Thoughts on pika competitively

[The TaBuu]

Pikachu seems to be cursed in the "greater work for less reward" tier huh? I hate that this may continue the whole "too much effort -> noob unfriendly -> low popularity" thing.

It's weird that I'm thinking this, but Japan putting Pika as low tier makes me think that they are at a lower caliber or dedication level than I thought they were, which makes zero sense. Pika's quick moves and nature of those moves means he has tools particularly suited for people that excel at technical precision and reactionary tactics, which I thought were traits of expert players. Maybe they're viewing the whole "not worth the effort" thing a major disadvantage? I wonder what their logic is...

Well let's take a look at the current top 5 on the Japanese tier list : Sheik, Yoshi, Rosalina, Greninja and Zero Suit Samus.
All 5 of these characters are highly mobile and are able to move across the stage fairly quickly. The top 5 also possess a strong neutral game as they can apply pressure with low-commitment moves such as Sheik's Ftilt/Needle or Zero Suit Samus's Jab or possibly even Yoshi's Dtilt. I haven't really played too much with these characters yet so excuse the ambiguity lol.
Another interesting thing to note is how well these characters are rewarded for offensive options. These top 5 characters are all capable of ending stocks should they choose to transition from neutral > advantage. I guess this is where the whole "x amount of work/commitment yields y amount of reward".
Now lets take a look at Pikachu.
Pikachu possess high mobility and a strong neutral game as Jab, Ftilt and Dtilt are low commitment, low risk moves that are capable of leading into a conversion.
Pikachu may or may not reward as much as these top 5 characters which is possibly one of the reasons as to why Pikachu isn't ranked higher on the list. I would like somebody to confirm this however. Pikachu's (lackluster?) decent KO potential may be what is holding him back as even if Pikachu players choose to go offensive and manage to rack up damage, they may not be able to convert into a KO. This is risky and therefore the risk vs reward here doesn't favor Pikachu.
Another reason may be Pikachu's average/below average (though I doubt the latter) match-up spread across the board. With the loss of matchups that could end quickly with a single chaingrab (aka Brawl Fox vs Brawl Pikachu) and Pikachu's lack of tools that can straight up shut down certain characters (Although no character really has this in this game I'm pretty sure), Pikachu may have to deal with a lot of 5/5s, some 4/5s and 6/5s which may affect his tier placement.

But this is all talk from one Smash newbie. What do you guys think?

 

[dettadeus]

The general opinion I have on Pikachu is that you have the tools to win literally any matchup and control the neutral game at all times, but you have to put in several times more work than your opponent to accomplish these things. In most of the games that I've played Pikachu with good players in my region, I have complete control of the match and I end up dealing several times more damage than my opponent; the only problem is that Pikachu is basically the only character that doesn't have a move which can randomly kill you at 80 or lower as a punish. Or kill power in general. However, it doesn't really matter if you kill your opponent at 200 with a forward tilt if you have taken maybe 70% in the process.

I'll be uploading some more videos today, had a lot of good matches with a ROB player on FG.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I could agree with both you guys' posts there.

What we need are tournament results. We believe Pikachu has the tools to handle just about any situation but requires more work. And coupled with a lack of range, no exceedingly powerful KO moves outside of off stage chasing/gimping, there is a higher risk factor involved outside of camping mercilessly. The only thing that's going to prove that Pikachu can "do things" is by getting in some tournaments and taking names. You need smart, capable, intelligent and creative players who understand ALL of these things and learn to work with them. But results are the only way public opinion of Pikachu is going to change. I definitely agree we're gonna see a LOT of 5:5, 4.5: 5.5, 4:6 type of matchups.

EDIT: On the brightside, if people see a good Pikachu far in tournament, they're gonna know that Pika player is on some **** lol.

 

[dettadeus]

We need all that... and ESAM lmao. ESAM on Smash4 Pika will be absolutely terrifying.

 

[The TaBuu]

Agreed. Pikachu does need some tournament result. Thankfully Pikachu doesn't get outright trashed by any match-ups thanks to his character build. But unfortunately he doesn't have the tools to do the same in this iteration of Smash. Honestly, from an objective and honestly blunt point of view, Pikachu doesn't have the right tools to become a top tier character. Definitely high-tier no doubt in my mind. But not top tier. The amount of work that Pikachu needs to put in that other characters could achieve with less risk can be a 'turn-off' factor. Honestly, I say this now, props to any smash 4 Pikachu mains that place well in tournament. They deserve it more than other characters imo hahahaha

and yes. @[FBC] ESAM where you at

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Let's get our boy Axe in there and start trashing people with Pikachu in Smash 4, then we'll see good results XD

 

[Angiance]

Unfortunately we lost N-Air's KO power (N-Air being our fastest, safest, and most effective KO option in Brawl)

We also lost the ability to Star KO off of Thunder, which is a huuuuge debuff

Hopefully Sakurai patches Pikachu up in the future, because we're extremely flawed

 

[The TaBuu]

Nair is still a very solid option off stage for providing further knockback > inability to recover for certain characters. Otherwise I agree completely about Nairs KO nerf and the Thunder nerf as well.

Played some Pikachu on For Glory last night and while Pikachu just feels "right" and heavily combo-oriented, I feel more convinced that Pikachu is held back by the fact that his conversions cannot lead into a KO, meaning Pikachu isn't rewarded as heavily as other characters for going in

 

[Psyant]

It's just kind of weird. Pikachu runs a train on people so hard in this game, I feel maybe even harder than any previous games. It feels like many characters have relatively few options and end up being fairly predictable, but Pikachu has so many tools and is so fast that the average opponent can barely keep up or defend themselves against you.

But then you see that 3 hits of yours equals 1 of theirs in damage, and even though you feel like you're beating the hell out of your opponent, the % is equal.

Seems to just be a theme of this game in general. Light, fast characters actually ARE weak now. No light, fast, combo heavy Pikachu that also happens to have the strongest up smash in the game. No Fox with easy up throw up air or up smash kills at low %. Light characters got away with still having strong killing moves in previous games, which basically made most heavyweights worthless, but this has been massively changed in this iteration in order to make hard hitting slower characters actually worth playing. You can see this not only with Pikachu but other light and relatively fast or combo heavy characters like Fox, Metaknight, Kirby, who also now have to work very hard to get a kill.

IMO the new balance between lightweights and heavyweights, power and speed is one of if not the biggest core change of this game from a balancing perspective. And as much as it makes it harder for the lightweights, I think it's fair. Pikachu and other lightweights can still do it, but you really need to push that speed as far as it'll go now.

 

[Nocally]

I pretty much agree with everyone in this thread, Pikachu does seem kinda weak, but is still a solid character if you know how to play him. While I do see Pikachu struggle in some match-ups, but mostly when he is behind in stocks, He does seem to be able to fight on even grounds with some of the considered "Top Tier" characters like Sheik, Greninja, and maybe ZZS (Or I haven´t met any good players using them yet.)

Edit: I still hope custom moves become legal in tournament play since Pikchu can make use of them as a surprise factor.

 

[Choice Scarf]

That makes sense. Faster chars can more easily do the "death by a thousand cuts" tactic and straight up evade moves, so the damage distribution will at least make it feel like both lightweights and heavyweights will need to equally stay on their toes. And out of the lightweights Pika feels like one of the more effective ones, so he should be fine against anyone and at least mid-tier.

 

[Tagxy]

Posting this here before I forget. Pikachus bair/fair have a spike if interrupted. Theres different ways it can interrupt, one being with an opponents attack, but another one I accidently found out is with the stage. If you land into the stage while hitting them they get spiked.

Also after watching videos of ESAM, I see now that thunder is way better than it was before.

 

[dettadeus]

It's not if they're interrupted, if you only hit a single time it happens. You can accomplish this by clipping people with double jump or fastfall Fair and well spaced bairs (FF bair is risky).

 

[M15t3R E]

Also after watching videos of ESAM, I see now that thunder is way better than it was before.

Thunder hits Pikachu faster than it did in Brawl. Around half of my KO's are moving to a position so that the opponent falls into the Thunder shockwave. It's a fair trade-off for the lack of vertical distance thunder covers now. However, you are probably referring to ESAM's usage of the cloud that spikes the opponent.
http://www.twitch.tv/nakat973/c/5347694 --- Watch from 3:10 to 3:30.

 

[The TaBuu]

This is probably something everyone here already knows but I thought I should just post it here for the newer players.
Quick Attack has received a buff in hitstun. This means that at higher percentage, QAing into you opponent and then following it up with a Smash Attack can be a basic yet useful KO set-up.
I'm not sure if the hitstun is long enough for the opponent to raise shield before your Smash Attack, but every player I've managed to land a surprise QA on, I have yet to have been denied a Smash KO

 

[M15t3R E]

This is probably something everyone here already knows but I thought I should just post it here for the newer players.
Quick Attack has received a buff in hitstun. This means that at higher percentage, QAing into you opponent and then following it up with a Smash Attack can be a basic yet useful KO set-up.
I'm not sure if the hitstun is long enough for the opponent to raise shield before your Smash Attack, but every player I've managed to land a surprise QA on, I have yet to have been denied a Smash KO

Yes, which is amazing. You can also pivot grab after you QA into them. Or aerial. Ya know, I was bummed when I learned that QAC is only possible on sloped stages now but now it is even easier to QA --> any aerial attack even without QAC due to how high QA's hitstun is and also thanks to its lower landing lag.

 

[The TaBuu]

Speaking of pivot grab, has anyone noticed the range of Pikachu's Roll Cancel Dash Grab? I'm not sure if it's anything significant or not

 

[M15t3R E]

Speaking of pivot grab, has anyone noticed the range of Pikachu's Roll Cancel Dash Grab? I'm not sure if it's anything significant or not

I don't notice a difference between it in Brawl and the 3DS version.

 

[Nocally]

Everyone is praising Sheik/Shiek at the moment, she is fast and a good combo-able character, but seems to have trouble killing... all of this describes Pikachu too, are we just lucky no one notices Pika, or unlucky that Shiek gets all the glory(matches)?

Or is Shiek just that much better to be considered top 5 this early in the game? ( I don't know about her damage output/ safety on opponents shield)

 

[Psyant]

Honestly I think Sheik is just easier to play. On top of that, regardless of where they sit on the tier list, you can see within one day of playing on For Glory that people flock to the human-like characters. They're more natural and familiar for most. Pikachu and Sheik have similar strengths and weaknesses, but one is a normal looking human character with easily understandable moves and Pikachu is a tiny little mouse that isn't as forward in how he should be played.

Also Pikachu is also slept on in like every single game except 64. Just see it as a good thing. This way you get to play a good character that people still have little match up experience against.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Sheik is soooo flowchart. Pikachu is not. People be lazy. They'd rather take the easier option.

 

[Gamingboy]

The more I play Pikachu in for glory, the more I realize that Pikachu is paradoxically both strong and weak. He can drive an enemy nuts, survive almost every KO attempt that doesn't send him instantly off the screen (so long as you don't screw up the recovery due to lag or the difficulty in Up-Bing on the 3DS), and put a ton of damage on the opponent... but it's really hard to get the KO. So, basically, Pikachu can easily win a lot of fights... it'll just take longer.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Yeah after playing a decent amount of For Glory, I've found Pika to be a little underwhelming in the KO department, but everything else is great. Also after playing some Project M I've grown very appreciative of Pika's newfound power in his dash attack.

 

[tm730]

i might have been tripping but i coulda swore that when pikachu landed from the b-air and the opponent tried to grab pika right away, the grab missed...the way pikachu lands on the ground during b-air has him literally flat on the ground...did that happen for anyone else?

 

[dettadeus]

happens against like every character, fair sometimes works too

 

[Pikabunz]

I just played a few Lucarios and I think he might end up being our hardest match-up.

 

[Nevarro]

Honestly I think Sheik is just easier to play.

I found this amusing since shiek was my go to character when I baught the game. But quickly decided to try others, finding myself playing pikachu instead as he felt easier for me. I think I need look at using thunder and QA more as I barely use either

 

[dettadeus]

I just played a few Lucarios and I think he might end up being our hardest match-up.

nah, it's even. i played a ton with the guy who won our first official smash4 tournament with lucario (he's a longtime vet of our scene who mained lucario in brawl) and he thinks the MU is even or slightly in pika's favor because we never actually have to get hit most of the time, and pika's usmash kills at 120 if it hits. normally lucario can survive a lot of stuff at higher percents and he ends up getting to 150-170 and then kills you at 40, but with pika if you just get him to 120 and fish for usmash safely there's nothing lucario can do really.

 

[hell-dew]

People who are having trouble killing need to abuse their options better. Try mixing up upsmash OOS and Spotdodge upsmash more. IMO our shield is one of our stupidest tools (one of the reasons wifi drives me nuts i cant PS at all Q.Q)

 

[smashbroskilla]

Pikachu is top tier imo. in a game where almost every character has a ton of frame startup/ending and Pikachu having little to none makes him a very powerful character. his priority is great and he can keep pressure on the opponent and can easily capitalize on an input error or a missed attack that was meant to trade.

 

[Angiance]

2015 tier list
A Tier
Pikachu

B and lower
The rest

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I just played a few Lucarios and I think he might end up being our hardest match-up.

I'd like to hear your opinion on why.

 

[Soul.]

I'd like to hear your opinion on why.

Most likely because Pikachu is a light character, the fact that Lucario benefits from the rage mechanic and is stronger in higher percents. Not to mention that Pikachu racks up damage in just a few minutes. All Lucario has to do is take hits and KO Pikachu...I guess.
Then again, that's why they say "don't get hit".

 

[dettadeus]

i mean

pikachu is probably the best character in the game at not getting hit lol

once you get lucario to 120 just fish for usmash and avoid getting hit.

 

[Nocally]

2015 tier list
A Tier
Pikachu

B and lower
The rest

Maybe in our dreams

 

[InfiniteTripping]

I think Pikachu is worse than he's ever been in this one. I don't have a lot of details to back this up... everything about him just feels terribly weak. He's fast but his moves are slower and not as powerful. Pikachu was never this powerhouse character but it feels like even basic combos are a struggle to perform. Sometimes I get a poor first impression but I'm like, there's room for this character to grow with practice. Everything about him just feels crappier though.

 

[Tagxy]

Some players who had the game early release seem to have pika in their top 10, which is about where I expected him to be.

I just played a few Lucarios and I think he might end up being our hardest match-up.

why is that? I think ness is going to be a hard MU and villager/yoshi have the potential to be hard. But i wonder what peoples thoughts are on that.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

For me, I think Lucario is definitely annoying for the obvious reason of, he can kill us at like 50% if we make a dumb mistake. I kind of agree with Detta about the fact that its really easy to avoid getting hit most of the time. At high aura, I tend to play really defensive against Lucario until I see an opening I know I can get some good follow ups from. I also tend to stop trying to really damage him around 120% and just try to pressure him until I see mistakes because of Rage/Aura. At low aura where his hitboxes aren't as ridiculous, I'll take a few more risks. But in general, this is one of those matchups where I pitch a tent and bring out the smores. I just wonder how difficult it actually is to close a stock for each side. I'm no expert at this MU by any means so I'd like to hear more.

Ness is definitely a tough one imo. He controls the air so much better than we do. Those hitboxes are tough to challenge directly and his air speed makes it difficult to lock him down. And of course PSI Magnet means you have to be very selective about your T-Jolt usage which is usually one of our aces against people who outrange us/have dumb disjoints.

I also don't enjoy the Yoshi matchup at all. I don't really like any character who has such ridiculous aerial acceleration speed. Makes it really hard to lock someone down. Especially when they have a projectile like Eggs (so stupid now). AND he's kind of fat and has superior range on his aerials. Frustrating MU for me personally.

Unsure about Villager as I haven't played any good ones yet.

 

[Psyant]

So far I feel like Yoshi and Greninja have been the worst opponents for me. Greninja for the reasons already discussed, Yoshi because he is just god damn impossible to kill, has a strong defense game and eggs mean you can't just expect to thunder jolt for free to force him to come to you. Yoshi's approaches aren't that great but he's really strong on the defensive side and it's extremely easy to let him live to stupid %s if you don't pick and choose when to use your unstaled attacks wisely. He hits extremely hard, too. Making even one mistake against him will get you either massively damaged or KO'd.

Lucario is scary because he can get so, so, so strong, and we're so light, meaning an aura boosted back air can potentially kill us at like 50%, but I agree that Pikachu is probably the best at not being hit and this works in our favour. Lucario is stronger than in Brawl but he's also more sluggish. You have no excuse for getting hit by his smash attacks and even his better killing moves like bair are pretty slow to come out and not that long ranged. I agree completely you need to get him to like 120% then just stop damaging him and fish for Up Smash. That's what my natural reaction was to do against him and it's worked well so far.

 

[Pikabunz]

I'd like to hear your opinion on why.

His kill power just becomes ridiculous at high percent and like you said, if we make a mistake we will die at a very low percent. It's really hard to find an opening to punish him with a kill move if he's camping hard with aura spheres and force palm. His kill moves are so much safer than ours too and his aura spheres force us to approach since it beats our jolt spam. Recovering against a high aura Lucario is pretty scary too. I'm not 100% sure about this, but I believe his aura sphere can hit us as we're trying to QA to the ledge even from below the stage. His aura sphere also covers our ledge options very well because of how huge it is. I think the best way to close a stock is to try to grab him and get him in the air. After that, we try to punish his landing with upsmash. But that's a lot easier said than done. Or we can throw him off stage and try to edge guard which is also really hard to do.