Tier List Discussion as Apex's interesting top 8 is over

[SheerMadness]

Luigi is bad. But Link is worse on dreamland. I can't even fathom how some of you are putting him as high as 9th.

He literally sees 0 play. Has ANYONE picked Link for even 1 match during the last 2 years at Zenith or Apex? I wouldn't be at all shocked if that answer was a no (only person I can think that might have is Firo?).

Since the hyrule ban the poor guy just doesn't have the speed or space to defend himself from being gimped at miniscule percentages.

Nor does he have a reliable gimp game himself. A truly awful combination when 95% of our tourney matches are taking place on dreamland.

 

[Shears]

Except that my argument isn't "Mario is better than luigi so luigi is bad". My argument is:

Mario would be a really bad character without these tools or other tools of equal value to replace them
Luigi is a Mario clone
Luigi doesn't have these tools or other tools of equal value to replace them
Therefore Luigi is a really bad character

If P then Q
P
Therefore Q

Literally logic

The problem with your statement is the soundness of your first premise. Your logic fails to show that the lacking of those tools makes Luigi inherently bad, simply that he is worse than Mario. A comparison of Luigi vs Samus, Link, DK, and Ness is something that shows he is the worst or one of the worst. I have a lot of respect for you fire and I usually agree with your argumentative proofs but your logic here has a gap and I'm not sure how much you've done in discrete math or other logic but you include within your premises the objects Luigi and Mario then in your conclusive claim include the universal set and say because of the interactions and relationships these two objects and premises share, therefore one is comparatively worse than all objects in the universal set of smash.

If X is less than 100 its a small number
X and Y are both numbers
Y is less than 100
Y is a small number

I've basically replaced the names of the objects to be X and Y, replaced tools with 100, and bad with small. What makes my logic not sound is that less than 100 being small is subjective and not proven. The universal set is not defined nor are the parameters of which to compare 100 against. Certainly Y is smaller than X but to say it is inherently small is not sound. There is no way, given the proof, to know if the first premise is true.

 

[Sedda]

link has a much better neutral than luigi and ness imo

i dont see how a bad recovery automatically means he's worse than them just cuz DL.

i mean, yeah, he'd be way better on stage if he had a regular grab and a faster jump, but he has way more than luigi at the very least

That feel when fox main

you main kirby. stop saying that youre a fox main

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

http://smashboards.com/threads/serious-tier-list-order-of-characters-only-dreamland-based.397243/

Post here if you have made up your mind, read the topic title and etc.

Luigi is bad. But Link is worse on dreamland. I can't even fathom how some of you are putting him as high as 9th.

He literally sees 0 play. Has ANYONE picked Link for even 1 match during the last 2 years at Zenith or Apex? I wouldn't be at all shocked if that answer was a no (only person I can think that might have is Firo?).

Since the hyrule ban the poor guy just doesn't have the speed or space to defend himself from being gimped at miniscule percentages.

Nor does he have a reliable gimp game himself. A truly awful combination when 95% of our tourney matches are taking place on dreamland.

At least he has pressure unlike a certain other character being discussed.

 

[Fireblaster]

The problem with your statement is the soundness of your first premise. Your logic fails to show that the lacking of those tools makes Luigi inherently bad, simply that he is worse than Mario. A comparison of Luigi vs Samus, Link, DK, and Ness is something that shows he is the worst or one of the worst. I have a lot of respect for you fire and I usually agree with your argumentative proofs but your logic here has a gap and I'm not sure how much you've done in discrete math or other logic but you include within your premises the objects Luigi and Mario then in your conclusive claim include the universal set and say because of the interactions and relationships these two objects and premises share, therefore one is comparatively worse than all objects in the universal set of smash.

If X is less than 100 its a small number
X and Y are both numbers
Y is less than 100
Y is a small number

I've basically replaced the names of the objects to be X and Y, replaced tools with 100, and bad with small. What makes my logic not sound is that less than 100 being small is subjective and not proven. The universal set is not defined nor are the parameters of which to compare 100 against. Certainly Y is smaller than X but to say it is inherently small is not sound. There is no way, given the proof, to know if the first premise is true.

The first premise is true given the fact that luigi is a MARIO CLONE with factually inferior properties. Luigi is a slower mario, both vertically and horizontally. Luigi has a worse shorthop (having a larger shorthop with no situational gains like perfect platform landing is statistically inferior and I'm willing to defend this point if you want to argue it). Since there are no benefits to having a lower speed limit than mario, within the scopes of everything they DO share it's pretty easy to argue that while mario will have pros and cons in his gameplay, luigi will also share the same pros and cons with the only difference being that luigi can have less pros and more cons.

Either way, Luigi's slowness is enough to put him at low and even bottom tier. I was mostly arguing against the whole "you can't just say he's a worse mario" point because I believe it IS a legitimate reason to put luigi lower, specially when he's being considered inferior to a character that is slowly moving down the tier list the last couple of years.

 

[Saltsizzle]

I think the obvious conclusion that can be reached is that we need more low tier tournaments to figure out where those characters belong on the tier list.

 

[Shears]

Mario would be a really bad character without these tools or other tools of equal value to replace them

This is subjective/opinion. The assumption of this statement is necessary for your conclusion to be true, but the problem is assuming the premise to be true. A lot of characters that you would consider better than Mario don't have a lot of the same tools as Mario and yet they are not really bad characters. A better statement that I think can more easily be agreed upon as sound is this:

Mario would be a much worse character without these tools or other tools of equal value to replace them
Luigi is a Mario clone
Luigi doesn't have these tools or other tools of equal value to replace them
Therefore Luigi is a much worse character

All this does is make Luigi be below Mario on the tier list. Is last below Mario? Yes, but so is just one spot below. To include characters in between Mario and Luigi on the tier list these characters must be included in your logic argument and must have a clear relationship defined that objectively outlines what they have and what makes them better. Going by your initial logic statement, there is a jump you're making by saying the lack of tools makes him bad and you give nothing to prove that lacking those tools makes him bad other than the assumption that the statement is true. What you have provided is proof that lacking those tools makes him worse than Mario, but again, worse than Mario doesn't mean worst character on the roster, more proof is needed to show Luigi is inherently bad.

His slowness is definitely an objective measure that helps the case of him being the worst, and in my opinion doesn't define him to be. Considering there is more to the game than simply speed, he has better recovery and edge guarding options than characters ranked above him, and even a better projectile than some (as outlined by maafia) but those tend to be ignored because of the stigmas against Luigi.


I really think if tier lists are going to be made then there needs to be more objective measures used than opinions and how people feel doing individual eye tests against each character. Here are metrics I feel have more substance in ranking characters, and the weight of these metrics can be discussed separately: average tournament placement, character matchup score (calculated by quantifying matchup favorability and averaging all matchups), complexity score, difficult to operation score.

 

[The Star King]

there are a lot of words in this thread

luigi is bad lol

 

[SheerMadness]

I'm genuinely curious if Link even saw 1 tourney match the past 2 Apex/Zenith.

To me it speaks volumes that no one is willing to touch him when tourney time rolls around.

Tourney results are a fairly accurate indicator of character rankings IMO (for all smash games) and Link doesn't even have bad results. He has NO results lol.

At least people are willing to brave Luigi in tourney. He's got a couple decent match ups on dreamland.

 

[The Star King]

At least people are willing to brave Luigi in tourney.

That's news to me.

 

[Kahnu]

That's news to me.

lol no its not SK

@ THE_MAAFIA

lmao

 

[The Star King]

1 person isn't people.

 

[Kahnu]

My current thoughts on the "right" order:

Fox
Pikachu
Kirby
Falcon

Yoshi
Mario

Link
Jigglypuff
DK
Ness
Luigi
Samus

Link > Jiggly is news to me, firo.

Anyways what I'm seeing is basically the same tier list with minor changes and then a messed up bottom four.
I think Fireblaster said this already but you can order them any way you want and make a good argument for it.

 

[Kahnu]

1 person isn't people.

isnt @ V Villainy a luigi main?

and dont @Frogles and @WOTG use luigi?

 

[The Star King]

First of all we're talking about people using him in tourney

Second of all, that's not what tagging people is for and you should stop

Third of all don't talk to me

 

[Kahnu]

First of all we're talking about people using him in tourney

Second of all, that's not what tagging people is for and you should stop

Third of all don't talk to me

isai also plays luigi at tourneys

 

[Capos]

1 person isn't people.

Does it have to be mains or can it include secondaries? Ybombb and Ruoka have gone luigi in tourney.

 

[Sedda]

Sheer, why do you always start with "how many people use link in tourney??"

i dont remember a single DK at apex. maybe he should be last, then?

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

i love smash uses dk, there are some others also.

 

[SheerMadness]

DK definitely suffers from the same representation affliction, just not as severe a case as Koro has pointed out.

Personally I'd struggle placing DK, Ness, and Luigi.

Link is a clear 12th IMO. And Samus has the best case for 8th as far as I can tell.

 

[Kahnu]

This basically messes the whole bottom four up..

Virtually nobody plays them so we have to guess and estimate their position on tier list.
It sucks really, play more low tiers guys!

 

[Olikus]

koro is really enjoying tier list.

 

[Villainy]

Okay then let's be objective.

neutral game is incredibly poor. has to play defensively a lot and will often get cornered into a camping position.

• Luigi's fireballs are slower than mario's and go horizontal. This means that luigi's fireballs are much less useful on his mediocre recovery than mario's. Luigi can't use them like mario from a higher position to create projectile pressure. It also means that a lot of techchases and traps that mario has with fireballs are impossible with luigi. In conclusion, instead of being an amazing tool, luigi's fireballs are only a mild annoyance.
• Luigi's upB is just an awful move if you're not killing with it. Zero knockback means that unless your opponent is way out of position, luigi is most likely going to get punished even if he hits his opponent with it. This gives the move much more risk than mario's upB as a reversal (a "get off of me" move during shield pressure/frame traps) because mario's upB at least causes some knockback and hitstun. Luigi's recovery suffers because of this same reason.
• Luigi does have a bigger double jump than mario, which can allow him to recovery a better distance than mario. However, luigi ultimately suffers more from his movement being so slow that his recovery path is predictable and very linear. Along with the inferior fireballs, it is a lot safer to jump off stage and edgeguard a luigi than it is to do the same to mario.
• Luigi's dash attack is a gimmick
• Mario has a downtilt that allows him to prevent ledge sweetspots by recovering opponents from a safe distance where he can't be hit back. Luigi does not have this capability.
• Luigi's shorthop is massive and cannot be used to create shield pressure or consistently do low percent combos like mario can.
• Luigi is much worse at edgeguarding because of his inverted throws. While most characters can ledgehog and get up from the ledge to give a strong backthrow to opponents that landed on stage with their up B's, a luigi attempting to do the same will be met with a weak throw that will most likely give them an easier recovery distance than the one they just attempted.

I agree with pretty much everything fireblaster said here...
Something to add though: Even though mario is overall a better character, I think Luigi does better in the puff matchup, and (maybe) the samsus matchup.

 

[MrMarbles]

Luigi is bad. But Link is worse on dreamland. I can't even fathom how some of you are putting him as high as 9th.

He literally sees 0 play. Has ANYONE picked Link for even 1 match during the last 2 years at Zenith or Apex? I wouldn't be at all shocked if that answer was a no (only person I can think that might have is Firo?).

Since the hyrule ban the poor guy just doesn't have the speed or space to defend himself from being gimped at miniscule percentages.

Nor does he have a reliable gimp game himself. A truly awful combination when 95% of our tourney matches are taking place on dreamland.

im not gonna say link is good but i think he has the tools to space well in certain match-ups on dreamland. I was playing this REALLY annoying link online yesterday who would do nothing but run away and projectile (poop is good i think lol) anyways when i was playing as ness there was NOTHING i could do about it. Even when i played faster characters it was very hard to catch link to even get a grab/hit. not that he is good but i think he is able to outspace a lot of characters with bad projectiles on dreamland

 

[asianaussie]

ok i promised myself i wouldnt get into this but i do want to say

matchups between low tiers in no way determine where each low tier should be placed

dk is fat, luigi sucks and link is a balla

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

People forget when going over this stuff that it really does not matter if Luigi does well vs. those characters as well, who uses said characters.

It kinda matters more who does better vs. the higher tiers as well.

 

[THE_MAAFIA]

1
2
3
4
5

gap

6
7
8
9
10
11

gap because **** luigi

12

My luigi would like to have a word with you...

 

[Sedda]

**** luigi omg

get over it guys

 

[Kahnu]

**** luigi omg

get over it guys

**** link

get over it guys

 

[Mr Bushido]

KILL LUIGI

 

[Kahnu]

KILL LUIGI

killuigi

Kero is banned, but he asked me to post this on here:

View attachment 45886

WOW Falcon > Kirby is a REALLY interesting choice.

 

[Sedda]

WOW Falcon > Kirby is a REALLY interesting choice.

you should post discussions on this thread, but not really. he does really well against pikachu and his only "bad" matchup is kirby.

tbh im surprised kero didnt put him as #1 since he's always said that falcon is the best.

 

[Morin0]

I wonder how much influence your placement decisions have after being exposed to the placement decisions of others. Would I be more inclined to put Fox over Falcon because Isai's tier list says so? WHO KNOWS

 

[The Star King]

I was definitely at least a little bit influenced by a few other top tier players on some of these placements.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I still think about it and all things considered come to my own decision, they just give me other viewpoints to consider.

 

[Sedda]

I thought Kero claimed Falcon is the best character in the game? :^)

This is what Kero said after he saw that I was surprised that he didn't have Falcon at #1:

"In response to your post about me not putting falcon 1, i think falcon has the advantage in every match up in the game (except Kirby on Congo) but i think pika has a much easier time beating the lower tiered characters then falcon does"

After seeing the dumpling (online japanese falcon) vs moyashi matches that Karajan linked Mixa and I last year, I think Kirby vs Falcon seems fairly even on DL. From watching those matches, I get the impression that it's one of those matchups where Kirby can just kinda trash on Falcon, but at the highest level, Falcon isn't going to let them get away with anything. That was the Japanese version, so maybe it's still in favor of Kirby, but either way falcon can kill kirby off a grab. I have to find the matches again, but that session had the most tense neutral game that I've ever seen.

Even then, that was just one particular instance.

 

[Morin0]

lol @ koro's tiers because people aren't following the rules

pce out

 

[Bark Sanchez]

@rainshifter 's avatar

 

[Olikus]

also, here's Isai's tier list from the other thread, which should obviously be part of this

That wasnt isais tier list, but which caracther he personally was best with from best to worst.

 

[The Star King]

That wasnt isais tier list, but which caracther he personally was best with from best to worst.

??????

No

He posted in the tier list thread.

Do you really think he would put his Link second to last

 

[BananaBolts]

For a game that heavily rewards solid neutral play, I'm surprised everyone immediately calls Link out on his bad recovery instead of weighing his neutral in their decisions. C'mon. Link has a great neutral game even on DL. Also, if you're getting grabbed and back thrown offstage as Link, then you're doing something terribly wrong in neutral.