Tier List Speculation

[DMG]

I won't rest easy until Pichu is back in the game

Actually I will rest easy. Seriously, what baddie would want Pichu back?

Definition of Auto Combo: Donkey Kong

 

[Rᴏb]

Agreed with most of your post, but not really this part... In many cases, I think these are reasonable arguments.
At the early stages of nearly every fighting game, one particular character or tactic gets the "cheap" or "broken" label because (generally) of it's relative ease in use and high priority. After the intro period, though, people usually figure out that the character/tactic is pretty easily beatable.

I understand that, but in the Spacies' case people have had years to figure out tactics to deal with the bull**** they can pull off. Don't you think it has gotten to the point where the problem lies within the characters? This is why "Learn the matchup" doesn't work for this case.

So if the players had the power to just insta-nerf characters in the early days of the game, they would essentially be nerfing tactics that aren't all that great once the metagame gets better (and nerfing the characters that use them to the point of killing all character support), which is essentially what we are scared of happening with PM.

The thing is, people aren't simply asking for nerfs. In Zelda's case, there are things fundamentally wrong with her character that leads to gameplay that is drawn out and stale. She isn't OP and nobody says she is, but people still like to respond "you just don't know how to beat her" when that really isn't the case. I'd prefer a thought out response much rather than a cop out, is basically what I'm getting at.

 

[DMG]

I'm going to make my own Smash game

It will revolve around CC and grabbing

All other options lose

I really like to grab

 

[woundedust]

I'm going to make my own Smash game

It will revolve around CC and grabbing

All other options lose

I really like to grab

dont forget boomerangs with 7 hit boxes

 

[Terotrous]

Forgive me for being a noob, but I'm not really seeing where the concern about Project M not being popular enough is coming from. Didn't it get more entries than Brawl at Apex? That's pretty amazing for a fanwork.

At any rate, regarding making the game like Melee, I feel that the objective should always be to make Project M the best game it can possibly be. PM shouldn't be afraid to deviate from Melee to some extent if it makes the game better, ie, retaining Ganondorf's new side B from Brawl. My only real beef with PM so far has been reverting a couple smash attacks to their Melee forms (ie, Falco FSmash, Ganondorf USmash) seemingly for no reason other than because Melee did it that way.

 

[The_Altrox]

^ Brawl attendance has been falling in general though, iirc.

 

[Bleck]

"Learn the matchup" "git gud" etc. Are not valid arguments btw.

Oh, I agree.

 

[Delta-cod]

Project:M entrants are also not an exclusive group from Brawl entrants. There are plenty of Brawl players who also play PM, and there are also Melee players who play PM. It's nice that it's getting large entrants overall, but I'd be hesitant to say it has more unique entrants than Brawl does without actually looking into the player list.

 

[Terotrous]

Project:M entrants are also not an exclusive group from Brawl entrants. There are plenty of Brawl players who also play PM, and there are also Melee players who play PM. It's nice that it's getting large entrants overall, but I'd be hesitant to say it has more unique entrants than Brawl does without actually looking into the player list.

I'm not sure I see how you could have more entrants total but fewer unique entrants. You can't enter the same tournament twice.

Unless you meant "I want to know if the people who only entered PM is bigger than the number of people who only entered Brawl", but I'm not convinced that such a statistic is really that important. Of course there'll be a lot of overlap between the fanbases of the various smash games. Project M has convinced a lot of players (including top players of Melee and Brawl) that it's worth dedicating enough time to get good at the game, I would say that's a mark of success.

 

[Delta-cod]

That's what I meant. And on that note, I still think that your last statement, that a lot of players have been convinced that it's a game worth dedicating time to, can't be judged by entrants either. All the entrants list tells you is how many people entered, not if they actually care. Maybe they entered it for funsies. As has also been stated, top/high levels of Brawl/Melee have been entering and placing decently without investing much time either. You can't say for certain that there are a lot of entrants that enter it for more than a fun diversion.

 

[Terotrous]

As has also been stated, top/high levels of Brawl/Melee have been entering and placing decently without investing much time either. You can't say for certain that there are a lot of entrants that enter it for more than a fun diversion.

Well we can't tell for people who got knocked out early, but for the people finishing high most have obviously put a pretty significant amount of time into it, because they're doing stuff you can't do in Melee or Brawl. Mew2King's Mewtwo, JCaesar's Rob, MapMark's Sonic, and Armada's Pit are all good examples of this.

 

[guedes the brawler]

I looove magnet but it only does so much. It gives him interesting mobility options, more combo paths, help with his recovery etc. etc. but it's not enough to cover up his flaws. It's kinda slow ( comes out on frame 8 not jc'able until frame 11) and only does 3-4% damage whereas Lucas' comes out on frame 5, jc'able at 8 and does 8+%

wow, that really isn't very fair for Ness.

 

[Player -0]

Ness' "shine" goes all the way around, unlike Lucas'. I kind of want Ness' shine to be buffed just because having characters with shines is LOL

 

[Bryonato]

Magnet goes all the way around, yes, but even considering that, it doesn't match up to the utility of Lucas' esp. considering how it fits in with Lucas' kit.


All this said I really love magnet a lot and incorporate it a lot into my play in a variety of ways.

Ness' "shine" goes all the way around, unlike Lucas'. I kind of want Ness' shine to be buffed just because having characters with shines is LOL

There have been a few ideas thrown around by NZA and I for how to tweak/buff it a slight bit. I certainly *don't* want it to be frame 1 or some **** lol.

 

[Kokomaniac]

Yeah I use magnet as ness as much as any other move, I just think it should do more damage that's it lol

 

[Nausicaa]

Switch the PK-kid F-Tilts and call it a day then.


Back to Tier List discussion...

I'm under the current impression that neither of these characters will be able to win a larger-scale tournament without major hurdles that likely will deem switching off them necessary.
Any thoughts on other characters who would fall distinctly into this category, or thoughts on characters in here that probably don't fit?
Maybe GW/ROB/Char/Oli have what it takes, if I were to guess that 1 or more could pull through from this list.
Otherwise, any agreements/thoughts/comments/disagreements/ideas around this batch?

Game & Watch
ROB
Jigglypuff
Charizard
Bowser
Ganondorf
Ness
Zelda
Olimar
Squirtle

F (permanent Ivan Ooze Tier)
Ice Climbers (2 hammers make a whole)

Full list if wanted.

DOODOODOOZE N/A

 

[Kokomaniac]

Stop putting ness at the bottom

 

[Nazo]

Stop putting ness at the bottom

Started...

 

[Guilu]

Why is Charizard so low ? He has excellent range, good aerial play, tech chases.. good bases in general. Lacks fast moves, but so do others that aren't on this list.

 

[XXXX1000]

Holy damn the amount of complaining in here has actually caused me to make an account.

People have become too used to patches solving their problems for them. Patching can be incredible for a game, and there are an incredible number of upsides to it, but it has created a community of players who no longer attempt to improve themselves, or to overcome an obstacle: instead, it becomes about what's "too strong" or "too weak". What most of you don't realize is that "strong" and "weak" are COMPLETELY subjective: something that was strong yesterday could be seen as weak tomorrow.

Tier lists are not final. They never are. They're meant to grow. Most importantly, they are NOT meant to be taken as fact. There are always surprises in every game, and because players don't know everything, there's always room for upsets. This has been proven time and time and time again in fighting games, but people never seem to remember. Hell, it's been proven in the Smash community itself and people don't remember!

In the very beginning of a game's life cycle (and this is absolutely the beginning of PM's life cycle), there's always misconceptions about character strength. When Marvel vs Capcom 2 first gained popularity, Iceman was considered a very strong character because of the chip damage he could put out with ice beam. When Marvel vs Capcom 3 first came out, Justin Wong (the most accomplished MvC2 player in history) decried how OP Sentinel was and actually vowed to stop playing the game after about a week (in the following months he won competitions with teams comprised of half the cast). Look at how the first tier lists of Smash games have stacked up compared to recent ones: http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_NTSC_tier_lists - Look at the days when Melee Captain Falcon was not even in the top 50% of characters! Sheik was the "best" character in Melee for over four years! In the first 3-5 months of Brawl, Snake was above MK, but later on MK was actually BANNED from some tournaments! That's (almost) unprecedented!

Hell, look at Apex 2014 - a Yoshi player almost made Top 8. Yoshi, a character many people have written off as worthless. This raises the question: Can every one of aMSa's victories be written off as his enemies not knowing the Yoshi matchup? If Yoshi is so bad, at what point do tiers not matter anymore? Are tiers unimportant up until 9th place? Is it possible that perhaps Yoshi is stronger than people think? Also at Apex 2014, Sanford Kelly won SSF4 with Oni, a character widely regarded by the community as middle-of-the-road. In 2010, Justin Wong famously called Adon "one of the worst" in the game before GamerBee took top 8 at EVO, revolutionizing Adon play from there on. In UMvC3, Zero had always been considered good by the community, a character that had lots of potential, but was never really picked up and put to good use until Flocker won Evo 2013.

I love all the people whining about spacies. Or whatever you're whining about. Love it. Imagine if a competitive fighting game was constantly changed based on community input just a few months after "release" (hint: NRS did this exact thing with Mortal Kombat and practically killed their own game). Why not try and find tech for the dozens of characters that have gotten improvements in PM? What about the SEVEN characters that 3.0 added? Why not try and develop a metagame and learn how to deal with the problems? If you stop and think about it, YOU are part of the problem! Instead of trying to find something, some character or strategy or technique to beat what you think is too strong, you're resigning yourself to defeat. Maybe if you had spent that time learning how to play Yoshi you'd have learned how to beat it on your own.

 

[Bleck]

Holy damn the amount of complaining

Skipped the rest of the post. Maybe try not being condescending, next time.

 

[OmegaObi-wan144]

Skipped the rest of the post. Maybe try not being condescending, next time.

Stop crying and read the rest of his post whiner baby

 

[Bleck]

Stop crying and read the rest of his post whiner baby

No?

 

[Bryonato]

Switch the PK-kid F-Tilts and call it a day then.


Back to Tier List discussion...

I'm under the current impression that neither of these characters will be able to win a larger-scale tournament without major hurdles that likely will deem switching off them necessary.
Any thoughts on other characters who would fall distinctly into this category, or thoughts on characters in here that probably don't fit?
Maybe GW/ROB/Char/Oli have what it takes, if I were to guess that 1 or more could pull through from this list.
Otherwise, any agreements/thoughts/comments/disagreements/ideas around this batch?

Game & Watch
ROB
Jigglypuff
Charizard
Bowser
Ganondorf
Ness
Zelda
Olimar
Squirtle

F (permanent Ivan Ooze Tier)
Ice Climbers (2 hammers make a whole)

DOODOODOOZE N/A

I can say I agree with that whole list bar maybe Puff and ROB. I have faith in players like HBOX/Oracle. Olimar I'll agree with for now but remain skeptical, especially seeing what SS is doing with him down in AZ. Still not sure how to place that character.

 

[Pseudomaniac]

Skipped the rest of the post. Maybe try not being condescending, next time.

He's got a point though, and he's really just being factual not condescending. It's way too early in Project M's metagame to be making accurate judgement calls on balance issues that need to be fixed. Give it a year or two or three when people have played the game for a while and aren't just theorysmashing or judging on minimal experience. Then maybe some changes would be warranted.

Aside from that, this is the tier list speculation thread, not the tell the PMBR what to do thread. How about we go back to speculating where the characters as they are lie on the tier list and what their matchups are like rather than trying to fix problems that might or might not be there?

And Omega, stop it. Name calling doesn't do anything but reflect poorly on you and the PM community.

 

[Player -0]

Dat Rant dough

I agree, people tend to overlook how tier lists are made and how characters grow. M2K and I'm sure many other players believe the metagame for many characters are underdeveloped and can be better.

The problem is that no one wants to pick up unknown characters and instead flock to the already established as good ones. This causes a giant rift, especially in Project M because many characters have tools but aren't played by anyone, causing people to think the character is bad.



I think the biggest problem with your post is that you started off wrong and bashed first then reasoned. You should leave bashing until the end and keep it minimal if possible.

 

[Bleck]

He's got a point though, and he's really just being factual not condescending. It's way too early in Project M's metagame to be making accurate judgement calls on balance issues that need to be fixed.

He's not being 'factual' because there isn't 'factually' an objective amount of time through which a metagame should develop before balance changes occur.

Give it a year or two or three when people have played the game for a while and aren't just theorysmashing or judging on minimal experience. Then maybe some changes would be warranted.

The argument you're making here essentially still boils down to "get better, scrub". If somebody makes an argument for why they think something is broken or overpowered, saying that there is hypothetically a way to deal with that thing isn't a reasonable response. I disagree with the idea that people's arguments about balance issues can or should be dismissed via faith-based arguments.

 

[OmegaObi-wan144]

I agree, people tend to overlook how tier lists are made and how characters grow. M2K and I'm sure many other players believe the metagame for many characters are underdeveloped and can be better.

The problem is that no one wants to pick up unknown characters and instead flock to the already established as good ones. This causes a giant rift, especially in Project M because many characters have tools but aren't played by anyone, causing people to think the character is bad.



I think the biggest problem with your post is that you started off wrong and bashed first then reasoned. You should leave bashing until the end and keep it minimal if possible.

Characters like kirby are hard to develop because very few people want to play them, either due to his really unique playstyle or the fact that kirby is somewhat uncool. However if you guys are wanting to see high level kirby action then feel free to delegate me as the king of kirbies so that i can expand his metagame.

 

[Bleck]

Characters like kirby are hard to develop because... kirby is somewhat uncool.

Oh.

 

[OmegaObi-wan144]

He's not being 'factual' because there isn't 'factually' an objective amount of time through which a metagame should develop before balance changes occur.



The argument you're making here essentially still boils down to "get better, scrub". If somebody makes an argument for why they think something is broken or overpowered, saying that there is hypothetically a way to deal with that thing isn't a reasonable response. I disagree with the idea that people's arguments about balance issues can or should be dismissed via faith-based arguments.

Im fairly certain that the pm community has been spoiled with the easy access to character tweaks. Ive played with nearly every character and none are too domineering or centralizing in the metagame. The fact that you would go as low as to say that fox is overpowered despite the fact that in melee he is very easily dealth with by all players, just goes to show that you indeed are in need of some serious attitude adjustments(in regards to your competitive mindset) and mu knowledge. Getting better and learning the mu are the only correct answers currently in this stage of the build.

 

[Player -0]

The phrase "git betur skrub...."

Honestly I think it can go two ways, it can be used as an excuse or just a way to tell someone that you're not instantly going to just be GOOD. The problem is discerning which is being used at that moment.

The person with the problem should ask around with how to deal with the "broken" aspect and then compile that information and retry. If after doing this the person with a problem with the "broken" aspect should re-evaluate whether the "broken" thing is actually broken. If he/she thinks so still then they should re-compile all the new information and then bring it to attention again.


Stuff like this is just hard to choose.
_________________________________

Im fairly certain that the pm community has been spoiled with the easy access to character tweaks. Ive played with nearly every character and none are too domineering or centralizing in the metagame. The fact that you would go as low as to say that fox is overpowered despite the fact that in melee he is very easily dealth with by all players, just goes to show that you indeed are in need of some serious attitude adjustments(in regards to your competitive mindset) and mu knowledge. Getting better and learning the mu are the only correct answers currently in this stage of the build.

Fox is not "very easily dealt with by all players." They may know the MU as it's popular and be able to punish and play correctly but even with that it's still difficult.

 

[OmegaObi-wan144]

Oh.

Dont tell me you hang up kirby posters on your bedroom walls. Kirbies number 1 setback from keeping him getting developed is that very few people want to play him. The same applies for others like gdubs and sonic.

 

[Kokomaniac]

A game MUST be given time to develop before making anything more than minor number tweaks. To take a probably weak example, look at league of legends; champions are overbuffed and overnerfed into top tier or **** tier status (respectively) on a near weekly basis. Is this healthy for game development? I don't think so, as balance is pretty hard to come by, so much of the cast falls in and out of usefulness. Also, many characters develop in the certain metagames to be strong, with literally no changes done to them directly. Moreover, smash seems to me to be a game where matchups are much less linear, where certain playstyles and reliance on certain moves in some matchups makes them a lot more balanced and accessible than they seemed before.

My point is basically that without more time and more development, we simply cannot be throwing around ideas to nerf random characters just because we can. People need time to learn what counters what in respect to their main characters matchups; then, when we deem a character to have a tool that is generally too detrimental in too many matchups to the fairness of said matchups, we can nerf that tool. So maybe we should attempt to make an actual tier list and matchup spread based on collaboration and not name calling?

 

[Pseudomaniac]

He's not being 'factual' because there isn't 'factually' an objective amount of time through which a metagame should develop before balance changes occur.



The argument you're making here essentially still boils down to "get better, scrub". If somebody makes an argument for why they think something is broken or overpowered, saying that there is hypothetically a way to deal with that thing isn't a reasonable response. I disagree with the idea that people's arguments about balance issues can or should be dismissed via faith-based arguments.

I was saying "factual" in reference to him saying that people are whining.

And you're putting words in my mouth to change my tone. Yes, you should get better. I should get better. Everyone should get better. The perfect Smash player hasn't emerged yet, and if he\she had, it would be someone like Mango or M2K, not scrubs like us. Until then, everyone has room for improvement. And I'm not dismissing the idea that there could be balance problems in the game at all. I'm saying we should wait to see if the "problems" are actual problems or simply people being unfamiliar with the metagame. I'm against faith-based arguments; I think the PMBR needs time to get enough evidence of a problem outside some theorysmashing and player complaints before addressing it. If it adversely affects the tournament situation for an extended (multiple year) period of time, then yes the issue should be addressed in a patch. But it's a waste of time to argue about things like Link's boomerang or Fox\Meta Knight in general before we have a large bank of evidence and a metagame that's settled down a bit.

I personally have a suspicion that Fox is still slightly overpowered, but I acknowledge that I could be wrong, especially since Fox isn't overwhelmingly dominating tournaments like a truly OP character would. I think that some more time and player experience is needed to judge whether or not Fox is in need of nerfs. When that time has come, if Fox is sweeping tournaments, then I'll complain. Until then, I think trying to figure out the current metagame so it'll stabilize sooner is a more fruitful endeavor.

 

[Player -0]

Im fairly certain that the pm community has been spoiled with the easy access to character tweaks. Ive played with nearly every character and none are too domineering or centralizing in the metagame. The fact that you would go as low as to say that fox is overpowered despite the fact that in melee he is very easily dealth with by all players, just goes to show that you indeed are in need of some serious attitude adjustments(in regards to your competitive mindset) and mu knowledge. Getting better and learning the mu are the only correct answers currently in this stage of the build.

Wanted to make another note on this - Just because you've played all the characters doesn't mean that you know each of them on a high, national level.

Dont tell me you hang up kirby posters on your bedroom walls. Kirbies number 1 setback from keeping him getting developed is that very few people want to play him. The same applies for others like gdubs and sonic.

There are quite a few sonic players - Wizzrobe (hasn't placed in P:M tournaments since Zenith?), Nazo, Mapmark, and others.

 

[Bleck]

The perfect Smash player hasn't emerged yet,

I don't know, man...

Ive played with nearly every character and none are too domineering or centralizing in the metagame.

It looks like we've already got the perfect Smash player. Objectively determined that there are no balance issues and everything is perfect, y'see!

 

[OmegaObi-wan144]

The phrase "git betur skrub...."

Honestly I think it can go two ways, it can be used as an excuse or just a way to tell someone that you're not instantly going to just be GOOD. The problem is discerning which is being used at that moment.

The person with the problem should ask around with how to deal with the "broken" aspect and then compile that information and retry. If after doing this the person with a problem with the "broken" aspect should re-evaluate whether the "broken" thing is actually broken. If he/she thinks so still then they should re-compile all the new information and then bring it to attention again.


Stuff like this is just hard to choose.
_________________________________

Fox is not "very easily dealt with by all players." They may know the MU as it's popular and be able to punish and play correctly but even with that it's still difficult.

I agree with your first statement.

And while it may not be popular I stand by my statement that fox is easy to handle, though

Wanted to make another note on this - Just because you've played all the characters doesn't mean that you know each of them on a high, national level.


There are quite a few sonic players - Wizzrobe (hasn't placed in P:M tournaments since Zenith?), Nazo, Mapmark, and others.

i know fairly many of the melee vets to a high level, mid and low tiers included, but ill admit that i dont like the brawl newcomers as much and dont really play them. Im fairly capable though and am looking to place high at mlg evo and texas showdown.

Wizzrobe doesnt count at all since he quit sonic and pm after getting his op character adjusted(one of the few changes Non-buff that i agree with). Also hes highly overrated and outspoken because hes a little boy. Not aware of the other sonic players and sonics popularity in general because hes such an uncool character.

 

[Kokomaniac]

You guys are making me so sad...how is bickering about nothing in particular going to make this game better than it already is? Can the smash community actually work together for once or are we destined to fracture and embarrass ourselves in front of all other fans of fighting games?

Tune in 4 years from now to find out

 

[Bleck]

Because other fighting game fans are paragons of maturity and grace, am I right folks.

 

[Kokomaniac]

So we might as well be exactly like them huh?