Tier List Discussion as Apex's interesting top 8 is over

[The Prince L]

Pikachu has a slight edge over Kirby.

 

[Deleted member]

excuse me, i am 'serious.' but thanx.

 

[Kahnu]

What I am noting is this: If you are being serious, use the other thread. Going to get madao to move all of these posts, lol.

got madao on it since he is my slave friend

 

[Technical_Knockout]

your thread homie, no problem... i'm fine with having this tier list left out.

i forgive you for calling my list silly, star king, because i understand your ire about it (although i worked very hard on it for a couple of hours, and that was hurtful). you're still wrong about the invisible bombs though... my method does have easier timing. also, way to ignore komotonoto's list to bash on mine. is it because i put yoshi third instead of first?

i would like to clarify a few things though, & answer the criticisms, which i consider fair due to how harsh you guys have come down on me.

my original intention was to WRITE TWO LISTS: one an ideal to strive for, and the second a more realistic 'where we're at now' one, similar to an earlier poster. i got off work at 10 pm and didn't have time to come back to edit the post until now, as i had to get some sleep to prepare for an earlier shift today. i posted before it was completed so i wouldn't lose my work.

by pika's infinite up + b ledge stall being 'punished accordingly', i meant by a tournament moderator, for you know STALLING.

i also believe that there IS value in determining absolutely best characters, in order to know where the metagame development for each may be lacking (analogously to a speedrunner consulting a tool-assisted superplay for best strats in his route).

for morin0 & anyone else wondering why i put fox & ness in the 1 & 2 slots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkBuX1tyj6s
they're just too fast with best play.

i think we can all agree that we love this great game... that's the reason that i'm wanting to push for more metagame development--to see how close we can get to the holy grail of game theory: total control. we have a long way to go, but i see no reason why we can't approximate perfect play if we keep at it. look how good they're getting in japan, brazil, chile, peru...

i'll write my second list up after work... that's it. peace out fellow smash enthusiasts!!

 

[Fireblaster]

by pika's infinite up + b ledge stall being 'punished accordingly', i meant by a tournament moderator, for you know STALLING.

upB stalling is not something that can be punished by a TO or enforced as a rule. Period.

i also believe that there IS value in determining absolutely best characters, in order to know where the metagame development for each may be lacking (analogously to a speedrunner consulting a tool-assisted superplay for best strats in his route).

for morin0 & anyone else wondering why i put fox & ness in the 1 & 2 slots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkBuX1tyj6s
they're just too fast with best play.

Yeah... Except in a true TAS metagame you're assuming that anyone would get hit. Second, you're using a TAS example against lvl 9 bots. Third, in a TAS metagame even if someone DID get hit they'd smash DI to the other side of the universe and no true combos would exist.

Like I said before, this isn't chess or any of that nonsense. "Perfect play" or "tas like levels" is not something that can be argued or applied to tier lists or tournament play.

 

[The Star King]

i forgive you for calling my list silly, star king, because i understand your ire about it (although i worked very hard on it for a couple of hours, and that was hurtful). you're still wrong about the invisible bombs though... my method does have easier timing. also, way to ignore komotonoto's list to bash on mine. is it because i put yoshi third instead of first?

Sorry if I was hurtful but I didn't wanna say nothing.

First of all I ignored Komo's list because it's an obvious joke list that people will just roll their eyes at and scroll past, while yours seemed to be a serious attempt at a list.

Second of all the invisible bombs have nothing to do with this and I'm not sure why you brought it up... and I'm pretty sure they have equal timings because picking up items should immediately move the hitbox to your hand regardless of differences in distance (unless you are somehow sure that picking up items doesn't work that way, or have verified that your method has a more lenient window through TAS testing?), and the only difference distance should make is you should be far enough to avoid the hitbox of the bomb on the ground, yet close enough to pick it up, which both of our methods fulfill but seriously that's besides the point.

 

[Kahnu]

Sorry if I was hurtful but I didn't wanna say nothing.

First of all I ignored Komo's list because it's an obvious joke list that people will just roll their eyes at and scroll past, while yours seemed to be a serious attempt at a list.

Second of all the invisible bombs have nothing to do with this and I'm not sure why you brought it up... and I'm pretty sure they have equal timings because picking up items should immediately move the hitbox to your hand regardless of differences in distance (unless you are somehow sure that picking up items doesn't work that way, or have verified that your method has a more lenient window through TAS testing?), and the only difference distance should make is you should be far enough to avoid the hitbox of the bomb on the ground, yet close enough to pick it up, which both of our methods fulfill but seriously that's besides the point.

The Flame King

 

[Technical_Knockout]

did you even try my way and compare or did you just see my first post on here and hop into elitist mode? let's take a poll if you wanna keep arguing about it without testing for yourself.

 

[Kahnu]

did you even try my way and compare or did you just see my first post on here and hop into elitist mode? let's take a poll if you wanna keep arguing about it without testing for yourself.

Your theoretical tier lists don't make sense. Don't try to argue how you thought Link was High Mid-tier

 

[Technical_Knockout]

alright guys, been sick the last few days, so i'm not really my usual key-low g self. let's make a fresh start ok? i'd really like to be a part of this community...

star king: i got on and re-tested it; both methods are fine. i was wrong & i'm sorry for the misunderstanding that i had about it.

fireblaster: i know that you want good input for the tier list, and you have valid points about tas limitations. i like to dream about potential & get carried away sometimes... your avatar is cool too i'm probably gonna vote for it.

kahnu: i don't like how you treat the nooblets, but i get that they can be exasperating. you have a pretty slick dk; he's one of my favorite characters as well.

koro: sorry for misusing your thread, and thanks for being lenient with me about it. let's get some chess in someday yeah!

as for link well i think banze, isai & tas show that he can be a beast with his projectiles & solid neutral, but i'm probably biased because he was my first character & he's fun to play.

we square?

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

If I was to make a TAS list, where the numbers listed together

Most viable, in this probable order

1st/2nd/3rd: [Yoshi/foxNess]

All three benefit incredibly by TAS, Yoshi the most

Viable: due to various dumb stuff
4th: Pika: Up B stalls negate the rest of the cast below

Best of the unviable: Combo ability, regardless of DI, shield breaks, still unviable
5th: Kirby
6th: Falcon
7th: Mario

Low nviable: I grouped by combo ability (with heavy DI) along with shield break ability. They are still terrible though.
8th: Luigi
9th: Jiggles

Useless: See above, but even worse, slow moves means your character sucks in TAS.
10th: Link
11th DK
12th: Samus

My list here is based on some things that matter the most in TAS:
1. Techniques that are virtually TAS only
2. Characters that can abuse said techniques the most
3. Speed of moves or priority
4. Ability to combo regardless of massive DI

 

[Kahnu]

If I was to make a TAS list, where the numbers listed together

Most viable, in this probable order

1st/2nd/3rd: [Yoshi/foxNess]

All three benefit incredibly by TAS, Yoshi the most

Viable: due to various dumb stuff
4th: Pika: Up B stalls negate the rest of the cast below

Best of the unviable: Combo ability, regardless of DI, shield breaks, still unviable
5th: Kirby
6th: Falcon
7th: Mario

Low nviable: I grouped by combo ability (with heavy DI) along with shield break ability. They are still terrible though.
8th: Luigi
9th: Jiggles

Useless: See above, but even worse, slow moves means your character sucks in TAS.
10th: Link
11th DK
12th: Samus

My list here is based on some things that matter the most in TAS:
1. Techniques that are virtually TAS only
2. Characters that can abuse said techniques the most
3. Speed of moves or priority
4. Ability to combo regardless of massive DI

how does any character 'suck' at tas?
its goddamned TAS
perfect gameplay

TAS =/= Full capability

its just perfectly playing them

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

how does any character 'suck' at tas?
its goddamned TAS
perfect gameplay

TAS =/= Full capability

its just perfectly playing them

Between two TAS level players, the worse character is still worse.

Samus has no options if that character is facing a character with an incredible amount options, no number of hilarious TAS reads makes Samus good.

 

[Kahnu]

Between two TAS level players, the worse character is still worse.

Samus has no options if that character is facing a character with an incredible amount options, no number of hilarious TAS reads makes Samus good.

i guess i just dont understand what the tier list means then

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

i guess i just dont understand what the tier list means then

It's less of a tier list, more of a:

What character could be abused the best via TAS

 

[Technical_Knockout]

imagine two smash 64 experts playing a 5-stock dreamland game on an emulator, inputting their moves frame-by-frame on a computer rather than using a controller.

they would each see the game playing out in uber-slow motion as they input their moves simultaneously, have the opportunity of seeing their opponent's move, and then repeating the process until someone lost... stalling rules or time limits could be enforced if necessary.

the tas tier list would be the characters ranked by highest score if those 2 guys (isai & jousuke, preferably!) played a complete round-robin tournament in the same way, each character facing off against the opponent's entire cast.

 

[asianaussie]

there is no ****ing TAS tier list stop it koro

even worse you had luigi above link in a list

a real TAS tier list would be

top:
whoever the TASer wants to win

bottom:
whoever the TAS player wants to lose
luigi

 

[Kahnu]

there is no ****ing TAS tier list stop it koro

even worse you had luigi above link in a list

a real TAS tier list would be

top:
whoever the TASer wants to win

bottom:
whoever the TAS player wants to lose
luigi

luigi is better than link

 

[asianaussie]

and my memes are better than yours

 

[Kahnu]

and my memes are better than yours

If I was to make a TAS list, where the numbers listed together

Most viable, in this probable order

1st/2nd/3rd: [Yoshi/foxNess]

All three benefit incredibly by TAS, Yoshi the most

Viable: due to various dumb stuff
4th: Pika: Up B stalls negate the rest of the cast below

Best of the unviable: Combo ability, regardless of DI, shield breaks, still unviable
5th: Kirby
6th: Falcon
7th: Mario

Low nviable: I grouped by combo ability (with heavy DI) along with shield break ability. They are still terrible though.
8th: Luigi
9th: Jiggles

Useless: See above, but even worse, slow moves means your character sucks in TAS.
10th: Link
11th DK
12th: Samus

My list here is based on some things that matter the most in TAS:
1. Techniques that are virtually TAS only
2. Characters that can abuse said techniques the most
3. Speed of moves or priority
4. Ability to combo regardless of massive DI

wait wtf?

how is DK lower than link?
if this is TAS then you should know half of DK's moves all have invincibility frames

nerd

@ KoRoBeNiKi

 

[pidgezero_one]

 

[Technical_Knockout]

i could live with that list.

 

[T Brett]

I agree, but jiggs > mario just makes sense at top level play, no?
Look at isai and boom's puffs, so so good. Plus better matchups against the top tiers than mario does imo

edit: relevant http://ask.fm/jouske/answer/123846016611

 

[Technical_Knockout]

yeah i'd put puff above mario... i really wanna put dk on the bottom too, because i've mained link, ness & luigi in the past & i know their potential... but dk can really wreck with that throw despite his speed & girth and this is dreamland after all....

 

[Saltsizzle]

I agree, but jiggs > mario just makes sense at top level play, no?
Look at isai and boom's puffs, so so good. Plus better matchups against the top tiers than mario does imo

edit: relevant http://ask.fm/jouske/answer/123846016611

Puff and mario are hard to gauge because Mario has very middle of the road matchups with the cast (justifying his placement in middle of the list) while jigglypuff has decent matchups against high tiers and some hard counters and difficult matchups against the low tiers (averaging to middle of the list). I guess it just depends on how much emphasis you place on consistency across the board or better vs characters that people play more.

 

[Sedda]

puff's "hard" low tier matchups arent that bad. imo luigi and samus do beat her, but it's not so bad that she needs to be put under mario, especially when you consider how bad something like pika-mario is

 

[Saltsizzle]

puff's "hard" low tier matchups arent that bad. imo luigi and samus do beat her, but it's not so bad that she needs to be put under mario, especially when you consider how bad something like pika-mario is

Puff vs DK matchup is also pretty bad for puff too though.

And pikachu has good matchups against the whole cast.

 

[Sedda]

i like using DK in that matchup but i dont agree that it's very good for DK.

and yes pika has good matchups against everyone, but considering how mario does against the high tiers vs how jiggs does vs low tiers, i would put puff higher.

 

[Saltsizzle]

DK has so many tools against puff mostly: up b escapes from dair to uptilt, using set knockback of Up-b against puff recovery, F throw to giant punch combo, Dair to Upsmash at low percents, amongst others. Jiggs dies so easily against DK. This goes the same for the luigi matchup with jiggs being KO'd very early to up b's. Samus's spike and one move (up-b) shieldbreak are pretty bad for jiggs.

It's hard for me to determine where to place the mario or puff above one or the other just because they are so different. I still think:

it just depends on how much emphasis you place on consistency across the board or better vs characters that people play more.

 

[BananaBolts]

DK has so many tools against puff mostly: up b escapes from dair to uptilt, using set knockback of Up-b against puff recovery, F throw to giant punch combo, Dair to Upsmash at low percents, amongst others. Jiggs dies so easily against DK.

You could say the same things for Jigglypuff.
Jigglypuff has so many tools against DK: properly following DI, DK cannot escape dair to uptilt. Jiggs can recover high against DK and save her jumps to avoid DK's up-b. Jiggs can air-camp to avoid getting grabbed. DK can hardly connect dair to up-smash when Jiggs is always above him. Adding onto that, Jiggs' nair absolutely stuffs DK's recovery. Jiggs has a lot of zero-to-deaths on DK too. With his weight, almost any combo you can think of can connect.

Maybe I'm wrong, I dunno. The only good DK that I've played with Jiggs was Zeds. I think my Jiggs went positive his DK too. His Samus, on the other hand, was a lot tougher for me to play against. Combos were a bit harder to pull off, beating Samus's recovery was hard (you can use nair offstage but you risk getting dair-ed), Samus' dair tech chases were pretty solid, bombs disrupted some of the neutral play with dairs/nairs/fairs and made it hard to follow up after connecting.

Theory Time: If Samus gets hit by Jiggs' dair immediately after using a bomb, she can just DI towards the bomb to protect herself from a followup. It probably doesn't work as much as it does in theory but it's out there if anyone cares to try it.

As for Samus' shieldbreak on Jiggs, I don't think it's common at all if the person wielding Jiggs is a good player. Going into shield is bad enough and it's only magnified by playing Jiggs. The only time I imagine the shieldbreak would work is if Jiggs was somehow caught in shield while platform dropping and Samus landed the right shield pressure.

Sure, Luigi's combos are good against Jiggs but I think Jiggs' superior neutral game really helps out. Also, you can't ignore that Luigi also dies at low percents by Jiggs' rest. They both can kill at low percent, they both can escape combos pretty well, and they both have good horizontal recovery. Luigi has a better vertical recovery. Jiggs has a better neutral.

 

[Sedda]

jiggs dies early against every character which is what most of your 'pros' for DK point to anyway, Salt.

using DK up b against a jiggs that has more than one jump left is also really risky and more punishing for DK than anything DK could do to jiggs offstage. reducing those matchups to a couple of sentences isn't really the way to go either. people forget how good jiggs is at horizontal comboing, which is great against samus and luigi (even though i think jiggs stills loses).

against dk? jiggs only needs to land one hit. DK is probably the easiest character for jiggs (and most characters) to land her punishes on because of how huge he is.

edit: messed up some stuff

 

[Saltsizzle]

I was saying jiggs dies earlier against those characters because of the strong moves.

I don't know how you can say it's risky with invincible hands and set knockback in most cases.

That being said jiggs is a glass cannon making her potential huge which you can justify putting her ahead of Mario. Doe puting her ahead of Mario exclude her in low tier tournies? Include her and Mario? Include only Mario? Neither?

 

[Sedda]

I don't think that matters either way.

 

[Shears]

I feel like any character that is a "glass cannon" has to be credited as one of the best characters in the game considering the glass part can be avoided with intelligent play and great skill (Isai winning apex with jiggs/LD at apex). Any shortcoming because of edgeguards or early deaths become irrelevant with the don't get hit strategy executed correctly.

 

[Saltsizzle]

I don't think that matters either way.

Wasn't part of my argument, I was just curious. It's just hard to imagine a low tier tourney without jiggs or with mario involved if the tier list changes.

I feel like any character that is a "glass cannon" has to be credited as one of the best characters in the game considering the glass part can be avoided with intelligent play and great skill (Isai winning apex with jiggs/LD at apex). Any shortcoming because of edgeguards or early deaths become irrelevant with the don't get hit strategy executed correctly.

Not getting hit benefits every character, but I get what your saying.

 

[The Star King]

Regarding low tier tournaments, having Puff and Mario would be just like the low tier tournaments of old, except with Mario instead of Yoshi.

I think that's perfectly fine, as neither of them really crush the lower tiers anyway. Honestly I think such a metagame is a lot more skillful and interesting than standard 64. I suppose you could call them mid tier tournaments, whatever.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I feel like any character that is a "glass cannon" has to be credited as one of the best characters in the game considering the glass part can be avoided with intelligent play and great skill (Isai winning apex with jiggs/LD at apex). Any shortcoming because of edgeguards or early deaths become irrelevant with the don't get hit strategy executed correctly.

I'd like to make a point that one of the main things about isai's bracket was that he didn't face a single character that jiggs is really bad vs. Like, he had mostly Falcon and Kirby in top 8, which the former is his favorite Jiggs matchup, at least according to the commentator and the later is hardly a bad matchup. He would have had much bigger problems if he faced, let's say LD or if he faced Ruoka who I heard has a really, really good Luigi.

in terms of potential edgeguards, link/ness says hi, you also said in the other thread, which I partially agree with that Fox's recovery is quite deceptive. Jiggs might be a glass cannon but hey, at least (s)he is difficult to combo and edgeguard.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Damn.

Hey KoRo, when is this ending? Boomfan just sayss "lol" every time ppl ask him to vote.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Damn.

Hey KoRo, when is this ending? Boomfan just sayss "lol" every time ppl ask him to vote.

When boom responds

Around 100 people probably. I'd also like the opinions of Jaime-HR, Mariguas, and the Peruvians

 

[pidgezero_one]

whenever ppl ask boom he just says "lol" in irc

are we gonna get 100 votes? seems to be slowing down