Redknight7
Smash Apprentice
I'm not much a Brawl player, but I was wondering how big of gaps in the Tiers are there in this game compared to Melee. It seemed in Melee they were pretty big
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Meta-Knight is good, but is far over stated of how good he is. He has a 50:50 match up with all the top tiers except like 2. Also, he doesn't stop tournaments much more than any other character. He's good, no doubt, but looking though tournament results, he seems to be just a bit better.My first impression is this: it seems like low tiers actually place more in Brawl, although this data is skewed because of how many more tournaments Brawl has than Melee. I also get the impression that Melee has a more balanced top tier than Brawl does (due to the absence of a certain winged bat). So my guess is that:
In Brawl, the gap between Top and High tiers is larger than in Melee, but the gap between Top and Bottom tiers is roughly the same.
^^THIS^^Meta-Knight is good, but is far over stated of how good he is.
^^THIS^^
I'd say the Melee tiers have just as large tier gaps as Brawl does. Fox, Falco, Jigglypuff, Marth, and Shiek are miles ahead of everyone else in Melee, while Meta-Knight, Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Wario, and Marth are similarly above the rest of the crowd in Brawl. On the opposite side of the spectrum, Melee's Kirby, Pichu, and Mewtwo aren't worth their weight in dirt, while in Brawl that applies to Link, Ganondorf, and Samus. Even though it's noticable, the gaps aren't auto-wins (by FAR not), but they are still there. All-in-all, it's about the same. IMO
That's a bat?I also get the impression that Melee has a more balanced top tier than Brawl does (due to the absence of a certain winged bat).
I beg to differ. I don't think any of his MU's are completely even; all of them are on MK's side. MK is overused because people exaggerate his strengths so much, that while it's partially true, the huge usage of MK spreads like a virus. Most of his high tier MUs are 55:45, which is really not that much of a difference, but an advantage for him nonetheless. MK tends to be easy to pick up, and easy to win with.He has a 50:50 match up with all the top tiers except like 2.
The match ups are, like you said, 55:45, which is pretty much 50:50 (as the advantage is marginal at best).I beg to differ. I don't think any of his MU's are completely even; all of them are on MK's side. MK is overused because people exaggerate his strengths so much, that while it's partially true, the huge usage of MK spreads like a virus. Most of his high tier MUs are 55:45, which is really not that much of a difference, but an advantage for him nonetheless. MK tends to be easy to pick up, and easy to win with.
I disagree. As good as they are in theory, you never see any of those Melee top tiers taking up 3 or 4 spaces in the top 8 at a national. Whereas in Brawl, such a thing has happened on several occasions with Meta Knight.I'd say the Melee tiers have just as large tier gaps as Brawl does. Fox, Falco, Jigglypuff, Marth, and Shiek are miles ahead of everyone else in Melee, while Meta-Knight, Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Wario, and Marth are similarly above the rest of the crowd in Brawl. On the opposite side of the spectrum, Melee's Kirby, Pichu, and Mewtwo aren't worth their weight in dirt, while in Brawl that applies to Link, Ganondorf, and Samus. Even though it's noticable, the gaps aren't auto-wins (by FAR not), but they are still there. All-in-all, it's about the same. IMO
So if a character goes "even" with everyone else at worst and has a "marginal advantage" at best, how is that character not a lot better than all others? Marginal advantages add up, especially in the absence of any serious flaws. *That* is why he's so good, not because he's actually unbeatable/ban-worthy in any way.The match ups are, like you said, 55:45, which is pretty much 50:50 (as the advantage is marginal at best).
I guess by 'tit' you mean whatever it is that Kirby is. I did some reading up on him yesterday in the Trophy section, and it turns out he doesn't have wings. His cape can turn into wings (somehow).MK is a tit with wings. Not a bat.
So this explains why most of Melee's cast is in Low tier, where as most of Brawl's is in Mid tier some of which are placing at nationals.In Melee low tiers can capitalize on the lack of matchup experience with their character harder (usually) due to combos, higher likelihood of leaving an opening or making a mistake, and generally the higher number of options in Melee.
Most matchups in melee don't COMPLETELY lockdown the low-tier, leaving it with a fighting chance by exploiting gaps in the oppositions knowledge of his character, how to counter this or that move, how to deal with this movement, etc. There are, of course, extremes (like Marth vs. Pichu, Fox vs. Zelda, Sheik vs. Chaingrabables, etc.) but for the most part, this is true.
In Brawl many characters literally get locked down because of the lack of offensive options and the overall inability to break through top tier defenses. There are of course, gimmicks that low-tiers in Brawl have, but they are generally useless and inconsequential vs. someone who just camps all day and doesn't care because even if he gets hit, he will at most take like 20%.
As far as a 55:45 match-up, it's really a 50:50. The advantage is so small that it to also be argued in the other direction. Someone very knowledgeable could say Meta-Knight has most 45:55 match-ups in the other side's favor.So if a character goes "even" with everyone else at worst and has a "marginal advantage" at best, how is that character not a lot better than all others? Marginal advantages add up, especially in the absence of any serious flaws. *That* is why he's so good, not because he's actually unbeatable/ban-worthy in any way.
The concern is more about how his lowest matchup is a 50:50, meaning he has no truly bad matchups. At least with other characters, you have a reason why you wouldn't want to use that character because of bad matchups (and the opposite applies as well), but you have a problem if there is no reason to NOT pick a character.50:50 match ups are around are good, but it is far from unstoppable (at least for the top characters anyway). It means he's a good character, but it also means the game is pretty balanced as well (as I recall, C. Viper in SSF4 is 50:50 against the entire cast and isn't top tier).
Not only did this have no relevance to what I said, but you imply that low tiers in melee have no presence in nationals.Red Ryu said:So this explains why most of Melee's cast is in Low tier, where as most of Brawl's is in Mid tier some of which are placing at nationals.
Everyone gets wrecked by anyone if one person knows the match-up and the other doesn't. If the match-up is that lopsided where he can walk into a watch-up and **** it, he would be Ivan Ooze good, which MK clearly isn't.Alright..
In brawl every matchup in the game is in meta's favor. Don't argue it. And no one can **** meta hardcore if he doesn't know the matchup except like.. ic's.
In comparison if in melee a fox is playing a midtier (DK,Doc,Mario) all three have 0-deaths on him initiated from a grab that are relatively easy to perform. Even pikachu can 0-death grab fox.
Although the matchup is in fox's favor it is quite easy to get the upperhand if he isn't playing perfect. Whereas meta can make as many mistakes as he wants
I never said they didn't have influence.That's what I was saying Turazok, but Red had to be a little ***** and make some idiotic claims.
Not only did this have no relevance to what I said, but you imply that low tiers in melee have no presence in nationals.
I was saying that since the punishment game in Melee is much less forgiving than in Brawl, it is easier for a low tier to capitalize on a single mistake or read and take a stock. In Brawl however, because of the ****ty physics and complete lack of offensive options (unless you are Metaknight), most lower tiers get completely locked down, maybe getting 20% off a good read, but no more.
Also 0-deaths on Fox aren't easy. They're very tech-strenuous and very easy to mess up.
Nah, those a bat wings. Look:MK is a tit with wings. Not a bat.
Top level players aren't going to lose to low tiers if the match-up is that bad, will Pichu beat a top level Marth? Will Bowser beat a top level Sheik?I laughed at your claim that Ganon has anything close to a chance at touching Metaknight.
Meanwhile characters like Roy, Pikachu, and even Pichu have 0-deaths on Fox/Falco. Sheik/Marth are probably the only universal low-tier crushers.
Your comparing the mechanics of Melee and Brawl without actually looking at what actually happens and the match-ups themselves, nor how they turn out.I'm not even talking about specific matchups; that's what you're doing.
I'm saying that in general the ability to punish in melee is higher, that a single mistake yields greater reward if capitalized upon. This gives low-tiers a chance if they can get that good read or bait. They can also edgeguard, a universal ability in melee.
In Brawl not only are far fewer things punishable (lack of offensive options), but the punishes are far weaker. This forces the low-tier rely on measly 20% "combos." Edgeguarding is also out of the question so low tiers are also forced to straight up KO, which won't probably happen until a good 100+% is dealt.
Of course this is debatable, but to be honest, I really think Brawl has better diversity when compared to the melee. Especially when looking at PRs and results.1: hungrybox
2: Armada
3: mew2king:shiek:
4: Dr. Peepee
5: Axe
6: Wobbles
7: Jman
7: Zhu
9: Dashizwiz
9: Eggm
9: Vanz
9: Hax
13: Cyrain
13: I. B
13: Darc
13: ChuDat
17: Eggz
17: Raynex
17: Chopz
17: Kage the Warrior
17: Taj:mewtwo:
17: Chillindude829
17: Lucky - CA
17: Silent Wolf
25: Scorpion Master
25: Unknown522
25: Cactuar
25: Diakonos
25: Tec0:shiek:
25: MacD
25: Blunted_Object10
25: Th0rn
33: Colbol
33: Smashmac
33: D1
33: Enz0 kf
33: Tag$
33: stabbedbyanipple
33: G$
33: PC Chris
33: Plank:shiek:
33: everlating yayuhzz
33: Ether
33: Banks:shiek:
33: Alukard
33: VisT
33: Mr. F
33: WarriorKnight
Brawl
BRACKET IMAGE
1: DEHF
2: Brood
3: mew2king
4: Lee Martin
5: Ally
5: lain
7: Rain
7: Atomsk
9: Anti
9: Shadow
9: san
9: Shugo
13: Inui
13: Sweet Pea
13: Gnes
13: Malcolm
17: Bizkit
17: Doom
17: Earth:shiek:
17: NinjaLink:random:
17: UltimateRazer
17: ChuDat
17: Jerm
17: Vex Kasrani
25: Nairo
25: Swordgard
25: Jash
25: SK92
25: Blue Rogue
25: Logic
25: HolyNightmare
25: Patg
33: Eggz
33: Keitaro
33: Jtails
33: CO18
33: Koolaid
33: Bill_
33: Cable
33: Junebug
33: vVv Fino
33: Bloodcross
33: Vinnie
33: Squall
33: speed
33: Kel
33: Snakeee
33: MintyFlesh
49: TUSM
49: Orion
49: Fujita
49: Will
49: Zucco
49: Coney
49: Trela
49: TeeVee
49: Dr. Grandpa
49: Boss
49: suinoko
49: jbandrew
49: Big Lou
49: Deltacod
49: Chaos Marth
Well, they may have changed since I looked. I just remember that he had 50:50s against most of the top cast save, like Dedede (and yes, I an counting 55:45 as 50:50).I still don't agree with Smashchu about Meta Knight's even matchups (IMO he's got like, 2 at best), but whatever. I doubt I'll convince anyone and winning that part of the argument really doesn't mean much to me, so I'll just agree to disagree.
I'm guessing he doesn't agree with the idea of 5-point increments in matchups. Sort of like how the SSF4 community will do 4:6 and 5:5, but for the most part avoid 4.5:5.5.If 55:45 was actually 50:50, then the matchup would be 50:50, not 55:45.
If 55:45 was actually 50:50, then the matchup would be 50:50, not 55:45.
I mentioned it before, but I call a 55:45 a 50:50 because the actual difference is so small that it could be argued for either side. Since a 60:40 is a slight disadvantage/advantage a 55:45 is to small to call in either side.I'm guessing he doesn't agree with the idea of 5-point increments in matchups. Sort of like how the SSF4 community will do 4:6 and 5:5, but for the most part avoid 4.5:5.5.