Thoughts on pika competitively

[Tagxy]

Hello folks, for those who don't know me my original account was Cassio and Im in the Brawl Back Room for Pikachu. Just thought Id share a few things I thought were important since I finally got to play around with pika a bit. This is going to be mostly as pika relates to Brawl.

Fsmash:
Double edged sword here. In Brawl the tip was pretty bad which was unfortunate since it was the most important part. In smash 4 the tip seems to not be as weak as it was in Brawl (knockback wise) but the sweetspot is also not as strong. Itll be nice as fsmash will become more reliable now that its range becomes more formidable but his powerful fsmash will definitely be missed His usmash appears to have taken a similar hit, more reliable and greater range, and even pikachus extra speed and sliding distance on upsmash are greater and make it easier to land. But its power has fallen. Overall these moves will make killing for pikachu easier to do but also take longer.

Dash Attack:
IMO the most important and significant buff for pikachu attack wise. Dash attack was considered pikachus worst move in almost every smash game, now it becomes one of his best and one of his most important for his style of play. It has kill power, potentially combo power?, and definitely puts opponents in a good position to follow up. What makes this move great is that pikachu FINALLY has a reliable attack to complement his fast dash speed. Before his best approach options approach were dash shield, dash spot dodge, occasionally QA/QAC. His best attack option was usmash or fair, with dash attack being good for hitting and bad for everything else. Now that its useful, dash attack is likely about twice as fast as his previous good attack options. It provides a valuable mix-up on a run in dash that complement shielding and spot dodge. Good range, very fast, likely to shield poke.

Quick Attack:
Verdict is out on this one. QAC will be missed, but having power on the actual hits of his QA will be useful. In essence this makes pikachu less safe if QA misses, but also much more likely to hit than QAC was. QAC was used more for tricky mix-up than direct approaches, so itll be interesting to see if QA can be used for set-ups.

 

[Nocally]

at the moment, I would say that Quick attack is still a viable approach/attack option. You can't do an aerial out of it like in brawl, but the end lag on the ground has decreased significantly. You might be able to use it as a cross up, or if you hit someone, they get hit up in the air for a tech chase.... and up-throw to Thunder is a legit combo if you opponent doesn´t DI. All of this might not be totally legit since I have only tried fighting against the CPU and people online, So take all of this with a grain of salt.

 

[Pikabunz]

You can still QAC on non-flat surfaces, moving platforms and scrolling stages. Stages like Magicant, Yoshi's Island, and Tortimer Island are amazing for Pikachu since he can QAC on almost any part of the stage.

 

[Angiance]

Agreeing with what Nocally said, 'n honestly, QA1 needs more experimenting. Seems like a lot of possibilities are available after using QA1 into the ground, through and behind the opponent

QA1 > SH U-Air > etc.?

 

[Pikabunz]

Just played hours of wifi with Pika. He's not as bad as I thought he would be. I could see him being high tier.

 

[Angiance]

Definitely A tier. The new mechanics really aid Pikachu, plus we've got a potent speed boost; we lost power, but speed is ultimately our greatest asset in any smash game

 

[Tagxy]

I think he'll be a good character in a more balanced game. The important thing is going to be looking for tough MUs. For now we're lucky that olimar and diddy got nerfed and ICs dont exist anymore.

 

[Psyant]

Just played hours of wifi with Pika. He's not as bad as I thought he would be. I could see him being high tier.

I feel the same way after trying him. His KO problems aren't as bad as I thought, Usmash and Fsmash sweetspotted are decently strong, you just have to take care not to stale them and not to expect anything else to kill outside of a gimp. But Pikachu is just so fast and smooth in this game and he can really run circles around a lot of characters in the neutral game. Still an incredible edgeguarder too.

 

[Angiance]

Honestly, it always seemed like Pikachu was more the type to utilize speed to pressure his opponent across the stage into edgeguard position, 'n then gimp, instead of straight KOing

 

[Choice Scarf]

I just have to say I love short hop auto-cancel Fair.

 

[The TaBuu]

I just have to say I love short hop auto-cancel Fair.

Quite honestly, SHFF Fair is amazing. IDK if PIkachu had this same tool in previous iterations (can't really remember atm) but SHFF Fair lets you combo (follow into Utilt), space/pressure the opponent out, (follow into Dtilt) or straight up KO the opponent (follow into Usmash)

 

[Tagxy]

SH autocancel fair was a thing in Brawl and about the same, but not used as much as it shouldve been IMO. You can also fast fall it in the middle if it connects or move away if it doesnt.

@ Pikabunz would know better, but in brawl (forsure in melee) landing fair had few guaranteed follow ups and now it seems like it has a lot.

 

[The TaBuu]

Regarding Pikachu's Fair I thought this video was pretty interesting
https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/F3...p4?versionId=ypF_iDXntCzb9cYheYDBsipHCSLj_20A

 

[Soul.]

So that video shows a falling FAir → Jump → Thunder in a platform. I guess that's going to need some testing...well, it doesn't sound that risky. I mean, Thunder has priority (please correct me if I'm wrong) which could launch the opponent to begin the edgeguard game.

 

[Pikabunz]

Looked legit to me.

 

[The TaBuu]

yeah, from what I could see, the body hit of Fair (probably the weak part of Fair) provides a bit hitstun with low knockback and considering the Thunder comes out frame 1ish, this could very well be an effective combination of moves. if we could pull this off on the ground that'd be amazing too

 

[Psyant]

Using fair as a jab reset is pretty smart. Hadn't thought of it but it makes sense.

 

[Pikabunz]

Here's my Brawl comparison/moveset analysis on Smash 4 Pikachu.

Jab - 2%
Overall it feels the same on speed (fast) and recovery time (slow). The main difference is that it no longer trips, so no more jab to fsmash/usmash. Jab also does less damage at the tip now. You really don't want to use this too much as it's really easy for some characters to punish you even if you hit them with it. It's best used for jab locks or when they're near the ledge.

Ftilt - 10%(up), 9%(neutral), 8%(down)
It's still the same. It's Pikachu's fastest ground move next to jab and does some decent knock back. Angling it up makes it do the most damage and knockback and it serves as a great anti air approach tool

Utilt - 5%
Much weaker than Brawl's as it no longer kills early. It's still great for racking up damage.

Dtilt - 6%
Slightly weaker but still good. This move has good range, fast start-up, and a very fast recovery time. It's an amazing spacing tool and it still trips!

Dash Attack - 10% (strong), 6% (weak)
One of the only moves that got buffed from Brawl. Instead of doing 7% throughout the whole hitbox it now does a strong hit at the start-up which can kill at about 170%+. Ties with ftilt in speed, but has a very slow recovery time.

Fsmash - 18%, 15%, 12%
In Brawl, it did 14% - 21%, getting stronger the closer they were to Pika. Now it does 12%-18% with the strongest hit being in the middle. Even if it's a little weaker, it's still Pikachu's strongest kill move.

Usmash - 14% (front), 12% (up), 8% (back)
This is probably Pikachu's best KO move as it is still decently strong, fast, and can be used out of dash. Not much has changed here.

Dsmash - 13% (all hits)
Much much weaker. This won't kill till close to 200%. The hitbox feels like it doesn't last as long either while still having a long recovery time. I don't like this move too much anymore. RIP dsmash>thunder kills at 60%. At least it's still fast.

Nair - 9% (strong), 6% (weak), 25 frames landing lag
Another good move that got a big nerf in power. Other than that, it's still the same. This is best used OoS or combo'd from uair at low percents.

Uair - 5%, 24 frames landing lag
Has higher knockback at higher percents, but doesn't kill. The higher knockback is what I didn't want though. Now it no longer combos into nair at higher percent. Not like that matter since nair doesn't kill anymore. This is still an amazing move for juggling your opponent.

Dair - 12%, 4% (landing) 40 frames landing lag
It has a bigger hitbox I think and the hitbox doesn't last as long. I need to test this some more. It's still a great move though. Learn to shorthop auto-cancel this.

Bair - 9% (all hits), 4% (landing) 30 frames landing lag
Still the same as a before, but does less damage. It can now drag the opponent down if you fast fall with it.

Fair - 10% (all hits) 15 frames landing lag
Much smaller hitbox as it only covers Pikachu's head instead of his whole body. So you can actually miss with this move if you're too close to your opponent. It's still a good move though. Fastfall with this on hit-confirm to get a free grab. Just like with Bair, you can drag you opponent down with you if you fastfall.

Jolt - 4-6%
Air jolts now do 5% from 9% and ground jolts get weaker the longer they're out instead of always doing 6%. Not much else to say about jolts.

Quick Attack - 2%, 3%
QAC can no longer be done on flat ground, but it seems like there's less landing lag on it now. The 2nd hit now has some knockback which can possibly set-up for a combo. I will say a lot more about this move another time.

Skull Bash - 6%-21%
This move was nerfed in power for some reason. At full charge it will only kill at about 140%, which is weaker than an uncharged usmash. This is still a bad move and really should only be used for recovering. One neat thing I found is that if you smash the input for skull bash, the charge will start at 10% instead of 6%, so you will go a little further and charge slightly faster.

Thunder - 6% cloud, 8% bolt, 15% shockwave
This move probably got the biggest nerf, but it's still useful. Before you were able to kill at 80%-100% if anyone was even near the top of the screen, but now they get spiked down into the shockwave, which doesn't kill till about 140%. The bolt also doesn't last as long so it's harder to edge guard with. One good change is that the thunder comes out on frame 1 which makes this move a nice combo breaker. While this move got some big nerf, it doesn't make it bad. It's just not a broken move anymore.

Pummel - 1%
Used to do 2%. Bleh.

Uthrow - 4%
Used to do 10%, but it now it's easier to combo into thunder.

Fthrow - 10%
RIP chaingrabs. You can combo into dash attack on some characters at low percent. May also set-up for other nice things.

Dthrow - 8%
Used to 10%. RIP chaingrabs. Sets up for uair juggling.

Bthrow - 9%
It's pretty much the same. Use this to get them off stage.

 

[Psyant]

^ One thing, pummel actually does do close to 2%. It shows up as 1% if you do it from 0%, but after that you'll see it goes up in 2s, then it goes up by 1% occasionally. I think it must be something like 1.8% damage. Considering how fast it is now it's pretty good imo.

Looking at the overall nerfs listed out like that is a bit depressing I have to admit. Pikachu still feels pretty good though.

EDIT: Got 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19,20 from testing pummel. If I'm not mistaken that sequence would make the pummel's damage 1.9%.

 

[Pikabunz]

That's not too bad and pummel does seem a bit faster. Did you test that in training mode?

 

[The TaBuu]

Pikachu's Dsmash is actually a really solid move in Smash 4 in my opinion. The nerf to SDI and consequential buff to multi-hit moves has made Dsmash one of Pikachu's stronger damage-racking options (as if he didn't have enough already haha).
Dsmash is a solid option for punishing rolls and spotdodges as it has the range and active frames to punish both options.

Pikachu's Bair has gotten a similar buff and in fact, gimping with Bair is a legitimate option against certain characters. Bair is laggy if it hits the ground though.

Pikachu's Nair is one of his bread and butter moves and it's just so good.

Pikachu's Dair has more lag (?) but it's definitely a great shield pressure move and mix-up option

I have so much more to say but this will do for now~

 

[Psyant]

That's not too bad and pummel does seem a bit faster. Did you test that in training mode?

Yup, training mode.

Pikachu's Dsmash is actually a really solid move in Smash 4 in my opinion. The nerf to SDI and consequential buff to multi-hit moves has made Dsmash one of Pikachu's stronger damage-racking options (as if he didn't have enough already haha).

I do think Dsmash is important for building damage. Most of Pikachu's moves don't do much. To be honest with the non-existent shield stun in this game you can probably punish a lot of things with a down smash after dropping your shield. I already do that with Fsmash, but Dsmash would be better if they're in range as that way you build good damage without staling killing moves.

 

[Pikabunz]

Is anyone here up for Pikachu dittos? Maybe we can learn something from each other.

 

[VirusDigimon]

What's the best option for people on the ledge?

FSmash can't seem to hit when they attack from the ledge. I feel like the only option I have is to back away from the edge entirely or Fair if they jump, which is most people don't do.

 

[Soul.]

What's the best option for people on the ledge?

FSmash can't seem to hit when they attack from the ledge. I feel like the only option I have is to back away from the edge entirely or Fair if they jump, which is most people don't do.

Do a forward throw if FSmash doesn't work. When they're offstage, NAir, FAir, and BAir (if Pikachu's facing the opponent) are the best options.
Also yeah, I agree that DSmash is solid thanks to the Smash DI nerf. Pretty good damage racking move.
DAir is laggy when not autocancelled. Autocancelling this move is a must.

 

[Psyant]

I reaaaally hope customs are allowed in the future. Pikachu's are too much fun.

 

[The TaBuu]

Customs are currently allowed in Tournament Play and I can see them staying legal unless certain customizations are deemed too strong, but that's a talk for the future.

Pikachu's more interesting/useful customs in my opinion are ...

• Neutral Special 2 "Thunder Wave" : Acts very much like ZSS's Paralyzer but in T-jolt form
• Side Special 3 "Heavy Skullbash" : It comes out quickly and it's very powerful. The nerf to recovery in this move is not even a major issue as Pikachu has the tools to be recovering from a lot of places
• Up Special 2 "Meteor Quick Attack" : This one is definitely a contender for usage just because it brings Pikachu's edge game to a whole new level. The only obvious problem here is the nerf to Pikachu's recovery ... and considering his light weight, Pikachu is like kicking around a paper bag
• Down Special 2 "Thunder Burst" : The reason I put this one in is because considering that things such as Dtilt > Jab x3 > Finisher seems legitimate on Pikachu, Thunder Burst would certainly be a great move to have. It has no massive vertical hitbox, can't spike and has a huge cooldown time. However, it has a sizable horizontal hitbox, has multiple hitboxes and has great KO potential

 

[Choice Scarf]

I like Pika's customs, they give great benefits and new utilities but have reasonable weaknesses to balance them out, so they still feel fair. I hope they stay legal, I like the idea of having custom move counterpicks since its a whole new dimension to the game. Plus Pika's kill power is much more accessible this way.

 

[Psyant]

So I figured out the weird thing going on with Heavy Skull Bash, more or less. The thing where you fly from one side of the screen to the other when you use it sometimes.

Basically, it's actually nothing to do with being off-screen. The way it actually works just makes that the most common place you'd see it happening.

For some reason, if Pikachu uses Heavy Skull Bash immediately after exiting hitstun, Pikachu will rocket in the chosen direction with roughly the same amount of force as the knockback he just sustained from the opponent's attack. Your opponent just hit you with a bair to edgeguard, and you Side B as soon as possible? You'll shoot back the other way with about the same force as the bair hit you with. If you get launched from one side of the screen to the other with a forward smash, and Side B back, you'll take that forward smash's force and rocket back in the other direction with it. Basically, the harder you get hit, the stronger Heavy Skull Bash's momentum will be, which effectively allows Pikachu to always return to center stage after being hit away. With this as a recovery tool, you don't even need a double jump or Up B to make it back to the stage.

This doesn't just go for horizontal knockback, either. Fox just up smashed you, and nearly killed you? You can take that vertical knockback and use it to power Heavy Skull Bash's horizontal momentum (although you'll probably just kill yourself doing so). This seems particularly good for escaping followups off an up-throw, as you can get a boosted Side B off their up-throw's knockback too, and escape to the side to prevent aerial followups.

If you want to try this out yourself, an easy way is to hit yourself with bombs in training mode and then Side B as soon as you can. You'll see that as your % rises and you take more knockback from the explosions, your Side B gains a bigger boost.

It definitely seems like a glitch to me. A crazy useful one for Pikachu that makes him truly almost impossible to edgeguard. Not sure if it'll be allowed or not at this point.

I was messing around with some other custom specials last night and found one of the overlooked ones to be very promising, so I'll be writing up a bit on that later. I still need more time to go through them all and figure everything out though.

 

[SnorlaxPie500]

Is anyone here up for Pikachu dittos? Maybe we can learn something from each other.

Yepp

 

[Pikabunz]

So here's a chart with the launch speeds of most of Pikachu's moves. These were all done on Mario at 100%, 150%, and 200%. A launch speed of about 135 can kill from the center of FD horizontally with no DI. A launch speed of about 130 can kill on FD vertically with no DI. Also, this was done with Pikachu at 0%. "Rage" can increase launch speeds by up to 15% when Pikachu is at 150% or more.

| Damage | 100% | 150% | 200%
Forward Smash (Mid) | 18% | 130 | 165 | 212
Forward Smash (Close) | 15% | 99 | 124 | 150
Forward Smash (Tip) | 12% | 110 | 143 | 175
Up Smash (Close) | 14% | 118 | 151 | 184
Up Smash (Tip) | 13% | 113 | 144 | 175
Down Smash | 13% | 107 | 129 | 151
Forward Tilt | 9% | 76 | 102 | 127
Forward Tilt (Up) | 10% | 82 | 110 | 138
Forward Tilt (Down) | 8% | 71 | 94 | 117
Up Tilt | 5% | 84 | 103 | 123
Dash Attack | 10% | 111 | 136 | 161
Up Throw | 4% | 84 | 102 | 119
Down Throw | 8% | 85 | 102 | 118
Back Throw | 9% | 88 | 101 | 114
Neutral Air | 8% | 86 | 111 | 137
Forward Air | 10% | 88 | 105 | 122
Down Air | 12% | 84 | 111 | 138
Back Air | 9% | 92 | 112 | 133
Thunder | 15% | 108 | 133 | 157
Skull Bash (Full Charge) | 22% | 112 | 145 | 177

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Hey Tagxy(you're also aka The Truth! aren't ya?) glad to see you're still around

I have been dabbling with pikachu since launch and I have a few things I'd like to share. Probably repeats of information already listed but what the who. I do have a couple of things Im not sure on..maybe by putting it out there you guys can help me debuff myths and/or confirm some things. The following info dump is mostly my feelings, speculation, and shouldnt necessarily be taken as solid fact. XP

Pikachu's moveset impressions from what I have seen thus far:

-Dtilt- Still trips! I was surprised this is still in game but thats a huge boon for our opponents. I also -think- it combos into itself? I am not totally sure. Fast normal I love it

-Utilt- I can combo this into itself on a vast majority of the cast up to 6 on fox. I love this move.

-Ftilt- Can kill sometimes? Feels a bit slower?

-Jab- Pikachus jab is one of the only jabs in the game(cept bowser jr.) that does not have a finisher at the end...isnt that interesting? To explain, like fox has his jabs from brawl but then combos into a finisher kick. Pikachus doesnt do that. You can OTG(off the ground) and jab juggle them for damage like in brawl(aka jab infinite) but max hits i got was 3 jabs before the opponent stood up

-Fsmash- I am going to have to agree with Tagxy in his original post. It feel very slightly faster..but overall what he said pretty much how i feel about this move

-Usmash- Feels better! Different animation, has a hitbox behind him that bounces the opponent up slighty. Feels better then brawls version.

-Dsmash- Feels like its got 5-7 more frames of ending lag, but its hit boxes feel crunchy and satifying to hit with. A move i feel our opponents need to still respect if they get behind us.

-Grab- I feel pikachus grab is around 3 frames? It feels faster, has different animation then brawls. In general his throws pretty much the same from brawls version and work how they were then. Obviously the 1 second grab ban prevents chain throws off of fthrow(yeah i tried to do it lol)

-Dash Attack- This one got really interesting..while i agree with Tagxy on his original post in almost every thing he said-- I believe this move is for the most part unsafe if just used without thought behind it. It feels like its got a little bit more ending lag in it. But! I believe that if used in a combo where you can force an OTG where you can connect the dash attack...this move would be an excellent kill move.

-Uair- Pretty much retains its usefulness from brawl in every asset. Also feels disjointed.

-Nair- Feels the same and the hitbox works similar to brawls verison. It's my move of choice when killing in the air. Also has a disjointed hitbox(try swatting gordos with it).

-Dair- Also a kill move plus an AA option from above against most opponents that dont have a uair with good reach.

-Bair- Feels like brawls counter part, a good move to utilt combo out of and to trap people air dodging.

-Fair- This move got interesting..it has a hitbox with a spike on if when you fast fall. I'm not completely certain on how it works but I got it to occur in an online match a couple of times. Works similar to how Metaknights FF fair works for his 40% combo(theres on a video of it on Youtube). It has much better hitstun at the end of the move. Still great move to combo with.

-Thunder- This move got changed abit. Its reach was lessened by about 9-20%? What I mean is the cloud and the reach of thunder do not go nearly as high as brawls version. The bolt itself feels like it has narrower hitboxes-- closer to the visual effect. Those hitboxes still send the opponent up . Sweetspot for the spike is in the cloud, and thunder 2 is still good for walling folks out. The hitbox that appears when thunder strikes pikachu can still kill. I feel that the hitboxes during this portion of thunder have a little less range versus brawl.

-Thunder Jolt- Still just as good as brawls counter part. Thunder wave, his alternate special move is gonna be awesome for comboing into if kept tourney legal.

-Skull Bash- The visuals on this move changed abit...the alter special move(less charge = more damage one) sounds like it'd be a better alternative to the original. Original skull bash feels pretty much the same.

-Quick Attack- Can't QAC, but you can still travel with it. Feels the same as brawls counter part. I have yet to dabble with the meteor effect special move alternate you can use. :D

 

[Tagxy]

So Ive been hearing many of the non-heavy characters had their damage output reduced in smash 4. I feel like this must tie in with kill power somehow.

 

[Angiance]

Well yeah, now we can't KO *anything*

 

[Dark 3nergy]

So Ive been hearing many of the non-heavy characters had their damage output reduced in smash 4. I feel like this must tie in with kill power somehow.

I suspect they did this due to the rage mechanic. I also kinda agree with angiance, but i think landing a kill move is something veteran brawl players can work around.

 

[Nocally]

It basically means that we have to rack up a lot of damage to get the kill, get up to rage effect to get a semi early kill, or some kind of gimping/off-stage kill. Being patient and go for the opportunities is the way to go.

 

[Tagxy]

One thing I was thinking of lately.

So if I grab the ledge after someone grabs the ledge they fall off after awhile and I can punish them almost right after. However Ive also heard they can:
1) buffer another get up option. (can someone test this)
so I was thinking since pikachu gets off the ledge quicker than others, is it possible to
2)grab the ledge after them, then also get off the ledge before them so you can be ready to punish them? (also please test)

so far Ive already tested grabbing the ledge right after the opponent to see if pika gets knocked off first anyways since pikas forced ledge time is shorter but the opponent is still knocked off first. I think this could end up being really helpful for pika if done correctly.

@ Pikabunz @Leaf.

 

[Pikabunz]

We can nair or bair them.

 

[Psyant]

Heavy Skull Bash helps a TON in the killing department. It can kill from a jab reset (partly charged) or even as a surprise out of shield option (non-charged) at higher %s. I really think it helps Pikachu's killing issues a lot. Thunder Wave, the stunning Thunder Jolt, also helps you kill by allowing you to confirm it into a quick up smash or Heavy Skull Bash. Of course, you lose Thunder Jolt's damage racking at long range, but I think Thunder Wave might be worth taking against characters you know you'll likely have to directly kill rather than edgeguard (Pit, Villager, other characters with insane recovery).

Quick Feet, the third Quick Attack variant, also has insane hitstun once it begins to knock people off their feet (at about 60%), and as it sends them at a low angle horizontally if you do it diagonally down at them from the air, it can confirm into an up smash quite often if you get them to fall in the same direction as you travelled (still working on that). It's a hard move to use reliably but can definitely lead to some kill setups.

Basically customs help Pikachu kill. A lot. And overall attribute more to him than many other character's customs do. It's definitely in our best interests to push for them to be legal.

@ Tagxy Really good point on Pikachu's small forced edgehang time. That'll be really good if grabbing the ledge right after someone to force them off it does become common place. I haven't really practised it but I find it difficult to time right now, although quick attack is good for getting you to the ledge just after they do.

 

[M15t3R E]

Thoughts on Pikachu's alternate Down+B's?
I LOVE the thought of Thunder regaining the distance that it had in Brawl so I want to love Distant Thunder. Unfortunately, it seems entirely too slow. Anyone have success with this move?
I've actually been using Thunder Burst. With it, I have gotten countless horizontal kills with Down+B due to how fast Thunder Burst comes out.
As for the others, I think everyone is praising Thunder Wave as the best neutral B option, Heavy Skull Bash as the best side B option, and it seems to be a toss-up between Quick Feet and Meteor Quick Attack.