Tier List Speculation

[The_Enlightenment_]

One thing though that ive been hearing a lot, especially recently is people talking about how they feel melee players should adapt a pm character rather than their melee main and that it would be nothing but beneficial to the community. This is a good point but one problem with this is that no individual pm brawl newcomer or buffed low tier fits the same kind of playstyle melee players enjoy, which is fast, technical, versatile, and combo heavy chars with an intuitive movset which are kind of hard to find in pm. (Hear me out)

So ive really liked that pm has taken the time to implement a lot of really unusual, heavier, and slower zoning chars in the game which wouldnt have worked well in melee and ive enjoyed their designs. However as a melee predominant player ive always gravitated towards simpler designed characters that are adaptable yet leave room for creativity and innovation such as fox mario luigi marth falcon falco. A lot of the new characters feel really gimmicky with no room for anything but the intended play style and they lose my interest pretty quickly. You see campy foxes and falcos, patient ones, ddance heavy ones and aggresive ones. Some are more methodical while others fish for reads. No luigi player ever plays the same in melee. And this isnt even mentioning marths different playstyles.

Ive tinked with some slower and faster chars like sonic wario and wolf but none of them quite cut it for me, and obviously many others feel the same way from the evident popularity of the aforementioned melee characters. I promise you would see many more melee players get involved if you had at least one new char that drew their attention.

And before you bring up wolf Im pretty sure the biggest turnoff if that he doesnt have the same coolness factor that fox or falco do. They have this really serious look to them and their attacks arent over the top or trying to force a personality onto the characters aesthetic design. Maybe this is the really I've not really been interested in wolf, but i find it hard to like a character who wears gay porn leather mixed with vegeta armor with an anime chibi wolf head attached. And thats not mentioning his jank as hell attack animations (canonball nair and that uair) If Wolf had an alt costume that looked like how he did in the melee intro I probably would pick him up. Maybe id need new attack animations too who knows. Just all of these new characters kinda becomes a moot-ish incentive to pick up pm if youre a melee player when all of the new characters are ones that dont evoke the same kind of gameplay that the melee top tiers provide, unless youre looking for new matchups and not new characters to play. (This all applies to all top tier mains except marth players, roy and ike are pretty neat-o but sword characters arent my preference.)

 

[Frost | Odds]

fast, technical, versatile, and combo heavy chars with an intuitive movset which are kind of hard to find in pm

Toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooon Liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiink

 

[NWRL]

One thing though that ive been hearing a lot, especially recently is people talking about how they feel melee players should adapt a pm character rather than their melee main and that it would be nothing but beneficial to the community. This is a good point but one problem with this is that no individual pm brawl newcomer or buffed low tier fits the same kind of playstyle melee players enjoy, which is fast, technical, versatile, and combo heavy chars with an intuitive movset which are kind of hard to find in pm. (Hear me out)

So ive really liked that pm has taken the time to implement a lot of really unusual, heavier, and slower zoning chars in the game which wouldnt have worked well in melee and ive enjoyed their designs. However as a melee predominant player ive always gravitated towards simpler designed characters that are adaptable yet leave room for creativity and innovation such as fox mario luigi marth falcon falco. A lot of the new characters feel really gimmicky with no room for anything but the intended play style and they lose my interest pretty quickly. You see campy foxes and falcos, patient ones, ddance heavy ones and aggresive ones. Some are more methodical while others fish for reads. No luigi player ever plays the same in melee. And this isnt even mentioning marths different playstyles.

Ive tinked with some slower and faster chars like sonic wario and wolf but none of them quite cut it for me, and obviously many others feel the same way from the evident popularity of the aforementioned melee characters. I promise you would see many more melee players get involved if you had at least one new char that drew their attention.

And before you bring up wolf Im pretty sure the biggest turnoff if that he doesnt have the same coolness factor that fox or falco do. They have this really serious look to them and their attacks arent over the top or trying to force a personality onto the characters aesthetic design. Maybe this is the really I've not really been interested in wolf, but i find it hard to like a character who wears gay porn leather mixed with vegeta armor with an anime chibi wolf head attached. And thats not mentioning his jank as hell attack animations (canonball nair and that uair) If Wolf had an alt costume that looked like how he did in the melee intro I probably would pick him up. Maybe id need new attack animations too who knows. Just all of these new characters kinda becomes a moot-ish incentive to pick up pm if youre a melee player when all of the new characters are ones that dont evoke the same kind of gameplay that the melee top tiers provide, unless youre looking for new matchups and not new characters to play. (This all applies to all top tier mains except marth players, roy and ike are pretty neat-o but sword characters arent my preference.)

>Gay porn leather
>Chibi wolf head
>vegeta armor

Versus

>TACTICOOL LAYERED JACKET
>OH SO SWAG SCOUTER
>CHIBI FOX/BIRD HEAD

 

[The_Enlightenment_]

T_E: If you don't like people whining about MUs and making P:M lenient, demand that the P:M backroom import Melee Pichu as is and start stomping everyone with him. Then no one will say you are switching to P:M cuz it's easier.

Oh wait, you're claiming you'll be better than others because you use the character that [you say] goes even with or beats everyone, someone who benefited from moving over to P:M. THAT makes sense and OBVIOUSLY proves you're super skilled. Sort of like how Nairo and CT Zero use MK and I'm sure you've got loads of respect for their Brawl skillz. Or like when you beat a Kirby with Fox in Melee. Great skills man!

Also Marth beats Doc, first four minutes are enough to see this (Shroomed is the best Doc I can think of or have ever seen, and he's stomped because it's Marth): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61B5STtPoQM

Shroomed and ppu have gone back and forth with doc and marth in the past, to the point where at a time people thought doc was some kind of hidden marth counter. Shroomed has complained about falcon before as well and maybe he doesnt like that you have to depend more on spacing against marth than against a fox or falco. Or perhaps its because he knows it wouldnt be the kind of match that cali wants to see and he goes sheik to end it quickly. Or he doesnt like that you have to end your combos on marth with nair rather than fair. Im still sure shroomed could beat ppu if he really tried and was playing good, its still an uphill matchup but nowhere near as bad as people think, possibly better than falcon and definately better than sheik, who unlike marth gets tons of free stuff during their matchup, marth gets nothing free. Also im saying im skilled because i whine about nothing except strong bad and im willing to utilize my skills to help establish a characters validity and benefit the humble mario mains who dont have a voice

 

[The_Enlightenment_]

>Gay porn leather
>Chibi wolf head
>vegeta armor

Versus

>TACTICOOL LAYERED JACKET
>OH SO SWAG SCOUTER
>CHIBI FOX/BIRD HEAD

Yes badass if you ask me

also its only chibi if you use the fugly brawl models, props for those sleek and sexy melee models that were added in pm

 

[NWRL]

Yes badass if you ask me

I don't see how one is cooler than the other, one is a clean-cut military styled furry and the other is a rough and tumble furry mercenary with a little bit of Mad Max influence

 

[NightShadow6]

I think we do have to say movement is arbitrarily harder in melee than pm. As in its literally harder to dash dance in melee compared to PM.

 

[The_Enlightenment_]

TBQH, I picked up Project M because of how some of rebalanced characters have flow more reminiscent of a traditional fighting game compared to many Melee characters, and I was playing plenty of traditional fighters at the time so it was a much easier transition then if I went Melee.

I picked up pm because i wanted to see how i would stack against melee top tiers with my melee mid tier main doc, and he goes even with all of them. To me the matchups are usually more enjoyable than playing the chars themselves

 

[Ogopogo]

And before you bring up wolf Im pretty sure the biggest turnoff if that he doesnt have the same coolness factor that fox or falco do. They have this really serious look to them and their attacks arent over the top or trying to force a personality onto the characters aesthetic design. Maybe this is the really I've not really been interested in wolf, but i find it hard to like a character who wears gay porn leather mixed with vegeta armor with an anime chibi wolf head attached.)

Alright everyone, we can stop posting. We found the best post on Smashboards.

 

[Strong Badam]

i know more than a few people that migrated to PM because it's easier. like myself.

Other than Melee having no fun or interesting characters to play for me, I personally migrated because it introduces a challenge that Melee will never have. Needing to know more than 8 matchups is kind of a big deal.

 

[Daftatt]

Other than having no fun or interesting characters to play, I personally migrated because it introduces a challenge that Melee will never have. Needing to know more than 8 matchups is kind of a big deal.

yeah, if as many characters are as viable as I think, then matchups are the name of the metagame. It's gonna be so great.

 

[Vashimus]

Im still sure shroomed could beat ppu if he really tried and was playing good, its still an uphill matchup but nowhere near as bad as people think

You said Marth not only goes even with Doc, but is one of his best matchups. Now you're saying it's an uphill battle. Which one is it, Romney?

 

[The_Enlightenment_]

You said Marth not only goes even with Doc, but is one of his best matchups. Now you're saying it's an uphill battle. Which one is it, Romney?

I said pm mario went even with marth. He does better because he was buffed

 

[Soft Serve]

One thing though that ive been hearing a lot, especially recently is people talking about how they feel melee players should adapt a pm character rather than their melee main and that it would be nothing but beneficial to the community. This is a good point but one problem with this is that no individual pm brawl newcomer or buffed low tier fits the same kind of playstyle melee players enjoy, which is fast, technical, versatile, and combo heavy chars with an intuitive movset which are kind of hard to find in pm. (Hear me out)

So ive really liked that pm has taken the time to implement a lot of really unusual, heavier, and slower zoning chars in the game which wouldnt have worked well in melee and ive enjoyed their designs. However as a melee predominant player ive always gravitated towards simpler designed characters that are adaptable yet leave room for creativity and innovation such as fox mario luigi marth falcon falco. A lot of the new characters feel really gimmicky with no room for anything but the intended play style and they lose my interest pretty quickly. You see campy foxes and falcos, patient ones, ddance heavy ones and aggresive ones. Some are more methodical while others fish for reads. No luigi player ever plays the same in melee. And this isnt even mentioning marths different playstyles.

Ive tinked with some slower and faster chars like sonic wario and wolf but none of them quite cut it for me, and obviously many others feel the same way from the evident popularity of the aforementioned melee characters. I promise you would see many more melee players get involved if you had at least one new char that drew their attention.

And before you bring up wolf Im pretty sure the biggest turnoff if that he doesnt have the same coolness factor that fox or falco do. They have this really serious look to them and their attacks arent over the top or trying to force a personality onto the characters aesthetic design. Maybe this is the really I've not really been interested in wolf, but i find it hard to like a character who wears gay porn leather mixed with vegeta armor with an anime chibi wolf head attached. And thats not mentioning his jank as hell attack animations (canonball nair and that uair) If Wolf had an alt costume that looked like how he did in the melee intro I probably would pick him up. Maybe id need new attack animations too who knows. Just all of these new characters kinda becomes a moot-ish incentive to pick up pm if youre a melee player when all of the new characters are ones that dont evoke the same kind of gameplay that the melee top tiers provide, unless youre looking for new matchups and not new characters to play. (This all applies to all top tier mains except marth players, roy and ike are pretty neat-o but sword characters arent my preference.)

At first I thought you were believable and just rude in your arguments, but now I don't even know if you're trolling or not. This entire post is completely subjective, built upon opinions and vague groupings and stereotypes of what "melee players" and in contrast pm players enjoy.

"fast, technical, versatile, and combo heavy chars with an intuitive movset which are kind of hard to find in pm." This alone is frustrating to even read just because you're grouping melee players as if they are just one giant hive mind of spacies and marth mains. I wouldn't call Peach particularly fast or combo heavy. Jiggs sheik and samus don't exactly fit every aspect of the list you mentioned either. Since good, strong, popular characters in melee don't even fit your criteria for a character interesting for melee players, I don't see how this refuted the idea that melee players should try to pick up a re-done pm character.

You pretty much listed 2 pm characters as if they represent the whole cast, and tossed them aside as being interesting for a whole community simply based on your own opinions. Yes, pm allows for character archetypes that slow the pace of the match down slightly, such as bowser, snake, DDD, link, ivy, and others, to be relevant. That doesn't exclude the faster characters, such as tink, ike, diddy, pit, and ZSS, from being enjoyable to those who want a faster paced match. Personally I fell in love with Diddy. He is fast, incredibly fluid, opened up a huge amount of technical options with banana AGTs, has a very solid combo game, and his overall kit seems very simple to me. He certainly represents more of a "melee" style game play than jiggs or peach do. Do I not count as a melee player? I'm a fox main, and I enjoy the type of game play that pm allows to exist.

 

[The_Enlightenment_]

At first I thought you were believable and just rude in your arguments, but now I don't even know if you're trolling or not. This entire post is completely subjective, built upon opinions and vague groupings and stereotypes of what "melee players" and in contrast pm players enjoy.

"fast, technical, versatile, and combo heavy chars with an intuitive movset which are kind of hard to find in pm." This alone is frustrating to even read just because you're grouping melee players as if they are just one giant hive mind of spacies and marth mains. I wouldn't call Peach particularly fast or combo heavy. Jiggs sheik and samus don't exactly fit every aspect of the list you mentioned either. Since good, strong, popular characters in melee don't even fit your criteria for a character interesting for melee players, I don't see how this refuted the idea that melee players should try to pick up a re-done pm character.

You pretty much listed 2 pm characters as if they represent the whole cast, and tossed them aside as being interesting for a whole community simply based on your own opinions. Yes, pm allows for character archetypes that slow the pace of the match down slightly, such as bowser, snake, DDD, link, ivy, and others, to be relevant. That doesn't exclude the faster characters, such as tink, ike, diddy, pit, and ZSS, from being enjoyable to those who want a faster paced match. Personally I fell in love with Diddy. He is fast, incredibly fluid, opened up a huge amount of technical options with banana AGTs, has a very solid combo game, and his overall kit seems very simple to me. He certainly represents more of a "melee" style game play than jiggs or peach do. Do I not count as a melee player? I'm a fox main, and I enjoy the type of game play that pm allows to exist.

What, you think im trolling just because im saying something thats unpopular? What do you want me to say, that fox falco players are all baddies that play overpowered characters and still lose? Also I obviously put down fox+falco because they helped prove my point the best; theyre really popular with melee players and emphasize a lot of what people enjoy about melee. I even mentioned that I liked a lot of the new characters designs and enjoyed playing against them, they just dont have that kind of playstyle that helped cause me and many others to fall in love with playing as fox. I dont have any problem with a character that adds something new to the game, its just im not really looking for something entirely new when im looking for a character to play, just good old fashioned tech skill, combos, dash dances, and mind games with an underwhelming recovery and a versatile projectile that doesnt entirely define the characters play style preferably

 

[Nguz95]

I'm trying to figure out why T_E_ is receiving different treatment than Papa Stone did… I'm having some trouble if you can't already tell.

 

[TreK]

You said Marth not only goes even with Doc, but is one of his best matchups. Now you're saying it's an uphill battle. Which one is it, Romney?

"These are people who pay no income tax. ... My job is not to worry about those people." - Mitt Romney, 2012
"This game needs to be designed for and targeted toward people who play the game instead of those who don't." - Strong Bad, 2013

DUN DUN DUN
#meleeluminati

 

[Thor]

...T_E: You want underwhelming recovery? Go play SSB64 vs Isai [as Kirby], you'll see underwhelming recovery.

Also that's not at all old fashion, old-fashion is gimps for days, tent combos, and thunderspikes that are free. And lasers and Falcon Punch combos. C'mon, you call it Melee because it's not the original.

Also you don't speak for everyone (if you did I'd rather be dead). Some of us do want something new and the plethora of other characters offers that. I'm also not clear what you mean by "combo-heavy" as plenty of characters have fine combos (yeah Dedede doesn't but so what?).

Also what in god's name is an "intuitive" moveset? You mean that fact that animals light themselves on fire to fly back to the stage (and the fact that the bird flies less distance than a ******* fox?) Or how they punch with fists? Or how they do backflips without jumping or anything? What the hell kind of intuition do you possess?

 

[Kink-Link5]

DeDeDe has two hit combos that do like 300 damage and lead to an edgeguard.

 

[Rᴏb]

: Not even Fly can save him from low tier city.

 

[Plum]

DDD is sleeper low-mid tier.
That dude is like King Cheese. You're offstage and you're DDD's ***** and he makes sure you know it.
His neutral game does leave something to be desired to be honest through a lack of easily accessed mobility and often telegraphed options, but his multiple jumps, mega range, and janktastic Waddledashing gives him enough to work with that he can open up his can of cheese whiz and spray it all over you.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

"pm brawl newcomer... fast, technical, versatile, and combo heavy chars with an intuitive movset"

That sounds like Lucas?

Trolling or not, ****ty posts aren't fun to read.

 

[The_Enlightenment_]

"pm brawl newcomer... fast, technical, versatile, and combo heavy chars with an intuitive movset"

That sounds like Lucas?

Trolling or not, ****ty posts aren't fun to read.

I thought earlier I also mentioned the character had to have a good aesthetic design as well, a whiny version of ness will never be "cool" in my eyes, and djc is simply not my forte. Cool design but earthbound is ehhhhhhh even more so than diddy kong and dk.

Also up yours man, go to college and be enlightened, maybe there theyll teach you something about the dangers of being another sheep blindly following someones propaganda. And yes I talking about strong bad and how he butters up his spacy whining to get you guys to eat it up

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

You must not fancy DJC because it's too difficult for you, sorry that he's so hard, I understand why you'd much rather play an easy character though

Edit: Tildes don't really work on Smashboards, how unfortunate, that face will be the substitute

 

[Plum]

 

[The_Enlightenment_]

...T_E: You want underwhelming recovery? Go play SSB64 vs Isai [as Kirby], you'll see underwhelming recovery.

Also that's not at all old fashion, old-fashion is gimps for days, tent combos, and thunderspikes that are free. And lasers and Falcon Punch combos. C'mon, you call it Melee because it's not the original.

Also you don't speak for everyone (if you did I'd rather be dead). Some of us do want something new and the plethora of other characters offers that. I'm also not clear what you mean by "combo-heavy" as plenty of characters have fine combos (yeah Dedede doesn't but so what?).

Also what in god's name is an "intuitive" moveset? You mean that fact that animals light themselves on fire to fly back to the stage (and the fact that the bird flies less distance than a ******* fox?) Or how they punch with fists? Or how they do backflips without jumping or anything? What the hell kind of intuition do you possess?

Its like ryu in street fighter, no gimmicks simple kicks punchs and some flashy stuff mixed in for kicks, and just a clear cut purpose which is to ravage some asses. Maybe Im just not wording it correctly, but i swear that alot of the brawl newcomers feel too gmmicky for me to play as them. Against them, totally, but characters like snake for example or wario even just dont evoke the same kind of aggresive play style fox has. All people have a certain way they want to play their characters and interact with the game, and will obviously favor those whose playstyles intersect with the player's interests. I prefer simple characters out of preference and the only other char thats not a melee top tier in pm that has a simple intuitive playstyle is mario, who I already play. A lot of these new chars are abstract which makes for great spectating and matchups but not something im totally 100% interested in playing. I could play fox or mario or luigi exclusively for a month and still not be bored of them

 

[Taojaz]

Haha T_E is so salty that not everybody thinks his main is #1 on the tier list

Also Plum that One Piece avatar is awesome.

 

[The_Enlightenment_]

Haha T_E is so salty that not everybody thinks his main is #1 on the tier list

Also Plum that One Piece avatar is awesome.

Dont disrespect the mario baddy or I may just have to slay strong bad and take his money at the next tournament he's excited for (actually strong bad will be pulverized either way but mario is no slouch and you should stop sleeping on him)

 

[The_Enlightenment_]

You must not fancy DJC because it's too difficult for you, sorry that he's so hard, I understand why you'd much rather play an easy character though

Edit: Tildes don't really work on Smashboards, how unfortunate, that face will be the substitute

Yes ive been trying to play yoshi ever since i saw amass yoshi at evo but the djc has weird properties and accelerations in speed that make me uncomfortable. Doesnt make me bad though, i can beat any yoshi 1v1 in pm

 

[Taojaz]

Dont disrespect the mario baddy or I may just have to slay strong bad and take his money at the next tournament he's excited for (actually strong bad will be pulverized either way but mario is no slouch and you should stop sleeping on him)

Wow you're such a gangster. I literally shivered out of fear when I read that message, and I'm sure SB did too.

Seriously though, calm down. I love Mario to death and I used to main him, but he loses seriously badly to every sword user, and he DEFINITELY doesn't beat the entire cast. He's definitely in the top ten, but his bad matchups are debilitating enough that calling him top tier just makes you look foolish.

 

[The_Enlightenment_]

wow wtf smashboards why is it so hard to just edit a simple post

 

[Rᴏb]

but characters like snake or wario even just dont evoke the same kind of play style fox has.

It sound like you literally want another Fox. There are characters with the simple yet technical playstyle you want (Wolf, Diddy, Lucas, Pit, etc.), but since they aren't literally Fox you probably won't like them. You're out of luck dude.

 

[Nguz95]

T_E, where are you in Texas? If you're close to low tier city, you should hit it up and get to know some of the guys there. If you're in their area that means you're in a top PM location. Competing with some really great players there would be a privilege I'd envy.

 

[Deleted member]

lol @ how may people are salty. We have someone who is both vocal and bringing a new point of view to the game. Don't ruin such an opportunity.

 

[The_Enlightenment_]

Wow you're such a gangster. I literally shivered out of fear when I read that message, and I'm sure SB did too.

Seriously though, calm down. I love Mario to death and I used to main him, but he loses seriously badly to every sword user, and he DEFINITELY doesn't beat the entire cast. He's definitely in the top ten, but his bad matchups are debilitating enough that calling him top tier just makes you look foolish.

How can a character with no weaknesses be anything less than amazing? You guys seriously exaggerate character match ups, especially strong bad who thinkgs dk:fox is a 30:70 matchup. Just work on you movement, punish, and play a little smarter with pills and you shouldnt have trouble beating any sword char. In fact marth only gives doc trouble in melee because he's just so fast with very little room to approach, and marios approach is way better along with the rest of his traits in pm. Link or ike or roy are far easier to get in on and all get punished harder by mario than marth ever will. If any mario mains/players (not you strong bad take your fake mario elsewhere) are reading this just remember to predict and crouch cancel untipped aerials and apply pressure with fireballs for good measure. Even if he swats you pills away it means he wont be approaching you in a way thats too significant for you. Easy.

 

[Burnsy]

lol @ how may people are salty. We have someone who is both vocal and bringing a new point of view to the game. Don't ruin such an opportunity.

It would be easier to take what he is saying seriously if he didn't keep constantly contradicting himself. At this point I'm not really sure what he wants.

 

[GP&B]

I don't really take issue with different view points (vro's thread was really valuable), but honestly T_E is having such a poor time articulating anything that people are getting frustrated with him.

If you're gonna talk up this college education enlightenment then put that part about expressing ideas and points clearly to use. If you can't do that, then try to break it down and have everyone else figure it out.

 

[Rᴏb]

He wants another Fox, quick don't miss this opportunity to tell him it's not gonna happen!!! What is there even to discuss at this point?

Can we talk about sleeper characters some more?

 

[Taojaz]

I'm personally having trouble with him not because I disagree with his opinion, but because's he's being really rude about it. Like seriously, what's his beef with Strong Bad? Did SB 3-0 him in a money match sometime or something? And why is he so closed-minded? In his very first post on the topic, he generalized all Melee players, insulted almost every Mario player, insulted Project M players in general, etc etc.
He's also overestimating himself by a LOT. I'll be willing to accept his input if he actually manages to follow through on his threats to curbstomp Strong Bad. Until then, T_E, you won't get any sympathy from me.

 

[The_Enlightenment_]

It sound like you literally want another Fox. There are characters with the simple yet technical playstyle you want (Wolf, Diddy, Lucas, Pit, etc.), but since they aren't literally Fox you probably won't like them. You're out of luck dude.

Not exactly like fox, but someone packed with the crazy funness that fox provides. I said earlier i would play wolf if didnt look so ugly and have such janky uairs. Not interested in diddy at all and simple is the name of the game when it comes to hopping so thats a no to his djcing. And pit is literally nothing like fox. I said earlier somebody fast and technical, someone who has the tools to outwit and outlast his opponents with pure speed like fox can. Pit has a tiny ddance, medium runspeed, and superman recovery. His arrows are more falco/peach than fox and if armada plays him, hes not really technical to play. The only thing fast about him are his sword slashes and all tech skill that can come from that is simply fingering your controller. But I will promise that Ill help expand the wolf metagame if you make him not look so scary