Tier List Speculation

[JOE!]

Snake lower than TL.
So I have a 100% win rate against you with a worse character....get better plz

Ironically, didnt YL become a sort of scourge for the Top Tier Jiggs despite being worse?

Specific MU =/= Tier placement

Unless you're Brawl DK, then **** penguins.

 

[NeonApophis]

I updated my old tier list.
Notable changes:

• Falco moved to number 1. The ability to jump out of his shine with no lag after reflecting a projectile is just too good and lets him shut down pretty much all projectiles.
• Game and Watch moved up significantly due to his good range, priority, low endlag, good combos, high damage output, and very strong kill moves, combined with an amazing recovery and good oos game because of his up b.
• Zelda moved up substantially when I became aware that you can land cancel her neutral b and combo into just about anything. She is very good because of her stage control with Din's fire, invincibility and combo game out of neutral b, and generally fairly strong combo and kill game.
• Tiers relabeled to better indicate their relative closeness. S tier are the clear top 4 imo, but I think everyone on this list is viable. B+ tier could use some work to make them a little more solid. I don't think the B+ characters are bad, but they seem like they will have some issues against good players who are experienced in those matchups.

As always, the general lack of metagame development makes this ranking uncertain, especially among the lower tiers who have received less widespread usage among top players and may have less obvious strengths than the characters I have placed more highly. Please point out any placings that seem egregiously inaccurate.



S Tier
1. Falco
2. Fox
3. Lucas
4. Wolf

A+ Tier
5. Peach
6. Sheik
7. Ivysaur
8. Meta Knight

A Tier
9. Mario
10. Game and Watch
11. Marth
12. Charizard
13. Pikachu
14. Zelda
15. Snake
16. Ness

A- Tier
17. Wario
18. Ike
19. Captain Falcon
20. Pit
21. Jigglypuff
22. Lucario
23. Ganondorf
24. Donkey Kong
25. Bowser
26. Link
27. Squirtle
28. Dedede
29. Luigi

B+ Tier
30. Toon Link
31. Zero Suit Samus
32. Sonic
33. ROB
34. Diddy



Previous Tier List

Spoiler

S Tier
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Lucas
4. Wolf

A+ Tier
5. Sheik
6. Peach
7. Ivysaur
8. Marth
9. Charizard

A Tier
10. Snake
11. Meta Knight
12. Pikachu
13. Wario(?)
14. Ness
15. Mario

A- Tier
16. Ike(?)
17. Pit
18. Jigglypuff
19. Captain Falcon
20. Lucario
21. Ganondorf
22. Game and Watch

B+ Tier
23. Zelda
24. Bowser(?)
25. Dedede
26. Zero Suit Samus(?)
27. ROB
28. Diddy(?)
29. Luigi
30. Donkey Kong

B Tier
31. Link(?)
32. Squirtle(??)
33. Sonic(?)

C Tier
34. Toon Link


Our Boy
Roy

 

[Ariyo]

Someone explain to me why MK is rated so high in every tier list. Particularly when he's placed in the top 5.

 

[Nguz95]

Spoiler

I updated my old tier list.
Notable changes:

• Falco moved to number 1. The ability to jump out of his shine with no lag after reflecting a projectile is just too good and lets him shut down pretty much all projectiles.
• Game and Watch moved up significantly due to his good range, priority, low endlag, good combos, high damage output, and very strong kill moves, combined with an amazing recovery and good oos game because of his up b.
• Zelda moved up substantially when I became aware that you can land cancel her neutral b and combo into just about anything. She is very good because of her stage control with Din's fire, invincibility and combo game out of neutral b, and generally fairly strong combo and kill game.
• Tiers relabeled to better indicate their relative closeness. S tier are the clear top 4 imo, but I think everyone on this list is viable. B+ tier could use some work to make them a little more solid. I don't think the B+ characters are bad, but they seem like they will have some issues against good players who are experienced in those matchups.

As always, the general lack of metagame development makes this ranking uncertain, especially among the lower tiers who have received less widespread usage among top players and may have less obvious strengths than the characters I have placed more highly. Please point out any placings that seem egregiously inaccurate.




S Tier
1. Falco
2. Fox
3. Lucas
4. Wolf

A+ Tier
5. Peach
6. Sheik
7. Ivysaur
8. Meta Knight

A Tier
9. Mario
10. Game and Watch
11. Marth
12. Charizard
13. Pikachu
14. Zelda
15. Snake
16. Ness

A- Tier
17. Wario
18. Ike
19. Captain Falcon
20. Pit
21. Jigglypuff
22. Lucario
23. Ganondorf
24. Donkey Kong
25. Bowser
26. Link
27. Squirtle
28. Dedede
29. Luigi

B+ Tier
30. Toon Link
31. Zero Suit Samus
32. Sonic
33. ROB
34. Diddy



Previous Tier List

Spoiler

S Tier
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Lucas
4. Wolf

A+ Tier
5. Sheik
6. Peach
7. Ivysaur
8. Marth
9. Charizard

A Tier
10. Snake
11. Meta Knight
12. Pikachu
13. Wario(?)
14. Ness
15. Mario

A- Tier
16. Ike(?)
17. Pit
18. Jigglypuff
19. Captain Falcon
20. Lucario
21. Ganondorf
22. Game and Watch

B+ Tier
23. Zelda
24. Bowser(?)
25. Dedede
26. Zero Suit Samus(?)
27. ROB
28. Diddy(?)
29. Luigi
30. Donkey Kong

B Tier
31. Link(?)
32. Squirtle(??)
33. Sonic(?)

C Tier
34. Toon Link


Our Boy
Roy

Putting Wario so low is ballsy indeed. Even more interesting is that you put Falco over Fox. I think that, since neither character was significantly changed from Melee, the old Melee placement should still hold sway. Also, what changes from Melee make Peach suddenly better than Sheik? Pikachu? Why is he so high? He has very little range on his attacks, and his weight makes him combo fodder. Again, he was not changed nearly enough from Melee to lift him over Melee stalwarts like Jigglypuff and Captain Falcon. Finally, what advantages does Mr. Game and Watch offer over Zelda? I see Zelda as one of the really defensive characters that can be played successfully. Ivysaur also fits into this mold, and I consider them to be very similar in terms of potency. They have rather one-dimensional neutral games and are incredibly frail. Mr. Game and Watch, in this respect, is very similar, but he does not have the defensive capabilities of either character. I agree that Mr. Game and Watch is far more potent than most give him credit for, but I think he is not quite as high as 10th.

Anyways, these are just my thoughts. I realize that they hold no clout, as I am a nobody, but I figured I would put them out there to encourage a conversation.

 

[NWRL]

What if Falcon's Raptor Boost ignored projectiles like in Melee and his airborne Falcon Kick is shortened/angled so he can use it for recovery again. Right now unless you are in the top corner Falcon kick will just speed up your death.

 

[CaptinMoses]

What makes Diddy so low? Out of interest?

 

[Nguz95]

Someone explain to me why MK is rated so high in every tier list. Particularly when he's placed in the top 5.

MK is rated really high because he has a phenomenal ground game and multiple jumps to aid his recovery. He can tech chase like a monster, he can go deep for follow ups, he can recover from almost anywhere, he can KO at low %.. In short, he can do everything. His only major flaw is that he dies at absurdly low %. Other than that, he is a killing machine. See if you can pull up some vids of Oro playing MK. It's pretty impressive.

 

[KayB]

What makes Diddy so low? Out of interest?

No one's figured him out yet aside from a few select players. That combined with the fact that he doesn't have anything that stands out (no great KO moves, no amazing recovery, no great ground speed, no substantial aerial game, no above-average range, etc.) makes him a very mediocre character. I'm sure many believe that he has potential because people are still learning how to use the character and his bananas, but for now he's relatively unexplored.

 

[SixSaw]

What would improve Falcon more than anything is a decrease in shield knockback so that he can actually grab OoS.

 

[NeonApophis]

Some notes to answer these questions:
Falco was moved over Fox solely because of his reflector (not the shine hitbox, the actual reflecting capabilities). He does not experience any lag from reflecting, so he can reflect a projectile and jump out on the next frame. This is an unintentional side effect of the way his shine was reprogrammed from its Brawl version, but it has not yet been fixed.

MK is really good. The short version is that he's basically a more aerially mobile version of Marth with better killing and gimping capabilities. Bair lets him kill well in the air, his fsmash and dsmash are really fast kill moves, he has a pretty good recovery, and can continue combos very well. I moved him above Marth in this update because I realized that his range is actually deceptively long and he is better at continuing combos than I had previously realized. His tiny hurtbox also works really well with his disjointed hitboxes to keep him safe.

I've talked a bit about Peach before. Peach and Sheik are super close and switched positions on this list, and it could certainly be the other way around. However, since so many characters have way better recoveries and can therefore gimp much better. This makes Peach's recovery capabilities more valuable, and also makes Sheik's gimping capabilities less effective since characters are able to recover more successfully. Peach is also a lot better at exploiting PM's inferior shields than Sheik is, since Peach has amazing shield pressure while Sheik generally just has to grab you if you're shielding. Peach also did get some explicit buffs in her up tilt, side b, and I believe up b, but the main thing is just that Peach does better in PM because of the improvements the cast received and the altered shield mechanics.

Pikachu's placing is primarily due to his new QAC and moderate buffs to other moves. I don't have too much proof that I can provide for Pikachu since there aren't many high level Pikachu vids out there. However, having played Axe's Pikachu and seeing how powerful QAC is even with his limited PM experience makes me pretty terrified of Pikachu. He doesn't have amazing range, but he has good combos, good killing power with his smash attacks and bair, down b is actually good in this game due to its very low endlag, and he is still great at going way off stage to gimp and then recovering with his excellent up b. Just for reference, Pikachu was already 10th on the most recent Melee tier list, and was substantially buffed. QAC just gives him absolutely ridiculous mobility and his improved moves make him more solid overall.

Game & Watch is one of the most underrated characters imo. I gave a brief overview, but really he is just super strong and has good combos. You can land cancel his neutral b, which lets you create walls of food that help keep him safe, and the pan hitbox sets up for lots of stuff since it has no extra landing lag. His dash attack can be cancelled into grab and up smash. DA -> grab is really good on shield and works on hit at low percents. Dash attack to up smash works at mid percents and kills really early since his up smash is so strong (like you can kill after connecting with a DA at about 55-65% depending on character on most stages). All his moves are also disjointed and have really high priority, and do lots of damage and knockback. Fsmash does up to 38% if all the hits connect and just destroys shields. The ability to jump out of up b is also super useful for continuing combos and up b is excellent oos (I assume it still comes out on frame 1, but I haven't seen PM frame data to confirm). Game & Watch basically has all the qualities that make a good character other than a shine. I think G&W is good enough that I am probably going to pick him up in addition to my other characters. I currently play Fox, Falco, Lucas, Wolf, and Peach if that gives any indication of how good a character has to be for me to play them.

Zelda is also really good, but just not quite as good as G&W. Her recovery is long, but not very safe. Her neutral game is also somewhat limited due to her lack of persistent high priority hitboxes. Aerial neutral b is really good and sets up for lots of stuff, but it's kind of predictable and not always viable since you have to jump and wait a little while before using it if you want it to land cancel. Din's fire is also good, but can be neutralized fairly easily by hitting the fireballs. She's obviously pretty good, but I think she's somewhat outclassed by the characters above her.

Ivysaur seems better than Zelda for several reasons. Razor leaf has great range and hitbox properties. All of Ivysaur's moves also have good range, she can heal herself, has very strong combos, one of the best recoveries due to how safe it is, nair is incredibly good, and Ivy has good killing power and gimping capabilities. This is not too in depth, but I think she is better at these things than Zelda.

Diddy is low just because he doesn't seem to have any outstanding strengths. I'm honestly not very sure who should be in the bottom 5-8 characters, since PM really is pretty well balanced. Diddy has decent combos and an interesting banana game, but his combos don't seem to be all that great compared to the competition. His recovery is also pretty predictable, which is an issue even if his barrels hit you when you're trying to edgeguard him. So far he's just the least impressive to me, but I'm not super sure about his placing.

 

[Nguz95]

That all seems fair to me. I've heard people like Juunsuchi talk about how limited G&Ws neutral game is aside from the bacon. I'd love to see him do well, but I have my doubts just because he has a bit of a hard time getting in, especially compared to characters like Lucas and Wolf who can dominate neutral.
I agree that Ivy is better than Zelda. I personally feel that she has even more to offer than Metaknight, but that might just be me. I honestly feel like Zelda is smoke and mirrors at the moment, but again, it could just be me.
I'll also agree with your assessment of Peach. I did not think about the shield mechanics when I made my own list, so I am glad you pointed that out.
Axe is a freak. I think he, out of all people, can show the potential of Pikachu; however, I still think Pikachu is underwhelming. Pikachu's Melee placement was pretty much right in the middle of the pack. He was plenty viable, but he was essentially a worse Fox without a shine. I do think that the buffs the PMBR have given him are very strong, but I also believe his metagame won't develop for a very long time. His status as a Fox light still remains. I don't feel like QAC is enough to lift him past a lot of the good melee characters, and I certainly think it won't help too much against some of the best Brawl characters.
About Falco. His recovery just might be the worse in the game. I feel that alone makes him worse than Fox. His shine is definitely better for reflecting projectiles at the moment, but it still lacks the same qualities that make Fox's shine so strong. No shine spike and damage scaling make his shine inferior to Fox's atm.

 

[Nguz95]

I updated my list. Check it out. Zhime moved Zelda up a lot, but I still don't think she is all that good. Metaknight moved up because he's good, and Mr. Game and Watch moved up too. There are a few other changes, but I won't go into too much detail unless you ask me about it.
S Tier
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Wario
4. Wolf
5. Lucas
6. Mario
7. Sheik
8. Metaknight

A Tier
9. Ivysaur
10. Snake
11. Peach
12. Pit
13. Marth
14. Jigglypuff
15. Bowser
16. Zero Suit Samus
17. Donkey Kong
18. Ike
19. Zelda
20. Charizard

B Tier
21. Captain Falcon
22. Mr. Game and Watch
23. Diddy Kong
24. Lucario
25. Ness
26. Link
27. ROB
28. Toon Link
29. Sonic
30. Luigi
31. Pikachu

C Tier
32. Squirtle
33. Ganondorf
34. King Dedede

 

[CaptinMoses]

No one's figured him out yet aside from a few select players. That combined with the fact that he doesn't have anything that stands out (no great KO moves, no amazing recovery, no great ground speed, no substantial aerial game, no above-average range, etc.) makes him a very mediocre character. I'm sure many believe that he has potentially because people are still learning how to use the character and his bananas, but for now he's relatively unexplored.

Solid Answer, thanks

 

[deadjames]

No one's figured him out yet aside from a few select players. That combined with the fact that he doesn't have anything that stands out (no great KO moves, no amazing recovery, no great ground speed, no substantial aerial game, no above-average range, etc.) makes him a very mediocre character. I'm sure many believe that he has potentially because people are still learning how to use the character and his bananas, but for now he's relatively unexplored.

I wish Boss played P:M more often, I've seen him do some pretty amazing things with Diddy.

 

[Nguz95]

I wish Boss played P:M more often, I've seen him do some pretty amazing things with Diddy.

Do you mean the Dr. Mario player in the MDVA area?

 

[deadjames]

Do you mean the Dr. Mario player in the MDVA area?

Yep, he plays Diddy in P:M and he's like the only good one I've seen.

 

[Nguz95]

Interesting. Diddy seems like his kind of character. He's all mind games.

 

[deadjames]

Interesting. Diddy seems like his kind of character. He's all mind games.

Yeah though as a fellow Doc main, I was slightly disappointed to not see him pick up Mario in P:M.

 

[Nguz95]

Maybe PM Mario was too good for him? Since he doesn't play PM seriously, I bet he didn't want to get into bad habits from playing a buffed Mario

 

[deadjames]

Maybe PM Mario was too good for him? Since he doesn't play PM seriously, I bet he didn't want to get into bad habits from playing a buffed Mario

Perhaps.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

F tier:
Samus
Olimar
Ice Climbers
Yoshi
Kirby

 

[DrinkingFood]

F tier:
Samus
Olimar
Ice Climbers
Yoshi
Kirby

you forgot geno and ridley

 

[Deleted member]

I present to you my final tier list as the era of 2.6b draws to a close.

A
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Sheik
4. Wolf
5. Meta Knight

B
6. Marth
7. Wario
8. Ivysaur
9. Mario
10. Snake
11. Peach
12. Lucas
13. Pit
14. Ike
15. Zero Suit Samus

C
16. Donkey Kong
17. Jigglypuff
18. Bowser
19. Link
20. Lucario
21. Charizard
22. Zelda
23. Captain Falcon
24. Toon Link
25. Diddy Kong
26. Pikachu
27. Sonic

D
28. Luigi
29. Ganondorf
30. ROB
31. Squirtle
32. Game & Watch
33. Ness
34. King DDD

 

[BJN39]

Zelda is also really good, but just not quite as good as G&W. Her recovery is long, but not very safe. Her neutral game is also somewhat limited due to her lack of persistent high priority hitboxes. Aerial neutral b is really good and sets up for lots of stuff, but it's kind of predictable and not always viable since you have to jump and wait a little while before using it if you want it to land cancel. Din's fire is also good, but can be neutralized fairly easily by hitting the fireballs. She's obviously pretty good, but I think she's somewhat outclassed by the characters above her.

Ha

haha



....You must not see zeldas recover a lot. Embarrass

 

[NeonApophis]

Zelda's teleport is linear and fairly predictable. It also has 33 frames of start up before you become intangible, which is quite a lot of time for an opponent to hit you if you're starting your teleport near the stage. If your opponent isn't close enough to hit you out of the start up, they can grab the ledge while your teleport is starting to force you to recover high onto the stage, which also leaves Zelda quite vulnerable. It's not as if her teleport is terrible, but it's not as safe as people seem to think.

 

[Jolteon]

Someone explain to me why MK is rated so high in every tier list. Particularly when he's placed in the top 5.

MK's traits are insane.

• 2nd largest sword in the game.
• Tiny hurtbox to boot.
• Unclankable moves, except dash attack which can clank with aerials.
• Ridiculously fast start-up across the board.
• Ridiculously low end-lag too.
• Dair=get on the stage for free (also extends to his recovery if you go high).
• Reactionary dthrow tech chasing.
• bthrow/fthrow are solid positional throws.
• Super good ground movement including a godly dash dance and solid grab.
• Uair is good for juggling and can convert into nair/fair/more uairs.
• Solid edge guards.
• Solid kill moves.

tl;dr He has a sword that's like twice as big as he is that can't be clanked, ridiculous start-up/endlag, godly ground movement, good recovery, good punish game, pretty much everything you would want or need from a character unless you love projectiles.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

MK's traits are insane.

• 2nd largest sword in the game.
• Tiny hurtbox to boot.
• Unclankable moves, except dash attack which can clank with aerials.
• Ridiculously fast start-up across the board.
• Ridiculously low end-lag too.
• Dair=get on the stage for free (also extends to his recovery if you go high).
• Reactionary dthrow tech chasing.
• bthrow/fthrow are solid positional throws.
• Super good ground movement including a godly dash dance and solid grab.
• Uair is good for juggling and can convert into nair/fair/more uairs.
• Solid edge guards.
• Solid kill moves.

tl;dr He has a sword that's like twice as big as he is that can't be clanked, ridiculous start-up/endlag, godly ground movement, good recovery, good punish game, pretty much everything you would want or need from a character unless you love projectiles.

Meta Knight should have blade lasers and the mach tornado attack from some of the games, he`s way to underpowered in brawl/project m

 

[KayB]

Zelda's teleport is linear and fairly predictable. It also has 33 frames of start up before you become intangible, which is quite a lot of time for an opponent to hit you if you're starting your teleport near the stage. If your opponent isn't close enough to hit you out of the start up, they can grab the ledge while your teleport is starting to force you to recover high onto the stage, which also leaves Zelda quite vulnerable. It's not as if her teleport is terrible, but it's not as safe as people seem to think.

Is it still a pretty decent Oos option though?

 

[Scythe]

33 frames bro lol

 

[BJN39]

33 frames bro lol

Yeah, In the air.

The grounded version though only has 27 frames and hits on frame 7.

IDK about OoS though...

Anyways, it may have the traits you mentioned NeonApophis, but any good zelda is not gonna "one trick pony" recover. She can do a whole lot of different angles so she can appear on the ground with less lag, or on the ledge, or a platform (If one exists.) she can place a din's to distract/defend the ledge, she can "no poof" auto grab the ledge is she's above, or she could even just reapper on you and knock you away.

So looking only at Farore's stats, yes. It can look like a meh recovery. But looking at all the options, to me it looks like a very hard to guard recovery.

 

[Oracle]

Alright since okami doesnt look like he wants to do it again, I want to make a final averaged list for 2.6 before 3.0 comes out. Ill say yall have a week (until next monday) to post your tier list, and ill average all the values together and make a mean ranking. If you already posted one then just quote it after this post so I dont have to go back searching

 

[Jolteon]

[Collapse=2.6b tier list]S tier:

1. Fox
2. Metaknight
3. Wolf
4. Falco
5. Sheik
6. Peach

A tier:

7. Ivysaur
8. Wario
9. Pit
10. Toon Link

B tier:

11. Lucas
12. Lucario
13. Mario
14. Snake
15. Link
16. Marth

C tier:

17. Donkey Kong
18. Mr. Game and Watch
19. Ike
20. ROB
21. Zero Suit Samus
22. Charizard

D tier:

23. Sonic
24. Diddy Kong
25. Captain Falcon
26. King Dedede
27. Bowser
28. Pikachu

E tier:

29. Zelda
30. Ness
31. Jigglypuff
32. Squirtle
33. Luigi
34. Ganondorf[/collapse]

Quote.

 

[Tlock]

Spoiler

Top
1 Fox
2 Falco
3 Shiek
4 Wolf
5 MK
6 Ivy
7 Wario
8 Marth
9 Mario


High
10 Snake
11 Peach
12 Pit
13 Lucas
14 Falcon
15 Bowser
16 Lucario
17 Toon Link

Mid
18 ZZS
19 Ike
20 Donkey Kong
21 Zelda
22 Rob
23 Link
24 Puff
25 Sonic
26 Charizard

Low
27 Luigi
28 Ness
29 G&W
30 Pikachu
31 Diddy Kong
32 Squirtle
33 DDD
34 Ganondorf

The heck smashboards, why 3 spoilers?

 

[Deleted member]

idk what the actual tier list is for this game, but i'm pretty sure that fox falco wolf sheik pit MK are the top 6, no order.

 

[DMG]

I'll order that

FOX

AAAAAAAA

HE'LL SAVE EVERY ONE OF US!

...

Rest of list

 

[Plum]

but dmg Fox is poised to take over the world in the year 20XX
he will finally stand victorious in the harmonic convergence
10000 years of darkness will envelop the world

 

[DMG]

No see, at first he saves us, but the burden becomes too much to handle. Like the exploitation of Superman to solve Humanity's problems. Dark times befall Humanity once again, and our Saviour does not heed our prayers. The gods take pity, and cast our World to the dark depths of the Sea, never to resurface again...

 

[9bit]

I'll order that

FOX

AAAAAAAA

HE'LL SAVE EVERY ONE OF US!

...

Rest of list

I imagine there are some poor souls out there that won't understand this... and we can't have that happening.

idk what the actual tier list is for this game, but i'm pretty sure that fox falco wolf sheik pit MK are the top 6, no order.

Top 5 being Fox, Falco, Wolf, Sheik, and MK I can see, but Pit is an interesting addition. Don't think I've seen him put that high recently, if ever. Of course, the only Pit I've ever really seen do crazy stuff was Armada, and that was a long time ago.

 

[Ogopogo]

I remember M2K thinks that Sheik isn't amazing in PM. Can anyone refresh my memory on why he thinks that?

 

[Nguz95]

I remember M2K thinks that Sheik isn't amazing in PM. Can anyone refresh my memory on why he thinks that?

Grab game isn't as good. Also, her recovery is comparatively poor unless you're M2K.