Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[DrShankums]

Im sure its been discussed before, but since were talking about abusing the activation of an art i think it's a good idea to bring up b-reversing. I've been utilizing b-reversing the activation as a mix up option, and it's been very successful so far, not just online but in locals too. I can't tell you how many times I've had people say "I didn't realize you were facing that way." I'll do a mini write up about possible applications (unless it has already been done), I don't claim to be an expert but have the ability to change direction midair without my opponent knowing which way I'll be facing gives me nice options. You can even change your momentum midair with proper timing.

 

[Zatchiel]

If you guys notice, every time we discuss the match up or any match up with anyone. We ALWAYS have these "how to deal with this guy with this art."

It's like we're really going with this 5-character mentality we have. What if we just use an art depending on the situation that's happening instead of just treating each art as if they were Shulk clones?

I'm not one of the people that asks about this, but I can see where they are coming from. That said I do think you're oversimplifying it.

Rule of thumb: You must have breathing room to switch arts. Against any competent player you're rarely going to get breathing room unless you make it yourself. What players seem to be asking is "how do I give myself breathing room with X art against Y character," which I think is valid.

Shulk + different properties = still Shulk, with different properties. I can understand people struggling to deal with the fact that Shulk is still Shulk no matter what art you have equipped.

Im sure its been discussed before, but since were talking about abusing the activation of an art i think it's a good idea to bring up b-reversing. I've been utilizing b-reversing the activation as a mix up option, and it's been very successful so far, not just online but in locals too. I can't tell you how many times I've had people say "I didn't realize you were facing that way." I'll do a mini write up about possible applications (unless it has already been done), I don't claim to be an expert but have the ability to change direction midair without my opponent knowing which way I'll be facing gives me nice options. You can even change your momentum midair with proper timing.

Neat. I've been messing around with this too. It's pretty fun catching unsuspecting opponents with a f-air instead of the b-air they were anticipating. F-air's surprising vertical range actually works great with this.

I for one look forward to your entry.

I don't really have anything to report. You guys are awesome for keeping the thread going with these ideas.

 

[Berserker.]

I really hate how I still don't have the Wii U version of this game :|

Anyone here willing to do some research on ledge trump > air slash KO percentages (especially in smash art)? Sorry if I sound like I'm demanding it but if anything, I'm just asking if anyone's as curious as I am with this. I would ask @ Neo Zero (sorry for the tag again :<) but if anyone can also help (in case if he doesn't feel like it which is fine by all means ), then that would be the highest level of amazing.

 

[Masonomace]

I really hate how I still don't have the Wii U version of this game :|

Anyone here willing to do some research on ledge trump > air slash KO percentages (especially in smash art)? Sorry if I sound like I'm demanding it but if anything, I'm just asking if anyone's as curious as I am with this. I would ask @ Neo Zero (sorry for the tag again :<) but if anyone can also help (in case if he doesn't feel like it which is fine by all means ), then that would be the highest level of amazing.

I could try, but I'm still doing those Smash & Vanilla KO percentages with Vanilla Shulk at 100% with Rage included . I'll be doing Decisive Smash & Hyper Smash KOs as well.

 

[Neo Zero]

I really hate how I still don't have the Wii U version of this game :|

Anyone here willing to do some research on ledge trump > air slash KO percentages (especially in smash art)? Sorry if I sound like I'm demanding it but if anything, I'm just asking if anyone's as curious as I am with this. I would ask @ Neo Zero (sorry for the tag again :<) but if anyone can also help (in case if he doesn't feel like it which is fine by all means ), then that would be the highest level of amazing.

sorry mate, my "project" is nearing it's final stages, so all my attention has to go into it.

 

[Berserker.]

sorry mate, my "project" is nearing it's final stages, so all my attention has to go into it.

It's cool dude

I could try, but I'm still doing those Smash & Vanilla KO percentages with Vanilla Shulk at 100% with Rage included . I'll be doing Decisive Smash & Hyper Smash KOs as well.

Thanks a ton Mace :D

I just quoted in reverse. Lol. But yeah, thanks for the replies.

 

[erico9001]

While you guys are at it with MALLC and MADC

Start ledge trumping to air slash in smash art. Listen to @ Neo Zero when he says that it's really good because it REALLY is. Holy ****. LOL

You could have been doing this months ago, lol.

I need to get back to studying for my 2 exams tomorrow, so not testing anything. Just an idea. What about reversed air slash for ledge trumps?

It's a nice thing, but at higher levels, players know how to prevent ledge trumps from happening in the first place. That's why I'm not stressed about learning how to do it while in Advancing Air Slash right now. I think perfecting MALLC and learning MADC have much more application.

Im sure its been discussed before, but since were talking about abusing the activation of an art i think it's a good idea to bring up b-reversing. I've been utilizing b-reversing the activation as a mix up option, and it's been very successful so far, not just online but in locals too. I can't tell you how many times I've had people say "I didn't realize you were facing that way." I'll do a mini write up about possible applications (unless it has already been done), I don't claim to be an expert but have the ability to change direction midair without my opponent knowing which way I'll be facing gives me nice options. You can even change your momentum midair with proper timing.

I could use some, because I'm just not seeing anything. Well, now that I think of it, maybe when I switch to Monado Shield after being thrown up, I could reverse my velocity (it drives me nuts that everyone on smashboards says momentum) to have a safe landing. But still, I wonder what you have found.

 

[YouReadMyName]

I'm struggling with being creative with Shulk. It feels like nairplane every time I play him. Any suggestions to spice my game up? New approach options? Kill options? Neutral?

 

[DrShankums]

I could use some, because I'm just not seeing anything. Well, now that I think of it, maybe when I switch to Monado Shield after being thrown up, I could reverse my velocity (it drives me nuts that everyone on smashboards says momentum) to have a safe landing. But still, I wonder what you have found.

Ha well I didn't want to confuse anyone by what I was talking about, but right before your art is activated you can change your direction and give yourself velocity.

I'm struggling with being creative with Shulk. It feels like nairplane every time I play him. Any suggestions to spice my game up? New approach options? Kill options? Neutral?

Learning the mechanics of the Monado art activation will add a whole new world of depth to shulk. Try checking out the A/T and combo thread too, there are very practical combos in it.

 

[Masonomace]

I'm struggling with being creative with Shulk. It feels like nairplane every time I play him. Any suggestions to spice my game up? New approach options? Kill options? Neutral?

You can get creative with NAir alone. NAir starts becoming active behind Shulk, so if you were to be using BAir to poke them from afar & they start charging you, it's nice to disengage from very close skirmishes with the opponent by Short Hopping + drifting away from them while FF'ing it so you quickly finish the move with only 12 frames of landing lag.

Furthermore, you can use NAir for off-stage edge-guarding since it's capable of beating airdodge as long as you drift accordingly to how they're drifting while airdodging. It's also neat how the Speed Art + NAir act together. RAR NAir right as your coming towards your opponent & drifting past them so that you're behind & FastFalling to the floor opens up an opportunity to watch what they do out of shield. Same can be said for the Jump Art, it's just that your Short Hop is higher but the notable thing about Jump Shulk using NAir in this manner is you slide across the floor thus making your landing slightly safer.

Sorry I didn't answer any of your suggested questions, but DrShankums mentioned a good point to check out the ATs Thread. Some interesting stuff there for sure.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Since we were talking about b-reversing earlier, what do you guys think about using a b reversed Art to land from high up? If your opponent is chasing you, you can airdodge afterwards or use an aerial and carry the momentum from the b reverse. Just changing your momentum very quickly might even mess up your opponent to the point where the airdodge or aerial is not necessary.

 

[DrShankums]

Since we were talking about b-reversing earlier, what do you guys think about using a b reversed Art to land from high up? If your opponent is chasing you, you can airdodge afterwards or use an aerial and carry the momentum from the b reverse. Just changing your momentum very quickly might even mess up your opponent to the point where the airdodge or aerial is not necessary.

I really like doing this. Being unexpected and having options an opponent is not used to seeing/dealing with is super rewarding. I noticed you do not do an activation pose out of tumble. if you get knocked high into the air you should buffer an air dodge to get you out of the animation and allow yourself to do an activation pose if you end up needing it. To change velocity requires strict timing of directional input right as the art activates. If you just need to change direction and not velocity however, you can hold the direction you need to face before and during activation and you will simply change direction.

To cover everything will require some clips I think. I'm probably going to end up making a video guide, since it will allow me to go into more detail and allow me to showcase real applicable use. This is something I've been utilizing for a while now and I see it as important knowledge for shulk players, on par with other techs like MADC. I'm still typing stuff up, expect something soon.

I've taken to calling it MABR, Monado Art B Reversal

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I'm struggling with being creative with Shulk. It feels like nairplane every time I play him. Any suggestions to spice my game up? New approach options? Kill options? Neutral?

I've actually found myself trying to implement Shulk's ground game a little more, especially after shifting my C-Stick to tilts and trying to implement MADC more. Up tilt covers so much space and he can optimize his more forward-based options based on the art he's in (Default -> jab, Buster -> tilts, Speed -> grab game). Not that his aerials aren't fantastic for spacing and you should totally keep using them when you can especially with MALLC and B-reversing Monado activations, but his ground attacks all come out a bit faster so sometimes it pays to amble around patiently on the ground. Just my thoughts and the way I've been playing Shulk recently.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Today I started to mess around with Monado Art Dash Cancelling and trying to implement it during actual matches, and I found two interesting uses for it.

You can use MADC to very quickly change your direction, which your opponent will probably not expect and it may confuse them. Really good for mixups

(Sorry, I don't have a gif of this because I forgot to record the match I did this in) If you grab your opponent a lot when you run towards them and thus condition them to spotdodge when you approach them, you can run towards them, activate any art, and do a MADC fsmash to hit them out of the spotdodge. This would probably work best with Smash to get kills considering your opponent will really want to avoid getting grabbed and Smash dthrown, making it even more likely that they'll spotdodge. You could also do this at low percents though and instead use Buster (or really any art but Smash) to punish the spotdodge for damage instead of a kill.

 

[Berserker.]

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Lylat is now being discussed for the stage discussion thread

 

[Berserker.]

Man. This thread has been quiet for a while :<

Questioning time~

Have you guys tinkered around with MADC into speed art? The sudden burst of speed with speed art could set up for some nifty mix ups or mind games for Shulk's offensive game.

Like... Example, MADC into speed art, dash to the opposite direction after MADC'ing, then boost pivot grab. Or boost pivot f-tilt.

 

[YouReadMyName]

I use Speed art to get my grabs tbh. SH Nairs to space, then slowly walk towards them then sanic speed dash grab. It's really fast (because speed) and no one has that fast a reaction time. If they actually do have godlike reflexes and spot dodge u can mix it up next time by pivot grabbing. Shulk in speed art basically allows unpunishable pivot grabs.

 

[Berserker.]

I use Speed art to get my grabs tbh. SH Nairs to space, then slowly walk towards them then sanic speed dash grab. It's really fast (because speed) and no one has that fast a reaction time. If they actually do have godlike reflexes and spot dodge u can mix it up next time by pivot grabbing. Shulk in speed art basically allows unpunishable pivot grabs.

That didn't really answer my question. I mean, I agree that 1/2 of the reason why I use speed is for the pivot grab but I'm talking about mixing up speed with MADC.

If you weren't really aiming to answer my question then ignore this post and carry on

 

[erico9001]

I love speed's pivot grab on stages with walk-offs like Delfino and Castle Siege.
@ Berserker.

>Also, maybe if you are approaching with MADC, and the art activates before you reach the opponent, you could do a little dash dance or perfect pivot to throw them off before you continue with your approach (monado speed pivot grab, anyone?)

Kind of like this?

 

[Berserker.]

I love speed's pivot grab on stages with walk-offs like Delfino and Castle Siege.
@ Berserker.

Kind of like this?

Yep :D

Let's not forget that dashing off from MADC with speed art isn't our only option. Shulk's walk speed is really fast so walking d-tilts or jabs off from MADC speed may be legit.

 

[Peppa]

I'll take a stab!
I love MADC with speed, its a big part of my game when I remind myself to stop jumping so often. The sudden boost in movement makes a quick boosted pivot grab insane and almost impossible to react too.

On an unrelated note how do you guys handle the neutral game? Against low frame data characters like , I'm having an extremely hard time getting much in. I've noticed after watching a few of you guys that it boils down to just fishing for that edgeguard. My problem especially recently (And especially after putting some work into small ) is that he just seems so, slow on the punch. Yes I know his frame data and to space well and it probably boils down to my impatience to rack up damage and I flip on monado arts too early and probably become obvious with what art I'm using while I turn it on before I go in but a lot of the time outside of speed or jump in some cases people can just camp your monado arts out with ease. My (bar jump) has a semi difficult time against people like those who especially like to just run away and spam, lets say, water shurikens then come in and punish hard once you overcommit to a nair on shield because it may autocancel but anything under frame 5 will just lose. Obviously speed works decently for me in most match ups to rack up some percent, but as I'm sure you guys all know, speed can feel like your poking them with a big toothpick even after a big string. It takes an extraordinary amount of work just to get a moment that's right to get 30% or so.

I think I probably jump too much, I've been more conscious of trying to use pivot ftilts, but its getting slightly aggravating when you see a falcon knee into the ground and you try to go in but his endlag and start up of his jab just seems faster then the time you can get in range and wait for your start up lag to come out.
I'm just really at a loss because it feels in some match ups if they know what they're doing they can just beat you out every time. I'd upload a video but all I have is an iPhone camera and the only replays I have saved are old or some friendlies versus Erico.

TL;DR whiny rant: How do you guys like to play the neutral game with baits and punishes as Shulk, or do you even, especially against the faster characters?

 

[Berserker.]

Less aerials, more tilting. Dash to shield can counter aerial spamming and frequent jumping so just focus on walking and attacking with tilts. Use n-air or retreating f-air against their grounded approaches. When they try to rushdown from mid-air, f-air them or use u-tilt.

I'd say more but I think this really comes down to you being too impatient. You can't really afford to **** up your spacing with Shulk because his attacks are mostly punishable on whiff. As much as possible, make sure that you can zone out your opponent. You already have the range to do it. Polish your fundamentals and spacing. Try your best to never get close to your opponent. It's fine to rush in with jump though since you can really mess with them with your mobility.

If you look at it from my perspective, you really need to notice that N-air comes out at frame 13 at its first hitbox which appears behind Shulk. F-air comes out at frame 14 which is as fast as his f-smash. Like, I know these are undoubtedly Shulk's best moves but come on. You don't use this while your opponent isn't doing anything. You use it against any of their attempts to approach you with a dash attack or an aerial because you'll obviously beat them out with your range. You're better off using his d-tilt, f-tilt, or a spaced b-air for poking. ALTHOUGH, you don't really have to worry about shielding once buster is activated. With speed art, make sure you mix it up with dash dancing, dash to shield to OoS grab, or boost pivot grab or boost pivot f-tilt. I've already stated what to do in jump. Smash art is really situational. Only use that when you've got the opponent at a disadvantageous situation. Shield art is self-explanatory.

As for zoners, speed or jump. Use those arts in tandem every now and then. Once your in their zone, let it rip and make them feel it.

tl;dr: just be more patient and focus more on maximizing your range. I also wanna note that 5 of those 7 characters are actually even or advantageous for Shulk. I'm not calling you bad at all but 5 of those match ups have it even (2 of them are at Shulk's solid advantage) because Shulk is assumed to wall out his opponent really well and the arts make it easier for him to space them out, so I think it may be impatience and mis-spacing that's the issue here.


On another topic, what H.Xord said basically got me thinking....

I know that speed is "godlike" and all that but the damage output isn't really that good. This is my main gripe with speed. The damage output is reduced so well.... the reward for using it isn't so good. I was thinking about simply using speed to set them at a disadvantaged position then quickly switching to buster once I knocked them into mid-air or have them on the ledge or on a platform where they're above me (which gives me the advantage). Definitely sounds like I'm simplifying it because I actually am tbh. This is where MALLC or MADC comes in though to make art switching mostly safe (along with throwing out hitboxes which are safe because cancelled landing lag :>)

The good thing about speed's damage output though is that the damage output is decent enough to set them at a percentage such that one good jump combo is guaranteed to kill 'em off-stage.

 

[Peppa]

You're absolutely right. I've been going and seeing Shulk for what he isn't recently since I played Mii Brawler. I was so focused on how bad his frame data is, which it is, but not really applying it right.
I guess when I played against people who don't know how to perfect shield well you can get lazy and use nairs on shield or whatever as an approach, which is dumb. I really have only had a problem with when he would camp in front of a stationary shuriken and never ever approach for the whole eight minutes, and have limited experience bar some ladder matches vs the others. Sheik gives me trouble playing intelligently or not, Mac I either destroy if I'm playing calmly or just get screwed if I'm approaching him (Me writing that makes me feels dumb ). I've probably done poorly against faster characters recently because I'm trying too hard to get in and just eating their faster attacks instead of calming down. Damn you ADHD!
Thanks a lot for the reply, I'll be sure to look at it a bit especially with two tournies coming up.

My playstyle as a whole as Shulk recently has been the same as tournament nerves, but all the time. Hopefully I'll get further then just losing both games after doing well in pools these next two with this stuff in mind!

 

[kenniky]

On another topic, what H.Xord said basically got me thinking....

I know that speed is "godlike" and all that but the damage output isn't really that good. This is my main gripe with speed. The damage output is reduced so well.... the reward for using it isn't so good. I was thinking about simply using speed to set them at a disadvantaged position then quickly switching to buster once I knocked them into mid-air or have them on the ledge or on a platform where they're above me (which gives me the advantage). Definitely sounds like I'm simplifying it because I actually am tbh. This is where MALLC or MADC comes in though to make art switching mostly safe (along with throwing out hitboxes which are safe because cancelled landing lag :>)

The good thing about speed's damage output though is that the damage output is decent enough to set them at a percentage such that one good jump combo is guaranteed to kill 'em off-stage.

The only problem with something like this is that Monado Arts don't activate fast enough. Like if you could instantly switch that would be great, but you have to wait almost a full second and it's honestly not fast enough to start putting on super pressure immediately.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

On another topic, what H.Xord said basically got me thinking....

I know that speed is "godlike" and all that but the damage output isn't really that good. This is my main gripe with speed. The damage output is reduced so well.... the reward for using it isn't so good. I was thinking about simply using speed to set them at a disadvantaged position then quickly switching to buster once I knocked them into mid-air or have them on the ledge or on a platform where they're above me (which gives me the advantage). Definitely sounds like I'm simplifying it because I actually am tbh. This is where MALLC or MADC comes in though to make art switching mostly safe (along with throwing out hitboxes which are safe because cancelled landing lag :>)

The good thing about speed's damage output though is that the damage output is decent enough to set them at a percentage such that one good jump combo is guaranteed to kill 'em off-stage.

I've actually been thinking about this a lot, especially since I started using the 3213 set, where Hyper Speed lowers the damage even more. My thought is use speed to get a grab, then buffer the deactivation during the throw animation so that any follow up string or read you manage to get afterward is at your standard damage, since you don't really need speed anymore now that you've reached them. I don't think getting to buster would be possible without resetting to neutral though.

 

[Zatchiel]

I know that speed is "godlike" and all that but the damage output isn't really that good. This is my main gripe with speed. The damage output is reduced so well.... the reward for using it isn't so good. I was thinking about simply using speed to set them at a disadvantaged position then quickly switching to buster once I knocked them into mid-air or have them on the ledge or on a platform where they're above me (which gives me the advantage).

That's efficient. Especially not bad if you want to use Speed again right after Buster.

Speed's damage output doesn't reduce its reward so badly. We get more combos, one of the best pivot grabs in the game, along with glorious air and ground speed. The pros heavily outweigh the cons.

The only problem with something like this is that Monado Arts don't activate fast enough. Like if you could instantly switch that would be great, but you have to wait almost a full second and it's honestly not fast enough to start putting on super pressure immediately.

That's not really a problem though. It'd be a problem if we couldn't attack between the time of selecting the art and the art activating, but we can use vanilla freely between art transitions. Don't neglect it.

If you're in control, you should never let up just to change arts. Even if you want some survivability with a switch to Shield, you can continue walling the opponent out with attacks before, during, or after activation.

 

[Berserker.]

@ Locke 06

I think your (old) post in the social would make a good read in here

Alright. I got to the part of the night where 80% of the people who join the For Glory lobby, leave because they see an English name and are worried about lag. Shulk night 1 is officially over. (err... that was 45 minutes ago)

Speed>Buster is a lot harder than I anticipated. It worked well against zoners, after I got past their walls, but against more rounded close combat fighters the switching to buster took a little longer than I wanted it to. It still worked decently, but it definitely needs faster mashing and good multi-tasking because you're kind of giving your opponent a quick break in your pressure. I didn't even attempt to try and art-cancel landing lag and stuff. A few times when I'd try to do Speed>Buster, I would be forced to shield before I could get to Buster... which led to switching to Shield art. But then it got me thinking about the Shield art a little bit more...

Disclaimer: This could be because I'm playing on For Glory, but I found some decent success with what follows. Also, this probably could go somewhere other than the social thread... but meh.

When I have my opponent is offstage (but I'm not quick enough to edge guard) or on the ledge, I intentionally switch to Shield art. The mobility isn't too much of an issue, since my opponent's options are limited, and the shield art allows me to keep my positioning better if I do end up getting hit. If I get them off, I'll buffer the MA cancel during the ending animation of the move I just hit them with, start the activation for the Jump art as soon as possible, jump off and edge guard. By the time I'm ready to double jump, the art will be active and I can proceed from there.

I did a search in the Monado thread, and it seems like you guys picked up on how it makes some moves not safe on hit. But I'm pretty sure using Shield in this way hasn't been discussed. I think I might have experienced that a couple times and why this is potentially a viable strategy.

[collapse=Example]Little Mac's air side-B can be punished on hit against Shield Shulk by ftilt when Shulk is at 30% (tested in training mode with a computer, so I am not actually confident about this example). If you are okay with him hitting you so you trade, you can focus on shutting down his other options. This makes your ledge game stronger.[/collapse]

If this was already posted by someone or if the idea was already posted by someone in some other page then my bad. This thread is really productive and it moves quite fast (for a meta game thread)

 

[Locke 06]

I haven't pulled out Shulk in tourney yet, but in friendlies I can say that voluntary shield for ledge pressure still works well. Keeping your positional advantage even if you are hit is super cool. Downside is poor damage output, but coming from Mega Man, any % is good %.

 

[kenniky]

That's not really a problem though. It'd be a problem if we couldn't attack between the time of selecting the art and the art activating, but we can use vanilla freely between art transitions. Don't neglect it.

If you're in control, you should never let up just to change arts. Even if you want some survivability with a switch to Shield, you can continue walling the opponent out with attacks before, during, or after activation.

Fair enough. Takes practice to move and attack while switching arts though. Maybe I should switch my specials to a shoulder button... hmm

 

[erico9001]

Moving while switching arts is something I think playing piano helped me with.
---
Anyways, so here's the monado arts from my perspective.

No monado art has a glaring weakness except for Monado Smash, and maybe Monado Shield WITHOUT Advancing Air Slash.

Monado Jump:
You take 1.22x damage. However, your jumping ability makes it easy to avoid attacks and escape from combos. You can be very unpredictable with this art, and you have very good control over the stage. More damage taken if you are hit, but much less of a chance to be hit in the first place.

Monado Speed:
You deal .8x damage. However, you get more hits out thanks to improved grab game, faster air speed, and combos. Your worse shield pushback is mediated by improved cross-ups and aerial mobility (being able to go forward and back easily). Lowered jump height is fine, because your recovery is actually still improved by the air speed.

Monado Shield:
Worse mobility all around. So, just don't move around much; play a defensive game. Rather than hit shields with your worse shield pushback, use your extra shield strength to play a great defensive game. You don't need to approach projectile users anyways; let them stale on your shield. Uhh, you deal less damage, but take less damage yourself. Has an overall effect of slowing the game. Less air mobilty/recovery is somewhat mediated by the less knockback taken. However, hits can string you off-stage. Then, this is mediated either by switching to Monado Jump or using Advancing Air Slash.

Monado Buster:
You deal more damage. 1.4x damage. You take more damage. 1.13x damage. I have seen several different people call Buster risky. No. If you take some hits while in Monado Buster, it's really not that bad. In the long run, 2-4% more damage is not going to matter, especially if Monado Shield is being used well to extend your stock. If anything, the shield pushback makes Buster more safe. Also, of course, the lower knockback is not actually a real downside, because it allows for combos (easy D-throw combos).

Monado Smash:
There's no too much that redeems this art outside of kill percents. Helps against some combos and can get some early gimps. If used defensively, it does help keep people away from you for some time as it sends them farther away. That could moderately help in stalling, but Jump/Shield are better for that role.

Where am I going with this? Well, I think this is important for understanding why decisive arts are so good.

 

[Zatchiel]

I have seen several different people call Buster risky. No. If you take some hits while in Monado Buster, it's really not that bad.

Quoted for immense truth.

I used to worry about it too, but I've come to understand it's not nearly as concerning as Jump or Smash unless you're running Hyper Arts.

Monado Speed:
You get more hits out thanks to improved grab game, faster air speed, and combos.

I should point out that these are all benefits of Jump as well.

 

[TheHopefulHero]

Moving while switching arts is something I think playing piano helped me with.
---
Anyways, so here's the monado arts from my perspective.

No monado art has a glaring weakness except for Monado Smash, and maybe Monado Shield WITHOUT Advancing Air Slash.

Monado Jump:
You take 1.22x damage. However, your jumping ability makes it easy to avoid attacks and escape from combos. You can be very unpredictable with this art, and you have very good control over the stage. More damage taken if you are hit, but much less of a chance to be hit in the first place.

Monado Speed:
You deal .8x damage. However, you get more hits out thanks to improved grab game, faster air speed, and combos. Your worse shield pushback is mediated by improved cross-ups and aerial mobility (being able to go forward and back easily). Lowered jump height is fine, because your recovery is actually still improved by the air speed.

Monado Shield:
Worse mobility all around. So, just don't move around much; play a defensive game. Rather than hit shields with your worse shield pushback, use your extra shield strength to play a great defensive game. You don't need to approach projectile users anyways; let them stale on your shield. Uhh, you deal less damage, but take less damage yourself. Has an overall effect of slowing the game. Less air mobilty/recovery is somewhat mediated by the less knockback taken. However, hits can string you off-stage. Then, this is mediated either by switching to Monado Jump or using Advancing Air Slash.

Monado Buster:
You deal more damage. 1.4x damage. You take more damage. 1.13x damage. I have seen several different people call Buster risky. No. If you take some hits while in Monado Buster, it's really not that bad. In the long run, 2-4% more damage is not going to matter, especially if Monado Shield is being used well to extend your stock. If anything, the shield pushback makes Buster more safe. Also, of course, the lower knockback is not actually a real downside, because it allows for combos (easy D-throw combos).

Monado Smash:
There's no too much that redeems this art outside of kill percents. Helps against some combos and can get some early gimps. If used defensively, it does help keep people away from you for some time as it sends them farther away. That could moderately help in stalling, but Jump/Shield are better for that role.

Where am I going with this? Well, I think this is important for understanding why decisive arts are so good.

I can attest to this ( and Mace can further prove this if he's reading this). All the arts give Shulk a lot and help out with a bunch of match ups, and switching while moving gives Shulk more options when they activate. Though I will say that Smash can help out with stalling if Shulk doesn't take added damage in Smash. With that said, I do have a question for you guys: How do you feel about fighting patient players?

I feel that Shulk's frame data comes back to bite me when I'm fighting someone who can wait and block or dance around my strikes for a punish. It's not just with fast characters, but with anyone. I know that Shulk shouldn't be crazy with the agro, but when I fight from a distance, it's as if the opponent knows what I'm about to do and just move out the way. I feel a little off now and I wanted to hear what you guys had to say on the matter.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I got myself wrecked by a patient Fox the other day. I don't blame him either: why hit any buttons when you can interrupt half our moveset? I feel like you just have to move around enough to scare them into doing something using Jump or Speed's mobility mixups. I dunno though.

 

[Rawbinator]

This has probably been talked about before but I just noticed the significant difference between a 'spaced' up smash (brings them up to the top of the sword) and a 'right on top of them' up smash. On 3DS it kills Mario at 95% vs. 104% on FD

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Have we ever talked about how amazing usmash is at catching normal ledge getups since it lasts so long?

It's really good in Speed as well since you can stand in the middle of the stage where your opponent thinks they're safe to do a normal ledge getup but you can just be like lolnope, run over, and usmash

Also, MADC is really good at catching people offguard.

 

[Masonomace]

Im sure its been discussed before, but since were talking about abusing the activation of an art i think it's a good idea to bring up b-reversing. I've been utilizing b-reversing the activation as a mix up option, and it's been very successful so far, not just online but in locals too. I can't tell you how many times I've had people say "I didn't realize you were facing that way." I'll do a mini write up about possible applications (unless it has already been done), I don't claim to be an expert but have the ability to change direction midair without my opponent knowing which way I'll be facing gives me nice options. You can even change your momentum midair with proper timing.

I feel that B-Reversing with the Jump Art is best. Why? Because the movement shift from one direction to the next by retreating away from the opponent on top of sliding further away upon landing makes that supposedly unsafe BAir much more safe to hit with the sourspot if not the very tip of the Beam. MALLC is nice but a B-Reversed Jump Art activation + an aerial looks much safer even with the aerial's landing lag. Ofc B-Reversing with any Art is good especially Speed & Buster because their increased stats favor the situation (Speed's air speed after the B-Reverse & Buster's increased shield knockback in case someone likes to dash to shield those aerials we like to throw out upon landing).

I haven't been able to B-Reverse a Monado Art activation if I'm tumble falling though. I think it's impossible to do so unless we regulate that tumble fall animation by inputting an airdodge or aerial. If someone has done it please correct me & lemme know. I gotta say though, Shulk is the strangest character to B-Reverse. This comes from a Brawl Lucario main who spammed a bunch of B-Reverse Aura Sphere Charges.

 

[Ultinarok]

After a great deal more practice, I can say that Jump Art is, indeed, the best. It literally makes every aerial a godlike finisher (although it actually makes nair less useful than when in Speed) except nair, and allows far earlier kills than vanilla while retaining full damage and weight unlike Smash. Only issue is learning to control the timing and make the best use of rising and falling to escape frame data issues.

Rising/falling dair meteors, rising uair finishers at the blast zone in a double jump, bair strings off stage and extremely aggressive fair pressure, along with falling nairs and high altitude AS, make Jump all around useful for edgeguarding, juggling, approaching, dodging, mixing up, recovering and even setting up smash attacks. Shulk's aerial game becomes one of the best in the game when in Jump, probably only beaten by Yoshi (and Yoshi is at greater risk using it due to an ineffective third jump).

Have we ever talked about how amazing usmash is at catching normal ledge getups since it lasts so long?

It's really good in Speed as well since you can stand in the middle of the stage where your opponent thinks they're safe to do a normal ledge getup but you can just be like lolnope, run over, and usmash

Also, MADC is really good at catching people offguard.

Sorry for double post, but I'm about to go to bed, and I just wanted to comment that the top gif is pretty much my favorite kill method with Shulk outside of meteors and Jump kills.

USmash is hype.
USmash is love.
USmash is life.

 

[kenniky]

Sorry for double post, but I'm about to go to bed, and I just wanted to comment that the top gif is pretty much my favorite kill method with Shulk outside of meteors and Jump kills.

USmash is hype.
USmash is love.
USmash is life.

You can click the edit button to edit your posts instead

Also yeah usmash is pretty amazing if you can hit it

keyword if

that thing has a skinny hitbox geez

 

[Champ Gold]

I'm actually working with the Speed+Buster combo and it does wonders and especially how aggressive how I am. Also Up-Throw into Up-Tilt Buster is really decent.


And I want to integrate Jump into my game play but I don't have a significant way of doing so. Shield and Smash are situational.

 

[Ultinarok]

You can click the edit button to edit your posts instead

Also yeah usmash is pretty amazing if you can hit it

keyword if

that thing has a skinny hitbox geez

I know you can, but I can't ever seem to edit in a reply unless I started with a reply. When I choose edit, the reply option can't be selected and when I choose reply it makes a new post. I probably just don't know how to do it.

And U-Smash has an excellent horizontal hitbox for an U-Smash. Its basically Lucas' with less power and cooldown. And thanks to Speed, Shulk can utilize it extremely well in a slide. Slide smash USmash is my favorite grounded Shulk approach because it connects so well unless the opponent manages to roll out of the way.

If we're talking skinny U-Smash hitboxes, try Samus or Pit lol.