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Tier List Discussion as Apex's interesting top 8 is over

Annex

Smash Ace
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And I love how quickly an utilt leads to 5 more followed by a reverse bair to dair or nair->dair for a free stock on almost the entire cast
(marshmallow main shaming is the only way I can get hard anymore)
 

Tom Bombadil

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This tournament has shown Yoshi > Falcon.

Matchup at least, not necessarily in the tier list






(just ignore boom vs tacos in the grand finals. It's not like Falcon Kirby is in Falcon's favor either)
 
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Shears

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The only reason LD didn't get top 3 was because of issues with the adapter. We discussed this the other day and there are some differences with the analog stick that once corrected will make LD, and fox, God tier. Apex 2016, LD gets top 3. I set the over/under at 3.5 @MrMarbles want to go double or nothing?
 
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Sedda

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yeah i think LD will get top 5 at least next year. he has a lot more console practice now + adapter

but i dont think yoshi > falcon.

i just cant give yoshi the edge when falcon can just grab --- > uair him easily like any other character in the cast
 

Annex

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Yoshi and pika are the only characters that can escape uair chains with only a 1 frame break in te combo, yeah? Pika w/ upb and yoshi with armor
Still think yoshi loses though
 

BananaBolts

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What about Fox's down-b? and Luigi and Mario's down-b? and Puff? and Samus?

They all have frame 1 moves.
 
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Sedda

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are we still talking about falcon uair?

it's not just about escaping it. the thing with that move is that it has ****ing orgasmic range. it doesnt matter if fox can shine because its not like falcon needs to be overlapping with fox to get those uair combos. same with the other characters.
yoshi has his double jump, but even after that, falcon has the advantage of being underneath yoshi. none of that matters too much because the move is not hard to time for getting u air chains. the hitstun makes the timing very forgiving

there are several characters that cant afford to be above falcon at most percentages because of uair. sometimes you can trade with uair at best, but youre just left with being above falcon once again.
 
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lord narwhal

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Yoshi has guaranteed 0-to-deaths out of an up tilt. Are combos really the metric that we use to determine tier? The meta is showing Yoshi has better matchups than people thought he did -- three Yoshis in top 8? ? Come on. And I think there's very little doubt anymore that Yoshi wins in the Falcon matchup in advanced level gameplay after Boom's Falcon lost to Wizz's Yoshi.

If you play this game and honestly think Fox could even be remotely worse than A tier OR tier 4, you have never seen the character played. He's got nothing but options in every situation, boasting the best moveset in the roster (think of any attack he has that isn't good besides maybe like down angled ftilt), the second fastest speed, the best projectile in the game giving him some of the best spacing in the game, and the only attack with fixed knockback (I think) in the game which he can cancel in one frame on the ground. He's retardedly good.

Oh, what does Falcon have? An up-air? Clearly that makes him a better character. And guess what? Up-air chains are not guaranteed on any floaties beyond like 50%, and don't kill the heavier characters below around 120% (assuming you end with the Dive). If anything, his upsmash is what makes him good -- it's got great range and he can follow up with almost anything. Still, though, doesn't even scratch the surface of Fox's potential, who has at least 3 different attacks with at least as much setup potential (uair, utilt, and dtilt come to mind).

Shut up.
 
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SheerMadness

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Falcon loses to Yoshi because Boom lost a game to Wizzy and Tacos (he also came back and PWNED tacos in GF with Falcon)?

Sorry but you're really reaching there Narwhal.

I've always thought it was a slight advantage to Falcon, pretty close to even. Nothing has changed my opinion on that.
 
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Sedda

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narwhal pls

dont make it sound like all falcon has is his uair and usmash (which make him really good already).

the neutral with falcon against yoshi is harder for yoshi and the punishes are way easier as falcon. not much yoshi can do against falcon from above in the neutral imo. not too bad but in falcon's favor for sure.

his dashgrab game is amazing (+his speed), his upsmash is amazing, his uair is amazing and combos into itself on every character at several percents, but he's also very good at comboing floaties horizontally once youve set them up with an uair or two. not to mention that at lower to middle-ish percents (and higher on the heavier characters) he can combo EVERY character out of throws.

his recovery is garbage, but everything else about him is amazing.

falcon uair for president
 

lord narwhal

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Wizz played almost nothing but Falcons in bracket and beat them all (including me actually, not that I'd argue I'm a top falcon or anything). I'm not saying Wizz / Tacos aren't good at the game, but Boom is almost objectively better at it. He definitely has one of the best Falcons in the world, and may actually have the best. Obviously more data is ideal, but I think that's pretty significant. Either way, though, I'm not basing it singularly on those matchups. Falcon's horrible recovery is easier for Yoshi to punish than most other characters, and a careful Yoshi has a free recovery vs Falcon. They both have great combos on one another, but Yoshi punishes much harder and is more guaranteed a kill with his combos (usmash ruins Falcon). There's tons of theoretical matchup advantages for Yoshi, but I honestly don't feel like theoretical arguments hold their salt, so I'll just leave it at that.

Sedda, I'll respond to you when I don't have a test tomorrow.
 

SheerMadness

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Apex 2014:

Star King - Eliminated by Wizzrobe and Boom (Falcon)
Tacos - Eliminated by Isai and Boom (Falcon)
Wizzrobe - Eliminated by Boom (Falcon) and Mariguas (Falcon)
Sheer - Double eliminated by Ruoka (Falcon)
EDIT: Not sure who took out Fire.

In general a Yoshi main is going to have more match up experience than a Falcon will vs Yoshi. That does play a factor. There are a lot more Falcons to practice against than Yoshis.

Also a reason why you see Yoshi beating Pikachu all the time. Do you think Yoshi has a match up advantage there too? Of course not, Yoshi players just play the match up 1000 times more than Pikachu players do.
 
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Capos

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Wizz played almost nothing but Falcons in bracket and beat them all (including me actually, not that I'd argue I'm a top falcon or anything). I'm not saying Wizz / Tacos aren't good at the game, but Boom is almost objectively better at it. He definitely has one of the best Falcons in the world, and may actually have the best. Obviously more data is ideal, but I think that's pretty significant.
Wizzy is almost objectively better than all those Falcons he beat. He won one close game against boom. Tacos won one close game then got 4 stocked in the 2nd. I won't argue the matchup, other players know that much better than me, but the results of this tournament don't sway my opinion in any way.

Also, boom was definitely the best player at Apex, but I don't think he's so untouchable that he can't lose a game with a matchup advantage. Mariguas, who lost to both wizzy and tacos, had 3 very very close games (falcon dittos) against boom last year. Why couldn't the two players who knocked him out take a game off boom?
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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Wizzy is almost objectively better than all those Falcons he beat. He won one close game against boom. Tacos won one close game then got 4 stocked in the 2nd. I won't argue the matchup, other players know that much better than me, but the results of this tournament don't sway my opinion in any way.

Also, boom was definitely the best player at Apex, but I don't think he's so untouchable that he can't lose a game with a matchup advantage. Mariguas, who lost to both wizzy and tacos, had 3 very very close games (falcon dittos) against boom last year. Why couldn't the two players who knocked him out take a game off boom?
Before you read, TL;DR version: People should learn:

1. What moves to use to pressure Yoshi while recovering,
2. What moves are best to break Yoshi's armor if you have multiple options
3. To use basic combos to prevent Super Armor DJCs.

In terms of why Boomfan didn't lose:

Because Boomfan plays the Yoshi matchup better than any other Falcon, period.

Mariguas goes for hilarious dash grabs which are baited heavily by Tacos /other techs that don't work vs Parries. He also used Up B to finish several combos which gave back Yoshi's double jump and used weird as **** aerials to try to break up Tacos DJ Armor. Watch the set once it's uploaded, he goes for well..odd stuff, compare his set to Booms.

Also:
Don't use Falcon dittos to show how close two player skills are. I mean Mariguas is good, he's quite good, he's not on Boom's level though, there are barely anyone who are even close and being as close as Mariguas is is mad respectable.

In terms of Falcon v. Yoshi

I agree with Sheer, Falcon wins...barely. (I blame the dash grab more than anything and the up air combos, as long as Falcon goes for 2003 stuff)

In terms of Falcon vs. Yoshi when it comes to Double Jump Cancel/Counters:

For ANY Falcons complaining about Yoshi DJ Counters, use normal combos, not fancy **** that you don't need to go for. As long as Yoshi is in hitstun which by the way is pretty simple with Falcon thanks to up air, it is quite easy for Falcon to combo Yoshi (not as easy as DK/Fox/Falcon, but really, really easy.

In terms of every other Yoshi matchup in Top 8/16 featuring Kirby/Pikachu
I mean seriously, how many times does a Pikachu/Kirby in Apex 2015 have to go for a f***ing f-air and realize, HEY MY AERIAL ISN'T BREAKING HIS DOUBLE JUMP, WHY NOT?

Please use actual good aerials. I don't want to make my character look bad but his double jump isn't the best recovery in the game, but a whole lot of you guys are making it look that way.
 
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Combo Blaze

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I think mariguas was getting some close games with boom in pika dittos

I feel the gap between boom and the rest is finally closing in. At least I hope so.
 

Capos

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Mariguas goes for hilarious dash grabs which are baited heavily by Tacos /other techs that don't work vs Parries. He also used Up B to finish several combos which gave back Yoshi's double jump and used weird as **** aerials to try to break up Tacos DJ Armor. Watch the set once it's uploaded, he goes for well..odd stuff, compare his set to Booms.

Also:
Don't use Falcon dittos to show how close two player skills are. I mean Mariguas is good, he's quite good, he's not on Boom's level though, there are barely anyone who are even close and being as close as Mariguas is is mad respectable.
To be clear, I didn't mean Mariguas was on Boom's level, just that he's close enough. You're not taking 4 of his stocks 3 times if you're 5 levels below him, even in falcon dittos. And if Tacos can bait bad moves from a player as good as Mariguas, then he can take one game off boom without it meaning he must have had the matchup advantage. It's also not the only example, Kero came really close to taking a pika/falcon match against boom at Zenith, and he took 5th, getting 2-0'd by Mariguas.
 

Olikus

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Im utterly amazed of seeing people putting 3 caracthers below link in an pretty much DL only ruleset. Wake up kids.
 
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Bassic

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I don't understand why there is so much debate about tier lists and what characters are better than others.

I thought it was pretty obvious that the idea of "tiers" was destroyed when Isai got to finals with Link in 2012 and won with puff in 2014. I mean he beat all the top players with JIGGYPUFF. Which is apparently a "low" tier character.
 

BananaBolts

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I don't understand why there is so much debate about tier lists and what characters are better than others.

I thought it was pretty obvious that the idea of "tiers" was destroyed when Isai got to finals with Link in 2012 and won with puff in 2014. I mean he beat all the top players with JIGGYPUFF. Which is apparently a "low" tier character.
The tiers seem to represent an inherent advantage that one character gives over another. It's mostly a way of saying, "Using X character should yield better tourney results than using Y character, assuming the two players are of equal skill level."
 

lord narwhal

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Apex 2014:

Star King - Eliminated by Wizzrobe and Boom (Falcon)
Tacos - Eliminated by Isai and Boom (Falcon)
Wizzrobe - Eliminated by Boom (Falcon) and Mariguas (Falcon)
Sheer - Double eliminated by Ruoka (Falcon)
EDIT: Not sure who took out Fire.

In general a Yoshi main is going to have more match up experience than a Falcon will vs Yoshi. That does play a factor. There are a lot more Falcons to practice against than Yoshis.

Also a reason why you see Yoshi beating Pikachu all the time. Do you think Yoshi has a match up advantage there too? Of course not, Yoshi players just play the match up 1000 times more than Pikachu players do.
In all of those matchups, with the POSSIBLE exception of you vs Ruoka (Ruoka really is exceptional though) I would argue the better player won. So it really doesn't mean much. My point is that in this tournament, players who are outskilled by other players were able to win by playing Yoshi. There aren't many top Yoshis, but I can guarantee Boom has had plenty of experience with every character. Maybe one event isn't enough, but this is a pretty big deal.

Plus, this is why it's called the meta -- it's constantly evolving. The meta is showing Yoshi has better matchups than people thought.
 

Sedda

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Plus, this is why it's called the meta -- it's constantly evolving. The meta is showing Yoshi has better matchups than people thought.
that's why yoshi is being moved up the tier list. falcon is just not one of those matchups

I don't understand why there is so much debate about tier lists and what characters are better than others.

I thought it was pretty obvious that the idea of "tiers" was destroyed when Isai got to finals with Link in 2012 and won with puff in 2014. I mean he beat all the top players with JIGGYPUFF. Which is apparently a "low" tier character.
if isai were to beat you with ness, would that mean that ness is high tier?

i wish isai showed up to a tournament with top japanese/peruvian players + boom in attendance and got 9th place for using link. some characters are simply better than others from a practical point of view. you can theorize about which character has the most potential, but nobody has perfect techskill. the tier lists are a reflection of what characters can do at the highest level of play
 
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T Brett

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i wish isai showed up to a tournament with top japanese/peruvian players + boom in attendance and got 9th place for using link. some characters are simply better than others from a practical point of view. you can theorize about which character has the most potential, but nobody has perfect techskill. the tier lists are a reflection of what characters can do at the highest level of play
I'm going to win the lottery and make this happen. Minus the link character lock cause **** link
 

Radical Larry

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Absolutely not; there's not enough substantial evidence to conclude that these character's aren't balanced enough. Remember APEX 2012? Where Link got second place?

Here's my suggestions, truly:
Move Link up at least three spaces, behind Mario.
Put Jigglypuff in the 3rd to last position.
Put Samus in the last position.
Put Yoshi behind Fox.

Then we're all good. However, those are suggestions if the game wasn't balanced enough competitively to the point that all of these characters are viable against one another now. The game has been fleshed out so much that it's nearly impossible to conclude a tier list anymore. At one point, Captain Falcon could win a major tournament, and at another, Link could win a major tournament, and at another point, Donkey Kong could win a major tournament.

So no, we shouldn't make this official due to the game being fleshed out, and the mere fact that you need people to give you MU charts, as well as their own say in a tier list, you need numbers and stats, and there's much work involved in making a tier list, especially on a game over 15 years old.

So until people will give MU and their own say, this cannot be official.
 

Radical Larry

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S Tier: :pikachu64:
A Tier: :falcon64:/:kirby64:
B Tier: :fox64::yoshi64:
CTier: :mario64::link64::jigglypuff64:
D Tier: :dk64::samus64:
F Tier: :ness64::luigi64:

Okay, here's my tier list; not too far-fetched, not too unbalanced, just perfect. Now, here are my main arguments on characters and their placements. I will not include the Top 5 characters, however, and will be focusing on the ones with the more drastic changes...which is only actually Link, sadly. No other character has a drastic change other than him.

:link64: - He is still at least competitively viable, and with his ranged attacks being the most absurd in the game, as well as some substantial prowess in attacks, he is a decent and solid character. Sure, he lacks recovery and some speed, but that's made up for because he has certain attacks to help him with that problem. He's still at the bottom half, but he's doing great and isn't that far from others.
 
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Radical Larry

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you dont know what youre talking about
The game is too far balanced to conclude anymore tier lists (plus, people have grown really bored on making a tier list for this game). The first part of the wording is satire, while the second part is actually kind of true. Anyone can win a major tournament now in this game.
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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Jiggles has OK matchups vs a good part of the upper tier, I wouldn't put her in Low. Also, too many splits between S-B, Falcon doesn't deserve his own tier, at all. He still loses vs. Kirby and has some other issues that someone alone in a tier wouldn't have.
 

Radical Larry

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Well, the margin between Jiggs and Link's placements are not that far off in my opinion; both of them are almost tied with Mario, let alone each other. And I will take the suggestion to Captain Falcon, as well as the split in the B-Tier. Thank you for your take on my list.
 
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