Tier gaps compared to Melee

[Redknight7]

I'm not much a Brawl player, but I was wondering how big of gaps in the Tiers are there in this game compared to Melee. It seemed in Melee they were pretty big

 

[Djent]

Hmm...good question. Imma try to make a list of significant low-tier placements in each game in the past year or so. Everyone feel free to add any that I forgot.

Melee:
Axe - 17th place - Pound 4 - Pikachu
Cosmo - 9th place - POE 3 - Zelda
Axe - 5th place - Apex 2010 - Pikachu
Taj - 17th place - Apex 2010 - Mewtwo
Cosmo - 2nd place - SYCSYN 3 - Zelda

Brawl:
Biglou - 8th place - MLG Orlando - Luigi
Shaky - 10th place - MLG Columbus - Ness
San - 11th place - MLG Columbus - Ike
San - 9th place - Apex 2010 - Ike
Poltergust - 25th place - MLG DC - Yoshi
Espy - 5th place - MLG Dallas - Sonic
X - 6th place - MLG Dallas - Sonic

My first impression is this: it seems like low tiers actually place more in Brawl, although this data is skewed because of how many more tournaments Brawl has than Melee. I also get the impression that Melee has a more balanced top tier than Brawl does (due to the absence of a certain winged bat). So my guess is that:

In Brawl, the gap between Top and High tiers is larger than in Melee, but the gap between Top and Bottom tiers is roughly the same.

 

[SmashChu]

My first impression is this: it seems like low tiers actually place more in Brawl, although this data is skewed because of how many more tournaments Brawl has than Melee. I also get the impression that Melee has a more balanced top tier than Brawl does (due to the absence of a certain winged bat). So my guess is that:

In Brawl, the gap between Top and High tiers is larger than in Melee, but the gap between Top and Bottom tiers is roughly the same.

Meta-Knight is good, but is far over stated of how good he is. He has a 50:50 match up with all the top tiers except like 2. Also, he doesn't stop tournaments much more than any other character. He's good, no doubt, but looking though tournament results, he seems to be just a bit better.

 

[UberMario]

Meta-Knight is good, but is far over stated of how good he is.

^^THIS^^

I'd say the Melee tiers have just as large tier gaps as Brawl does. Fox, Falco, Jigglypuff, Marth, and Shiek are miles ahead of everyone else in Melee, while Meta-Knight, Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Wario, and Marth are similarly above the rest of the crowd in Brawl. On the opposite side of the spectrum, Melee's Kirby, Pichu, and Mewtwo aren't worth their weight in dirt, while in Brawl that applies to Link, Ganondorf, and Samus. Even though it's noticable, the gaps aren't auto-wins (by FAR not), but they are still there. All-in-all, it's about the same. IMO

 

[ludvigpasse]

^^THIS^^

I'd say the Melee tiers have just as large tier gaps as Brawl does. Fox, Falco, Jigglypuff, Marth, and Shiek are miles ahead of everyone else in Melee, while Meta-Knight, Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Wario, and Marth are similarly above the rest of the crowd in Brawl. On the opposite side of the spectrum, Melee's Kirby, Pichu, and Mewtwo aren't worth their weight in dirt, while in Brawl that applies to Link, Ganondorf, and Samus. Even though it's noticable, the gaps aren't auto-wins (by FAR not), but they are still there. All-in-all, it's about the same. IMO

You forgot olimar.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

A lot of the hightier in melee do well enough in tournaments to be considered major threats. Peach, Falcon, and ICs all have extensive track records of high placing in tournament.

see: the Falcons, Wobbles, Armada, Chu, etc.

even mid-tiers can compete with the top-tier, like Samus who has even matchups with the spacies (although gets wrecked by Sheik and Marth).

I think the main thing is that matchup ratios mean much less in melee than they do in Brawl. In melee, a 65-35 matchup is bad but still very winnable (see Falcon vs. Spacies). But the same matchup ratio in brawl would be pretty much impossible, if not extremely unlikely.

I might be wrong (in fact I can already rebut my own post)

 

[KillerJawz]

A 65-35 MU in Brawl, that's like Diddy v Samus. Which is totally winnable.

Imo I'd say the tier gaps are to an extent quite similar. We get low/mid tiers getting placements and beating out MKs (see: Shaky, Poltergust, TKD) but the same can be said for melee, just as Slickback was saying.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I look at the results more often.

The whole 5th and 6th being taken by Sonic's at MLG Dallas was pretty amazing.

 

[TurnOneWrath]

While I've played Melee for much longer than I did Brawl, I only see it as some of the lower tier characters from Melee got better (Yoshi, Luigi), and more characters are now present to fill in gaps above and below them.
When I posed this question to my friend just yesterday, this is what we basically came up with, and concluded that it was hard to compare the two outside of a strict, character-by-character and then finding a way to make up for there being additional characters as well as characters missing.

I also get the impression that Melee has a more balanced top tier than Brawl does (due to the absence of a certain winged bat).

That's a bat?
Someone told me that he was from the Kirby games, so I assumed it was a Kirby-species-type thing fashioned with a mask than can fly instead of float.

... hmmm

 

[Blissard]

He has a 50:50 match up with all the top tiers except like 2.

I beg to differ. I don't think any of his MU's are completely even; all of them are on MK's side. MK is overused because people exaggerate his strengths so much, that while it's partially true, the huge usage of MK spreads like a virus. Most of his high tier MUs are 55:45, which is really not that much of a difference, but an advantage for him nonetheless. MK tends to be easy to pick up, and easy to win with.

Edit: MK is a tit with wings. Not a bat.

 

[SmashChu]

I beg to differ. I don't think any of his MU's are completely even; all of them are on MK's side. MK is overused because people exaggerate his strengths so much, that while it's partially true, the huge usage of MK spreads like a virus. Most of his high tier MUs are 55:45, which is really not that much of a difference, but an advantage for him nonetheless. MK tends to be easy to pick up, and easy to win with.

The match ups are, like you said, 55:45, which is pretty much 50:50 (as the advantage is marginal at best).

Smash Brothers has always had those guys who love the top tier. So it's no surprise Brawl is any different.

 

[Djent]

I'd say the Melee tiers have just as large tier gaps as Brawl does. Fox, Falco, Jigglypuff, Marth, and Shiek are miles ahead of everyone else in Melee, while Meta-Knight, Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Wario, and Marth are similarly above the rest of the crowd in Brawl. On the opposite side of the spectrum, Melee's Kirby, Pichu, and Mewtwo aren't worth their weight in dirt, while in Brawl that applies to Link, Ganondorf, and Samus. Even though it's noticable, the gaps aren't auto-wins (by FAR not), but they are still there. All-in-all, it's about the same. IMO

I disagree. As good as they are in theory, you never see any of those Melee top tiers taking up 3 or 4 spaces in the top 8 at a national. Whereas in Brawl, such a thing has happened on several occasions with Meta Knight.

The match ups are, like you said, 55:45, which is pretty much 50:50 (as the advantage is marginal at best).

So if a character goes "even" with everyone else at worst and has a "marginal advantage" at best, how is that character not a lot better than all others? Marginal advantages add up, especially in the absence of any serious flaws. *That* is why he's so good, not because he's actually unbeatable/ban-worthy in any way.

 

[TurnOneWrath]

MK is a tit with wings. Not a bat.

I guess by 'tit' you mean whatever it is that Kirby is. I did some reading up on him yesterday in the Trophy section, and it turns out he doesn't have wings. His cape can turn into wings (somehow).

 

[link2702]

XD TurnOne doesn't get it....

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

In Melee low tiers can capitalize on the lack of matchup experience with their character harder (usually) due to combos, higher likelihood of leaving an opening or making a mistake, and generally the higher number of options in Melee.

Most matchups in melee don't COMPLETELY lockdown the low-tier, leaving it with a fighting chance by exploiting gaps in the oppositions knowledge of his character, how to counter this or that move, how to deal with this movement, etc. There are, of course, extremes (like Marth vs. Pichu, Fox vs. Zelda, Sheik vs. Chaingrabables, etc.) but for the most part, this is true.

In Brawl many characters literally get locked down because of the lack of offensive options and the overall inability to break through top tier defenses. There are of course, gimmicks that low-tiers in Brawl have, but they are generally useless and inconsequential vs. someone who just camps all day and doesn't care because even if he gets hit, he will at most take like 20%.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

In Melee low tiers can capitalize on the lack of matchup experience with their character harder (usually) due to combos, higher likelihood of leaving an opening or making a mistake, and generally the higher number of options in Melee.

Most matchups in melee don't COMPLETELY lockdown the low-tier, leaving it with a fighting chance by exploiting gaps in the oppositions knowledge of his character, how to counter this or that move, how to deal with this movement, etc. There are, of course, extremes (like Marth vs. Pichu, Fox vs. Zelda, Sheik vs. Chaingrabables, etc.) but for the most part, this is true.

In Brawl many characters literally get locked down because of the lack of offensive options and the overall inability to break through top tier defenses. There are of course, gimmicks that low-tiers in Brawl have, but they are generally useless and inconsequential vs. someone who just camps all day and doesn't care because even if he gets hit, he will at most take like 20%.

So this explains why most of Melee's cast is in Low tier, where as most of Brawl's is in Mid tier some of which are placing at nationals.

 

[Ghostbone]

I think the difference between brawl and melee is that in brawl the low tiers generally have a few matchups with small disadvantages, but then a few auto losses or massive disadvantages, people just don't counter them with those characters.
Plus there's also the thing in brawl of "learn how to beat MK and you'll automatically place well"
In melee the low tiers generally have small disadvantages against most of the characters.
(excluding Sheik in NTSC and IC is both, but IC are easily the hardest or second hardest characters to play in the game, so you can't just pick them up and **** with them, unlike D3 against DK in brawl)
So yea that's the difference IMO.

Oh and Melee low tiers are placing at nationals, a roy main got 25th at ROM3.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

A character being easier to learn and play has nothing to do with balance.

 

[SmashChu]

So if a character goes "even" with everyone else at worst and has a "marginal advantage" at best, how is that character not a lot better than all others? Marginal advantages add up, especially in the absence of any serious flaws. *That* is why he's so good, not because he's actually unbeatable/ban-worthy in any way.

As far as a 55:45 match-up, it's really a 50:50. The advantage is so small that it to also be argued in the other direction. Someone very knowledgeable could say Meta-Knight has most 45:55 match-ups in the other side's favor.

50:50 match ups are around are good, but it is far from unstoppable (at least for the top characters anyway). It means he's a good character, but it also means the game is pretty balanced as well (as I recall, C. Viper in SSF4 is 50:50 against the entire cast and isn't top tier).

 

[JOE!]

@ghost:

get back to me when a really low tier gets like 8th or better at a national, not 25th

 

[Big-Cat]

50:50 match ups are around are good, but it is far from unstoppable (at least for the top characters anyway). It means he's a good character, but it also means the game is pretty balanced as well (as I recall, C. Viper in SSF4 is 50:50 against the entire cast and isn't top tier).

The concern is more about how his lowest matchup is a 50:50, meaning he has no truly bad matchups. At least with other characters, you have a reason why you wouldn't want to use that character because of bad matchups (and the opposite applies as well), but you have a problem if there is no reason to NOT pick a character.

Also, Viper has her share of good, bad, and average matchups. Her lowest is 30:70 against Honda (but he's always been bad for her). When you add the matchup scores up (unlike what the Smash tiers use), she's low tier, but is amongst Ibuki, Vega, Cody, and El Fuerte for being around the 170 mark (meaning she's almost balanced matchups wise).

EDIT: To clarify, I meant that there is no reason to NOT pick MetaKnight in the negative sense. The positive sense would be that you can have that character go against any character and it's a 50:50.

 

[Turazrok]

Alright..

In brawl every matchup in the game is in meta's favor. Don't argue it. And no one can **** meta hardcore if he doesn't know the matchup except like.. ic's.

In comparison if in melee a fox is playing a midtier (DK,Doc,Mario) all three have 0-deaths on him initiated from a grab that are relatively easy to perform. Even pikachu can 0-death grab fox.

Although the matchup is in fox's favor it is quite easy to get the upperhand if he isn't playing perfect. Whereas meta can make as many mistakes as he wants

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

That's what I was saying Turazok, but Red had to be a little ***** and make some idiotic claims.

So this explains why most of Melee's cast is in Low tier, where as most of Brawl's is in Mid tier some of which are placing at nationals.

Not only did this have no relevance to what I said, but you imply that low tiers in melee have no presence in nationals.

I was saying that since the punishment game in Melee is much less forgiving than in Brawl, it is easier for a low tier to capitalize on a single mistake or read and take a stock. In Brawl however, because of the ****ty physics and complete lack of offensive options (unless you are Metaknight), most lower tiers get completely locked down, maybe getting 20% off a good read, but no more.

Also 0-deaths on Fox aren't easy. They're very tech-strenuous and very easy to mess up.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Alright..

In brawl every matchup in the game is in meta's favor. Don't argue it. And no one can **** meta hardcore if he doesn't know the matchup except like.. ic's.

In comparison if in melee a fox is playing a midtier (DK,Doc,Mario) all three have 0-deaths on him initiated from a grab that are relatively easy to perform. Even pikachu can 0-death grab fox.

Although the matchup is in fox's favor it is quite easy to get the upperhand if he isn't playing perfect. Whereas meta can make as many mistakes as he wants

Everyone gets wrecked by anyone if one person knows the match-up and the other doesn't. If the match-up is that lopsided where he can walk into a watch-up and **** it, he would be Ivan Ooze good, which MK clearly isn't.

That's what I was saying Turazok, but Red had to be a little ***** and make some idiotic claims.



Not only did this have no relevance to what I said, but you imply that low tiers in melee have no presence in nationals.

I was saying that since the punishment game in Melee is much less forgiving than in Brawl, it is easier for a low tier to capitalize on a single mistake or read and take a stock. In Brawl however, because of the ****ty physics and complete lack of offensive options (unless you are Metaknight), most lower tiers get completely locked down, maybe getting 20% off a good read, but no more.

Also 0-deaths on Fox aren't easy. They're very tech-strenuous and very easy to mess up.

I never said they didn't have influence.

It's relevant because while there is a mid tier in Melee a large chunk of the cast is thrown even lower than that. For Brawl a large portion of the cast is in mid tier.

Your claim about low tiers being locked down applies to Brawl as well. If MK screws up against Ganon, he be tech chased with side B or die under 100%.

The rest of this just comes off as arrogance really.

And against, skill to do something has nothing to do with character balance.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

I laughed at your claim that Ganon has anything close to a chance at touching Metaknight.

Meanwhile characters like Roy, Pikachu, and even Pichu have 0-deaths on Fox/Falco. Sheik/Marth are probably the only universal low-tier crushers.

 

[Jonas]

MK is a tit with wings. Not a bat.

Nah, those a bat wings. Look:

Doesn't look even remotely like MK.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I laughed at your claim that Ganon has anything close to a chance at touching Metaknight.

Meanwhile characters like Roy, Pikachu, and even Pichu have 0-deaths on Fox/Falco. Sheik/Marth are probably the only universal low-tier crushers.

Top level players aren't going to lose to low tiers if the match-up is that bad, will Pichu beat a top level Marth? Will Bowser beat a top level Sheik?

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

I just said that Sheik/Marth the universal low tier killers and you go and repeat exactly what I stated.

Usually people have to actually try to be this dense.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Maybe because you've done nothing but cherry pick match-ups rather than looking at the cast as a whole.

Mk vs Ganon does not tell anyone general character balance just like Fox vs Kirby won't.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

I'm not even talking about specific matchups; that's what you're doing.

I'm saying that in general the ability to punish in melee is higher, that a single mistake yields greater reward if capitalized upon. This gives low-tiers a chance if they can get that good read or bait. They can also edgeguard, a universal ability in melee.

In Brawl not only are far fewer things punishable (lack of offensive options), but the punishes are far weaker. This forces the low-tier rely on measly 20% "combos." Edgeguarding is also out of the question so low tiers are also forced to straight up KO, which won't probably happen until a good 100+% is dealt.

 

[Djent]

I still don't agree with Smashchu about Meta Knight's even matchups (IMO he's got like, 2 at best), but whatever. I doubt I'll convince anyone and winning that part of the argument really doesn't mean much to me, so I'll just agree to disagree.

However, I really don't think that low tiers were really as screwed as A Pimp Named Slickback claims either. What he says about punishment is undeniably true, but I don't think that leads to low tiers being unviable, since the top tiers won't be "0-deathing" anyone either (save for a few select match-ups). This year's various nationals really don't back up the notion that Brawl is completely hopeless for low tiers at all.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm not even talking about specific matchups; that's what you're doing.

I'm saying that in general the ability to punish in melee is higher, that a single mistake yields greater reward if capitalized upon. This gives low-tiers a chance if they can get that good read or bait. They can also edgeguard, a universal ability in melee.

In Brawl not only are far fewer things punishable (lack of offensive options), but the punishes are far weaker. This forces the low-tier rely on measly 20% "combos." Edgeguarding is also out of the question so low tiers are also forced to straight up KO, which won't probably happen until a good 100+% is dealt.

Your comparing the mechanics of Melee and Brawl without actually looking at what actually happens and the match-ups themselves, nor how they turn out.

Plus your saying what low tiers can do only to higher tiered characters. What about the other way around in Melee. Fox and Falco, get 0-death'd, yet they still win those match-ups because they can avoid it.

Results also speak louder than words, Brawl is showing off better results for those mid/low tiers, even regions have it good, best player in IL is a Wolf, best in Alabama is a Pokemon Trainer, Best in Georgia is a Luigi, best player in Nevada is a Sonic. Then look at MLG Dallas, 12 different characters in the top 16 pro bracket, that's one of the most diverse ones in Brawl's national history. Go even further down and a Yoshi was one win away from getting into the Pro Bracket.

 

[Deleted member]

Removed by Moderator

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm not going to deny that viability can vary between tournament results, however even looking at APEX for Brawl all the way down like Melee, granted I wish Melee had every character used listed it's missing some near the bottom.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283374&highlight=APEX+results

1: hungrybox
2: Armada
3: mew2king:shiek:
4: Dr. Peepee
5: Axe
6: Wobbles
7: Jman
7: Zhu
9: Dashizwiz
9: Eggm
9: Vanz
9: Hax
13: Cyrain
13: I. B
13: Darc
13: ChuDat
17: Eggz
17: Raynex
17: Chopz
17: Kage the Warrior
17: Taj:mewtwo:
17: Chillindude829
17: Lucky - CA
17: Silent Wolf
25: Scorpion Master
25: Unknown522
25: Cactuar
25: Diakonos
25: Tec0:shiek:
25: MacD
25: Blunted_Object10
25: Th0rn
33: Colbol
33: Smashmac
33: D1
33: Enz0 kf
33: Tag$
33: stabbedbyanipple
33: G$
33: PC Chris
33: Plank:shiek:
33: everlating yayuhzz
33: Ether
33: Banks:shiek:
33: Alukard
33: VisT
33: Mr. F
33: WarriorKnight

Brawl

BRACKET IMAGE

1: DEHF
2: Brood
3: mew2king
4: Lee Martin
5: Ally
5: lain
7: Rain
7: Atomsk
9: Anti
9: Shadow
9: san
9: Shugo
13: Inui
13: Sweet Pea
13: Gnes
13: Malcolm
17: Bizkit
17: Doom
17: Earth:shiek:
17: NinjaLink:random:
17: UltimateRazer
17: ChuDat
17: Jerm
17: Vex Kasrani
25: Nairo
25: Swordgard
25: Jash
25: SK92
25: Blue Rogue
25: Logic
25: HolyNightmare
25: Patg
33: Eggz
33: Keitaro
33: Jtails
33: CO18
33: Koolaid
33: Bill_
33: Cable
33: Junebug
33: vVv Fino
33: Bloodcross
33: Vinnie
33: Squall
33: speed
33: Kel
33: Snakeee
33: MintyFlesh
49: TUSM
49: Orion
49: Fujita
49: Will
49: Zucco
49: Coney
49: Trela
49: TeeVee
49: Dr. Grandpa
49: Boss
49: suinoko
49: jbandrew
49: Big Lou
49: Deltacod
49: Chaos Marth

Of course this is debatable, but to be honest, I really think Brawl has better diversity when compared to the melee. Especially when looking at PRs and results.

Now about the gameplay, it is true that the punishes are harder on top tiers when used by low tiers, however, Top tier are still, well top tier, because they can punish harder and avoid the punishes. Even in Brawl punishes are lacking, even Top tier don't necessarily have the best punishes or low tiers don't completely lack offensive options.

For edge guarding, it still happens, it just doesn't necessarily mean it will lead into a gimp, which still happens even at higher levels of play. MK is an exception because he has the best edge guarding and recovery of any character in Brawl.

So while punishes don't lead into 0-deaths, combos, or edge guarding doesn't mean that the balance is necessarily worse since game mechanics like the floatier nature of Brawl or the less combos affects the cast as a whole, which hasn't made character balance worse.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

It does though.

The lack of punishing ability affects the lower tiers more, since they rely on the hard punishes off one mistake to win. In Brawl low tiers have to get several of these to take off a single stock, not to mention how easily higher tiers restrict movement options, since there is far less freedom of movement.

APEX was quite an exceptional tournament for both games. I also think that when talking about diversity you forget that Brawl has far more characters, so the appearance of different faces should be scaled as there is a wider selection.

 

[SmashChu]

I still don't agree with Smashchu about Meta Knight's even matchups (IMO he's got like, 2 at best), but whatever. I doubt I'll convince anyone and winning that part of the argument really doesn't mean much to me, so I'll just agree to disagree.

Well, they may have changed since I looked. I just remember that he had 50:50s against most of the top cast save, like Dedede (and yes, I an counting 55:45 as 50:50).

 

[The Phazon Assassin]

That should be a Dedede next to my name.

Oh, hi guys.

 

[Deleted member]

Removed by Moderator

 

[Djent]

If 55:45 was actually 50:50, then the matchup would be 50:50, not 55:45.

I'm guessing he doesn't agree with the idea of 5-point increments in matchups. Sort of like how the SSF4 community will do 4:6 and 5:5, but for the most part avoid 4.5:5.5.

 

[SmashChu]

If 55:45 was actually 50:50, then the matchup would be 50:50, not 55:45.

I'm guessing he doesn't agree with the idea of 5-point increments in matchups. Sort of like how the SSF4 community will do 4:6 and 5:5, but for the most part avoid 4.5:5.5.

I mentioned it before, but I call a 55:45 a 50:50 because the actual difference is so small that it could be argued for either side. Since a 60:40 is a slight disadvantage/advantage a 55:45 is to small to call in either side.