why has link so strong neutral in you guys opnion? If someone says strong neutral in smash64 I think of caracthers like pika and kirby etc. Link aint close to them neutral or not. Strong neutral is to have many possibilitys in many situations imo. He cant get hit, he has a lousy grab, and is depending on running away and be really precise with his projectiles, which still are worse than fox and mario. Sure he has a better neutral than luigi, but luigi has still far better recovery, gimp potential and finisher. Link has only a chance to dominate neutral game vs the worst caracthers. Combine that with his horrible recovery, you find him in the bottom.
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Tier List Discussion as Apex's interesting top 8 is over
- Thread starter KoRoBeNiKi
- Start date
SheerMadness
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2005
- Messages
- 4,781
Olikus spitting the truth.
Link's "good" neutral game requires space which he doesn't have on DL.
Link's "good" neutral game requires space which he doesn't have on DL.
Sedda
Smash Champion
- yeah he's not close to kirby or pika in the neutral, which is why he's not higher up the list. things get tough for him against the high tiers, but you yourself said that he can dominate the neutral vs the "worst characters." Being susceptible to gimps shouldn't automatically mean that he should be placed lower than the characters he can "dominate," if you're gonna put it that way.
- youre overgeneralizing the bit about his projectiles. I don't know exactly what you mean by him having to "be really precise with his projectiles," because that could mean a million things, though I'm guessing you mean the need to be precise to HIT (?). Hitting opponents with projectiles, especially Link's, is a small part of their overall function anyway. Most of the time, you should be trying to use them to cut options out from your opponent temporarily to aid you in the neutral, but even if we were speaking very generally, I personally still prefer Link's projectiles over Mario's. Yeah, Fox laser is orgasmic, but saying that Link's projectiles aren't as good as the best in the game isn't going to discount how amazing they are at a bunch of different things. They also provide a ridiculous amount of cover for edgeguarding several characters which nobody talks about, AND you can even use them to combo at limited instances
You didn't even mention his slow jump, which is imo a much worse characteristic to have than his grab. That sucks really badly against characters that can get up close really quickly like the high tiers, but just because it's not Hyrule doesn't mean that you can't keep your distance against the lower tiers.
BananaBolts
I find you quite appealing
I think the issue with Link's neutral is that a lot of people try to play him the same way on DL as they did on Hyrule... it just doesn't work that way. You can't always have your bomb and boomerang out simultaneously. You have to stop some approaches with nair/bair; you can't sit back and be totally defensive like you were on Hyrule. Uair or utilt covers platform drops and dair covers approaches from below. Bouncing off of the opponent often gets you to a platform which increases the viability of tech chase follow-ups on dair in neutral. Boomerang covers platform techs really well and boomerang boosting off of a platform has more utility on DL. Speaking of tech chases, fair usually covers all three tech options on the side platforms.
Link's biggest problem on DL, from what I've observed, is getting stuck on the side platforms when his opponent is below him. His slower jump squat can be detrimental to his stock and sitting in shield is equally bad unless you plan to get pushed off to retaliate. I think you can plat drop, instantly double jump, and dair while retreating to the top platform. It should be faster than a normal jump but I could be wrong... now I have to go searching for the frame data.
I'll say this for emphasis: don't try to play Link on DL like you do on Hyrule
Link's biggest problem on DL, from what I've observed, is getting stuck on the side platforms when his opponent is below him. His slower jump squat can be detrimental to his stock and sitting in shield is equally bad unless you plan to get pushed off to retaliate. I think you can plat drop, instantly double jump, and dair while retreating to the top platform. It should be faster than a normal jump but I could be wrong... now I have to go searching for the frame data.
I'll say this for emphasis: don't try to play Link on DL like you do on Hyrule
he can dominate the worst, but not neseseraly. Its not like his neutral game is far better than the low tiers. WHat I mean with really precise is that they are very easy to dodge and get around most of the time. If you pressior link fast enough he will get trouble with even get the bombs out. I think he is better than the low tiers on hyrule though.
blind nerds, blind i say
Is he doing drunksmash again?
Bark Sanchez
Smash Apprentice
What a terrible list who let her vote
i didnt put much thought into anyone after puff, it was just "who do i lose to the most"
actually nvm i beat fireblasters link but not his samus. ill switch them
actually nvm i beat fireblasters link but not his samus. ill switch them
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Sedda
Smash Champion
that's not his tier list shears pls
stop drinking
stop drinking
Shears
Smash Master
The 19th amendment
i live in canada nerd
Fine, the Act to confer the Electoral Franchise upon Women
asianaussie
Smash Hero
link's neutral is leaps and bounds above everyone below mario
who do you main
Antwon420
Smash Apprentice
Definitely not true. lol it's easy to just combo somebody and then just get gimped cause your recovery sucks
Is this a troll? Because how can u say that pikachu is not better than link
I'd say it depends on the stage. Jiggs suck vs pika on DL but isn't to bad on hyrule. Same with the rest of the characters so it's hard to say
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I don't see what Jiggs can do on Hyrule if Pikachu has the lead and decides to camp.
asianaussie
Smash Hero
people tend to UNDERESTIMATE their mains
link has great neutral tools and if you don't think so you need to play better links
his major issue is that he's not allowed to make mistakes in neutral, not that his neutral is bad
...And then there's The Maafia
asianaussie
Smash Hero
yeah that guy is like the anti han solo
Antwon420
Smash Apprentice
Well I'm saying it's only better for jiggly because it a bigger stage, and jiggly isn't as easily edge guarded compared to DL. And if pika camps, wait him out. Or try to teleport into a move. That's not really any fun though just sitting there. That's why hyrule is a controversial map.
I know, that is why the staage is banned.
Edgeguarding isn't the problem for Pikachu in this matchup, it's the early rest deaths that are potentially nullified by it being Hyrule.
Edgeguarding isn't the problem for Pikachu in this matchup, it's the early rest deaths that are potentially nullified by it being Hyrule.
Antwon420
Smash Apprentice
Wait I'm confused. I'm saying the it's hard for jiggly to recover vs pikachu. And I don't know what you mean about the rest combos and hyrule.
jigglypuff can recover?
Antwon420
Smash Apprentice
If you're the best jiggly in the world like me you can.
not to derail or anything but im sure not even you could change Jiggly's up B into a recovery
updated stats
Antwon420
Smash Apprentice
Alright well I'm not sure if im being trolled or not, but you do realize using Jigglys jumps and b attack help move him back on stage to recover right... Answering the question you had which was, jiggs can recover?
In an extremely unforgiving game, not being able to make mistakes in neutral is what makes him so low on the tier list. Think of it. The only reason fox is put several spots below pika by most people is basically because he has a bad recovery, while pika has the best.
asianaussie
Smash Hero
falcon is also not allowed to make many mistakes on dreamland but he is unanimously top 3? that's really not the issue here and you shouldn't pretend it's the only reason
the reason link is not a particularly good character is a combination of things, most notably the fact he is slow as ****
he's still better than dudes like luigi because luigi has garbage neutral in comparison to basically everyone but jigglypuff and arguably ness, and danker kang is, as previously discussed, fat af (though arguably better than link? idk)
the reason link is not a particularly good character is a combination of things, most notably the fact he is slow as ****
he's still better than dudes like luigi because luigi has garbage neutral in comparison to basically everyone but jigglypuff and arguably ness, and danker kang is, as previously discussed, fat af (though arguably better than link? idk)
Morin0
Smash Lord
I actually prefer DL for Link. In DL, I can gimp characters. I'd take that over not being able to run around and throw projectiles. 
The platforms are also really advantageous for Link. (Unless you happen to be on top and the other character is at the bottom.)
It's just that you can't afford to make mistakes.
The platforms are also really advantageous for Link. (Unless you happen to be on top and the other character is at the bottom.)It's just that you can't afford to make mistakes.
falcon is not unanimously top 3. When the metagame evolves, I think both fox and yoshi can surpass him.
I know its a combination of things, but you cant deny that if he had a better recovery he would be several spots higher on the tier list.
like 9 instead of 12 >=)
THE_MAAFIA
Smash Ace
Yea but unlike link, the other characters like ness, puff, luigi, and falcon have very easy-to-perform combos that can lead to a quick stock, unlike link where usually his combos are situational and when pulled off don't usually result in a death
Edit: Fixed the wording so you guys don't get confused by accident
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asianaussie
Smash Hero
if you think ness's combos are easy while link's aren't, you are clearly playing way too much ness
like seriously every u-tilt leads into either an edgeguard situation )especially on DL) or a good situation where you can either make some space or threaten with a big-ass sword
not to mention link actually gets in easily and has way better space control when compared to everyone you listed (aside from falcon)
like seriously every u-tilt leads into either an edgeguard situation )especially on DL) or a good situation where you can either make some space or threaten with a big-ass sword
not to mention link actually gets in easily and has way better space control when compared to everyone you listed (aside from falcon)
yeah and im sure ness is good if you know how to use him
im confused, given this is not actually what you were just arguing