Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[Berserker.]

Alright I want to know how you guys use shield art and what you think about the art. Just curious, that's all. I'll follow up with the responses

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I love Shield. Of course, the obvious use is to live longer. I know I've heard some people before saying that you're barely doing any damage and it's just denying the inevitable, but that's not true. If you can get in mid range with Shield and carefully space with moves such as nair and dtilt, you can still deal damage while being safe from death even if you get hit. However, what I find myself using it for the most is keeping leads: if I'm a stock up and my opponent goes aggro to attempt and kill me, I'll switch to Shield and play defensively, extending my lead, often making my opponent desperate allowing me to easily punish risky attempts by them. I don't think Shield is very good but I still find myself using it often because it still has a use.

 

[AlvisCPU]

Oooh, look at me, venturing outside the Social thread!

I use Shield quite a bit, and I agree with what S.F.L.R_9 said. It's very good for keeping a stock lead provided you space yourself correctly and play defencively. I tend to swap between it and Speed/Buster when I'm between maybe 100-150ish. It allows you to really extend your stock and I do find value in getting those few hits in. Whilst I don't think it gives you the same kind of advantages as Speed or Buster will, it certainly allows you to chip in a bit of extra damage before getting KO'd (if you don't screw up too much). Probably not the best if you're a stock down.

I actually want to ask your opinion about my Arts usage to ask you guys, because now I'm doubting myself. But I have to go and check some things over first, and I don't want to move this away from the Shield discussion just yet

 

[Masonomace]

Alright I want to know how you guys use shield art and what you think about the art. Just curious, that's all. I'll follow up with the responses

Among the 5 standard Monado Arts, Shield Art is my favorite. I think about all of the current positives & negatives that go along with the Art. Table from the OP for reference:

Monado Art | Increased stats | Decreased stats 盾(Shield) | Defense / Weight / Shield strength / Shield regeneration | Damage dealt / Jump height / Ground speed / Air speed

So how I use Shield Art?:

• Healing my bubble shield / equipping Shulk with a stronger shield for the MU. When I'm facing a player who utilizes their character's shield-breaking tools in order to break my shield or wear it down enough in a way to condition me to not shield or at the least scare me to the extent that I don't shield, I pop Shield Art because it instantly strengthens my bubble shield & regenerates my shield even faster thus giving me the guarantee my shield will not break under my better judgement. I then deactivate the Shield Art when I notice the next time I put up my bubble shield that it's full unless they continue trying to break it (lol). This can also apply to characters that have attacks dealing good shielddamage & shieldknockback, like Little Mac or Buster Shulk.
• Establishing a stubborn ground-game / punishing moves at early percentages. Perhaps there are better Arts to choose activating over Shield, as I'm sure many Shulk players definitely have different ways to go about it, but when the stage control is slightly in my favor & I have the center, I activate Shield & close the gap in my own way in order to stay near the heat without getting burned too much by their grab setups into aerial combos. Stay close yet far away enough to punish their mistakes at low to mid percentages with Vision, Air Slash, DTilt or Jab Combo after their attack finishes & you come off of hit-stun faster, or if you DI down to the ground & shield the attack per-say Jab combo & retaliate with your Jab1 to string your Jab combo back. Also, by holding my ground & maintaining presence with closer-combat tilts & SH'd aerials with the occasional Instant Dash Attack for punishes oos, I try disregarding much of the battling thanks to taking less damage.
• Stock Tanking, which is the most clear & obvious reason anyone would use Shield. However, there's more to it than just living longer. Here's my 3 points that may justify using Shield for Stock Tanking:

1. Stockpiling Rage to disguise Shield Art's 30% damage reduction. Many people probably felt that using Shield Art at a low percentage was a bad idea, & that Shield was only plausible to use when Shulk's percentage was high enough that he'd get KOd by a strong attack, which could be true. Whatever the case, Shield Shulk uses Rage quite nicely since the character can easily live to at least 150% & more. Moves that you kept fresh or aren't too staled can be shocking KO options especially when you use Shield Art against characters that struggle with KO'ing in the first place. Vision as a KO option is not surprising in this case, & boy it does the job. This could be why commentators / players have the misconception that Vision is stronger with Shield Art, when really it's not & that Shield + Rage = hotness.
2. Baiting the opponent to try KOing Shield Shulk results in staling their attacks. Have you ever noticed that after an opponent comes off the revival platform on their 2nd or last stock, they'll fight your Shield Shulk & try KOing with their strong options such as a quick smash attack or a kill throw? In our case, that's great assuming you don't die from it because the moment they start using their stronger attacks to try resetting the match but can't finish the stock, they start staling those options. Since we're taking reduced damage + our heavy weight makes our stock last longer against their attacks, we may frustrate them in the long run of the match. (I don't know the numbers on staling to say it's legit to do this, but Smash 4's staling is similar to that of Brawl with the exception of item projectiles, which is a good reason why projectiles don't care much about Shield Shulk & why Shulk Shulk doesn't do that well vs projectile-heavy fighters)
3. Gradually & patiently draining the clock to match your pace. Players that come across Shield Shulk & realize they can't KO you will simply camp you by zoning you from afar or overwhelm you with throwing you around / throwing you off-stage. If you commit to trying to stock tank for as long as you can, the basic advice is to just shield the projectiles & try not to get grabbed. Let the opponent come to you especially if you have the center stage under control. Fast characters that get spaced from Shield Shulk's pivoted FTilt & grabs / DTilts / SH aerials get slowed down by your slow pacing. This strategy btw is only recommended when you have the lead even if the clock is counting down at the last 16 seconds (okay not really but maybe?). Playing by the clock can be lame but meh.

Note: If you do get grabbed & thrown off-stage & you feel you can no longer try to stock tank to prolong the match, then deactivating Shield during hit-stun & cycling to a Jump or Speed Art & recovering back is essential. Although, Shield Art + Advancing Air Slash keeps this going for longer periods of time.

 

[gridatttack]

Interesting replies. I might reconsider using Shield from now on and improve on its usage.

Well, here are my 2 cents as of now for shield.

I seldom use it. Only like, to survive being KOd if the timer is running out.

I mainly dislike the fact that you are slow and heavy, so you get combo'ed faster if they get you, ultimately leading to a kill move that will KO you.

However, mainly this was because im inexperienced with shield.
Will give it a try with the nice insight people gave here.

Now, as a question, what percentages do you guys think activating Shield art is most effective?

Perhaps I was doing wrong in activating it too late.

 

[Kikkipoptart12]

I only use shield when I'm on high percent damage or we I'm in the lead to rack up damage before they kill me. I like Shield it makes it a lot easier to gain stage control with it, I don't think I'll ever play a match without using it once.

Interesting replies. I might reconsider using Shield from now on and improve on its usage.

Well, here are my 2 cents as of now for shield.

I seldom use it. Only like, to survive being KOd if the timer is running out.

I mainly dislike the fact that you are slow and heavy, so you get combo'ed faster if they get you, ultimately leading to a kill move that will KO you.

However, mainly this was because im inexperienced with shield.
Will give it a try with the nice insight people gave here.

Now, as a question, what percentages do you guys think activating Shield art is most effective?

Perhaps I was doing wrong in activating it too late.

Above 100% damage I feel the Shield art is most effective because you are in rage mode and it make it a lot harder for you opponent to KO you.

 

[Zatchiel]

Alright I want to know how you guys use shield art and what you think about the art. Just curious, that's all. I'll follow up with the responses

Shield is tougher to use effectively than the other arts besides Smash, frankly. Most of its benefit comes from its defensive properties.

To add to the positives that Mace detailed, the reduced damage output/knockback can be valuable since you aren't sending the opponent as far away from you on hit, which is precious since you aren't getting anywhere with that mobility. Your range is still excellent should you decide to (or have to, with DArts) keep the art on. Vision becomes much better as a parry, and you're at relatively far lesser risk if you whiff it. After being thrown, in some cases, you can even f-air the opponent to interrupt a follow up. Rage-building in this art is also pretty useful.

For negatives, I have learned if your opponent decides to camp you there is basically nothing you can do. I'm not just talking about projectile camping, either. I mean just avoiding Shulk because of the blatant difference in agility. They can stall the art out if you're at low percents or just opt to juggle you at higher percents. Savvy players will not stale their kill options against Shield Shulk at a wide range of percents.

It takes a lot of patience to get the most out of this art, but it takes even more than that to get anything out of it against characters that are countless times more agile. Before percents at which we are likely to die in vanilla I wouldn't advise the use of this art. But I wouldn't discourage its use either. Shield can be okay against aggressive opponents but it can be pretty costly against those with a similar or superlative amount of patience. It isn't hard to force a stalemate against Shield Shulk.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

For negatives, I have learned if your opponent decides to camp you there is basically nothing you can do. I'm not just talking about projectile camping, either. I mean just avoiding Shulk because of the blatant difference in agility. They can stall the art out if you're at low percents or just opt to juggle you at higher percents.

This is my biggest issue with Shield Shulk. If you're in disadvantage vertically Shield will only get you juggled more. If you're in neutral the game becomes "run and shoot things at Shulk until he realizes he can't fight like this." And if you're in advantage why aren't you switching to Buster/Jump/Smash?

Now for a horizontal disadvantage or low percents in general it might have a small use. As long as your percent isn't getting you thrown off the edge you MIGHT be able to discourage the opponent a little into backing off a little if your percent's low enough that you're falling out of their combos to punish them. But even then Shulk hates having people in his face. If the movement debuff wasn't so significant it'd be a lot handier I think. I do like that it buffs your shield/shield regen and irritates more hot-headed players.

 

[Berserker.]

That's basically why I wanted to ask you guys how you utilize Shield because camping it out works really well. Anyone (almost anyone) can simply camp out the art, run away and wait. The agility is the real killer here for me. I've cut down my usage on shield art solely because of that. I'd only use shield art depending on opponent's habits. If they still try to go for the kill against shield art, I can use it and simply react and punish to their kill options. If they camp Shield though, I'm better off increasing my lead with speed or buster (rage allows buster to have more knockback)

 

[Masonomace]

In the end, this is to be the case. What I mentioned could stay true if the opponent indulged themselves with the Shield Art, but even talking to people about it the matter. .they don't want to deal with Shield which gave me a bit of a smile but it's fairly true. People don't like how Shield Art makes Shulk to live around ~150% or more so they just camp it out by zoning / throwing projectiles or get grab-happy. Players on FG will even roll away & do this per-say I pop Shield at 0% vs a Link. . Anyhow, If I have the lead then I don't mind using Shield because not dying is a good thing, & the other positives Shield brings are useful especially for building up a ton of Rage if not maxing it out (Does Rage stop after 150%? I don't even).

If anything, Shield can act as a supporting Art to transition greatly to the other Arts due to the Rage-Building, & like Berserker mentioned, Buster Arts with maximum Rage would be great to wield for maintaining your lead by dealing much safer damage on-hit & naturally good shielddamage & shieldknockback. Speed's damage reduction would matter even less than Shield's damage reduction when we talk about Rage overcoming the loss of damage.

EDIT: I forgot to mention this, but kikkipoptart didn't. Shield Shulk being prone to being camped ends up with the opponent sacrificing their stage center to Shulk thus Shulk could deactivate Shield right there & cycle to any other Art especially Buster to rack up damage with favorable stage control, or Smash by KOing / launching them off-stage & transitioning to Jump with a ledge-guard.

 

[notyourparadigm]

I'd also advocate for Shield not being without its uses. If you have the stock lead, any extension of that lead is a good thing. Even if you only tack on 5% before dying, that's 5% more than you had before. If the MU often leads to timeouts, surviving 30-40 seconds more on your first stock with alternating Shield and Buster (maybe even Jump or Speed for hit-and-runs or hit-and-jumps) can turn the tides in your favour. And, just like people have mentioned, the rage you can get by surviving to such ridiculous percentages should not be slept on. Your opponent will likely start going for some laggy KO moves once Shield wears off, which can lead into hard-hitting punishes from you if you can anticipate them.

If I notice that my opponent likes to camp me when I am in Shield, I find it also becomes a good stalling mechanism while I wait for a more optimal art for the MU (say, Speed or Buster) to come back. If they aren't taking advantage of me when I'm in a sub-optimal form, then I won't complain-- I'm happy to just shield and swat away projectiles until I have the art I want. It's no surprise that Shulk can benefit a lot more from nothing happening than the rest of the cast (except maybe Robin or ROB, who will also be happy to wait so their projectiles can re-spawn). This might be especially true if you are running with Hyper Arts and are really feeling the art cool down times, but I haven't had much personal experience in using them and could see the drawbacks maybe outweighing the benefits in this case.

I've also been trying to incorporate more crouching into my gameplay as of late, especially considering just how good it is in Shield for reducing hit stun. I'm trying to make it a habit of crouching whenever I'm not doing anything else, even if just for how it looks like I'm planning something. Has anybody else found it worthwhile to sometimes just crouch instead of moving too much? Or am I being careless?

 

[erico9001]

Disclaimer: Depends on match-up.

I love Monado Shield at both early and late percents. A part of me gets upset when I watch Shulks who disregard the art at high percents, instead opting for Monado Speed. I will confess to shouting at my screen: "Go to Monado Shield! Go to Monado Shield! Why aren't you going to Monado Shield?! AGH!" Then he dies, and I facepalm.

-Personally, I'm pretty good at surviving in it. I just play safe in Monado Shield... while emphasizing shielding as most grabs don't have the power to kill Shield Shulk. If I make a mistake and the person grabs me through the shield, it's usually not such a bad thing. Generally, the only thing that will kill Shield Shulk is a smash attack, which is easy to see coming. This is benefited by the fact Shield Shulk has a very strong Shield/fast regeneration.

-Also, I stay away from the edge, unless if I'm trying to keep space for my reaction time. The other way to kill Shield Shulk is off-stage carries.

-Quickest movement option is rolling for if I'm trying to meet the opponent when he lands back on the ground.

-Yeah, I agree to stay out of the air as Shield Shulk. Opt for shielding rather than jumping.

-Something that I haven't seen mentioned is shielding projectiles in Monado Shield still has the benefit to us of staling opponents' moves and removing freshness. With our strong shields/fast shield regeneration, we are benefiting more than they are from them whipping their projectiles at us. Also, if their attacks are doing less damage because of staling, then it will become easier for your shield while in Monado Shield as they continue to waste the moves.

-Monado Jump / Monado Shield combo at high percents is great. Jump is very safe if you are looking to avoid damage or knockback. Opponents just can't follow you up there. However, you don't need to be jumping around, dodging everything (what some call lame). You can use it in a mix between offense and defense. Maybe make them overly aggressive by dodging stuff or jumping around over their heads, then take advantage of that built aggression. Or, just be super unpredictable while being offensive with Jump. I wouldn't actually recommend ONLY dodging stuff, as that gets predictable and easy to take care of. Leave them questioning what you are going to do. Eventually, deactivate Jump to go back to Shield.

-If you kill somebody while in Monado Shield, immediately deactivate the art and go to Jump. As they are respawning, Jump (EDIT: SHIELD) will already be going through its cooldown, and Monado Jump will make it easy to avoid the person while they are on their respawn invincibility. Just make sure not to underestimate the amount of time they are invincible (like I always tend to do lol.)
edit: However, if you just activated monado shield before getting the kill, then you might as well stay in it.

-If you are not already, get good at very quickly switching from Shield to Jump (4 presses) and from Jump to Shield (6 presses). Going from Shield to Jump is great if you have an opportunity for an off-stage kill or directly after killing the person. Jump to Shield is good for when you know Shield is available and you are still in Monado Jump, and want to switch back to shield while at a great time for it. Situations like that are after jumping high in the air with Monado Jump, after being hit upwards but not killed by an enemy attack, after hitting the opponent away, and etc. The faster you are at switching between the two, the less window there is where you are in the less safe (Vanilla Shulk).

-Often, switching to Monado Jump after being hit away in Monado Shield is not necessary... especially if using Advancing Air Slash. You may want to hold onto that Monado Art. Knowing when to and when not to switch to Jump can be hard, and depends on who you are facing, so this comes with experience and knowing what your opponent can/will do.

-Sometimes, it is necessary to switch out of Monado Shield when being juggled. Make sure to do so when you have your air jump still. Otherwise, you very well might be killed by an up smash or something. If you can air dodge while activating Monado Jump or Monado Speed on the ground, that helps.

edit: Mistake in the part about deactivating monado shield after a successful kill. Shield will be on its cooldown. Also added that if you just put on monado shield before the kill, you might as well keep it on.

 

[kenniky]

-Quickest movement option is rolling for if I'm trying to meet the opponent when he lands back on the ground.

I definitely agree with this, even though too much rolling is obviously a bad thing, Shulk's rolls are the same afaik in Shield, so they cover the same amount of distance. Using rolls to approach a little from far away is a lot faster than running.

Also slow walk messes them up psychologically, I know someone who once said that the slow walk + perfect shielding that I was doing with Shield was intimidating lol. Knowing that a superfat lightsaber wielder is walking toward you ominously can really mess up the opponent if they're not that good.

 

[erico9001]

Against opponents with damaging recovery moves, I have been thinking of running to the edge and using Vision right after I reach it. Has anybody been doing this? Any thoughts on it?

 

[Maple42]

Assuming that they haven't reached the ledge, Vision would potentially horizontally gimp them without their second jump (or simply KO them, in the case of Power Vision). I could see it being useful against Zero Suit Samus, Marth, Lucina, Ike, Charizard, and opposing Shulk.
It definitely holds promise for Jump becomes predictable for edgeguarding.

 

[Zatchiel]

Against opponents with damaging recovery moves, I have been thinking of running to the edge and using Vision right after I reach it. Has anybody been doing this? Any thoughts on it?

Might want to provide some examples, since "damaging recovery moves" is kinda vague. Captain Falcon's up B (without customs) can do damage but will never ever activate Vision.

In general, I think edgeguarding with Vision is less efficient than some of our other options, in certain contexts. Run -> Vision works great in Speed though.

Assuming that they haven't reached the ledge, Vision would potentially horizontally gimp them without their second jump (or simply KO them, in the case of Power Vision).

Against most recoveries Vision will actually be worse for gimping than f-air or maybe even tipper b-air. The trajectory is extremely lenient. All you have to do is hold up towards a corner of the screen.

I could see it being useful against Zero Suit Samus, Marth, Lucina, Ike, Charizard, and opposing Shulk.
It definitely holds promise for Jump becomes predictable for edgeguarding.

I'll ask you to elaborate on how it's useful against Zero Suit's recovery. If you're talking about using it against her Flip Jump, even Forward Vision whiffs against that.

Marth and Lucina can both auto-sweetspot, so countering the hitbox that extends ever-so-slightly above the ledge when they do it just leaves Shulk wide open.

Vision is okay against the recoveries of Ike and Shulk. Not outstanding like angled f-smash though. Against Shulk I'd usually just go for a d-air gimp if possible, but if he's likely to panic airdodge I'll just bait and punish depending on my art. We can completely trash Ike's Aether with a number of options. His Quickdraw is what you should counter, since it stops him in midair upon collision. Because of that fact even Vision in the air connects reliably.

 

[Maple42]

Ah.... The ledge invincibility is a problem. However, there is a singular frame in which the opponent is vulnerable when ledge snapping; unfortunately, Vision is probably not fast enough to catch that.
For ZSS, I was talking about her Rocket Boots; that snaps to the ledge quickly as well, so....

 

[AlvisCPU]

Against opponents with damaging recovery moves, I have been thinking of running to the edge and using Vision right after I reach it. Has anybody been doing this? Any thoughts on it?

I can see it being really situational... because I can also see it going really bad, really quick. The number of times I've ledge-jumped then Visioned to my death... if the Vision isn't activated and you don't land on-stage, the animation lasts so long that you'll likely just fall so low that you can't recover. If they're recovering low, it's probably not ideal without Jump, and even then...

I've had a few good Visions off recoveries. Like, against a Dedede who kept lining up his up-B to just land on-stage at the peak of his jump, and against a Greninja-playing friend of mine who likes to Shadow Sneak recover because you can't see the shadow. Or Jigglypuff Rollout, or Ness' PK Thunder self-hit thing. But the thing is, it's always been when they player isn't going for the ledge. I can stand at the end of the stage and predict the movement. Trying to Vision someone who is aiming for the ledge would be very ballsy, I think. You'd probably get the kill if it hit, though. I don't think it's worth the risk to utilise, but I think if you wanted to, you'd need to have a good grasp for how far you'll fall if they don't hit you.

--------------------------------------
I don't really want to jump the conversation backwards, but I've sorted out what I wanted to ask about my Arts usage to you guys. I recently participated in a tourney that was streamed, and like anyone wanting to improve, I watched it back. I noticed that the players that acted as commentators seemed quite critical of my Arts usage. As I respect the opinions of other local players, especially those with equal or higher skill than mine (who these guys were), I now find myself doubting what I do and when. All that said, none of them main Shulk, so I'm not sure which criticisms were valid and which were just because they don't know the character. Hearing the thoughts of Shulk players would be great.

I'll try to keep these questions broad so that others may learn from answers, not just me.

- At what % are you on when you find activating Smash Art to be too risky?
- Maybe I don't understand how much the Rage Effect scales knockback, but how do you guys factor it in to Shulks playstyle? I've noticed I don't even consider my own Rage until right after I get a Shield Vision or Buster kill, so I'm not quite sure how to correctly utilise it. Shulk's kill moves are laggy so it's risky when you're on a high %.
- When the opponent is on a high%, would you consider Jump + edgeguarding as equally threatening as Smash?
- What do you think about using Speed against fast characters? Does it let you keep up, or are you still going to get outpaced?
- What do you think of Shield mode usage when you're losing?

Obviously a lot of these are dependent on the match-up and opponent, but it would be great if I could get some thoughts.

Spoiler: The criticisms the questions come from

Worth noting that they did say good things too, but these are the ones I want to learn from.

For a bit of context on my playstyle, I tend to play my stocks based on combo potential (Speed low%, Buster mid%, maybe Jump mid/high%, Smash high%, Shield when I'm at high%). As silly as it sounds to say, it means I usually won't swap up the strategy if I'm up or down stocks. Leads to some cases where I should really forcing myself to extend my lead, or claw my way back, but I'm not.

Structured as so:
Art activated.
Opponent % (Opponent Stock) / My % (My Stock)
[Commentator comments]
(Any comments from me.)

vs.
Stage: Battlefield

(Vanilla)
93%(2) / 55%(2)
"He's at kill % if he goes into Smash mode."

Speed
0%(1) / 87%(2)
"AlvisCPU does like going into Speed when he has a % lead."
(As I mention I tend to play combo-based - I went Speed because he's on 0%.)

(Vanilla)
12(1) / 108%(2)
"I wouldn't be surprised if he goes into Shield mode now."
"Eh, I wouldn't do it personally. You should go for all the damage you can once you have a stock lead."

Stage: Duck Hunt

Speed
0%(2) / 0%(2)
"AlvisCPU does enjoy Speed form to start off, plays that real rushdown game. Which I don't think that's going to be very good against Fox."
(Again, because he's on 0%.)

----

vs.
Stage: Omega Windy Hill Zone
(Worth noting that I played 200% horribly here. So many Visions and Smash attacks thrown out in a panic.)

Speed
0%(1) / 99%(2)
"Gone into Speed mode there, an interesting option, you're a bit lighter in Speed mode."
(lol no. Anyway, again, 0% means Speed for me, unless I want to try some Buster shenanigans.)

(Vanilla)
77%(1) / 122%(1)
"If he goes into Smash mode, it'd probably be a kill with Rage."
(Where my Rage question comes from. 77%, even with Smash, I wouldn't have thought a mid-stage Smash attack would've killed. Maybe I don't know Smash well enough, but even then I hadn't factored in Rage.)

Jump
90%(1) / 122%(1)
"Jump?! AlvisCPU chose Jump there, that's an interesting option."
"Going by the cries I heard, I don't think that was... intentional."
(I was going for an edgeguard but he made it back too quick. That's what my "cry" was about.)

Speed
90%(1) / 122%(1)
"Going into... Speed?!"
"That's an interesting one when you're trying to seal the kill..."
"He's just running around at the speed of sound. He's got places to go, gotta follow his rainbow."
"An interesting choice this late in the match, I probably wouldn't recommend it. But I'm not a Shulk main, so..."
(I was on a very high% so didn't want to use Smash. I thought using Speed to get them off-stage then edgeguarding would be best. Maybe I should've just manned up and used Smash, I ended up running into a dSmash and losing.)

 

[Berserker.]

@ AlvisCPU

Remember what they said about commentators being mostly dumb and borderline nauseating? YEAH. Lol

 

[AlvisCPU]

@ AlvisCPU

Remember what they said about commentators being mostly dumb and borderline nauseating? YEAH. Lol

I don't remember that, but I do understand it I'm just trying to pick out useful bits, and it gave me some stuff to consider.

 

[Berserker.]

- At what % are you on when you find activating Smash Art to be too risky?
- Maybe I don't understand how much the Rage Effect scales knockback, but how do you guys factor it in to Shulks playstyle? I've noticed I don't even consider my own Rage until right after I get a Shield Vision or Buster kill, so I'm not quite sure how to correctly utilise it. Shulk's kill moves are laggy so it's risky when you're on a high %.
- When the opponent is on a high%, would you consider Jump + edgeguarding as equally threatening as Smash?
- What do you think about using Speed against fast characters? Does it let you keep up, or are you still going to get outpaced?
- What do you think of Shield mode usage when you're losing?

- Smash art is risky to use at 70-75%+ but if you feel like you can risk it then go ahead
- You don't kill with buster rage. Rage allows your attacks to be safer on hit at earlier percentages. Rage effect is much more noticeable with vision (even at shield) so I can understand why you'd only consider rage when that comes into mind. Taking advantage of rage mode really comes down to being careful (because you're trying to not get killed) and making right reads imo. Any read with shield or smash art at a certain percentage can allow you to snatch the game from your opponent with a huge amount of rage
- Speed art is good for anything
- You shouldn't ever use shield art when you're down. If anything, go speed or buster

 

[kenniky]

"But I'm not a Shulk main, so..."

key words

Generally commentators don't know a whole lot about characters they don't use, especially one as technical as Shulk. I remember back in the 3DS days cringing at commentators saying like "speed is lighter" or "you take more damage in smash" or "smash makes you lighter than jigglypuff" (iirc you're about Peach weight in Smash)

Also Shulk has a bunch of ways he can be played, so just do whatever fits your style I guess

 

[Maple42]

I'd like to clarify the use of Smash and Shield, since I feel they are the most misused Arts.
Smash shouldn't be used when you're both at high percentages; this literally doesn't change the situation, except making it more dangerous for both parties. In that case, the outcome depends on solely outplaying the opponent, which.... Is the exact same thing as before. The goal of the Monado Arts is to put yourself at an advantage, which Smash doesn't do in a mutually high percentage situation.
Shield, on the other hand, has two purposes; dragging out a stock, and getting out of combos. It'd be more appropriate to change to Shield in the former situation of high percent / high percent, as that will give you the advantage, since you have rage and they need to work a lot harder to KO you.

 

[FOcast]

I'd like to clarify the use of Smash and Shield, since I feel they are the most misused Arts.
Smash shouldn't be used when you're both at high percentages; this literally doesn't change the situation, except making it more dangerous for both parties. In that case, the outcome depends on solely outplaying the opponent, which.... Is the exact same thing as before. The goal of the Monado Arts is to put yourself at an advantage, which Smash doesn't do in a mutually high percentage situation.

This is usually accurate, but it's an oversimplification. Just because you and your opponent are both at high % doesn't mean there is no advantage to capitalize on. Often when opponents are at high %, Nairs and Fairs will send them far offstage into disadvantageous positions. This can be a great time to switch to Smash mode, even if you are at a high % for several reasons.

First, when you have stage control, you are in a much better position to get hits at all. You can pressure them while they're recovering, and then pressure them as they are landing or getting up from the ledge. Then, you can abuse your range by cornering them at the ledge if you can manage to hold onto that position. Even if the opponent does manage to land a stray hit as they are trying to reset to neutral, that hit will likely send you towards the opposite side of the stage, which will still be quite far away.

Secondly, Smash art amplifies the effects of rage. In high-pressure situations, you're much more likely to get chances to hit with Fair and Nair, and the combination of Smash art and rage allows these moves to kill outright at reasonable %s.

Obviously, all of this is matchup dependent. Don't do this against Ness for example, because getting kills from gimping or punishing his recovery is much easier, and getting caught in a grab when Ness' back is to the ledge is super risky.

 

[Masonomace]

Now, as a question, what percentages do you guys think activating Shield art is most effective? Perhaps I was doing wrong in activating it too late.

Imo, cycling to & activating Shield at early percentages & late percentages are when the Art's most effective. Now, I'd understand & relate with if you disagree because Smash Bros. is very key with positioning & mobility, which are things Shield Shulk does not possess in fact he's obviously the slowest character in that regard. But there are early combos via throws that lead into an aerial, tilt, or a smash attack, & Shield Shulk reducing hit-stun on top of his higher Defense & Weight can expose those early combos with a move to punish them in retaliation. It is also character-dependent too.

Even if you only tack on 5% before dying, that's 5% more than you had before. If the MU often leads to timeouts, surviving 30-40 seconds more on your first stock with alternating Shield and Buster (maybe even Jump or Speed for hit-and-runs or hit-and-jumps) can turn the tides in your favour.

This reminds me that I played against a good Sheik player in FG who went by the tag "Paint" & one of our matches ended up going to time-out. What happened? -- The 10 seconds remaining ended with me activating Shield & during those last seconds, I traded taking a hit & dealt damage back to him ending with me having less percent which by tournament rules I would of won, but eh I lost in Sudden Death. That was the good stuff

I've also been trying to incorporate more crouching into my gameplay as of late, especially considering just how good it is in Shield for reducing hit stun. I'm trying to make it a habit of crouching whenever I'm not doing anything else, even if just for how it looks like I'm planning something. Has anybody else found it worthwhile to sometimes just crouch instead of moving too much? Or am I being careless?

I like this. Crouching + Shield is a great thing if you know you're going to get hit. Moments I think of are when you want to fall to the floor & Vision counter but you only crouch instead while taking a hit makes you survive for even longer. However, an issue with crouching is the different types of flinching that happens. The tests I was doing with Buster Shulk's on-hit safety (this is still going on & I could use help with this too btw <3 <3) with & without the character crouching against the attacks lead to interesting results. For one, if a character crouched against certain moves, it'd be worse to crouch than not crouching at all since the character will slide across the floor performing a kneeling flinch animation. The obvious second result would be the crouching character reduces knockback & recovered quick enough from it to punish with a Dash Attack or something. So yeah.

Disclaimer: Depends on match-up.

I love Monado Shield at both early and late percents. A part of me gets upset when I watch Shulks who disregard the art at high percents, instead opting for Monado Speed. I will confess to shouting at my screen: "Go to Monado Shield! Go to Monado Shield! Why aren't you going to Monado Shield?! AGH!" Then he dies, and I facepalm.

-Personally, I'm pretty good at surviving in it. I just play safe in Monado Shield... while emphasizing shielding as most grabs don't have the power to kill Shield Shulk. If I make a mistake and the person grabs me through the shield, it's usually not such a bad thing. Generally, the only thing that will kill Shield Shulk is a smash attack, which is easy to see coming. This is benefited by the fact Shield Shulk has a very strong Shield/fast regeneration.

Nevah! Shield is never avoided in any character MU!

Ah, so you too like Shield at early & late %. I dig this but we do play matches frequently so I would think to know this already. So yeah, most if not every Throw move that possesses KO potential will normally never take Shield Shulk's stock given that the Shield Shulk player has stellar survival DI & deactivates the Art IMMEDIATELY after they're launched to avoid the opposing edge-guarding (Unless a Smash Art involved, I don't see Shield Shulk dying to any throw let alone Hyper Shield Shulk, 'cus that guy is heavy-broken). After Shield's deactivated in mid-launch, cycling to Jump ASAP & inputting an aerial followed by FastFalling does wonders & happens so fast that the opponent may not even react to it that quickly. Also, something interesting I realized albeit unneeded is using Vision after hit-stun finishes to semi-momentum-cancel our launch speed, but the usage behind this isn't that high. Another thing, if you were to deactivate Shield asap & cycle to another Art OR choose to not deactivate Shield, no matter how quickly Shield is deactivated, the hit-stun received during the launch doesn't change. This means that it's safe to deactivate Shield asap during launch without the worry that you'd gain Vanilla Shulk's weight, which is a neat feature that's similar in fashion to deactivating a Jump or Speed Art & still holding towards a direction to maintain their respected air speed drifting.

-Also, I stay away from the edge, unless if I'm trying to keep space for my reaction time. The other way to kill Shield Shulk is off-stage carries.

Agreed. Shield Shulk can easily be compared to as Little Mac minus the terrible air speed drifting & the only remedy to this situation in case it does occur, is to keep holding up / diagonally up after every hit that strings together carrying us out & try to or not to try performing a panic option like FAir or Vision. If Jump is on cooldown, you better know how to mash B 5x for that emergency Speed Art save.

-Quickest movement option is rolling for if I'm trying to meet the opponent when he lands back on the ground.

If only Dash Attack had low endlag so that it'd be our supreme movement option, ah well. To add to this, an alternate way of travel is heavily repeated Dashing to shielding. From holding the control stick in the direction we dash toward to, our shield is directed in front of us for that automatic Shield DI. And a previous point you've brought up before, Shield Shulk's bubble shield being larger on top of the increased shield regeneration allows us to abuse this option to the max.

-Yeah, I agree to stay out of the air as Shield Shulk. Opt for shielding rather than jumping.

Staying out of the air is more advantageous & I do agree that acting with our bubble shield is generally better & safer, but staying out of the air removes my ideal usage of RAR SH NAirs. The bad air speed favors my RAR or no RAR SH aerials because I don't drift too far apart from the opponent since I like to stay close enough to space with the Beam portion of my attacks especially NAir.

-Often, switching to Monado Jump after being hit away in Monado Shield is not necessary... especially if using Advancing Air Slash. You may want to hold onto that Monado Art. Knowing when to and when not to switch to Jump can be hard, and depends on who you are facing, so this comes with experience and knowing what your opponent can/will do.

I dig it. Another thing to do for the occasion not to deactivate Shield is a rare yet useful moment per-say the opponent will use their projectile to harass you off-stage. This can be answered with any Vision counter but Dash Vision works the best especially when Shield is active because apparently the Shield Arts do not affect Dash Vision's movement / distance traveled while dashing forward in the air, which is fantastic . You do experience Shield's bad air speed after Dash Vision's endlag finishes though.

Warning: Not every projectile can be countered with Vision Dash Vision or Power Vision, but enough of the projectiles you'd expect to harass you like Zelda's Dins Fire or Ness' PK Fire can be countered thankfully.

Against opponents with damaging recovery moves, I have been thinking of running to the edge and using Vision right after I reach it. Has anybody been doing this? Any thoughts on it?

Assuming that they haven't reached the ledge, Vision would potentially horizontally gimp them without their second jump (or simply KO them, in the case of Power Vision). I could see it being useful against Zero Suit Samus, Marth, Lucina, Ike, Charizard, and opposing Shulk.
It definitely holds promise for Jump becomes predictable for edgeguarding.

Running to the edge & inputting Vision is a decent option to try, but that's only if they don't grab the ledge first by snapping to the ledge which will leave you open to being punished unless they're hasty & don't think about Power Vision's ridiculously long counter frame window or something along those regards. Dash Vision would gimp much more effectively though if not KOing them alike Vision & Power Vision. And Erico you know I'd do this to any Shulk that recovers unsafely with Air Slash . Like Zatch mentioned, Speed Shulk running to the ledge from afar & using Vision sounds like hotness. And like he also mentioned, not every damaging hit-box recovery will be punished by the Visions but that's something to experiment with for future MU discussions.

And to note this, Forwarding the Vision counter will never hit the opposing character grabbing the ledge unless they overextend themselves not grabbing the ledge & end up behind us somehow.

- At what % are you on when you find activating Smash Art to be too risky?
- Maybe I don't understand how much the Rage Effect scales knockback, but how do you guys factor it in to Shulks playstyle? I've noticed I don't even consider my own Rage until right after I get a Shield Vision or Buster kill, so I'm not quite sure how to correctly utilise it. Shulk's kill moves are laggy so it's risky when you're on a high %.
- When the opponent is on a high%, would you consider Jump + edgeguarding as equally threatening as Smash?
- What do you think about using Speed against fast characters? Does it let you keep up, or are you still going to get outpaced?
- What do you think of Shield mode usage when you're losing?

- I find it risky activating & keeping Smash active when I feel I'm fishing too hard for the KO or if I have the strange unsettling feeling I cannot secure the KO with the risk I put on myself. For a % example, I'd say above 80% is stretching it. The risk with me playing as Smash Shulk is that it naturally creates the unsafe feeling using most if not all of his moves except for grabs given you're not being fishy & open about 'em.
- I don't quite use the Rage that effectively since I'm still adjusting to it to this day, & Shield naturally stockpiles Rage which is ironic for me. Generally though, Rage could improve our UThrow enough to actually follow up the throw with Jump Shulk's Air Slash, or perhaps increases the possibility that Buster Shulk BThrowing can lead to Back Slash at a mid-low %. Anyways, like Berserker mentioned, moves become safer on-hit which favors Buster Shulk the most.
- Yes. Jump Speed & Smash can be threatening aside from Speed reducing our doublejump's height. Generally we would say that Jump is more threatening because being very aggro off-stage with Jump allows us to immediately Full Hop from the stage's floor & hunt them early while they're still visible from the magnifying glass. We could be so threatening that we'd force them to throw an option out per-say they have a Counterattack move, or they airdodge & we wait patiently for that FAir to follow afterwards. Drifting backwards is advised & never FastFall unless you conserved your Jump Shulk's doublejump.
- Meh, I find that Speed helps to an extent, but Speed doesn't change Shulk's frame data so it can still be a stalemate. The speed used to position ourselves in so many areas of the stage can do work but I find myself using Shield more for fast characters.
- This varies with many Shulk players I imagine. I think that using Shield when I'm losing is normally going to be turned away from because there's better options to go about it, but if you're desperately behind? I don't mind it even though that sounds questioning I'm sure. Shield can act as an anchor meanwhile your certain Art(s) are on cooldown, & not dying is a good thing after all.

EDIT:

I'd like to clarify the use of Smash and Shield, since I feel they are the most misused Arts.
Smash shouldn't be used when you're both at high percentages; this literally doesn't change the situation, except making it more dangerous for both parties. In that case, the outcome depends on solely outplaying the opponent, which.... Is the exact same thing as before. The goal of the Monado Arts is to put yourself at an advantage, which Smash doesn't do in a mutually high percentage situation.
Shield, on the other hand, has two purposes; dragging out a stock, and getting out of combos. It'd be more appropriate to change to Shield in the former situation of high percent / high percent, as that will give you the advantage, since you have rage and they need to work a lot harder to KO you.

I'd opt to use Smash if it meant I had the lead & could potentially seal my opponent's stocks, unless you meant to say that we're both at high % and equal stocks then I'd agree. Something I'm realizing about Smash Arts especially Decisive Smash is when both my opponent & I are at low %, and I get the first FAir to connect, usually I can follow with another FAir given I'm drifting to chase them. Smash Arts can seal a stock through gimping the player at very early percentages which is heavily favored for the characters with mediocre or flat-out bad recovery. Not only that, Smash Shulk or the custom Smash Arts for that matter can escape out of multi-hit Jab combos or from a two-hit attack such as Link's FSmash as well as Shulk's FSmash when we ourselves are at a high %. Putting ourselves in a bad position in order to lead the opponent on the notion they could KO us could lead to their downfall if we decided to jump up & FF down with a BAir to blast their future away.

About your points on Shield, I humbly agree.

 

[erico9001]

Against opponents with damaging recovery moves, I have been thinking of running to the edge and using Vision right after I reach it. Has anybody been doing this? Any thoughts on it?

Might want to provide some examples, since "damaging recovery moves" is kinda vague. Captain Falcon's up B (without customs) can do damage but will never ever activate Vision.

In general, I think edgeguarding with Vision is less efficient than some of our other options, in certain contexts. Run -> Vision works great in Speed though.


Against most recoveries Vision will actually be worse for gimping than f-air or maybe even tipper b-air. The trajectory is extremely lenient. All you have to do is hold up towards a corner of the screen.


I'll ask you to elaborate on how it's useful against Zero Suit's recovery. If you're talking about using it against her Flip Jump, even Forward Vision whiffs against that.

Marth and Lucina can both auto-sweetspot, so countering the hitbox that extends ever-so-slightly above the ledge when they do it just leaves Shulk wide open.

Vision is okay against the recoveries of Ike and Shulk. Not outstanding like angled f-smash though. Against Shulk I'd usually just go for a d-air gimp if possible, but if he's likely to panic airdodge I'll just bait and punish depending on my art. We can completely trash Ike's Aether with a number of options. His Quickdraw is what you should counter, since it stops him in midair upon collision. Because of that fact even Vision in the air connects reliably.

Running to the edge & inputting Vision is a decent option to try, but that's only if they don't grab the ledge first by snapping to the ledge which will leave you open to being punished unless they're hasty & don't think about Power Vision's ridiculously long counter frame window or something along those regards. Dash Vision would gimp much more effectively though if not KOing them alike Vision & Power Vision. And Erico you know I'd do this to any Shulk that recovers unsafely with Air Slash . Like Zatch mentioned, Speed Shulk running to the ledge from afar & using Vision sounds like hotness. And like he also mentioned, not every damaging hit-box recovery will be punished by the Visions but that's something to experiment with for future MU discussions.

And to note this, Forwarding the Vision counter will never hit the opposing character grabbing the ledge unless they overextend themselves not grabbing the ledge & end up behind us somehow.

Assuming that they haven't reached the ledge, Vision would potentially horizontally gimp them without their second jump (or simply KO them, in the case of Power Vision). I could see it being useful against Zero Suit Samus, Marth, Lucina, Ike, Charizard, and opposing Shulk.
It definitely holds promise for Jump becomes predictable for edgeguarding.

Oops, I need to clarify. What I am thinking of is running off the ledge, and then using my counter. Sorry for not wording that so clearly (@ AlvisCPU understood though ).

Vision stops vertical/horizontal movement when used in the air. What I imagine is running just off the edge, using vision, and then Shulk just slowly falling down, near the stage. As he falls, his hurtbox is blocking the edge, so any characters that have damaging recovery move without command grabs (@ Zatchiel ) would activate Vision.

Some characters I am imagining using this against are Fox, Falco, Shulk, Mario, Ness, etc.

If it whiffs, I know that you should be able to recover. You need to use your air jump to recover with AAS, though. Hopefully, vision would slow the opponent down enough so that it hitsbefore they reach the edge and grab on. However, I'm not sure about recovering if Vision activates.

 

[notyourparadigm]

If it whiffs, I know that you should be able to recover. You need to use your air jump to recover with AAS, though. Hopefully, vision would slow the opponent down enough so that it hitsbefore they reach the edge and grab on. However, I'm not sure about recovering if Vision activates.

That last bit is the reason I'm not immediately drawn to the idea. Coupled with the fact that aerial vision is so unreliable in terms of hitting the attacker, landing the counter might be swinging right by the recovering opponent and falling gently to our doom. I don't think it will be as viable of an option as Lucina and Marth's off-stage counter.

But of course, before we make a conclusion, we must test. To the lab!

I like this. Crouching + Shield is a great thing if you know you're going to get hit. Moments I think of are when you want to fall to the floor & Vision counter but you only crouch instead while taking a hit makes you survive for even longer. However, an issue with crouching is the different types of flinching that happens. The tests I was doing with Buster Shulk's on-hit safety (this is still going on & I could use help with this too btw <3 <3) with & without the character crouching against the attacks lead to interesting results. For one, if a character crouched against certain moves, it'd be worse to crouch than not crouching at all since the character will slide across the floor performing a kneeling flinch animation. The obvious second result would be the crouching character reduces knockback & recovered quick enough from it to punish with a Dash Attack or something. So yeah.

Oooh, I'm curious about this research of yours. Care to share more specifics? I don't know if I can help without a WiiU at the moment, but this sounds quite important for safer Buster use.

 

[Zatchiel]

- At what % are you on when you find activating Smash Art to be too risky?
- Maybe I don't understand how much the Rage Effect scales knockback, but how do you guys factor it in to Shulks playstyle? I've noticed I don't even consider my own Rage until right after I get a Shield Vision or Buster kill, so I'm not quite sure how to correctly utilise it. Shulk's kill moves are laggy so it's risky when you're on a high %.
- When the opponent is on a high%, would you consider Jump + edgeguarding as equally threatening as Smash?
- What do you think about using Speed against fast characters? Does it let you keep up, or are you still going to get outpaced?
- What do you think of Shield mode usage when you're losing?

Obviously a lot of these are dependent on the match-up and opponent, but it would be great if I could get some thoughts.

1. Depends largely on the match-up. Some characters can't kill all that well and rely on gimps to get the job done. But we have Jump art. Regardless, at our normal death percents, you're still only at real risk against your opponent's usual kill options. Everything else will just be setting up ledgeguards or juggles as they would otherwise. But since Shulk becomes so light I would begin to worry about the use of Smash art at around 70%, typically.

2. Build up rage with Shield art and abuse it with Jump, Speed, or Smash.

3. I don't really understand the question. Both can be plenty threatening if the opponent is offstage.

4. An increase in movement speed can't hurt at all unless we allow it to. If the opponent is using someone faster than us it doesn't undermine that fact. If anything we can mimic certain tactics in neutral that we can't do in any other art. We can keep up in terms of movement, but most players don't forget that we're still slow as molasses when it comes to attacking.

5. What do you mean? A stock deficit? A percent deficit? Doesn't really matter at all in the grand scheme of things. If Shield wasn't working out when you used it earlier it'd be silly to think it'd work out favorably while you're behind. On the other hand, if it worked out fine earlier then evidence would tell you it's not a bad idea to use it again.

Oops, I need to clarify. What I am thinking of is running off the ledge, and then using my counter. Sorry for not wording that so clearly (@ AlvisCPU understood though ).

Vision stops vertical/horizontal movement when used in the air. What I imagine is running just off the edge, using vision, and then Shulk just slowly falling down, near the stage. As he falls, his hurtbox is blocking the edge, so any characters that have damaging recovery move without command grabs (@ Zatchiel ) would activate Vision.

Some characters I am imagining using this against are Fox, Falco, Shulk, Mario, Ness, etc.

If it whiffs, I know that you should be able to recover. You need to use your air jump to recover with AAS, though. Hopefully, vision would slow the opponent down enough so that it hitsbefore they reach the edge and grab on. However, I'm not sure about recovering if Vision activates.

Ah, now I get it.

I concur with @ notyourparadigm for the most part. It's pretty risky since aerial Vision isn't so consistent. It could work against Fox and Falco's recoveries depending on the angle. I don't see it working against a proper Air Slash recovery, and an improper one is better punished with a smash attack or aerial. I don't know about Mario though. I sorta doubt it.

It wrecks Ness if he doesn't sweetspot the ledge. Don't aim to counter PKT2 during the first few frames unless he's pretty far offstage. Vision will whiff in that case but Ness's distance on the PKT2 launch will be shortened severely. If he's close enough to grab the ledge you'll just be in a bad position. If he launches far enough for you to counter the later frames of PKT2 you definitely should go out there and counter.

 

[AlvisCPU]

3. I don't really understand the question. Both can be plenty threatening if the opponent is offstage.

I get really apprehensive at using Smash because of the drawbacks, in addition to it screaming your intentions to the opponent. So sometimes I find myself tossing up between using Jump or Smash, wasn't sure if one was consistently better than the other in certain situations. My own thoughts would be that Smash would be better than Jump if you're at low %, because of the damage risk that Jump brings. When both at high%s probably best to go Jump if Shield's out. As Maple42 said, nothing to gain from Smash if you're both in each other's kill range anyway. I reckon it'd depend on the match-ups too. If they're already offstage then probably Jump > Smash, but maybe Smash if you're not going deep for the edgeguard?.

On erico9001's Vision Edgeguarding, I imagine this has the potential to be huge, but it would need an equally huge amount of testing and understanding from the player. Thinking it through, you'd need to know

• What characters it works against
  • At which recovery approach angles it works
• Whether you need to face towards or away from the stage for it to connect
  • If hitting towards the stage, evaluate the risk of them teching the stage and hitting you in return
• How far you'll fall if the Vision fails, if the Vision misses and if the Vision hits
• How far you'll drift away from the stage if the Vision goes ahead.

From rewatching the matches I had, I get the feeling that the active art may affect the horizontal drifting distance (and maybe hitbox) on an aerial Vision. Because I pulled off an aerial Vision in Jump mode and from memory I missed and slid across over half of Duck Hunt. Was hit near the ground below the left tree, nearly landed under the right. Not sure if it's already been confirmed as a thing or not.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Found something really... interesting with Shulk dittos on Battlefield.

Only works at 0% - 15%. Under a Battlefield platform in the sides, do an Up-throw to a fellow Shulk to realize that the mate ends up standing on his feet on the top.

What's even more weird? This only works at 1x speed , Yeaaaaah slowmo just screws it up and he receives knockback from up throw. Watch till the very end to see when I change the speed and reset %s

Explanation needed.

 

[Berserker.]

Found something really... interesting with Shulk dittos on Battlefield.

Only works at 0% - 15%. Under a Battlefield platform in the sides, do an Up-throw to a fellow Shulk to realize that the mate ends up standing on his feet on the top.

What's even more weird? This only works at 1x speed , Yeaaaaah slowmo just screws it up and he receives knockback from up throw. Watch till the very end to see when I change the speed and reset %s

Explanation needed.

I will answer this in a while.

By answer, I meant ask someone else about it c:

Edit:

lol

I dunno why reduced speed makes it behave like that (slowing down the game makes funky things happen) but he just lands on the platform because the throw has next to no knockback at those percents and happens to place him in the perfect position for him to land instantly.

basically every character has a collision box at their feet that decides when you're landing (It was knees in melee and PM)

it's like a detector

it seems the uthrow does just enough knockback to put this detector just above the battlefield platform

 

[Zatchiel]

I get really apprehensive at using Smash because of the drawbacks, in addition to it screaming your intentions to the opponent. So sometimes I find myself tossing up between using Jump or Smash, wasn't sure if one was consistently better than the other in certain situations. My own thoughts would be that Smash would be better than Jump if you're at low %, because of the damage risk that Jump brings. When both at high%s probably best to go Jump if Shield's out. As Maple42 said, nothing to gain from Smash if you're both in each other's kill range anyway. I reckon it'd depend on the match-ups too. If they're already offstage then probably Jump > Smash, but maybe Smash if you're not going deep for the edgeguard?

The lowered defense doesn't really outweigh the benefit of Jump. If you end up in a combo while in Jump you can deactivate the art and still have as much kill potential as you had before, since that isn't affected between vanilla and Jump. You have more potential kill options to work with while Jump is active, but only in the case of aerial chases. So if you're concerned about risk, vanilla is safer than either Jump or Smash.

I don't think the claim of "nothing to gain from Smash" in that situation is accurate. Rage + Smash is remarkable when the opponent isn't at such high percents. Why wouldn't that hold true at higher percents? Our tools to kill are even more dangerous. It's risky business, but the reward of a kill is damn near guaranteed if we land a single hit. And Smash Air Slash is one of our most reliable killing tools.

If you get he opponent offstage and switch to Smash, you should just be ledgeguarding. Don't wait for them to make it back. Chase them off but don't overextend; you should never be overcommitting to a ledgeguard in the art. Stay near the ledge and use Air Slash or an aerial unless you think they are attempting to recover high.

 

[kenniky]

Found something really... interesting with Shulk dittos on Battlefield.

Only works at 0% - 15%. Under a Battlefield platform in the sides, do an Up-throw to a fellow Shulk to realize that the mate ends up standing on his feet on the top.

What's even more weird? This only works at 1x speed , Yeaaaaah slowmo just screws it up and he receives knockback from up throw. Watch till the very end to see when I change the speed and reset %s

Explanation needed.

slowmo affecting it doesn't seem all that weird. I remember trying to get a 999 combo in Brawl Training with Lucario's Aura Sphere charge.

if you put it at 1/4 speed the CPU would airdodge and break the combo

 

[notyourparadigm]

So here's my (rather poor quality, sorry) first impressions about the offstage vision as a tool for edge guarding that @ erico9001 brought up.

A brief summary of what I cover in the video, plus a few more notes:

Spoiler

• Fox And Falco are the best candidates for this, since they are quite vulnerable during the start-up time of their up special
• Doing this directly in front of the ledge does not work (unless you've ledge trumped them or something similar). The start-up time before Shulk swings the Monado means they'll still grab the ledge and have invincibility.
• You should be trying to hit them right before or a few moments after they start flaming, so they aren't moving when the counter activates and you should hit them.
• Countering on the outside of Fox/Falco can lead to stage spikes, which is more guaranteed to kill if they miss the tech, but of course can be teched.
• The tactic is best used in Jump, as you don't have to be afraid about recovering if you swing and miss. Missing here turns your edgeguard into their edgeguard.
• Make damn well sure you have your double jump. I found hopping off the stage the best way to pull this off since it gave me more time to wait for Fox to start his up-special than just falling off the stage.
• If you and your opponent go back and forth with missed edge guards and you keep trying to do the Vision counter, you will lose due to the active frame loss you will suffer from abusing Vision.
• Other characters who this may work on with quick testing include Link and Toon Link (timing has to be essentially a read since the move is faster upon start-up than Fox and Falco) and Bowser (easier than Link/Tink since he has a large hurtbox, and doesn't seem to consistently sweet-spot the ledge upon recovering)

What does everyone else think? And (aside from the obvious lack of capture card and good editing software) what should I do to improve if I ever did another little summary video like this?

 

[erico9001]

So here's my (rather poor quality, sorry) first impressions about the offstage vision as a tool for edge guarding that @ erico9001 brought up.

A brief summary of what I cover in the video, plus a few more notes:

Spoiler

• Fox And Falco are the best candidates for this, since they are quite vulnerable during the start-up time of their up special
• Doing this directly in front of the ledge does not work (unless you've ledge trumped them or something similar). The start-up time before Shulk swings the Monado means they'll still grab the ledge and have invincibility.
• You should be trying to hit them right before or a few moments after they start flaming, so they aren't moving when the counter activates and you should hit them.
• Countering on the outside of Fox/Falco can lead to stage spikes, which is more guaranteed to kill if they miss the tech, but of course can be teched.
• The tactic is best used in Jump, as you don't have to be afraid about recovering if you swing and miss. Missing here turns your edgeguard into their edgeguard.
• Make damn well sure you have your double jump. I found hopping off the stage the best way to pull this off since it gave me more time to wait for Fox to start his up-special than just falling off the stage.
• If you and your opponent go back and forth with missed edge guards and you keep trying to do the Vision counter, you will lose due to the active frame loss you will suffer from abusing Vision.
• Other characters who this may work on with quick testing include Link and Toon Link (timing has to be essentially a read since the move is faster upon start-up than Fox and Falco) and Bowser (easier than Link/Tink since he has a large hurtbox, and doesn't seem to consistently sweet-spot the ledge upon recovering)

What does everyone else think? And (aside from the obvious lack of capture card and good editing software) what should I do to improve if I ever did another little summary video like this?

Ah, oh well about Fox and Falco. I tried that with power vision as well, and it did not work. Neither did dash vision. But yeah, it's deadly if you counter the start up of his up B!

Dash Vision doesn't actually send you very far if activated in the air... so it seems viable for this strategy too.
Power Vision is also great.

Something to keep in mind about this strategy is you want to fall into the recovery, or you will miss. You need to be higher up, or you will fall too low below the recovery. Also, be sure to use the move far away from the edge if they snap to it (most do).

I'm testing all of these with power vision.

Works great against Ness. I am sure this kills at incredibly early percents. Even the time when I timed the counter to soon, since he hit the counter, his recovery distance was shortened.

Works deliciously against Donkey Kong. On FD in training mode, it kills him even before 70% damage.

Against Charizard, it can work if he recovers low. You might hit him during his super armor if you activate at the way start of his recovery move. If you activate near the end, you won't hit him, as he will grab the edge. Overall, it can work against Charizard, but it's hard.

It works well against Link if you use it high enough above him, otherwise he will get out of the way of the move. The other option is to use it behind him, as the sword spins around him. You will counter backwards and stage spike him. The same is true for Toon Link, but the lower range on his move makes it a bit harder to run into with the counter.

Works well against Samus if you are far enough from the edge.

I can't get the opportunity to test it against ZSS... Does not work for Marth, and you would want to gimp him with Fair anyways. No for Ike. Apparently he has super armor at the way start of his up B, and that is the only time it would work. It does not slow down Wii Fit Trainer at all. An off-stage counter on her soccer ball might work, though. Does not work on Mario. Does not work on Doctor Mario.

Works really well on Luigi's cyclone down B! Nice way to respond to Luigis recovering low. You might take 1 damage with minimal knockback, which ends the counter immediately after it hits him. This makes it even easier to recover. It works against Luigi's up B only at the top and if he does not snap the edge.

Excellent against Peach's umbrella. You might take 1% damage/tiny knockback.

The move is extremely good against Bowser's up B. When your counter hits him, you will take 3% damage/tiny knockback, like Luigi and Peach.

I am having a hard time testing against both Wario's up B and his bike. No idea. Can't get it to work against Game and Watch too.

Works against Little Mac's up B (he doesn't snap to the edge). Can work on his side B, but why not use Fair instead, as it does not require his hitbox to hit you

Meta Knight does not seem to work. Might work if he activates it at the loop he makes, but GL.

You cannot counter Yoshi's egg mid-air.

This works against Mii Brawler's piston punch. However, I don't feel like testing all the other miis and their recoveries.

So, power vision works against:
(piston punch)(probably)
Unsure about:

Also, unsure about custom recoveries. Probably works against any slower custom recoveries.

Edit: Also, vision does not slow down horizontal movement as well as I thought it did. Usually best if you jump off the stage.

Recovery is not an issue as long as you have your air jump. I was able to recover with just the first strike of advancing air slash.

 

[Neo Zero]

One thing I've been playing around with is ledge trumping. I'd like to hear what others think of it.

I've mainly been working on trumping the ledge right when they recover to it, then using the very few frames of commitment from a ledge trump done right away to reverse air slash. I had someone help me test it and I find especially in Smash I can kill really really early even without rage. It feels really solid.

 

[Berserker.]

One thing I've been playing around with is ledge trumping. I'd like to hear what others think of it.

I've mainly been working on trumping the ledge right when they recover to it, then using the very few frames of commitment from a ledge trump done right away to reverse air slash. I had someone help me test it and I find especially in Smash I can kill really really early even without rage. It feels really solid.

From the sound of it, it seems really solid. I still need to get my ledge trumping to reverse air slash correctly (circle pad johns )

Been toying around with MALLC again. I think I've been getting more benefits from abusing the invincibility. Sometimes when you act out of it, Shulk's bad frame data strikes and there's a small chance you'll get beaten to the punch by characters like Mario or Sheik (both characters have amazing frame data) despite the landing lag being cancelled.

 

[DavemanCozy]

If the opponent has a habit of holding on to the ledge for too long, then I think it would be great to abuse this.

Thing with ledge-trumping is that anyone who knows how to avoid it will avoid it. Reflex made a great video on ledge safety:

 

[erico9001]

One thing I've been playing around with is ledge trumping. I'd like to hear what others think of it.

I've mainly been working on trumping the ledge right when they recover to it, then using the very few frames of commitment from a ledge trump done right away to reverse air slash. I had someone help me test it and I find especially in Smash I can kill really really early even without rage. It feels really solid.

It is not new to this thread, but it can be useful. It is Shulk's best ledge trump option; however, the inputs can be tough. Advancing Air Slash will not be able to survive doing this, but ledge trumps don't occur often enough to make that much of a loss.

From the sound of it, it seems really solid. I still need to get my ledge trumping to reverse air slash correctly (circle pad johns )

Been toying around with MALLC again. I think I've been getting more benefits from abusing the invincibility. Sometimes when you act out of it, Shulk's bad frame data strikes and there's a small chance you'll get beaten to the punch by characters like Mario or Sheik (both characters have amazing frame data) despite the landing lag being cancelled.

Yeah, I need to get better at not moving out of a MALLC right away . I am not allowing for the invincibility frames, because it is habit for me to walk out of a landing on the ground.

 

[kenniky]

Ah, oh well about Fox and Falco. I tried that with power vision as well, and it did not work. Neither did dash vision. But yeah, it's deadly if you counter the start up of his up B!

Dash Vision doesn't actually send you very far if activated in the air... so it seems viable for this strategy too.
Power Vision is also great.

Something to keep in mind about this strategy is you want to fall into the recovery, or you will miss. You need to be higher up, or you will fall too low below the recovery. Also, be sure to use the move far away from the edge if they snap to it (most do).

I'm testing all of these with power vision.

Works great against Ness. I am sure this kills at incredibly early percents. Even the time when I timed the counter to soon, since he hit the counter, his recovery distance was shortened.

Works deliciously against Donkey Kong. On FD in training mode, it kills him even before 70% damage.

Against Charizard, it can work if he recovers low. You might hit him during his super armor if you activate at the way start of his recovery move. If you activate near the end, you won't hit him, as he will grab the edge. Overall, it can work against Charizard, but it's hard.

It works well against Link if you use it high enough above him, otherwise he will get out of the way of the move. The other option is to use it behind him, as the sword spins around him. You will counter backwards and stage spike him. The same is true for Toon Link, but the lower range on his move makes it a bit harder to run into with the counter.

Works well against Samus if you are far enough from the edge.

I can't get the opportunity to test it against ZSS... Does not work for Marth, and you would want to gimp him with Fair anyways. No for Ike. Apparently he has super armor at the way start of his up B, and that is the only time it would work. It does not slow down Wii Fit Trainer at all. An off-stage counter on her soccer ball might work, though. Does not work on Mario. Does not work on Doctor Mario.

Works really well on Luigi's cyclone down B! Nice way to respond to Luigis recovering low. You might take 1 damage with minimal knockback, which ends the counter immediately after it hits him. This makes it even easier to recover. It works against Luigi's up B only at the top and if he does not snap the edge.

Excellent against Peach's umbrella. You might take 1% damage/tiny knockback.

The move is extremely good against Bowser's up B. When your counter hits him, you will take 3% damage/tiny knockback, like Luigi and Peach.

I am having a hard time testing against both Wario's up B and his bike. No idea. Can't get it to work against Game and Watch too.

Works against Little Mac's up B (he doesn't snap to the edge). Can work on his side B, but why not use Fair instead, as it does not require his hitbox to hit you

Meta Knight does not seem to work. Might work if he activates it at the loop he makes, but GL.

You cannot counter Yoshi's egg mid-air.

This works against Mii Brawler's piston punch. However, I don't feel like testing all the other miis and their recoveries.

So, power vision works against:
(piston punch)(probably)
Unsure about:

Also, unsure about custom recoveries. Probably works against any slower custom recoveries.

Edit: Also, vision does not slow down horizontal movement as well as I thought it did. Usually best if you jump off the stage.

Recovery is not an issue as long as you have your air jump. I was able to recover with just the first strike of advancing air slash.

What about Ike? Does countering Quick Draw do anything? It seems like it would, given that Quick Draw stalls Ike for a second

tbh one of the things on my todo list is to gimp Ike with either the Substitute doll or Duck Hunt's Wild Gunmen