu than the people who don't manage to get their matches recorded. Visual aides play a huge role in how many people learn, and seeing someone else use a move a certain way can foster innovation within a community, as it gives others the opportunity to take someone else's discovery one step farther.

What I'm trying to say is, places like Xanadu are crucial to the development of PM's metagame regardless of the players' relative skill levels because they provide a public arena where players can show the world their discoveries and innovations. They are ultimately of far more value than the people who try to explain what they've discovered in writing instead of getting to a tournament and doing work.

 

[SixSaw]

I just watched Neon vs. Oracle Lucas ditto. You guys just succeeded at discouraging me from ever maining him, congratulations. Goddamnit, even Fox can't apply that much pressure!

http://youtu.be/TBG1njx3kLk?t=9m10s
Mother of god.

 

[SixSaw]

Xanadu provides a lens into a mid-level scene, which means we get to see the players develop both themselves and their characters relatively quickly. Pink Fresh, Map Mark, and Squeak have only been attending Xanadu since the summer, but we've seen all of them make big strides in their play. Likewise, we've also been able to see how they explored their respective characters and implemented what they've learned on a weekly basis. Because they have the benefit of Gimr and his streaming skills, their improvement has been made publicly available, meaning that it is prime material for analyzation.

The hidden players you reference are intriguing, but they are ultimately unreliable, as they only matter to the character's metagame once they get on Youtube. Also, I'm skeptical of players who don't attend tournaments at all, as tournament play is a completely different animal than the occasional smashfest. It's incredibly difficult to build a metagame by yourself, which is why I'd rather pay attention to the guys on stream at Xanadu than the people who don't manage to get their matches recorded. Visual aides play a huge role in how many people learn, and seeing someone else use a move a certain way can foster innovation within a community, as it gives others the opportunity to take someone else's discovery one step farther.

What I'm trying to say is, places like Xanadu are crucial to the development of PM's metagame regardless of the players' relative skill levels because they provide a public arena where players can show the world their discoveries and innovations. They are ultimately of far more value than the people who try to explain what they've discovered in writing instead of getting to a tournament and doing work.

None of that is unique to Xanadu though. There are other similar weekly streams that show off an overall higher level of play and yet get far, far less viewership. For instance, EXP Gaming Wavedash Wednesdays™ streamed live every Wednesday 7pm-1am CST @ http://www.twitch.tv/windycitysmash

 

[Rᴏb]

They really did a good job with Lucas... His tether is a bit safe, but damn everything else about the character looks so fun. That ditto makes me wanna pick him up... I can foresee Lucas being the next pocket character like Fox was in Melee.
The question is: will he dominate the metagame to an even remotely comparable extent? I have no idea, but I'm really excited to find out!

 

[Nguz95]

None of that is unique to Xanadu though. There are other similar weekly streams that show off an overall higher level of play and yet get far, far less viewership. For instance, EXP Gaming Wavedash Wednesdays™ streamed live every Wednesday 7pm-1am CST @ http://www.twitch.tv/windycitysmash

That's why I expanded my point at the end to encompass other places like Xanadu. I gave an anecdote from my own personal experience (anecdotal data isn't helpful, I know), and then tried to apply it to a greater point, which was that dudes who go to tourneys are more beneficial to the metagame than those who don't.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

They really did a good job with Lucas... His tether is a bit safe, but damn everything else about the character looks so fun. That ditto makes me wanna pick him up... I can foresee Lucas being the next pocket character like Fox was in Melee.
The question is: will he dominate the metagame to an even remotely comparable extent? I have no idea, but I'm really excited to find out!

Lucas takes a lot, haha. Having a pocket Lucas isn't doing him justice in my opinion.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Pink Fresh didn't develop anything from . He just did the same thing he does in brawl in PM. hasn't been changed in most regards except the fact that he can charge Usmash and Dacus (Both stupid in my opinion).

Xanadu is a horrible representation of looking for skill in terms of PM. MD/VA is full of mid level PM players. There are few exceptions of course, but I wouldn't qualify it as the end all for analyzing purposes. I also have no clue what Map Mark has done that's notable lmao.

As a side note: Nazo came to our region from AZ and got top 3 almost beating Jcaesar (One of our best).

In my region it goes like this (I may be missing one or two people in the PM/Melee categories):

• Brawl high level players: Me, Neo, Logic, ChuDat
  
• Melee high level players: ChuDat, Redd, Chillin, Nintendude, DoH, VisT, Cyrain
  
• 64 high level players: Nintendude, Clubba (I think he's from our region. Our 64 scene is sporadic)
• PM high level players: Pink Fresh, Junebug, Jcaesar, ChuDat, Boss, Redd, Chillin

 

[Redd]

>17th at apex in PM

WAT

Oh wait, that was you.

 

[Justkallmekai]

I bet Lucas and Ness will alo be up there cause the things they can do is just...Damn

 

[Seagull Joe]

>17th at apex in PM

WAT

Oh wait, that was you.

I can't remember everyone Austin! Fixed.

17th indeed

 

[Blank Mauser]

Anyone who thinks they can look to any one person/region for the "perfect example" of a character should probably wait a few years so they can laugh at their past selves for even having such a thought.

 

[Kink-Link5]

So has Hbox really traded off Jigglypuff for Olimar? The implications are... unsettling at the least.
atthe least.
atthe least.

 

[Paradoxium]

So has Hbox really traded off Jigglypuff for Olimar? The implications are... unsettling at the least.
atthe least.
atthe least.

I say good for Hungrybox, he gets so much **** for the way he plays and at least now people will give him the respect he deserves

 

[DMG]

Yeah, it implies he's enjoying Olimar more. That's awesome