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Tier List Discussion as Apex's interesting top 8 is over

KoRoBeNiKi

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out of the middle four on shears tier list.. fox, jiggly, mario, and samus. Which do you guys believe has the least bad matchup with pika?
Jiggs/Fox I find are evenly bad, maybe Fox is slightly better? afterwards by a good margin Mario......3000 light years later Samus outside of Jaime/Cobr being a badass.

In terms of character variety/tier list in this manner:

It's hard to say that a character like DK would do well in Apex when quite simply they didn't or they didn't use DK. If no one performed this well as Yoshi (shoutouts to well EVERYONE) we wouldn't be having this discussion to begin with.

The literal problem with DK/Luigi is that no one uses them as quite simply there are better choices. The best people main better characters and avoid these two/three. At least Ness has Firo and Samus has Cobr/Jaime/Smash Jesus.

Tier lists are not about true potential, it's about tournament performance/how the current matchup metagame is going. If it went by who would be the best, literally, it would be Yoshi/Fox/Ness/Pikachu in some order (probably this one) due to TAS level usage of techniqes, i.e. perfect play such as TAS DJCs/Shine combos/shield breaks/Parries/infinite up b stall with Pikachu. However people don't play perfectly.
 
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SheerMadness

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Puff might actually be more well rounded vs the top 3 than Yoshi. Plus she's solid vs Yoshi.

She just doesn't have the tourney results Yoshi has.
 

anonymouschris01

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I haven't played long enough or with enough character to intelligently comment on who should be where on the tier list, so I can only go off what I've seen on recorded matches. But with doubles play starting to become popular should their be a teams tier list? Not sure if melee or the other smash games have a separate tier list for doubles, but their is definitely a difference in performance. I mean just look at how good Mario becomes in doubles. Luigi and ness become viable options as well. Then look at how falcon and yoshi perform for doubles. And if people take the time to practice with a mid-low tier character for doubles, wouldn't that translate to them performing better in singles?
 

Shears

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disproving indeterminism
I haven't played long enough or with enough character to intelligently comment on who should be where on the tier list, so I can only go off what I've seen on recorded matches. But with doubles play starting to become popular should their be a teams tier list? Not sure if melee or the other smash games have a separate tier list for doubles, but their is definitely a difference in performance. I mean just look at how good Mario becomes in doubles. Luigi and ness become viable options as well. Then look at how falcon and yoshi perform for doubles. And if people take the time to practice with a mid-low tier character for doubles, wouldn't that translate to them performing better in singles?
There is definitely a boost to "low" tier characters in teams. Characters with spikes make very good teammates because it allows for quick kills that are easily set up. Characters with good recoveries that are only spoiled by edgeguards also make very good teammates because the presence of a teammate interferes with opponents edgeguards. Characters that are floaty/heavy make very good teammates because the risk of being comboed or dying earlier isn't much of a risk anymore and allows the character to be a life tank. Characters with a powerful move that will most likely lead to a kill at low percents make good teammates because these moves can be easily set up to make quick kills and either rally or build a lead. A lot of mid/low tier characters posses most of these traits.

:jigglypuff64:: powerful kill move, great recovery, floaty
:luigi64:: powerful kill move, great recovery, floaty, above average character weight
:ness64:: spike, great recovery as evidenced by firo especially when not edgeguarded
:dk64:: powerful kill move, spike, great horizontal recovery especially when not edgeguarded, heavy
:samus64:: powerful kill move, spike, great recovery when not edgeguarded, floaty, heavy

I teamed with smash jesus who is a samus main and we did pretty well (9th). He was able to get some very quick kills and survive a long time. If he was a pika main, or falcon main, I don't think we would have done as well but because he was a samus main he was so easily able to turn games around and steal stocks by getting quick kills. He was also able to live to near 200% and break combos with his upb which would allow me to come in a punish opponents when they got out of it. Our losses were to boom-jaime and mariguas-shalaka and we played admirably against both. I still think pika and kirby are great teams characters with kirby having nearly every favorable teams trait, but these lower tiers, when paired with a higher tier character become better partners than some of these higher tier characters. I'd much rather have samus as a partner than falcon or fox.
 

anonymouschris01

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Precisely. I'm a falcon main and although I did terribly in singles and doubles. I knew I didn't want to use him for doubles. With no projectile and little crowd control moves he didn't seem like a natural choice. I chose to practice with samus and luigi and managed to hold on to stocks, grab some spikes and back oars with samus and some up-bs with luigi. My partner played ness and did pretty well despite how everyone wants to scoff at the mere mention of his name.
 

Kahnu

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:pikachu64:=:kirby64:=:falcon64:=:yoshi64:=:fox64:=:jigglypuff64:=:mario64:=:samus64:=:dk64:=:ness64:=:link64:=:luigi64:
-From Shears

I agree 100% with this tier list,
Should we make this offiicial?
 
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Annex

Smash Ace
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I think he meant just rank each character on their own and generalize, like how the singles tier list is a generalization of all the matchups rather than a full matchup chart
 

BananaBolts

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It's still a huge undertaking. There's 78 possible team combinations and I doubt that anyone here has the resources to make even a decent generalization of a doubles tier list. Not enough info so most of it would be pure conjecture.
 

MrMarbles

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not enough 64 teams are actually played to justify making a teams tier list. it's fun to make a theorycraft list for teams but making an official one would be dumb
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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not enough 64 teams are actually played to justify making a teams tier list. it's fun to make a theorycraft list for teams but making an official one would be dumb
lolthis

When Boom/The Z can just about win a tournament with Double Samus, you can tell the metagame is hilariously underdeveloped.

The only obvious top are Dub Pika, Pika/Kirby, and Dub Kirby
 

Combo Blaze

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lots of online teams happens tho

samus is actually good in teams
link still gets pwned cus of bad recover. only some things would change in the top tier bit

picky/kirby still s tier
falcon still a tier
fox is kill
mid/low tiers might be more viable, with chars like samus and luigi getting a big boost (maybe?)
 

Sedda

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Luigi sucks
im gonna out narwhal right now

he thinks fox up air is better than falcon up air *runs away*
 

Sedda

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Jan 26, 2013
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Luigi sucks
i mean caneut claims to be a fox main but has been using kirby all year.

whats that about


anyway, falcon uair for best move in the game. ty
 

Han Solo

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I thought for sure after LD got top 5 everyone in here would be saying Fox is the best in the game. I cried a single tear of joy seeing everyone say Yoshi > Fox.
 

Sedda

Smash Champion
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Luigi sucks
LD is just a monster. He sees the game in Matrix code.

that's the only reasonable explanation
 

MrMarbles

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worst gif ive ever seen. kahnu for worst poster of all time. confirmed stranded
 
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