Tier List Challenge: IMO Marth is not as good as people think

[Bones0]

There is some useful info on the boards, but for the most part you get better by playing not by wasting time with theorycraft and frame analysis.

Yet here you are.

 

[Upke]

There is some useful info on the boards, but for the most part you get better by playing not by wasting time with theorycraft and frame analysis.

I guess M2K is a horrible player then with all the theorycrafting and analysis he does.

 

[BTmoney]

I guess M2K is a horrible player then with all the theorycrafting and analysis he does.

kirbykaze for trash tier

 

[danieljosebatista]

Are you guys ****ing serious? Lmao this is unbelievable. Anyway, mods please close the thread whenever. It has clearly outlived its use.

 

[Jayk]

There was a use for this thread?

And here I was thinking there was a stickied thread specifically for discussing things exactly like this.

 

[Pengie]

Dude don't be a tool. I say I'm not that skilled yet because I understand my level relative to top level play. That being said, I also know the average skill level and am wayyy above that, probably above you as well. Yeah man I've read the Marth boards. I get a good laugh every time I see that there are actually marth players who think pivot fsmash is a good option and some sort of future technology for marth. The marth boards are full with that kind of garbage. There is some useful info on the boards, but for the most part you get better by playing not by wasting time with theorycraft and frame analysis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

seems kinda relevant

 

[Max?]

Marth is a solid character with good tools. He's also fragile, has a linear recovery, is hard to play and was one of the most dominant character in the game for a long time. At this point and time in the meta, he's not that great, simple as that

 

[Deleted member]

Dude that's not what I said lmao. I said marth has trouble killing. He does, I don't see why you feel the need to try to make this personal




Dude don't be a tool. I say I'm not that skilled yet because I understand my level relative to top level play. That being said, I also know the average skill level and am wayyy above that, probably above you as well. Yeah man I've read the Marth boards. I get a good laugh every time I see that there are actually marth players who think pivot fsmash is a good option and some sort of future technology for marth. The marth boards are full with that kind of garbage. There is some useful info on the boards, but for the most part you get better by playing not by wasting time with theorycraft and frame analysis.

lmao this whole post is sig worthy.

 

[JKJ]

*clap*
*clap*

You have outdone yourself, my friend. You have reached a new level of internet ignorance.
Gold star.

 

[Upke]

There was a use for this thread?

Those exact words ran through my head after I read his post, lol.

This just in, Roy is really good. I've read everything on the Royboards and they are wrong. Oh, and I'm better than all of you.

 

[Deathconsciousness]

pretty much sums up the entire competitive Smash community tbh

 

[FirestormNeos]

Not to disrespect you but... where are the 100 players who are way better than me? To be honest, there's one player who's been posting in this thread whose posts I've been actually considering and taking into account, and that's Kirbykaze. This is because he's a notable player. I've played him in friendlies before and he destroyed me. That being said, I don't think it's always wise to change your opinion just because people tell you so.

As for you, and anyone else who wants to hide behind their computer and say I'm "bad," I probably am a lot better than you think. While I'm not an idiot and stupid enough to think I'm a good player (Because very few can truly call themselves good players) I also live in one of the best regions in the U.S. and my skill level is definitely above the average smasher. Most of the people posting on this thread would probably get bodied by me, no lie.

Screw unlocking Final Destination, I wanna work on a new goal: getting better at Melee just to kick this guy's ***.

Spoiler

kidding. I like Brawl a bit more because there's a character I'm actually comfortable will playing as.

If Marth is bad then there are only two good characters in this game.

Which would result in one of two scenarios:

1. Brawl being forgiven for having IC and MK and OP.
2. Melee players turn into hypocrites when trying to defend their fighter of choice.

If I were an Investigator for the FBI, I'd call that a motive.

 

[Zhea]

So let me get this straight. You make this thread saying "Hey guys, Marth isn't that good". Everyone shouts back "No, he is". Then you go "Well I don't care what you think, I am right". Why did you ever make this thread?

 

[Massive]

Serious meta talk here for a second:

You can't go on the internet and tell people you're better than them with little-to-no evidence. It is disrespectful and you can be very, very wrong. Your implication that only "known" players have valid opinions means that by your own definition your opinion isn't valid.

I had never heard of you (Rama, correct?) before today when I looked you up. If I saw your name next to mine in a tourney bracket, I would probably think "nice, free win" because I had never heard of you before. You would probably think the same about me. That's just fine. We're both basically unknown people playing this game in completely different regions. We could both be right or wrong, there are good, unknown players in every region.

What I'm getting at here is that your opinion can still be valid if you're not KirbyKaze or M2K or Mango or whomever. But keep in mind that your reputation doesn't precede you. You need to have a well thought out position and good evidence to back up your points if you want to get any semblance of credibility in other people's eyes.
Even then it's an uphill battle.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Oh, forum politics and debate.

I don't want anyone to feel I am trying to suffocate their opinions. And I try to be respectful or at least formal when addressing the content of a post that has caught my attention and warranted a reply. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel I generally do a good job of upholding this standard, at least to the point where nobody is outright scared of posting a view that contradicts mine. I actually like conflicting viewpoints on deep, complex topics (so, not Sheik vs Ganon) because it gives me a chance of exercise my writing skills and also think about Melee (win-win!). That said, if people feel I suffocate the board then that's a shame because it's not my intention to do so (I'm not burdened with the weight of perfection).

That said, operating under the assumption I do manage to post respectfully, I have a really strong reputation with the theoretical aspect of Melee and at one point I was kind of good at it. I could very easily remain influential even if I allowed my standards of respect to wilt significantly. So I expect the same courtesy when dealing with people - particularly new people. I dislike disrespect in a dialogue. I've actually learned some interesting things from less "Academic" players and they've served as the cornerstone for some of the stuff I'm working on now, but that's for later.

Similarly, my policy on information or opinions and the need for respect in an exchange is a large component of why I make enormous wall of text posts or offer clarification on anything that is not adequately defended. However, if you ask me why Sheik bangs Ganondorf like a Salvation Army drum, then I may subject you to my rather cruel humor. Because there are in fact stupid questions (though there are few).

 

[Blistering Speed]

Lol. The vacuous hatred a poster receives for a contrasting and slightly ignorant point of view on here is ridiculous. Most of you defend your viewpoints as myopically and baselessly as he defends his.

I'd rather see a spurious independent thought over another groupthink circle jerk any day.

 

[Upke]

However, if you ask me why Sheik bangs Ganondorf like a Salvation Army drum, then I may subject you to my rather cruel humor. Because there are in fact stupid questions (though there are few).

I'd honestly love to hear all your accrued jokes of Ganondorf's spankedness in that match-up.

 

[FirestormNeos]

I've heard more thought-provoking arguments in Call of Duty Chat Room.

Spoiler

yes, this thread is that baseless and stupid

 

[Deathconsciousness]

damn everyone here is so mad and **** roll one and relax srsly

 

[GanonPWN!]

Listing all the strengths and weaknesses of a character doesn't really add much to the discussion because the only important stat is how you feel marth does vs other characters. What do you feel his matchups are like vs fox/falco/peach/jigs/falcon/climbers/shiek. For me I think he has worse matchups vs all those characters than peach does except vs falcon. So i think thats evidence that it wouldn't be unthinkable that Marth be moved down 1 slot below peach.

 

[BTmoney]

damn everyone here is so mad and **** roll one and relax srsly

LOL

No need to try so hard. we're friendly peeps, mostly, and you're already a square for making an account here =]
You get lamer when you try not to be

 

[Xyzz]

Listing all the strengths and weaknesses of a character doesn't really add much to the discussion because the only important stat is how you feel marth does vs other characters. What do you feel his matchups are like vs fox/falco/peach/jigs/falcon/climbers/shiek. For me I think he has worse matchups vs all those characters than peach does except vs falcon. So i think thats evidence that it wouldn't be unthinkable that Marth be moved down 1 slot below peach.

Yeah, there's this Peach player who thought the Peach - Jiggs Matchup was so free he wouldn't even have to bother to play his main.

 

[GanonPWN!]

Yeah, there's this Peach player who thought the Peach - Jiggs Matchup was so free he wouldn't even have to bother to play his main.

Where did I say that the Peach - Jiggs matchup was free? Both Armada and M2K swap off of peach/marth to play hungrybox, they both obviously feel that y.link/fox have better matchups vs jiggs. So how do you feel the marth vs jiggs and the peach vs jiggs matchups are? Or do you want to make snide sarcastic comments for no reason?

 

[Xyzz]

One of them switches because he thinks Fox is a better matchup, the other because he thinks the matchup is rather impossible.
Also: I want to make snide sarcastic comments, because you're offering a list that's vastly different from anything reasonable people have suggested so far, and you don't present any justification for differences towards the commonly accepted stuff.

 

[Upke]

Xyzz brings up some good points.

What if we all draw pictures of cats?

 

[Comatose]

Xyzz brings up some good points.

What if we all draw pictures of cats?

Seems like that would accomplish more than this thread.

 

[knightpraetor]

uggh peach jiggs....why would any sane person not go fox..that's the real question...though in my case i'd probably just play marth...also, I second that peach has better matchups than marth against everyone but fox and jiggs, so I do think he should move down a spot...but people could argue that foxes are more common than falcos so marth should be higher than peach..that's not that unreasonable either.

Besides, the group consensus says that marth is in spot 4, and somehow better than jiggs too, so there he will stay!!!!

but realistically most of 3-5 have bad matchups and aren't that different in terms of chances of placing well.

 

[Jayk]

Also, m2ks Fox gets absolutely destroyed by Hungrybox, his Shiek would definitely do better...

 

[Xyzz]

That problem lies with M2k not with fox.

His Sheik / Marth are much better than fox, get far more playtime, and Hbox has tons of fox experience, I don't know why he would bother to bring out the fox against him, but well... his choice.

also: I would totally approve of more cats!

and @KP:
Are you suggesting Peach does better against CF than Marth does?
We obviously don't have to talk about ICs, and I might agree that Peach has an ever so slight edge on Falco, while that guy might be around that against Marth, but they are both so close that I don't really care.
She might also do marginally better against Sheik (who wins against both, but not too badly), and the heads up is pretty even imho.
But ya, Falcon?

 

[Ijuka]

Hmm.

Against spacies Marth kills really well, against most other characters he can aerial -> a combination of wavedash and pivot fsmash spacing for a tipper until pretty high percentages. If they do live after this you clearly made a mistake. However, even in that case you will a lot of the time end up just hitting them a few times with a soft fair or whatever until you can kill them with uthrow. Forward B combos into tipper or utilt at high %s and is quite safe.


Chaingrab -> kill in FD is 100% guaranteed vs space animals no matter the DI and all DI is reactable. If you don't kill spacies off any grab on FD you screwed up. Just do proper pivots and regrabs. Outside FD I don't think it's a problem either as everything leads into tipper. DL64 is more difficult but meh. CF you cannot chaingrab quite as well but its super easy to tech chase him for forever anyway. Just need to not get hit as he kills Marth off like every hit.

Marth vs Sheik isn't exactly impossible either. Her jumps are slow and off almost anything anti-air Marth can transition into a full combo and end with tipper fsmash nearly always. You will get opportunities to anti-air because all Sheik's ground moves are heavily punishable by Marth. Sheik also is a free edgeguard, her recovery is awful. Just learn to tipper her after her up B.

Peach you can fthrow -> tipper at most %s with a proper combination of wavedash and pivot.


Most Marths don't utilize dsmash as a kill move at all. It's got a pretty small sweetspot but after you learn it you can reliably land it. You can pivot into it as well if the enemy is low to the ground and also combo into it rather well. It's insanely powerful against floaties, I have no clue why people haven't just learned how to tipper it consistently, it's extremely fast as well.

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions about Marth. This has to do with the fact that many years ago (or at a low level of play) this was true. In today's metagame, Marth does not have an advantage against spacies unless it's FD. Even then, it's not how people think it is. It's not like chaingrabbing will always lead to a kill.

lol. FD? I think you think that winning means playing better in the neutral game. The reason why Marth is considered advantageous over Falco is because

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_qs2fSOeG8


All I know is that Taj's Marth can't be beat with Falco.