Shadow Huan
Smash Champion
agreed
10 char
EDIT: 2000th post, took nearly 5 years. lol
10 char
EDIT: 2000th post, took nearly 5 years. lol
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Tier List Challenge: IMO Marth is not as good as people think
- Thread starter danieljosebatista
- Start date
If you drop a juggle at low/mid % for a kill move (fsmash/dsmash/up+b/whatever) and then fail to kill them then that's pretty much not playing "efficiently", Marth is crazy good when he's below someone. When you have moves that beat every aerial in the game, rack up damage by repeating the same strategy, and you're able to convert that into an off-stage situation then they're as good as dead, anyway.
FWIW I'm not saying Marth kills at early/low percents consistently, but he does kill consistently when you consider the situations that he puts his opponents into.
Double Helix
Smash Journeyman
I was honestly surprised to see Marth go as "low" as he is on the tier list (though I can easily agree). His off stage game isn't that good when you aren't edge guarding but almost everybody knows that. Making an argument for Peach and Falcon just do not make sense to me. I mean, Falcon can sometimes be grouped with the spacies when it comes to how easily people can combo him (though not always). Peach is in a similar boat to Marth in all honestly. They have "limited" options, but what they do have are ****ing great (and Peach can recover). This is literally about as fruitful as saying that Pichu and Kirby should switch places on the tier list, and it's about as important. Marth will always be S or A tier, and he will always be relevant. Basing Marth's placement on his matchups with Falcon and Peach is not a good way of approaching it. I say we should arbitrarily base everybody's placement in the tier list on their matchup with Samus. Because why evaluate everybody's matchup with everybody when we can say Samus is just the best character because in dittos, Samus always wins!
In reality, a tier list is just a representation of a matchup chart, and Marth has more good matchups (or less bad ones) than Peach and Falcon. Performance against high-tiers is not the only thing that matters (even though it matters a lot).
In reality, a tier list is just a representation of a matchup chart, and Marth has more good matchups (or less bad ones) than Peach and Falcon. Performance against high-tiers is not the only thing that matters (even though it matters a lot).
Dr. Poopoo
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2012
- Messages
- 44
They were great for their time...
Dr. Poopoo
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2012
- Messages
- 44
Those are 2 of my favorite players ever. But they're not as good as the other ones I mentioned
They were definitely Falcons in the time period who were better than Ek and Ice
Actually, I can't say anything about Ek because we never saw him play against America's in his prime (IIRC), but we also can't say the opposite and assume Ek was better than Isai.
And Hax and s2j were def. better than Ice while he was maining Marth, though he's gotten a lot better since his switch to Sheik
Dr. Poopoo
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2012
- Messages
- 44
i agree with that. Ice's Sheik is monstrous
FirestormNeos
Smash Lord
BEHOLD YOUR SUPERIOR
Ether
Smash Ace
Fsmash is not Marth's only reliable kill move.
Marth has trouble killing once he lets the opponent escape his juggles/air combos, but a good Marth doesn't often let that happen. Against very good Marths, a misplaced jump will lead into a uair chain into a Ken combo. A grab will convert into a death by upair juggle into tipper. Being offstage will convert into a death by dtilt, bair, dair, fsmash, neutral b, fair, nair, ftilt, etc.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
All of Marth's moves are "kill moves" because at the end of his combo if he's killing you it's probable he's either:
(1) Putting you in a position where you are now offstage because somewhere in fighting to get to solid ground you started getting pushed sideways and now you need to do stuff to get back onto the level or you die, and since your recovery isn't Peach's or Puff's or something then it's probable / possible that he will do something to nudge you off the level just enough so you can't recover by drifting forward (although he can cover this too and accommodate this possibility like 80%+ of the time pretty easily because d-tilt, fair, bair are amazing). In this case, he can use bair, d-tilt, fair, B, up+b, nair, f-smash, f-tilt, and basically almost anything in his moveset because most of his attacks push sideways and can serve some edgeguarding or control purpose because sword priority through everything.
(2) Killing you off the top with uair or u-tilt because of a handful of reasons. You could be a floaty or something near the top of the level, or near the bottom of the level but you got soft uair'd into strong uair at like 130%+. Or you could be almost any character at say 180%+ and you recovered in such a manner that he can simply vertical KO with tipped u-tilt. There's a whole bunch of ways to die off the top. This is actually a part of (1) but it's a bit different in a few small but kind of distinct ways.
(1) Putting you in a position where you are now offstage because somewhere in fighting to get to solid ground you started getting pushed sideways and now you need to do stuff to get back onto the level or you die, and since your recovery isn't Peach's or Puff's or something then it's probable / possible that he will do something to nudge you off the level just enough so you can't recover by drifting forward (although he can cover this too and accommodate this possibility like 80%+ of the time pretty easily because d-tilt, fair, bair are amazing). In this case, he can use bair, d-tilt, fair, B, up+b, nair, f-smash, f-tilt, and basically almost anything in his moveset because most of his attacks push sideways and can serve some edgeguarding or control purpose because sword priority through everything.
(2) Killing you off the top with uair or u-tilt because of a handful of reasons. You could be a floaty or something near the top of the level, or near the bottom of the level but you got soft uair'd into strong uair at like 130%+. Or you could be almost any character at say 180%+ and you recovered in such a manner that he can simply vertical KO with tipped u-tilt. There's a whole bunch of ways to die off the top. This is actually a part of (1) but it's a bit different in a few small but kind of distinct ways.
Acryte
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2005
- Messages
- 986
Lol yea, but don't try waiting out of shield
D
Deleted member
Guest
some characters edge guard. marth stage guards. all of it.
danieljosebatista
Smash Journeyman
Just thought I'd reiterate. Marth is not that good.
CyberZixx
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2012
- Messages
- 1,189
Are you trolling now? What is your basis to make that claim as if you have the ultimate truth of Marth when people have given good reason in this thread why he is good. Is it because of the way M2k played vs Armada? That is not Marth's fault. M2k played the match up poorly and seemed shaken after his SD.
Beat!
Smash Master
Damn. I've been skeptical throughout this entire discussion, but this post, with all its intricate and fresh arguments, convinced me. Thanks for telling us.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Marth has a cute hairband, a sword and even a cape... what could possibly go wrong?
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
yessss lmfao
more people need to post like this when baseless posts are made
Upke
Smash Journeyman
Strong Bad, you are wrong.
D
Deleted member
Guest
marth is like...untouchable when he's played correctly, and every move can kill at basically any % because the damage doesn't matter. marth being "not that good" says more about you than it does about the actual character.
danieljosebatista
Smash Journeyman
Touche. I'm not really that skilled a player yet, but I still believe that Peach is a much better character than Marth overall.
D
Deleted member
Guest
rather than subject yourself to the ridicule of the community at large, you'd be better off going over to the marth board and reading the discussion thread. i'd seriously suggest reading every single post from september 2012 and after.
danieljosebatista
Smash Journeyman
To be honest man I don't give a crap about what most of them think. What most players think is wrong. I'm sure you know this lol
Upke
Smash Journeyman
Damn, what a bad ass. I have been swayed into thinking that Marth is somehow miraculously worse than Falcon.
FirestormNeos
Smash Lord
My Hipster Senses are tingling.
D
Deleted member
Guest
you're right. i have nothing more to say.
ShrieK1295
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2009
- Messages
- 371
Glad you can admit that you are bad but not that a hundred players who are way better than you might be right.
danieljosebatista
Smash Journeyman
Not to disrespect you but... where are the 100 players who are way better than me? To be honest, there's one player who's been posting in this thread whose posts I've been actually considering and taking into account, and that's Kirbykaze. This is because he's a notable player. I've played him in friendlies before and he destroyed me. That being said, I don't think it's always wise to change your opinion just because people tell you so.
As for you, and anyone else who wants to hide behind their computer and say I'm "bad," I probably am a lot better than you think. While I'm not an idiot and stupid enough to think I'm a good player (Because very few can truly call themselves good players) I also live in one of the best regions in the U.S. and my skill level is definitely above the average smasher. Most of the people posting on this thread would probably get bodied by me, no lie.
How about the fact that there were no Marths in top 16 at Evo, but there were 2 Falcons and 1 Peach? The best Marth out there (PPU) lost to Leffen. Oh and one edit I want to make. Before anyone says "what about Wobbles doing well with IC's, or Shroomed with Doc!?" Lower tiered characters outplacing Marth is NOT an argument for how good he is, just the opposite actually.
Based on your opinions, you can't kill with Marth, which makes you more of a n00b than I could ever hope to be.
Upke
Smash Journeyman
Because one tourney means anything, right? If you can say Marth is bad just from that, then I'm equally allowed to say ICs are number two. Oh and Taj made top 16 by the way, not to mention M2K used Marth like he always does.
inb4 Mewtwo carried Taj to top 16.
Beat!
Smash Master
He's not telling you to "give a crap" about other Marth players' opinions (even though it would probably be a good idea). He's telling you to read the discussion thread because there's heaps of valuable information in it. Y'know, things that might help you improve. Someone who's, and I quote, "not really that skilled a player yet" should be welcoming that with open arms.
Kaeon
Smash Cadet
You don't just hop into those threads expecting to find an answer. It's not a Q&A, it's a discussion. People have points, and other will refute them. You're supposed to read to gain an understanding and form an opinion. At the moment you seem to have neither.
D
Deleted member
Guest
you're wasting your time and you'd be better off if you just stopped.
Beat!
Smash Master
It's funny, I was actually considering adding "I'm probably wasting my time here" to the end of my post, but decided not to.
Great minds think alike? ))
Great minds think alike? ))
Kadano
Magical Express
This is such a senseless thread. Who cares about tier lists anyway. Either you try to push the character you have chosen to his very limits and perfect your play, or you only care about winning and ego boosting and john for everything your character does worse than others.
What is it you want to achieve with this? Make Marth go down below Ice Climbers (arguable if only looking at tournament results) so even less players will pick him up and try to improve his metagame? I don’t see the point.
There are many things Marth can’t do as well as the other top 12 characters, especially getting kills against floaties (and in Puff’s case, this might even not be true any longer). But there are many things Marth can do considerably better than other characters. His evasive and spacing tools are without equal (think dash away bair, dash away wd pivot grab, etc etc) and PP showed that these can outweigh his shortcomings against Armada at Apex 2013.
What is it you want to achieve with this? Make Marth go down below Ice Climbers (arguable if only looking at tournament results) so even less players will pick him up and try to improve his metagame? I don’t see the point.
There are many things Marth can’t do as well as the other top 12 characters, especially getting kills against floaties (and in Puff’s case, this might even not be true any longer). But there are many things Marth can do considerably better than other characters. His evasive and spacing tools are without equal (think dash away bair, dash away wd pivot grab, etc etc) and PP showed that these can outweigh his shortcomings against Armada at Apex 2013.
Massive
Smash Champion
I'm pretty sure that in terms of hitbox disjoints, grab range, ground speed, recovery, survivability, stage control, and KO potential Marth is overall a very good character.
I'm also pretty sure that the OP thinks Marth is bad because he tried to play Marth and was bad at it.
I'm also pretty sure that the OP thinks Marth is bad because he tried to play Marth and was bad at it.
Warhawk
Smash Lord
If Marth is bad then there are only two good characters in this game.
danieljosebatista
Smash Journeyman
Dude that's not what I said lmao. I said marth has trouble killing. He does, I don't see why you feel the need to try to make this personal
Dude don't be a tool. I say I'm not that skilled yet because I understand my level relative to top level play. That being said, I also know the average skill level and am wayyy above that, probably above you as well. Yeah man I've read the Marth boards. I get a good laugh every time I see that there are actually marth players who think pivot fsmash is a good option and some sort of future technology for marth. The marth boards are full with that kind of garbage. There is some useful info on the boards, but for the most part you get better by playing not by wasting time with theorycraft and frame analysis.