Tier List Speculation

[the_irish_dude]

kirby top tier for dirty character

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/1xkl2s/the_dirtiest_stock_ever_taken_in_crew_battle/

 

[Shiny_Rayquaza]

Dont tell me you hang up kirby posters on your bedroom walls. Kirbies number 1 setback from keeping him getting developed is that very few people want to play him. The same applies for others like gdubs and sonic.

Just for the record I have a Kirby poster (or two) and a plushie in my room at the fraternity house I live in.

 

[Narsic]

After reading recent posts I just wanted to throw my opinion out there, as I see many have lol.

It seems a lot of people are caught between theory and tournament results, and even in the theory aspect people either focus too much on the pros of a character or everything terrible about said character. For example, in positive theory spacies with their shines are hands down the best characters in the game (Lucas included imo). On the negative side spacies can be combo'd and killed withe relative ease. They are combo bait to a majority if not the whole cast.

So what about tournament results? There is not an overload of tourney wins from spacies, does this mean they aren't the best? Mario didn't make top 8 at Apex so is he a bad character? Of course not, consistency form tournaments across every region help dictate which characters shine (no pun intended) more than others. There have been very few tournaments as this is a new game, so it needs time to develop.

In regards to development there is Melee. Fox, Falco, and a few other characters stay true to their Melee form in PM, so in theory these characters should have the same influence on the metagame as they did in Melee. However, this is NOT the case. Look at a strong region like DFW (Texas bias sorry), they have so many ways to dealing with space animals to make them not even that huge of a threat to the community there. PM's metagame does not revolve around shine how well you can deal with spacies. I don't know where PM is heading, but more than likely it is not going the Melee route.

So yes, I believe Fox and Falco are the two "best" characters in the game, but I know they will not be as dominant in PM as in Melee. No player is perfect, no one can waveshine everywhere and never get hit as Fox, and no one can consistently turn every hit against a spacie into a stock. They are glass cannons, if they mess up they will get punished hard, and if you mess up against them, good luck with that.

tl;dr: This isn't Melee, and none of this matters because tier lists turn people into whiners instead of addressing real issues like why I can't main Pichu.

 

[Player -0]

I agree with your first statement.

And while it may not be popular I stand by my statement that fox is easy to handle, though

i know fairly many of the melee vets to a high level, mid and low tiers included, but ill admit that i dont like the brawl newcomers as much and dont really play them. Im fairly capable though and am looking to place high at mlg evo and texas showdown.

Wizzrobe doesnt count at all since he quit sonic and pm after getting his op character adjusted(one of the few changes Non-buff that i agree with). Also hes highly overrated and outspoken because hes a little boy. Not aware of the other sonic players and sonics popularity in general because hes such an uncool character.

Wizzrobe hasn't quit Sonic or P:M, he picked him up in 2.1 with the intention of maining him because in brawl Sonic sucked (from Wizzrobe's Reddit). I doubt Wizzrobe is overrated after placing 5th in Apex 2014's SSB64. Sonic being "an uncool character" is an opinion.

You guys are making me so sad...how is bickering about nothing in particular going to make this game better than it already is? Can the smash community actually work together for once or are we destined to fracture and embarrass ourselves in front of all other fans of fighting games?

Tune in 4 years from now to find out

Not cliffhangers D:

Just for the record I have a Kirby poster (or two) and a plushie in my room at the fraternity house I live in.

Bring the plush to tournaments and put him on the TV when you battle!

Edit:

After reading recent posts I just wanted to throw my opinion out there, as I see many have lol.

It seems a lot of people are caught between theory and tournament results, and even in the theory aspect people either focus too much on the pros of a character or everything terrible about said character. For example, in positive theory spacies with their shines are hands down the best characters in the game (Lucas included imo). On the negative side spacies can be combo'd and killed withe relative ease. They are combo bait to a majority if not the whole cast.

So what about tournament results? There is not an overload of tourney wins from spacies, does this mean they aren't the best? Mario didn't make top 8 at Apex so is he a bad character? Of course not, consistency form tournaments across every region help dictate which characters shine (no pun intended) more than others. There have been very few tournaments as this is a new game, so it needs time to develop.

In regards to development there is Melee. Fox, Falco, and a few other characters stay true to their Melee form in PM, so in theory these characters should have the same influence on the metagame as they did in Melee. However, this is NOT the case. Look at a strong region like DFW (Texas bias sorry), they have so many ways to dealing with space animals to make them not even that huge of a threat to the community there. PM's metagame does not revolve around shine how well you can deal with spacies. I don't know where PM is heading, but more than likely it is not going the Melee route.

So yes, I believe Fox and Falco are the two "best" characters in the game, but I know they will not be as dominant in PM as in Melee. No player is perfect, no one can waveshine everywhere and never get hit as Fox, and no one can consistently turn every hit against a spacie into a stock. They are glass cannons, if they mess up they will get punished hard, and if you mess up against them, good luck with that.

tl;dr: This isn't Melee, and none of this matters because tier lists turn people into whiners instead of addressing real issues like why I can't main Pichu.

I can't main Pichu.

I can't main Pichu.

BELIEVE!

 

[OmegaObi-wan144]

Wizzrobe hasn't quit Sonic or P:M, he picked him up in 2.1 with the intention of maining him because in brawl Sonic sucked (from Wizzrobe's Reddit). I doubt Wizzrobe is overrated after placing 5th in Apex 2014's SSB64. Sonic being "an uncool character" is an opinion.


Not cliffhangers D:


Bring the plush to tournaments and put him on the TV when you battle!

Edit:


BELIEVE!

Nah, wizzrobe is overrated. If he was truly good he wouldve challenged me to a MM by now

 

[Cassio]

for the people finishing high most have obviously put a pretty significant amount of time into it.

For the time being this isnt true, but as I explained earlier this could be because the game is new.

Also there is a chart floating somewhere on the amount of entrants each game had for just their game. I think it was something like 64 - 90, PM - 110, Brawl - 240, Melee - 350. I also think PM was the only game that had more entrants signing up for multiple games than just the one. That being said I dont think its a bad thing that people dedicated to other games are willing to try it out.

 

[Nguz95]

I'm beginning to see shades of T_E here. Maybe we've all been fooled by yet another alt.

 

[Shiny_Rayquaza]

Bring the plush to tournaments and put him on the TV when you battle!

The only problem is that I miss 100% of the Smash tournaments put on at school since I've had to travel for swim team during them all. When people are up at the house I usually have a good time kicking some ass in friendlies though; the plushie does make an appearance at times though.

In response to the topic at hand that spacies are slowly (very slowly) on their way down as other characters are being pushed up (albeit at inconsistent rates). I feel like it's too early for the current build of P:M to really say whether the newest changes really push the game in this direction but in time as people grasp some of the changes we may see spacies as slightly less dominant.

That and it's really hard to use new toys against incredibly well established characters and strategies that work really god damn well.

 

[Player -0]

The only problem is that I miss 100% of the Smash tournaments put on at school since I've had to travel for swim team during them all. When people are up at the house I usually have a good time kicking some *** in friendlies though; the plushie does make an appearance at times though.

In response to the topic at hand that spacies are slowly (very slowly) on their way down as other characters are being pushed up (albeit at inconsistent rates). I feel like it's too early for the current build of P:M to really say whether the newest changes really push the game in this direction but in time as people grasp some of the changes we may see spacies as slightly less dominant.

That and it's really hard to use new toys against incredibly well established characters and strategies that work really god damn well.

You have to make a local meme like, "THE KIRBY IS OUT." You could probably see if you can work with the people that set up the tournaments and do one you can get to.

 

[DMG]

Look at a strong region like DFW (Texas bias sorry), they have so many ways to dealing with space animals to make them not even that huge of a threat to the community there. PM's metagame does not revolve around shine how well you can deal with spacies.

That's not the best area to use. We (Texas) don't have many actual Spacie players in PM to begin with. In fact I'd probably be considered the best/second best Fox for DFW (Disafter plays more and is also up there), and I hardly consider him my main + don't travel and play everyone frequently. Our top players are really good, I'm not saying Spacies should mow any of them down. But we really are very VERY light on Spacies. Awestin, Dakpo, Sethlon, and Oracle are not killing our Spacie "population", because that population barely exists to begin with for them to kill in bracket.

With that said, it's very nice to live in a region where Fox Falco aren't 1/3rd of bracket matches or more.

 

[Paradoxium]

Pm player: You only beat me because you used Fox/Falco!

Melee player: You only beat me because you used (insert any redesigned character here)!

 

[Cassio]

The problem for now, at least as far as Im aware, Texas doesnt have a strong melee scene. Most good spacies are melee > PM players. I actually think SoCal has the best PM players if only because of the high potency of top level smash players.

 

[PhantasyStar]

This thread is not going anywhere...

 

[OmegaObi-wan144]

That's not the best area to use. We (Texas) don't have many actual Spacie players in PM to begin with. In fact I'd probably be considered the best/second best Fox for DFW (Disafter plays more and is also up there), and I hardly consider him my main + don't travel and play everyone frequently. Our top players are really good, I'm not saying Spacies should mow any of them down. But we really are very VERY light on Spacies. Awestin, Dakpo, Sethlon, and Oracle are not killing our Spacie "population", because that population barely exists to begin with for them to kill in bracket.

With that said, it's very nice to live in a region where Fox Falco aren't 1/3rd of bracket matches or more.

Are you talking about pm or texas in general? Because i havent noticed too many spacy players at the smashfests ive gone to (melee) and id actually rather face a tiny bit more fox+falco than the sheiks and falcons that are pretty regular where I live (marth is ok). No idea where the dsw region is in texas and which players in the texas region are the most capable however.

 

[DMG]

The problem for now, at least as far as Im aware, Texas doesnt have a strong melee scene. I actually think SoCal has the best PM players if only because of the high potency of top level smash players.

You've been biased for SoCal in every Smash game! Cali has some strong players though obv.

 

[OmegaObi-wan144]

Pm player: You only beat me because you used Fox/Falco!

Melee player: You only beat me because you used (insert any redesigned character here)!

In the end nobody is good

 

[OmegaObi-wan144]

The problem for now, at least as far as Im aware, Texas doesnt have a strong melee scene. Most good spacies are melee > PM players. I actually think SoCal has the best PM players if only because of the high potency of top level smash players.

Wtf texas is legit get out of here. (Unless you mean pm exclusively to which I reply "lol socal has a pm community?")

 

[Narsic]

That's not the best area to use. We (Texas) don't have many actual Spacie players in PM to begin with. In fact I'd probably be considered the best/second best Fox for DFW (Disafter plays more and is also up there), and I hardly consider him my main + don't travel and play everyone frequently. Our top players are really good, I'm not saying Spacies should mow any of them down. But we really are very VERY light on Spacies. Awestin, Dakpo, Sethlon, and Oracle are not killing our Spacie "population", because that population barely exists to begin with for them to kill in bracket.

With that said, it's very nice to live in a region where Fox Falco aren't 1/3rd of bracket matches or more.

I understand your point, you're right, there is a very small spacie population in DFW, but the reason there are few spacies in the region is why I brought it up. In the theory world spacies would be everywhere, Texas tends to stick to variety over tier whoring

 

[Cassio]

You've been biased for SoCal in every Smash game!

rofl socal too good! Yeah Im just sorta tossing that out there for no reason, although its hard not to be when the melee pros around here randomly enter PM tournaments and do very well.

And yeah Omega SoCal took 2 of the top 8 at Apex. I dont know Texas' melee scene or the good spacies there tbh, my perspective comes from socal spacies.

 

[Paradoxium]

In the end nobody is good

That was my whole point. Everyone just loves slopping the other side into a great big ball of stereotype when they themselves fit the bill as well. This is what happens when we bring Space animals into the equation...

As for me i don't care what happens to the Spacies, whether they get buffed or nerfed doesn't matter to me. I don't play as them and I have no trouble playing against them. With pikachu all i really have to do is gimp them, which is really fun

 

[OmegaObi-wan144]

That was my whole point. Everyone just loves slopping the other side into a great big ball of stereotype when they themselves fit the bill as well. This is what happens when we bring Space animals into the equation...

As for me i don't care what happens to the Spacies, whether they get buffed or nerfed doesn't matter to me. I don't play as them and I have no trouble playing against them. With pikachu all i really have to do is gimp them, which is really fun

At least im good, cheer for me and all things good at mlg and evo

 

[Paradoxium]

Someone who has Dolphin Netplay please play me right now, i wanna bop someone with Pikachu

 

[XXXX1000]

I'm not trying to discourage discussion, and I'm sure not trying to "bash" or condescend. I don't think saying someone is complaining is a bad thing - in League of Legends, people currently complain about Kassadin and that's totally fair. LoL contains both character bans and first picks for no mirror matches, which means that both teams can't just abuse the same strategy, and Kassadin's strength has been something that has evolved over a long period of time, combining buffs to him and nerfs to competitors.

But PM is in an entirely separate stage of development, and the first response to something should not be that it is "too strong". Point out that Fox and Falco are STRONG, but don't let that discourage you from trying to find a way to beat them. Play your character, develop your game, and see where that takes you. The PM team has already shown that they're not terribly heavy-handed when it comes to changes (wtf no ganon buffs?!) so let's not overreact and call for the end of Fox/Falco domination before we determine that they're even the actual top tier.

 

[OmegaObi-wan144]

I'm not trying to discourage discussion, and I'm sure not trying to "bash" or condescend. I don't think saying someone is complaining is a bad thing - in League of Legends, people currently complain about Kassadin and that's totally fair. LoL contains both character bans and first picks for no mirror matches, which means that both teams can't just abuse the same strategy, and Kassadin's strength has been something that has evolved over a long period of time, combining buffs to him and nerfs to competitors.

But PM is in an entirely separate stage of development, and the first response to something should not be that it is "too strong". Point out that Fox and Falco are STRONG, but don't let that discourage you from trying to find a way to beat them. Play your character, develop your game, and see where that takes you. The PM team has already shown that they're not terribly heavy-handed when it comes to changes (wtf no ganon buffs?!) so let's not overreact and call for the end of Fox/Falco domination before we determine that they're even the actual top tier.

No league of legends sucks keep that godforsaken game out of my precious smashboards

 

[DrinkingFood]

Someone who has Dolphin Netplay please play me right now, i wanna bop someone with Pikachu

I'll play you, join the chat and I'll get you my code once I get on my other comp

 

[Nguz95]

The rivalry forming. Maybe some day you two will be able to play in real life.

 

[Paradoxium]

The rivalry forming. Maybe some day you two will be able to play in real life.

I've only beaten him once lol, but i get closer every time

Real talk though, his Rob is as good as the food he drinks

 

[metroid1117]

Semi-related discussion that some of you guys might be interested in - G$, Alan, and Armada on whether it's easier to play Spacies or non-Spacies in Melee (not PM).

 

[Problem2]

The Melee scene in Dallas/FortWorth, TX has exploded quite recently. Right now, we don't have an elite player, but if these numbers keep up, the power of rivalries will propel the best to be national threats. Imo.

 

[Pseudomaniac]

I'd personally be really interested in seeing where everyone thinks the new high tiers (Mario, Wolf, Pit, Meta Knight, Wario, Diddy Kong, Snake, maybe Link and Lucas) fit in among the old Melee high tiers (Fox, Falco, Shiek, Marth, Peach, Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers, Jigglypuff). Mostly, I'd like to see some matchup discussion. People keep saying that Falcon and Jiggly have fallen due to new characters, but who exactly is beating them out? Also, presumably, in order to be the high tier threats most consider these characters to be, I would assume they would have to perform well against the Melee old guard. So I say we figure out why these characters seem so good and why they're performing so well and compare it to a baseline we're all familiar with; the Melee old guard.

 

[Sashimi]

I'd personally be really interested in seeing where everyone thinks the new high tiers (Mario, Wolf, Pit, Meta Knight, Wario, Diddy Kong, Snake, maybe Link and Lucas) fit in among the old Melee high tiers (Fox, Falco, Shiek, Marth, Peach, Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers, Jigglypuff). Mostly, I'd like to see some matchup discussion. People keep saying that Falcon and Jiggly have fallen due to new characters, but who exactly is beating them out? Also, presumably, in order to be the high tier threats most consider these characters to be, I would assume they would have to perform well against the Melee old guard. So I say we figure out why these characters seem so good and why they're performing so well and compare it to a baseline we're all familiar with; the Melee old guard.

Can't speak for the other buffed characters, but I can say that Yoshi vs Falcon is much easier than it was in Melee. I'd argue at least 6:4 Yoshi.

 

[Ogopogo]

Characters like kirby are hard to develop because very few people want to play them, either due to his really unique playstyle or the fact that kirby is somewhat uncool.

'scuse me, wHAT

 

[Sashimi]

I don't know how you can get any cooler than this:

Spoiler

 

[Narsic]

I'd personally be really interested in seeing where everyone thinks the new high tiers (Mario, Wolf, Pit, Meta Knight, Wario, Diddy Kong, Snake, maybe Link and Lucas) fit in among the old Melee high tiers (Fox, Falco, Shiek, Marth, Peach, Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers, Jigglypuff). Mostly, I'd like to see some matchup discussion. People keep saying that Falcon and Jiggly have fallen due to new characters, but who exactly is beating them out? Also, presumably, in order to be the high tier threats most consider these characters to be, I would assume they would have to perform well against the Melee old guard. So I say we figure out why these characters seem so good and why they're performing so well and compare it to a baseline we're all familiar with; the Melee old guard.

Mario seems like a character that will fall off as the game develops, I mean he'll still be a strong character but when people really learn how to play against him it'll be hard for him to make it far in tournaments. Mario is pretty much fully fundamental based, only moves that make him unique and so good is cape and fireballs, but what do I know, change my opinion

 

[woundedust]

You guys are making me so sad...how is bickering about nothing in particular going to make this game better than it already is? Can the smash community actually work together for once or are we destined to fracture and embarrass ourselves in front of all other fans of fighting games?

Tune in 4 years from now to find out

The year is 20XX


we still bicker over a boomerang

 

[woundedust]

The problem is that spacies arepretty much just ported from melee. People know how to play match ups, do silly spacie stuff, and this knowledge carries over from games. The characters that have received buffs are mostly under explored in terms of movement options, strengths, weaknesses, potential, etc. take a look at armada & Pit. He pretty much revolutionized pits meta already. We cannot make proper judgement on MU's and tier lists until a metagame is properly established, tournament results prove true, and characters are properly explored.

 

[jtm94]

Mario is the truth, the man lacks bad MUs.
Swords may be only counter, super solid imo.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Super Leftrightleft Bros. is the unfortunate truth.

 

[Strong Badam]

Mario is the truth, the man lacks bad MUs.
Swords may be only counter, super solid imo.

mario definitely has bad MUs lol

 

[Plum]

The problem is that spacies arepretty much just ported from melee. People know how to play match ups, do silly spacie stuff, and this knowledge carries over from games. The characters that have received buffs are mostly under explored in terms of movement options, strengths, weaknesses, potential, etc. take a look at armada & Pit. He pretty much revolutionized pits meta already. We cannot make proper judgement on MU's and tier lists until a metagame is properly established, tournament results prove true, and characters are properly explored.

uh...
yeah we can
you act like we can't just change a tier list or how we play individual matchups as the metagame continues to develop
spoiler alert
we can

a tier list reflects the metagame that surrounds it at the time of creation
so right now some characters may be underdeveloped
and the tier list would reflect that
if it's true that they are better then we think currently, future lists would reflect our greater understanding

If you go back in time to 2008 Brawl, where they don't even have characters like Ice Climbers, Olimar and Diddy in the top 10 let alone characters like G&W and DDD being considered top 5, it's not right to just say they were wrong. Rather, you accept that it was right at the time of the 2008 metagame, but that the metagame has since evolved to a point where it may no longer be true.