Thoughts on pika competitively

[Psyant]

Heavy Skull Bash without a doubt. It's a massive straight upgrade in every way with no relevant downsides.

Thunder Jolt or Wave depends on the MU imo. As I said, I think wave would be worth it against characters you know you'll likely have to land a smash attack on to kill, rather than reliably edgeguard.

Quick Feet should almost always be taken imo. In terms of distance it is the same as the normal Quick Attack, but easier to use. It's on stage use for setting up combos from it's massive hitstun, as well as tech chasing from across the stage and general movement, are amazing. The only downside to it is without two angles you could die from being a bit under the stage where the normal Quick Attack would save you, but it's not that big a deal. In customs, you will actually rarely be using your Up B or even your double jump to recover due to Heavy Skull Bash's momentum glitch making recovery completely free. Assuming it doesn't get banned or fixed, anyway. You'd only really recover the normal way as a mix-up.

Meteor quick attack seems bad to me. It's significantly slower on startup than normal Quick Attack and travels significantly less distance than Quick Attack or Quick Feet. Add on to that how hard it is to use and it's just not worth it, imo.

Similar to you M15t3R E I've had some success with Thunder Burst but none with Distant Thunder. Jumping off the stage and activating Thunder Burst can often catch people and seems to be a somewhat viable edgeguard, but the end lag is scary as it's very easy to SD with it. On stage it's use is more questionable, but I think the move has some potential even though I prefer regular thunder overall.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Where Thunder itself was nerfed this game, I wouldn't take Distant Thunder. I like that it restores distance and all, but it doesn't move quickly, and the cloud having the spike helps out the fact that normal Thunder's distance was shortened, letting you combo with it.

I can see Thunder Burst's uses but haven't tested it enough myself.

 

[The TaBuu]

Agree of disagree :
Pikachu has a tough time against Rosalina & Luma, Palutena, Link and King Dedede

 

[hell-dew]

D3 is really really free lol. get in on him juggle him for days that matchup is rather silly he can zone well and the decent d3s i fought gave me a bit more trouble but the edge pressure we give him is silly and we murder him up close and jolt decimates his gordo game shooting them right back in his face. we camp him and we have mobility to do what we want to do with him.

Link is trash still just combo him juggle him abuse the fact his grab still sucks hard his air game/hits hurt but i dont think link is remotely bad.

Rosa luma you need to learn how to kill luma i think she is insanely hard. learning the proprieties of luma that luma in hit stun only exits hit stun when it hits land is useful. RAR upair into nairs off stage makes killing luma pretty free. obviously she comes back stupidly fast and rosa can dodge crap for days but luma makes that MU unbearably hard.

Paulatena im not understanding ive fought a really good one and still beat him pretty solidly she has good tools but just go in on her.

for Fair the first and seemingly thrid hit boxes are the spike if people are wondering last hit also has really good knock back and its also far more disjointed making pikachu actually have the ability to deal with a lot of stupid MUs (sonic being a big one and IMO i think pika bodies sonic now if you learn the mU properly.)

Bair also was buffed in this game. Not SDIable means Bair can suck people down which people have been saying but the last hit of bair always knocks back now even if its cut short by landing meaning you NEVER get punished for hitting with it any more thankfully.

Nair also seams to linger longer then before being really hella stupid for gimping.

Fsmash becomes even more godlike for punishing landings cause landings suck more then brawl`s hyrule tier.

Quick attack has a lot less lag if shot into the ground and the pop up effect is insanely silly for stringing upairs and dash attack is also mad swag for landing/end of platform/ledges for knock ups.

upair is a free kill move if the enemies % gets to high as is upthrow and upthrow kills at pretty ok %s on battlefield platforms lol and isnt something people seam to expect to vector for a lot plus its fast.


Fthrow dash attack seams to work pretty well at early %s i dont know if this is a DI thing though

 

[Nocally]

The Rosalina match up is a tough one for a lot of characters, it is really hard to get in on a good Rosalina. The easiest way for me to defeat her is to mind game er dizzy using short hops, shield and of course the mighty quick attack to punish some of her attacks, especially if Luma is not beside her.

 

[The TaBuu]

In all fairness, Link has a solid air game that can easily "box out" Pikachu and with all his projectiles + sword, approaching a Link can be a daunting task

 

[Angiance]

Link 2 fat 4 pika

 

[frownifdown]

I just have to say I love short hop auto-cancel Fair.

Could you explain what you mean by that? I know short hop and Fair, but what is auto cancel?

 

[The TaBuu]

means the Fair has no landing lag. So you can Short hop fast fall the fair and link it into a lot of other different moves. For example SHFF Fair > Usmash is a great KO setup
Careful though, autocancel doesn't always mean safe. A shielding opponent can easily shield grab your SHFF Fair despite the autocancel nature of the move

 

[frownifdown]

means the Fair has no landing lag. So you can Short hop fast fall the fair and link it into a lot of other different moves. For example SHFF Fair > Usmash is a great KO setup
Careful though, autocancel doesn't always mean safe. A shielding opponent can easily shield grab your SHFF Fair despite the autocancel nature of the move

Ah, thanks. It's so hard to learn all of the lingo and implement it, even though I've been playing smash since 64.

 

[The TaBuu]

smash lingo isn't the hardest thing to pick up. looks bad but it's very easy to learn.
words like autocancel, pivot, short hop and fast fall are some basics that are self-explanatory really

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Just posting my thoughts here:

I started playing around with Pikachu in the demo, and I ended up playing him ore once the game was released. Pikachu actually plays the way I want him to. I liked him in Brawl but didn't like the fact that getting the grab was so key to his game and the fact that QA felt more like a mix-up than an approach option. I really dig how the new mechanics allow for combos/setups off T-Jolts and how QA has more knockback and sets up for follow ups. Feels more like the speedster I've come to know and love. I actually had no intention of playing Pika in this game but he's one of two characters like now that feels good to play and makes sense to me. I also feel like although there are some tough matchups, I also feel like Pikachu doesn't get straight shut down by anyone (although its still super early).

Overall, I've been having a blast playing him and I'm looking forward to using him in tournament. Some of his tools got re-worked but it adds some interesting new dimensions to Pikachu that I don't think he had before. He just feels like he has a lot of freedom but in a balanced way. He can camp, he go in, he can pressure and harass off stage..he just has a lot going for him I think.

 

[hell-dew]

heavy skull bash is lulz if you read a roll holy crap that is an insane custom. also how do people deal with peach i never understood her in brawl and i get her less in this game

 

[Tagxy]

If any of you are friends with ESAM on facebook, he uses bair to do some pretty cool gimps. It looks like even trading hits with it is helpful. Maybe @[FBC] ESAM has some thoughts or can provide other footage.

Also with customs itd be a hard call on jolt imo. Normal jolt is also great for edgeguarding and guiding how the opponent reaches the stage and thunder wave wouldnt be as good. But its probably better at outright killing.

Still a fan of normal QA the most, though the others could have uses sometimes. Heavy skull bash seems the best. And thunder Im not sure about.

 

[VirusDigimon]

Quick Feet has a longer hitstun? This might definitely be the best option. You can also go really deep with Bairs also.
I'm finding Meteor QA to be incredibly difficult to control, but I don't think it should be put off just yet. A meteor-capable Pika sounds scary, but that depends on how easy/reliable it hits.

I think that Thunder Shock and Shocking Skull Bash might be worth a try too. From all the custom moves that I've tried across many characters, I think regular Skull Bash is the only move that practically offers no benefits in comparison to the other two moves.
Thunder Shock could change your playstyle entirely, requiring you to have more intimate spacing and could be used out of stage. The damage is also nice.

 

[Angiance]

T-Shock needs to be experimented on, the move holds potential

 

[LunarWingCloud]

I'm starting to like Quick Attack's small tradeoff this game. Admittedly I never mastered QACing yet and the ability to give some good knockback off a QA is nice. You can actually use it both for defense and offense and Pika is a character who I feel really benefits from the option to be flexible with various moves

 

[Psyant]

Quick Feet has a longer hitstun?

It's really good if you can get them to fall in the same direction you went past them. Once it begins to knock people off their feet, they fly low to the ground horizontally with a LOT of hitstun. If you zip past them and they fly the same way when hit (not sure what causes the direction they fall right now), they basically fall into your arms and you can get a lot of free followups, even an up smash if you're fortunate.

 

[hell-dew]

im finding it hard to like the other quick attacks when regular quick attack is already stupid good. the juggles it provides the mix ups the ability to safely land the distance the recovery choices the ability to go super deep with it doesn't feel like something i would be willing to give up. QA2 feels much more offensive while sacrificing to much defensive capability the slowness makes it far easier to react to and it losses a lot of its mix up potential.
|
QA3 im just not a fan of. IMO one of the best things about quick attack is the ability to angle it i dont like losing that although il test it with other moves and check out various properties of it and see if i can find a better use for it.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

So I spent hours playing a good Rosaluma yesterday and learned a lot about the MU. We basically went even, trading games last hit almost all of the time. Basically I learned:

Bair is godlike for splitting up Luma and Rosa when Luma is within her range.

Remember not to get too greedy with your strings/approaches when Luma is closeby even if you're landed the first hit. You'll have to do a lot of resetting in this matchup. Basically it's a series of baiting/punishing scenarios.

Don't be afraid to T-Jolt your ass off. If Luma soaks them up, cool. When you do go in and get that solid hit on Luma that means you'll just end up knocking it away. You don't really need to do too much damage to it since when you knock it off stage, it just falls. And not really a big deal if Rosa Gravitates your T-Jolts. You can still bait her/punish her for it.

Precise Quick Attack usage is absolutely essential in this matchup. If you're not very confident in your ability to stop it exactly where you need to, go practice it. Rosa's Down Smash is really good for punishing you improper QA's.

Learning to use Luma to extend your hitboxes when they're both really close, can net you some surprise kills. I started using smashes on Luma to punish rolls/spotdodges and the hitboxes were extended enough to hit Rosa when she came out of invincibility. Only do so when confident in your reads.

This feels a lot like playing against ICs in Brawl. Really tough, exciting but mentally draining matchup.

 

[M15t3R E]

So I spent hours playing a good Rosaluma yesterday and learned a lot about the MU. We basically went even, trading games last hit almost all of the time. Basically I learned:

Bair is godlike for splitting up Luma and Rosa when Luma is within her range.

Remember not to get too greedy with your strings/approaches when Luma is closeby even if you're landed the first hit. You'll have to do a lot of resetting in this matchup. Basically it's a series of baiting/punishing scenarios.

Don't be afraid to T-Jolt your *** off. If Luma soaks them up, cool. When you do go in and get that solid hit on Luma that means you'll just end up knocking it away. You don't really need to do too much damage to it since when you knock it off stage, it just falls. And not really a big deal if Rosa Gravitates your T-Jolts. You can still bait her/punish her for it.

Precise Quick Attack usage is absolutely essential in this matchup. If you're not very confident in your ability to stop it exactly where you need to, go practice it. Rosa's Down Smash is really good for punishing you improper QA's.

Learning to use Luma to extend your hitboxes when they're both really close, can net you some surprise kills. I started using smashes on Luma to punish rolls/spotdodges and the hitboxes were extended enough to hit Rosa when she came out of invincibility. Only do so when confident in your reads.

This feels a lot like playing against ICs in Brawl. Really tough, exciting but mentally draining matchup.

Good job. This is probably my least favorite MU with Pikachu.

 

[The TaBuu]

One of the biggest turn offs for me was that Pikachu didn't possess too many safe options on shield mainly because he lacked disjointed hitboxes on a lot of moves. He gets punished easily for not respecting shield yet its hard for him to really fight back against opponents applying a lot of offensive pressure. Was I just playing him wrong in the matchups?

 

[Psyant]

Has anyone else has had trouble with Greninja, or have some advice for the MU? For some reason I really struggle against that character when playing Pikachu. Not sure if it's a playstyle problem with me or if Greninja is just hard for Pika. However, I do much better against the frog if I swap to one of my alts, so I usually do so.

I think I'm having problems because he's fast like us, but has an edge in range. Also his Up B water is one of the only things that actually stances a chance at gimping Quick Attack. Been killed by that a few times.

 

[The TaBuu]

Has anyone else has had trouble with Greninja, or have some advice for the MU? For some reason I really struggle against that character when playing Pikachu. Not sure if it's a playstyle problem with me or if Greninja is just hard for Pika. However, I do much better against the frog if I swap to one of my alts, so I usually do so.

I think I'm having problems because he's fast like us, but has an edge in range. Also his Up B water is one of the only things that actually stances a chance at gimping Quick Attack. Been killed by that a few times.

Utilt strings are legit on the frog, so use that to your advantage. Box him out with Dtilt for ground approaches and smack him out of the air with any lazy/hasty aerial approaches by using an up-angled Ftilt. Tjolts are yet another great tool to either force the frog to slow down in his advance or to approach you. Learn to punish Greninja's Shadow Sneak and Substitute as they are pretty unsafe on shield. I can't even tell you how many running Up-Smash OoS KOs I grabbed against Greninja players who used Shadow Sneak too freely

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

One of the biggest turn offs for me was that Pikachu didn't possess too many safe options on shield mainly because he lacked disjointed hitboxes on a lot of moves. He gets punished easily for not respecting shield yet its hard for him to really fight back against opponents applying a lot of offensive pressure. Was I just playing him wrong in the matchups?

Fast-falling Nairs on Shields can still net you Grab afterwards. Nair cross-ups are nice. Rising FH Bairs are really wonky and can poke people (at least taller characters) . Between those and lots of educated QA usage, I've been able to get around the shield issue. Pikachu's fighting style concept is really weird to be honest. He's a really fast, highly mobile character that can poke and harass from long distance, and still manage to be a threat in mid and close range as well. The reason people have had so much trouble playing him at high levels since Brawl is because of what you mentioned: lack disjoints couple with small range. Basically in this game, you do a LOT of poking, baiting, harassing and the like. And then when you do have your opening, you go IN. Pikachu does have issues against direct pressure against characters who can outrange him/have dumb disjoints. But Pikachu is excellent at escaping bad situations and returning to neutral. This is going to be key here for Smash 4 Pikachus. You poke, you analyze, you find your opening and you make your move. If it doesn't work out, reset and try it from a different angle. When it does you, go in and keep up the pressure. Pikachu's strings lead to follow ups, that with proper reads, allow us to keep it going. Pikachu is REALLY good at pressuring himself.

I think QA is a large part of the reason why I believe Pikachu is a very capable character. It helps offset his lack of range. The only other major issue is landing the killing blow. And honestly, coming from Brawl, I don't really care that much. Its difficult to kill in this game in general against safe play but we do have the tools. The only real difference is that the successful Pikachu player now needs to be better at reading than before.

I think there's always going to be a solid community of Pikachus but I think there's only going to be a few really good ones. Pikachu requires this balance of precision and creativity that most players simply can't consistently execute at a high level. I'm hoping to be one of those Pikachus though. I just really love how he plays. Ever since the demo, he had my attention.

 

[The TaBuu]

This is going to be key here for Smash 4 Pikachus. You poke, you analyze, you find your opening and you make your move. If it doesn't work out, reset and try it from a different angle. When it does you, go in and keep up the pressure. Pikachu's strings lead to follow ups, that with proper reads, allow us to keep it going. Pikachu is REALLY good at pressuring himself.

I love characters that have a dominant neutral game and can play some strong 'footsies' games with their tilts and jabs. I think that just fits how I tend to play. Passive aggressive. Pikachu just felt so right but there was a point where I just couldn't win with Pikachu and so I put him down for a while. But I'm more than ready to pick him now so let's go haha

In terms of KOing, I've never really viewed Pikachu in Smash 4 as a character that has problems KOing. He doesn't always KO at like 120% consistently but he has all the tools. And honestly, the way I play Pikachu (footsies heavy), I can sit there and rack damage and not worry too much. His fresh Up Smash is great and especially since you do it out of a run. Nair'ing the opponent off stage is also pretty effective as well

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Pikachu's playstyle is a different take on what I am accustomed to. I play bait and punish characters that tend to be slower but punish much harder. So reads and baits has always been my strong suits. Taking that kind of playstyle and then translating it to a character that has a much stronger neutral game has been really nice for me.

On a side note: I notice in close range even if you do hit their shield, you can still bait them in out close quarters. Sometimes if I know my opponent has a shield-grab habit, I'll throw out a quick F-Tilt or before they can respond. Luckily, all of our tilts are fast and Jab actually does a good job of stuffing close quarter retaliation. I miss Brawl jab though...them trips. lol

And yeah one of Pikachu's biggest selling points to me is his off-stage chasing game. Sooooo much freedom!

 

[The TaBuu]

I'm still a noob at Smash so I rely more on conditioning with Pikachu and maintaining center stage / strong neutral and footsies game. On that note, I'd really like to improve my reading skills haha

Yeah our moves are so fast it's pretty funny. And honestly our mix-up game is a little disgusting~

Pikachu's off stage game demands that respect!

 

[doom dragon 105]

How do we feel about Nair? I have mixed feelings outside of a "get off me" move

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Nair:

Great OoS option.

Good combo finisher.

Can lead into another Nair or other follow ups after U Tilt strings.

Lingering hitbox makes it a solid off stage gimp/KO tool.

I miss the Brawl version but it's still nice.

 

[Angiance]

Offstage: Air Hop N-Air and Falling Soft N-Air are essentially a wall against your opponent

Soft N-Air (falling) > Air Hop N-Air (if they're in front)/ Air Hop U-Air > N-Air (if they're behind)

You can Short Hop backwards offstage and land Soft N-Air (falling) to Air Hop U-Air > N-Air them to the blastzone

Onstage: You can SH N-Air someone's shield as long as you retreat after it hits, or cross over them

Short Hop N-Air > D-Tilt/SH U-Air is a pretty good attack flow

You can use Soft N-Air from a Short Hop to try and catch dodges, or the startup of your opponent's attack, and combo from it (maybe)

 

[Tagxy]

Im fairly certain Nair has a better hitbox now than it did in Brawl. Before the hitbox was tied tight to his body, now it includes his tail. Certainly WAY better than melee.

Also fair and bair seem to have a spike hitbox in some way, it might only be if its interrupted though.

 

[The TaBuu]

I'm not sure if this was possible before and I have to try it again sometime soon, but I've forced trips on CPUs with Pikachu's Nair. Wonky hitbox property?

 

[Angiance]

There are a lot of hitboxes that can actually trip on occasion, but N-Air causes knockdown at a certain percent anyways, so it's good to follow-up on regardless

 

[doom dragon 105]

Off of the dtilt trip and jab reset. Do you have enough time to fsmash cleanly?

 

[Psyant]

Off of the dtilt trip and jab reset. Do you have enough time to fsmash cleanly?

Yes! Also, you get to jab them three times before they stand up, which allows you to space yourself perfectly for the sweetspot of Fsmash.

Dtilt starts to knock down at about 85% on most of the cast, and if you get a jab reset and partly charged sweetspot Fsmash off of it I can assure you it's almost always a KO.

 

[The TaBuu]

So here's the Japanese "tier list" (more of an "initial impression" list to be honest) for Smash 4 3DS
The Smash 4 metagame is still very new and therefore change to the current list is guaranteed to happen. As of right now, Pikachu is in D-tier, meaning that Pikachu lacks many positive match-ups against the roster and lacks the tools to compete at high-level play. Obviously I refuse to believe this and I thought it'd be best to compile some thoughts on Pikachu's positive assets in competitive play.
Some questions to consider : How does Pikachu perform in the neutral/advantage state? Does Pikachu have the tools to escape disadvantage state? Does Pikachu have match-ups that are too difficult? What match-ups are in Pikachu's favor? Does Pikachu benefit from the current game mechanics? What's your overall impression of Pikachu in this iteration of Smash Brothers?

 

[Psyant]

Japan thought Pika was bad in Brawl, too. They also think Fox is good because they have no Brawl Pikachu players to 0-death him off a grab. Any tier lists right now are silly anyway, regardless of where they come from.

That said, I think it may be harder for Pika in this game than any previous. Just my feeling so far. He just does really low damage per hit and struggles to kill at decent %s. Edgeguarding is also quite hard and downright borderline impossible against some characters, though Pikachu can still gimp most of the cast successfully with good timing and accuracy.

I feel Pikachu's neutral game is very strong, possibly one of the best in the game. He seems harder to hit than ever and a little faster than he was in Brawl. The down side of course being you have to win the neutral game more times than your opponent to keep things equal, given Pikachu's low damage output, low kill potential and fragile weight.

I think Pikachu benefits from the game's mechanics; he's one of the characters that can combo well in a game where a lot of characters often come up just short of having enough hitstun to string many moves together. Pikachu probably has one of the best combo games in this game; it's just that the main moves that are used in these combos, Up Tilt and Up Air, only do 5% each, which really hurts Pikachu's damage racking potential.

I believe Pikachu is a very balanced character match-up wise. Nobody truly demolishes him, but he doesn't steam-roll many characters either. It tends to come more down to player skill, though Pikachu has to put in more effort than most characters.

My overall impression is that he will probably be mid tier without customs, but could be high tier with them. Many of Pikachu's custom special attacks help solve his kill problems and overall strengthen his character.

The main misgiving I am having is that there are characters that have similar strengths to Pikachu but I feel are also better in other areas that Pikachu lacks in, such as Sheik and Zero Suit Samus.

 

[Choice Scarf]

Pikachu seems to be cursed in the "greater work for less reward" tier huh? I hate that this may continue the whole "too much effort -> noob unfriendly -> low popularity" thing.

It's weird that I'm thinking this, but Japan putting Pika as low tier makes me think that they are at a lower caliber or dedication level than I thought they were, which makes zero sense. Pika's quick moves and nature of those moves means he has tools particularly suited for people that excel at technical precision and reactionary tactics, which I thought were traits of expert players. Maybe they're viewing the whole "not worth the effort" thing a major disadvantage? I wonder what their logic is...

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

For anyone who hasn't really played around with this yet. Thunder goes through the stage now and I'm sure you know that. But you can go DEEP AND still recovery easily thanks to how awesome Quick Attack is. When I say "DEEP", I'm referring angles like this:

Works on pretty much all stages that don't have walls off the ledges like Living Room and others. You can get surprise the hell out of people like this when they think they've got you in a bad spot and wanna try to edgeguard you. Its quite amusing stuff. You can literally be right at the blast zone and still get back after Thunder has struck you.

EDIT: Its like I said before. Pikachu has the tools, and I really don't feel like he particularly gets destroyed in any matchup or destroys anyone (Brawl CGs, you will be missed). But Pikachu requires this rare combination of high technical proficiency coupled with vast creativity to take advantage of it all in full. Pikachu at a high level is going to be rare because there are other speedy combo characters that kill better than Pikachu. Pikachu differs because compared to those characters, his KO power is basically traded for maximum flexibility with movements that make for a very expansive mix-up game. I could agree that he feels mid ish tier. Possibly high mid tier. Personally the concept of such a character sounds REALLY exiciting to me!