Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[Berserker.]

Yeah, is not really an issue, though I dont know where that quick hitbox is.

I saw a villager fell right through the beam without taking damage.

Yeah. That happened to me in the tournament but I was more bothered by the trip sapling that ****ed up my mid-range. Haha

Oh, perfect pivoting is beast guys. Just saying. Please learn. I know reads and fundamentals are always and will always be better but our character is spacing/precision based so this is really important

PP f-tilts and PP f-smashes yo. Hnnngh. Once you get PP'ing down, f-tilt would be like a 4/5 to you guys instead of 3.5/5

 

[Zatchiel]

I'll try to keep this somewhat short. Some of you might find this useful, some of you might not.

Vanilla's smash attacks are decent for killing right after Buster. But there's something that makes this fact even better, and it's been right under our noses. You'll see what I mean in a moment.

We all love n-air, right? Not just for spacing, but for comboing. Buster n-air can combo into jab, tilts, f-smash, etc. But I want to focus on f-smash.

Buster n-air -> f-smash does absurd damage. Sometimes even when you don't have to pile on so much damage. Instead of piling on damage like that, you can just kill them if possible.

As always, I prefer to show when I tell: http://webmshare.com/play/o8Ryo

You can probably tell what's happening: Buster n-air combos into vanilla f-smash for kills. All it takes is deactivation upon landing.

I'll cut it here because of the character hype going on right now.

 

[Berserker.]

So I've been flopping hard with Smash art. Somehow, I manage to **** up really hard with the art to the point that I even go for speed or shield to land KO's instead (while grinding out for more damage in buster). A fellow Shulk main of mine (whose significantly better at handling Smash art than I am) told me that he uses Smash art strictly for the kill throws, since he's too scared to risk it with a read or hard read.

How have you guys been doing with Smash art?

 

[AlvisCPU]

I do terribly with Smash and I go to Speed or Jump for kills too. I find the problem is that it screams your intention to your opponent so they'll naturally play it safe. I think using it for grabs is solid advice and something I should try to implement. There are very few safe things to do in Smash, so at least a grab is quick compared to everything else.

 

[Zatchiel]

If I can manage, I try to trap them with f-smash, u-smash, grab, or jab before Smash art activates. I made a post about that strategy earlier in the thread, so I won't delve, but from my experience it's the most effective way to enter the art.

If I already have Smash on and the game is in neutral, I just walk around to apply my pressure. Make them afraid of grab, see how they react, and use that knowledge to take advantage of later reactions.

If I lose control at any point, 80% of the time Smash goes off immediately. It's not necessary to kill, and if the opponent plays their cards right it can only harm Shulk when he's not in control.

 

[kenniky]

I really only use Smash when I've just died and the opponent is at like 100+%.

 

[Berserker.]

The only time I use Smash is when my opponent is when the opponent is at 110%+ and they're hanging on the ledge. From there, I try to time my u-tilt which I **** up for some reason. I may restrict smash art for grabbing only or I might as well do what Zatch does and time it such that it activates while I combo into something like f-tilt or f-smash

 

[Jalio_the_Brave]

So I have a really hard time breaking the neutral with Shulk. I find I either can't get in because I get shield grabbed, or when I try to space with my tilts I end up getting punished because my opponent's moves just seem to come out faster. Even when I tomahawk and try to space my nair so that I end up behind my opponent I usually end up getting grabbed or eat a smash attack. When I finally get my opponent airborne I usually can't get my fair or nair out quickly enough to capitalize on the situation. I always mistime my fair off stage and my opponent ends up airdodging or punishing me with an aerial. I try to bait the airdodge, bu I can never get my aerials to come out quickly enough to punish with my read on the airdodge.

I guess my biggest issue is I'm having trouble with conversion and making the most of my openings. I'm also struggling in making openings and punishing better. Any suggestions?

 

[Berserker.]

So I have a really hard time breaking the neutral with Shulk. I find I either can't get in because I get shield grabbed, or when I try to space with my tilts I end up getting punished because my opponent's moves just seem to come out faster. Even when I tomahawk and try to space my nair so that I end up behind my opponent I usually end up getting grabbed or eat a smash attack. When I finally get my opponent airborne I usually can't get my fair or nair out quickly enough to capitalize on the situation. I always mistime my fair off stage and my opponent ends up airdodging or punishing me with an aerial. I try to bait the airdodge, bu I can never get my aerials to come out quickly enough to punish with my read on the airdodge.

I guess my biggest issue is I'm having trouble with conversion and making the most of my openings. I'm also struggling in making openings and punishing better. Any suggestions?

Well, first off, we found your issue. You're trying to get in with Shulk. That should NEVER be your objective against you're against a camper like Mega Man or Duck Hunt but even then, "getting in" for Shulk pretty much means entering at mid-range position which is where Shulk thrives in. The rest of the issue can be answered with, "Practice and become better with the character." Just get your execution right with your mistimed f-airs and your air dodge bait attempts. The fact that you're getting grabbed or smashed by your opponent when you're attempting to mix up with tomahawk and cross-up n-air means that you're predictable and somewhat easy to read (it happens, even to me at some points, lol, but knowing your options is really important in avoiding situations like these). You have more options than just to do those two. You can go for the grab, or FF into d-tilt which you can convert into f-air. With jump art, you can basically use your mobility to move around your opponent and bait them into leaving an opening. From that, you can capitalize. About punishing, your best options for punishing (imo) are jab combo (frame 5, will probably come out quick enough), grab (can convert into more damage), f-smash or f-tilt. Even if you know these options, using them properly is all up to how you use 'em. Oh and last and certainly not the least, improve your spacing. Spacing is very crucial and important to playing Shulk properly

 

[Zatchiel]

I get shield grabbed

Respect the option. Plain and simple. Don't attack shields unless you know your choice of pressure is safe.

I try to space with my tilts I end up getting punished because my opponent's moves just seem to come out faster

Shulk's tilts aren't the best for stuffing grounded approaches. They are very slow, so it's not hard to invade Shulk's bubble while his feet are on the ground. Aerials are usually better for spacing.

Even when I tomahawk and try to space my nair so that I end up behind my opponent I usually end up getting grabbed or eat a smash attack

Blade portion of n-air is not safe on shield, to my knowledge. Don't challenge shields with it unless you're going to drift away (spacing with the beam portion).

When I finally get my opponent airborne I usually can't get my fair or nair out quickly enough to capitalize on the situation. I always mistime my fair off stage and my opponent ends up airdodging or punishing me with an aerial. I try to bait the airdodge, bu I can never get my aerials to come out quickly enough to punish with my read on the airdodge.

Work on your execution. N-air and f-air are really good at punishing aerial options because of their coverage.

I guess my biggest issue is I'm having trouble with conversion and making the most of my openings. I'm also struggling in making openings and punishing better. Any suggestions?

Your opponent will open themselves up either trying to punish you or trying to avoid anticipated punishment. Just be patient and look for habits.

As for making the most of your punishes, training mode works best for getting acclimated with true combos and practicing some edgeguards. Other than that, it'll fall on how well you're reading your opponent's attempts at resetting to neutral or interrupting your momentum.

 

[Berserker.]

I updated my OP after ages. I labeled the descriptions for jump, speed, shield, and smash as (mostly) outdated write-ups. They're to be replaced sooner or later. Hopefully by a specific guide for the certain art

Has anyone realized that U-smash's first hitbox (not the grounded hitbox) lasts from frame 18 until frame 29 or at least took notice or brought this up in this thread?

 

[Masonomace]

There's so many posts I've missed out on replying to that doing so now through this post will be too lengthy & nobody would read that TL;DR. Owell.

I too am updating my OP including the 2nd OP of the Monado Art tables. I improved slash made the Damage Data Tables more organized & clean, so check 'em out if you guys notice something off or anything I missed.

 

[Berserker.]

I had some friendlies. Things to note

Poking with buster art is kinda unsafe when it comes to dealing with characters with tether grabs. I did b-air on shield in buster art and spaced it well (tipped) but I still got grabbed even then. Just throwing out there (this happened to be a LOT against a Link). Oh, there's a specific custom which you should fear when you have shield on. Yoshi has this egg launch custom so if you're in shield and you get swallowed, quickly switch your art (I'm inconsistent with this). Jump art tomahawks are the truth. Vanilla d-tilt is surprisingly safer than I thought. Speed b-air is amazing against zoners.

Got nothing else to add. Jump art savage life feels great. I think that's about it

--

Lol @ Masonomace

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/AirAcceleration

 

[Zatchiel]

Spoiler

Spoiler

This has happened twice this week, but I really doubt they are isolated incidents for some reason. Has this happened to anyone else?

 

[Berserker.]

Spoiler

Spoiler

This has happened twice this week, but I really doubt they are isolated incidents for some reason. Has this happened to anyone else?

The one on Greninja happened to me already. Quite telling of Substitute's frame speed haha

First one, never happened to me. I guess that has something to do with Shulk not being invincible during the slashing part of the counter (he's invincible when he moves backward). 2nd hit of f-smash came out in time. Lol

Cool stuff

 

[Masonomace]

Spoiler

Spoiler

This has happened twice this week, but I really doubt they are isolated incidents for some reason. Has this happened to anyone else?

The 1st clip is because aerial Vision doesn't have enough intangibility slash invincibility to be protected from the two-hitting F-smash thus you two traded hits. I got the same kind of scenario in a Shulk ditto where the opposing Shulk used Vision airborne while I was going for the D-air & my 1st hit activates his Vision. Then the 2nd hit meteors him downward & I get hit in the same moment. It's weird nonetheless.

Lol at Substitute. That counter seriously needs a buff, but until then, praise the doll.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Didn't know whether to post this in the moveset analysis or here, but I figured here would be better since it pertains more to the ledge rather than the move being used at the ledge

So, it's been brought up before that usmash is really good at catching standard ledge getups since it lasts so long right? Well, I've been doing a little research and if you space yourself properly it can actually cover a standard getup AND a roll. Quick examples of it in action:

Spoiler

And a reference pic for where to stand:

The timing for hitting a standard ledge getup with usmash is slightly slower than hitting someone rolling from the ledge, so this doesn't cover both ledge options completely 100% foolproof, but it's still useful and I figured it was worth sharing anyway

 

[kenniky]

Didn't know whether to post this in the moveset analysis or here, but I figured here would be better since it pertains more to the ledge rather than the move being used at the ledge

So, it's been brought up before that usmash is really good at catching standard ledge getups since it lasts so long right? Well, I've been doing a little research and if you space yourself properly it can actually cover a standard getup AND a roll. Quick examples of it in action:

Spoiler

And a reference pic for where to stand:
View attachment 57891

The timing for hitting a standard ledge getup with usmash is slightly slower than hitting someone rolling from the ledge, so this doesn't cover both ledge options completely 100% foolproof, but it's still useful and I figured it was worth sharing anyway

Don't different characters have different roll lengths as well? so this might not work on everyone

 

[Masonomace]

U-smash indeed can catch the ledge-roll option with the ground-target-only 1st hit knock-up into the 2nd hit from behind thus KO'ing earlier. I've gotten this a few times from some ranked matches on smashladder kudos to that option a few weeks ago. It's nice but Kenniky has a point. Not every character ledge-rolls the same distance & I imagine that not all the characters share the same ledge-roll frame data but I feel most of them do, so it will vary slightly? Not too sure about it, but it would be better to read the ledge-roll option with a U-smash facing toward the stage so that the larger disjoint will more likely knock them up. Still, this is good stuff.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Don't different characters have different roll lengths as well? so this might not work on everyone

Yeah they do. I've tested on about half of the characters so far and it works on all of them. If I find any it doesn't work on then I will update my first post

 

[Berserker.]

View attachment 57891

From that reference point, you can opt for OoS u-smash (perfect shielded if possible) if they try to go for the ledge attack

I'll try to remember this. Thanks SFLR

 

[gridatttack]

Has Shulk grab range always being short?

I am starting to notice it now.

Perhaps it is lack of practice...

 

[Berserker.]

Has Shulk grab range always being short?

Yep. His grab range has always been short. I've gotten used to it though, especially with speed art and buster art. Speed art because dash grabs and boost pivot grabs are the truth. Buster art because I love that his throws do so much damage in buster art so I always attempt to go for it when my opponent is closing in (via pivot grab or dash dance to dash grab)

 

[gridatttack]

I see.

Isn't just that I had today many missed grabs by literally a hair.

Going to derp in training mode trying to master dash grabbing with vanilla, speed and jump arts.

 

[Masonomace]

I see.

Isn't just that I had today many missed grabs by literally a hair.

Going to derp in training mode trying to master dash grabbing with vanilla, speed and jump arts.

Also master Roll-Canceled grabs with Shield Art. The moment Chronopengy mentioned it to me & how it does well with Shield Arts, I practiced it & started loving it. There's also DACG (Dash Attack Canceled Grab) for Speed Arts & Jump Art's landing slide feature into a grab thus performing a sliding standing grab for tomahawking. Lots of good stuff.

 

[Jalio_the_Brave]

Any of you Shulk mains going to CEO? I'd love to get some practice in and get some tips and advice.

 

[Berserker.]

Too poor and too far

 

[Jalio_the_Brave]

Too poor and too far

I get that. Luckily Orlando is like 1.5 hours from where I live, so I couldn't pass up the opportunity considering EVO is too far away for my budget

 

[Peppa]

I get that. Luckily Orlando is like 1.5 hours from where I live, so I couldn't pass up the opportunity considering EVO is too far away for my budget

I just moved from the Central Florida area after growing up there, I hated to learn that the Florida scene was so enormous. Maybe I'll catch something visiting family or something, who knows.

On a side note, I'm late to the party but you are 100% right berserker. Perfect pivot fsmashes were a GIANT part of my Shulk gameplan. You can stand close to edges to either read a get up or roll, which they roll most of the time if you don't space alll get ups well enough, but a PP Fsmash ALWAYS got me the hit confirm on them and it is just one of the best ATs to know as Shulk.

 

[WindHero]

Here's a question for those who are seasoned Shulk mains or just excellent players overall. What is your opinion on learning some of the more advanced techniques (i.e. MALLC, Roll Cancel Grab, etc.) in Training Mode with the speed reduced? For example, practicing MALLC at 1/2 speed to get the feel for when to perform the Art change in midair till I'm comfortable, then increasing the speed to 2/3, and then finally to 1x? I'm afraid that it might foster bad muscle memory, but some of the more advanced MALLC techniques are hard to time out of the box.

Reason I'm asking is because I think I'm trying to pull it off too quickly after learning it. Earlier I self-destructed because I timed it wrong and went to Shield when I was trying to MALLC into Buster. One grab later, I was off the edge of the stage at a low angle...

 

[Masonomace]

Here's a question for those who are seasoned Shulk mains or just excellent players overall. What is your opinion on learning some of the more advanced techniques (i.e. MALLC, Roll Cancel Grab, etc.) in Training Mode with the speed reduced? For example, practicing MALLC at 1/2 speed to get the feel for when to perform the Art change in midair till I'm comfortable, then increasing the speed to 2/3, and then finally to 1x? I'm afraid that it might foster bad muscle memory, but some of the more advanced MALLC techniques are hard to time out of the box.

Reason I'm asking is because I think I'm trying to pull it off too quickly after learning it. Earlier I self-destructed because I timed it wrong and went to Shield when I was trying to MALLC into Buster. One grab later, I was off the edge of the stage at a low angle...

I can see where you're coming from with this question. Mashing B 5 times to get to the Smash Art in one instance per-say out of a Full Hop let alone a Short Hop & MALLC'ing is no easy task. I personally did not want to practice MALLC'ing, DALLC'ing, or HALLC'ing in reduced speed because I wanted to hear Arts cycled quickly if I pressed B more times in regular speed rather than hearing Arts cycled at 1/2x or 2/3x speed. It just didn't feel right to me.

As for RCG, I can agree that slowing that down may help more than MALLC. Establishing muscle memory by tapping the towards the direction you're trying to forward roll at a slower speed helped me because I would always get forward rolls & never actually inputted one step at a time to get a better grasp of when I needed to execute my controls. That way, I would know when to press or + immediately after.

Hoped any of this helped. Sorry if it didn't.

 

[WindHero]

I can see where you're coming from with this question. Mashing B 5 times to get to the Smash Art in one instance per-say out of a Full Hop let alone a Short Hop & MALLC'ing is no easy task. I personally did not want to practice MALLC'ing, DALLC'ing, or HALLC'ing in reduced speed because I wanted to hear Arts cycled quickly if I pressed B more times in regular speed rather than hearing Arts cycled at 1/2x or 2/3x speed. It just didn't feel right to me.

As for RCG, I can agree that slowing that down may help more than MALLC. Establishing muscle memory by tapping the towards the direction you're trying to forward roll at a slower speed helped me because I would always get forward rolls & never actually inputted one step at a time to get a better grasp of when I needed to execute my controls. That way, I would know when to press or + immediately after.

Hoped any of this helped. Sorry if it didn't.

Thanks, I'll be sure to try it that way. I hadn't thought about the Art cycling part, and I think that is where I need to improve so I can pull it off in a real match. I also tend to start cycling too early before my Full Hop... I'll just have to keep practicing against some poor Sheik standing stationary in Training Mode until I get it down.

 

[Peppa]

Maybe its just me, but I really think MALLCs are much easier done then said. Its a daunting task trying to remember which art comes from which hop, but its been a few motnhs since I bumped Shulk to a secondary and I find it even easier then ever to MALLC just due to the experience of playing with him. Its got me some very nice reads. Just like learning the timing for teching at a bunch of percents and against a bunch of different moves, I think MALLC will be something that Shulk mains over time will just get an intuitive feel for, we already are very familiar with our fall speed and know the Monado Art lock in like our right hand.

 

[kenniky]

One thing about MALLC timing is that it changes depending on how fast you can mash B, and as you play more you mash harder

like initially I could do
Jump from full hop apex
Speed from full hop mash
Shield from short hop-double jump mash
Buster from full hop-double jump mash

and I couldn't do Smash at all.

But now I can do all of them one step farther. so I can mash out a Shield MALLC from a full hop without double jump. I can mash out Smash MALLC from full hop double jump as well.

Pretty interesting.

 

[Berserker.]

Maybe its just me, but I really think MALLCs are much easier done then said

This

It becomes easier over time the more you do it then it becomes easy to the point that you can do it while buying groceries. Literally. I can manage to MALLC until Smash art. Practice makes perfect but nobody's perfect, so it makes it near-perfect. Lol

 

[Zatchiel]

MALLC is still my most used Shulk AT. I've been getting better at using it for defensive purposes as well as offense, but I absolutely love it for offense.

I don't think I've mastered it, but I'd be lying if I said the extensive practice didn't pay off greatly.

What is your opinion on learning some of the more advanced techniques (i.e. MALLC, Roll Cancel Grab, etc.) in Training Mode with the speed reduced?

Might be okay for getting an idea. Not so much when it comes to actually practicing the technique, since using it in an actual match typically means applying it in real time.

 

[Berserker.]

I think I should utilize MADC more often. I think there's a specific space or sweetspot wherein MADC is a fantastic idea. It's a lot easier to land MADC d-smash than MADC f-smash due to its multiple active hitboxes and it also starts later which may sound weird at first but the thing with MADC f-smash is that you need to be precise with it (it has lesser active hitboxes). Using it up close to the opponent ofc is a horrible idea (correct me if I'm wrong). It keeps slipping off my mind for some reason.

I haven't really used air dodge MALLC either which is weird. That could really help with the Falcon match up (dealing with those u-air juggles, most notably)

---

Out of curiosity, I might be interested in getting the KO percentages for u-throw > air slash in jump art. I managed to land some KO's with u-throw > air slash with Shulk. Of course, anyone can DI out of it by moving the control stick either upward or backward (idk tbh, upward probably works better) but from the u-throw, it basically becomes a game of conditioning your opponent. Depending on how they react with getting thrown upwards, you can retaliate with a surprise air slash or a u-air. Plus, if they try to get away from you. You can chase them with your high jumps and air speed.

 

[Masonomace]

Out of curiosity, I might be interested in getting the KO percentages for u-throw > air slash in jump art. I managed to land some KO's with u-throw > air slash with Shulk. Of course, anyone can DI out of it by moving the control stick either upward or backward (idk tbh, upward probably works better) but from the u-throw, it basically becomes a game of conditioning your opponent. Depending on how they react with getting thrown upwards, you can retaliate with a surprise air slash or a u-air. Plus, if they try to get away from you. You can chase them with your high jumps and air speed.

The cool thing about Jump Art Air Slash is that it'll KO slightly earlier than a regular Air Slash due to the extra amount of height you travel, scooping the opponent up even higher.

But back to the U-throw > Air Slash situation. They want to DI right above you & a bit behind you if they don't want to be scooped from below. If they DI behind us, I believe a reversed Air Slash will solve that but the U-throw > Air Slash situation doesn't occur often for me. I just know that if they crouch, it puts a heavy damper on us because they won't be launched high enough for the 2nd slash to hit let alone Jump Air Slash.

And as a fun note, Jump Air Slash vs Jump Full Hop F-air done side-by-side simultaneously, Jump Air Slash will connects the rising hit first just before F-air does. It looks like FH F-air would work first because the Full Hop jumps quicker in the air than Air Slash's startup, but once Air Slash gets going it rises faster than the aerial coming out from the Jump Shulk who Full Hops. So there's that.

 

[Berserker.]

Jump FH F-air would probably be our go-to option in case they start DI'ing away from air slash too much thanks to f-air having not only good horizontal reach but surprisingly really good vertical coverage. It won't kill but it's definitely safer than possibly whiffing air slash

 

[WindHero]

I don't know, trying some Jump U-throw -> Air Slash in Training Mode against Mario, seems like you still need to get somewhere over 100% in order to KO. Even in Vanilla mode, it takes until the mid-hundreds to KO from halfway to the edge of Final Destination using Air Slash. Then again, Training Mode doesn't factor in rage, so...

Considering all the ATs we have discovered with Monado Art's canceling ability, I can't help but wonder if there's still some other secret tech that could be immensely useful. Then again, seems like most of the obvious applications have been found... I'd love to see Shulk rise in the tiers someday.