Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[DavemanCozy]

Whoa, holy crap Jerm with Jab cancels. Last time I saw this man in Toronto, he got destroyed by IceNinja's Palutena, now all of a sudden he's doing this stuff.

Tested it on 3DS, seems like Jab -> Jab 2 (crouch) works twice at most on every character, since Shulk stepping forward won't allow this to be an infinite. The jab combo should be completed on the second time, imo. Since shulk does step forward, this is also useful for positioning opponents closer to ledges..

 

[AnotherDerp]

Has BS's hitbox at the top ever been mentioned? It's very much impractical in normal play but I thought it was worth mentioning, if it hasn't been already.
I've only gotten at least 2 or 3 undeserved kills from this when I was playing a few casual matches with some friends when I BS'd them while they were returning to the stage above me.

 

[Berserker.]

Has BS's hitbox at the top ever been mentioned? It's very much impractical in normal play but I thought it was worth mentioning, if it hasn't been already.
I've only gotten at least 2 or 3 undeserved kills from this when I was playing a few casual matches with some friends when I BS'd them while they were returning to the stage above me.

Yeah. Back Slash has insane range but the start up remains to be a problem. Anyone can easily react to back slash because its hitbox comes out at frame 31. You should only exploit this if the opponent is doing any move of the sorts on a platform.

~~~

I want to capitalize on how important it is to utilize Shulk's tilts. D-tilt works better for spacing since it has slightly longer range than f-tilt. It also works better for interrupting rush down attempts. F-tilt is better for dealing with pressure especially if you pivot with it. F-tilt also works better against air borne opponents. Although you'd think u-tilt is better, the hitbox on u-tilt is weird and there's a certain area where in u-tilt won't hit (45 degrees? Not sure to be exact) but whatever that blind spot is, f-tilt can cover that spot, pivoted or not. As for u-tilt, its use is fairly obvious and there's a specific area wherein it should be used. You should always use u-tilt when you get the chance to. It comes out at frame 10 which is as fast as d-tilt so you can catch opponents off guard with it

The most IMPORTANT aspect of using your tilts is to get used to their hitboxes. You're usually too used to how much area f-air and n-air can cover so using f-tilt and d-tilt may feel a bit stiff at first. It does but once you fully understand the hitboxes, you'll be dealing significantly more damage. More importantly, you're less susceptible to shield grabbing for as long as you mix up your spacing options. Plus, your tilts are significantly safer on shield than your aerials anyway (except b-air. That **** is safe on shield if spaced correctly)

Another thing: Once you master your tilts' hitboxes and utilize them properly, you don't have to worry about closing in to deal damage with buster. Shulk's tilts deal a lot of damage anyway. I don't think you can deal THAT much damage with n-air and f-air alone.

 

[Masonomace]

Has BS's hitbox at the top ever been mentioned? It's very much impractical in normal play but I thought it was worth mentioning, if it hasn't been already.
I've only gotten at least 2 or 3 undeserved kills from this when I was playing a few casual matches with some friends when I BS'd them while they were returning to the stage above me.

I dig this. Lately when I've been playing Marth I'd always go for a F-smash to hit an opponent on BF's platform because it's a guaranteed tipper. The same thing kinda applies here with Back Slash. When I pretend my Back Slash is a slow F-smash, the back-hit can be assured when you know where to place it. The greater thing about doing this is that launching them with this Back Slash gives us another opportunity to Back Slash their back upon their return recovering to the ledge (unless they use a move to turn their back around & face us like Marth's B-air for example).
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Shield Shulk skidding
Talking about Shield Arts for a bit more, I've come across something I'm getting into the habit of doing more: Shield's ground-game. We know the bubble shield is awesome & how much we can turtle, but there's something interesting about Shulk's skid animation that shines when Shield is on. This thread gave me some inspiration on the matter, & after reading it, I got to some messing around with Shulk's skid. Vanilla Shulk skidding after a dash or run animation is so-so & it's not much better in Speed because you skid too far without acting out of skid any sooner. But Shield Shulk, h'oohoo Shield Shulk. You start a dash / run & stop it by skidding, you'll act out much sooner with crouching, Jab, D-tilt, Air Slash, Vision, you name it. It's almost reminiscent to the Monado Art activation stopping your walking dashing or running momentum in order to input a quick tilt or smash. Of course Shield Shulk doesn't slide as far though. This does decently well in mid-close-quarter moments where usually dashing with Vanilla or Speed Shulk would overshoot & therefore can be unsafe & why walking is usually safer. However, with Shield Shulk you can safely dash / run all you like & just skid coming to a stop faster to use a move or even crouch for defense. That's about all I have to share atm. Oh & Shield Mode is also more resilient to push-back effects like wind-boxes & water.

Are we tired of Kirby inhaling us, or Mario pushing us away with FLUDD on the floor? Put on a Shield Art (or just use your bubble shield. Bubble shield negates push-back effects unless Kirby or King Dedede are too close & will command grab you regardless) & be inhaled more slowly so you can react to it better. This becomes especially helpful when a King Dedede & Kirby uses their Inhale as a mix-up by B-Reversing it to catch us off guard. And if you're really having problems with Mario FLUDD pushing you back, put on a Speed Art & shield the water so you can punish him for it afterwards.

Edit:

I want to capitalize on how important it is to utilize Shulk's tilts. D-tilt works better for spacing since it has slightly longer range than f-tilt. It also works better for interrupting rush down attempts. F-tilt is better for dealing with pressure especially if you pivot with it. F-tilt also works better against air borne opponents. Although you'd think u-tilt is better, the hitbox on u-tilt is weird and there's a certain area where in u-tilt won't hit (45 degrees? Not sure to be exact) but whatever that blind spot is, f-tilt can cover that spot, pivoted or not. As for u-tilt, its use is fairly obvious and there's a specific area wherein it should be used. You should always use u-tilt when you get the chance to. It comes out at frame 10 which is as fast as d-tilt so you can catch opponents off guard with it

The most IMPORTANT aspect of using your tilts is to get used to their hitboxes. You're usually too used to how much area f-air and n-air can cover so using f-tilt and d-tilt may feel a bit stiff at first. It does but once you fully understand the hitboxes, you'll be dealing significantly more damage. More importantly, you're less susceptible to shield grabbing for as long as you mix up your spacing options. Plus, your tilts are significantly safer on shield than your aerials anyway (except b-air. That **** is safe on shield if spaced correctly)

Another thing: Once you master your tilts' hitboxes and utilize them properly, you don't have to worry about closing in to deal damage with buster. Shulk's tilts deal a lot of damage anyway. I don't think you can deal THAT much damage with n-air and f-air alone.

This urges me to set my C-stick to Attack so I can use tilts a lot more (I'll go do that now actually). The only issue I have with Shulk's F-tilt is that it doesn't angle up or down (I'm pretty sure we've all said this since the beginning of September). I don't get much success hitting airborne opponents with F-tilt unless it's a relatively large character that's extending some kind of hurt-box favorably toward my F-tilt, pivoted or not. I use the startup of U-tilt's Blade hit-box more because it covers a tiny yet decent amount of area in front of Shulk & the Beam starts appearing from the Monado roughly around the 45º angle but the Beam coming out can only hit very tall characters from the ground like Rosalina. The Monado looks like it's held sideways in mid-moment airborne over Shulk's head & that's kind of a good indicator for me. This little gap between the U-tilt's Beam & F-tilt that I don't usually hit is solved by F-air or N-air, which is probably the main reason I challenge airborne opponents with N-air or F-air more often than using F-tilt or U-tilt.

 

[Berserker.]

This urges me to set my C-stick to Attack so I can use tilts a lot more (I'll go do that now actually). The only issue I have with Shulk's F-tilt is that it doesn't angle up or down (I'm pretty sure we've all said this since the beginning of September). I don't get much success hitting airborne opponents with F-tilt unless it's a relatively large character that's extending some kind of hurt-box favorably toward my F-tilt, pivoted or not. I use the startup of U-tilt's Blade hit-box more because it covers a tiny yet decent amount of area in front of Shulk & the Beam starts appearing from the Monado roughly around the 45º angle but the Beam coming out can only hit very tall characters from the ground like Rosalina. The Monado looks like it's held sideways in mid-moment airborne over Shulk's head & that's kind of a good indicator for me. This little gap between the U-tilt's Beam & F-tilt that I don't usually hit is solved by F-air or N-air, which is probably the main reason I challenge airborne opponents with N-air or F-air more often than using F-tilt or U-tilt.

I'd set my c-stick to attack

Using f-tilt feels awkward at first. D-tilt will definitely be more used since it's quicker (Frame 10) and it has longer range. F-tilt will be used when:
- When you're dealing with pressure (Pivot f-tilt)
- Ending combos (N-air > F-tilt)
- Punishing (F-smash works too here but f-tilt comes out 2 frames earlier)

Basically, you'd use f-tilt when you're either at an advantage or at a disadvantage. At neutral, it's mostly d-tilt.

~~~

Been using jab cancel to d-throw to f-tilt/d-tilt in buster art. It's really good to make your anti-pressure (jab comes out at frame 5 so it's a tool to use when being pressured) game much more rewarding

 

[Zatchiel]

So, here's some more thoughts on MALLC, because it'll never be too late for more of those:

- B-air, n-air, and f-air all seem to receive the most benefit. U-air feels fine to me, especially coupled with Jump since it can lead into itself for rather early kills. D-air is subject to further testing, but I haven't been able to do anything with it in an actual match personally.

- Jump is probably the best art to MALLC with, none to my surprise. Between the opponent's starting percents and death percents you can chase them all over the screen if you land a MALLC aerial. At low percents it can set up a tech chase, which Jump Shulk eats for breakfast.

- Aside from Jump I've paid close attention to the offensive merit of the cancel with other arts too. Listing by "vanilla into [art goes here]"

Speed: Combos, setting up tech chases, or killing. Any way you look at it, just chasing them down as soon as the art activates. Like Jump, but more ground based/much less regard for chases into the territory of even moderate heights.

Shield: No outstanding merits. Usual cancels, with less than average follow up potential after early percents.

Buster: Combos and setting up tech chases; all around damage dealing. Magnified more heavily in this art than Speed. Punishment dealt in this art can be so brutal. Sometimes you only need one smash attack out of this art to put them at kill percents.

Smash: Killing. Nothing more really needs to be said. If you land a sweetspot b-air for the MALLC that's around 12% fresh, which is ****ing huge for this art. I fish for that usually.

Also, more Shield testing results:

- Shield -> Smash has got to be one of Little Mac's worst nightmares. Vision wrecks his **** if he's offensive and defensive play gets him chased down and thrown offstage for a possible ledgeguard even without Smash. Our range is so awesome we don't even have to go offstage to ledgeguard, which is a huge plus because of Shield's ****ty aerial mobility.

- This isn't really news, but you can basically forget about dying from most attacks onstage before 140-150% unless you're near the ledge. Before then only a very solid gimp will do the job against Shield Shulk. I say "very solid" because if Shulk has any time at all to switch to Jump (if it's available) or Speed (for horizontal recovery) he can make it back after being sent offstage in Shield with usual trouble. Which is very little itself, in my opinion.

- Almost every Diddy I've played against didn't get the clue that they couldn't use down throw to up air on me at low percents, when I used Shield to start the game. After they figured that out they weren't sure how to punish me (they were still dealing less damage than normal) and just started pulling bananas. If I ever got a hold of one of those I switched to Speed and abused our JCIT for grabs and other setups.

- From my experience, a successful Vision counter is always a green light for switching to another art. Particularly if they get sent offstage.

- Powershielding in this art wrecks ****. Having said that: grabs are great, and while air slash is subpar for killing in this stance it's even better for getting an opponent off of you. If you whiff it, the punishment will practically be less severe than it would be for you in any other art. Still, be as cautious with it as you would otherwise.

Also doing some testing with Smash up throw. Not for killing, but for setting up kill opportunities. Almost everywhere below the opponent can be covered with a smash, up tilt, an aerial, Vision, or Air Slash to seal the deal. This is also at percents or circumstances where b-throw or d-throw won't be killing. And ledgeguarding can be dangerous in this art if we decide to go for that.

Any thoughts or other personal input is welcome. These ideas of mine have been backing up with me not being around as often.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

So, here's some more thoughts on MALLC, because it'll never be too late for more of those:

- B-air, n-air, and f-air all seem to receive the most benefit. U-air feels fine to me, especially coupled with Jump since it can lead into itself for rather early kills. D-air is subject to further testing, but I haven't been able to do anything with it in an actual match personally.

- Jump is probably the best art to MALLC with, none to my surprise. Between the opponent's starting percents and death percents you can chase them all over the screen if you land a MALLC aerial. At low percents it can set up a tech chase, which Jump Shulk eats for breakfast.

- Aside from Jump I've paid close attention to the offensive merit of the cancel with other arts too. Listing by "vanilla into [art goes here]"

Speed: Combos, setting up tech chases, or killing. Any way you look at it, just chasing them down as soon as the art activates. Like Jump, but more ground based/much less regard for chases into the territory of even moderate heights.

Shield: No outstanding merits. Usual cancels, with less than average follow up potential after early percents.

Buster: Combos and setting up tech chases; all around damage dealing. Magnified more heavily in this art than Speed. Punishment dealt in this art can be so brutal. Sometimes you only need one smash attack out of this art to put them at kill percents.

Smash: Killing. Nothing more really needs to be said. If you land a sweetspot b-air for the MALLC that's around 12% fresh, which is ****ing huge for this art. I fish for that usually.

Also, more Shield testing results:

- Shield -> Smash has got to be one of Little Mac's worst nightmares. Vision wrecks his **** if he's offensive and defensive play gets him chased down and thrown offstage for a possible ledgeguard even without Smash. Our range is so awesome we don't even have to go offstage to ledgeguard, which is a huge plus because of Shield's ****ty aerial mobility.

- This isn't really news, but you can basically forget about dying from most attacks onstage before 140-150% unless you're near the ledge. Before then only a very solid gimp will do the job against Shield Shulk. I say "very solid" because if Shulk has any time at all to switch to Jump (if it's available) or Speed (for horizontal recovery) he can make it back after being sent offstage in Shield with usual trouble. Which is very little itself, in my opinion.

- Almost every Diddy I've played against didn't get the clue that they couldn't use down throw to up air on me at low percents, when I used Shield to start the game. After they figured that out they weren't sure how to punish me (they were still dealing less damage than normal) and just started pulling bananas. If I ever got a hold of one of those I switched to Speed and abused our JCIT for grabs and other setups.

- From my experience, a successful Vision counter is always a green light for switching to another art. Particularly if they get sent offstage.

- Powershielding in this art wrecks ****. Having said that: grabs are great, and while air slash is subpar for killing in this stance it's even better for getting an opponent off of you. If you whiff it, the punishment will practically be less severe than it would be for you in any other art. Still, be as cautious with it as you would otherwise.

Also doing some testing with Smash up throw. Not for killing, but for setting up kill opportunities. Almost everywhere below the opponent can be covered with a smash, up tilt, an aerial, Vision, or Air Slash to seal the deal. This is also at percents or circumstances where b-throw or d-throw won't be killing. And ledgeguarding can be dangerous in this art if we decide to go for that.

Any thoughts or other personal input is welcome. These ideas of mine have been backing up with me not being around as often.

Nice stuff Zatchiel! On a related note, recently I've been approaching with a MALLC airdodge and it's been working out great. Do you have any thoughts on that?

 

[meleebrawler]

Jump is also great for MALLC because you only have to press B once, making it easier
to do quickly.

 

[Zatchiel]

Nice stuff Zatchiel! On a related note, recently I've been approaching with a MALLC airdodge and it's been working out great. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Approaching with it sounds a little sketchy to me. Our aerials cover a lot of area so I feel those are better for approaching. Take n-air for example. Protects us with superb coverage in the air, while the art activation protects us when we reach the ground.

If you pull off airdodge MALLC optimally you're not exposed at all during your air-to-ground transition. So I like the thought of it defensively more than as an approach, although it definitely has its uses for either. I think it's okay on approach, but we possess better options for going on the offense.

 

[Berserker.]

Has anyone ever tried attempting to just time out the match by camping in shield? You can move around easily with jump art to kill time until shield art's cooldown is finished then you go on shield art again. Rinse. Repeat. You can even use buster with the high amount of rage you have so that you won't get punished for actually hitting your opponent.

Also, shield+rage+vision = Salt. A lot of salt. I'll admit, this strategy is lame but then again, timing out is lame.

 

[erico9001]

Has anyone ever tried attempting to just time out the match by camping in shield? You can move around easily with jump art to kill time until shield art's cooldown is finished then you go on shield art again. Rinse. Repeat. You can even use buster with the high amount of rage you have so that you won't get punished for actually hitting your opponent.

Also, shield+rage+vision = Salt. A lot of salt. I'll admit, this strategy is lame but then again, timing out is lame.

Yep. I've done that. I did it to a Sonic who started the match trying to stall me. Once I got his stock, it was stall time. It was pretty fun, tbh.

Oh, and Decisive Shield can live to ridiculous percents in combination with AAS.

 

[Berserker.]

Yep. I've done that. I did it to a Sonic who started the match trying to stall me. Once I got his stock, it was stall time. It was pretty fun, tbh.

Oh, and Decisive Shield can live to ridiculous percents in combination with AAS.

Yeah. I've heard about decisive shield's insane survivability with AAS (According to @Goesasu )

I should probably tinker around with decisive buster or decisive jump. Decisive jump might allow for longer combos.

I really want to mess with perfect pivoting more. Someone needs to make a video for PP'ing strategies with Shulk. I'd love to help with finding applications for PP'ing but I worry for my circle pad.

 

[erico9001]

Yeah. I've heard about decisive shield's insane survivability with AAS (According to @Goesasu )

I should probably tinker around with decisive buster or decisive jump. Decisive jump might allow for longer combos.

I really want to mess with perfect pivoting more. Someone needs to make a video for PP'ing strategies with Shulk. I'd love to help with finding applications for PP'ing but I worry for my circle pad.

Well that was originally according to me

-Elaborating on Monado Shield + AAS, the opponent has a really hard time killing you. You can be hit very far, near off camera, and still recovery without a jump while in Monado Shield. Given decisive shield's lower knockback taken and how you only need to be off of Monado Shield for a few seconds before it comes back up, you can live to ridiculously high percents.

But yeah... It works great in theory, but I haven't had the opportunity to try it out in practice other than a lv 9 CPU I faced while at school today. I won the match while at 190% in the first stock (out of 3), hehe. I was on battlefield, so stalling a few seconds between uses of the art was very easy.

I'm going to try it out in practice in a bit.

edit: I was trying it out against @KumaOso. It worked fine against the first character he used, but not so well against Bowser. This makes sense though, as Bowser is a heavy hitter. I suppose it worked well just at a lower percent than it would against other characters..

 

[FOcast]

I don't have any recording method to show this off with, but I've been working on ledge tricks for the past couple days, and I've found some cool stuff.

The first thing is pulled straight from Sodrek's matches in the video thread. While hanging on the ledge, if the opponent is not in a position to hit you immediately, you can drop, cycle to whatever Monado art you want, and regrab very quickly. Since you don't get Iframes back on the second grab, this isn't 100% safe, but it is a fast way to get back onto the stage with whatever art you want.

Slightly more complicated, the ledge position also gives you good timing windows for ledge drop -> art select -> Jump forward with any aerial -> MALLC on the stage. Depending on your finger speed, you might need to switch between dropping by pressing away, or fastfalling with down. Either way, make sure your stick goes back to neutral before selecting, or you'll be countering below the stage at best, and backslashing into hell at worst.

Finally, I've been a bit frustrated with Shulk's ledge trump game. FSmash reads are great, but BAir is too slow to do the kind of hits that Shiek, Falcon and Fox can pull off. However, MArts' b-reversal properties can fix this! From the "teetering over the ledge" position (set up by rolling or skidding into the ledge) you can do: Art select -> instant ledge drop (quarter circle from away from stage to down) -> hold away from stage. The timing is tight, but you'll let go before the activation, which will turn you to face away from the stage. From there, FAir if they are dropping, or Jump -> Fair/UAir/Nair if they want to double jump back to the stage.

The last one is untested against humans, but it was bouncing around my head all day today. I had to check if it was possible, and it totally is!

 

[erico9001]

I don't have any recording method to show this off with, but I've been working on ledge tricks for the past couple days, and I've found some cool stuff.

The first thing is pulled straight from Sodrek's matches in the video thread. While hanging on the ledge, if the opponent is not in a position to hit you immediately, you can drop, cycle to whatever Monado art you want, and regrab very quickly. Since you don't get Iframes back on the second grab, this isn't 100% safe, but it is a fast way to get back onto the stage with whatever art you want.

Slightly more complicated, the ledge position also gives you good timing windows for ledge drop -> art select -> Jump forward with any aerial -> MALLC on the stage. Depending on your finger speed, you might need to switch between dropping by pressing away, or fastfalling with down. Either way, make sure your stick goes back to neutral before selecting, or you'll be countering below the stage at best, and backslashing into hell at worst.

Finally, I've been a bit frustrated with Shulk's ledge trump game. FSmash reads are great, but BAir is too slow to do the kind of hits that Shiek, Falcon and Fox can pull off. However, MArts' b-reversal properties can fix this! From the "teetering over the ledge" position (set up by rolling or skidding into the ledge) you can do: Art select -> instant ledge drop (quarter circle from away from stage to down) -> hold away from stage. The timing is tight, but you'll let go before the activation, which will turn you to face away from the stage. From there, FAir if they are dropping, or Jump -> Fair/UAir/Nair if they want to double jump back to the stage.

The last one in untested against humans, but it was bouncing around my head all day today. I had to check if it was possible, and it totally is!

A decnt option for ledge trumps is detach and reverse air slash. Only really works with default air slash.

 

[Berserker.]

I use reverse air slash for ledge trumping. That, or I just climb on the ledge and rely on Shulk's ledge traps because Shulk has amazing ledge trapping options

 

[FOcast]

Good call, I should definitely be using reverse Air Slash. If I can get the Jump mode b-reversal to work consistently, though, that could allow for some deadly followups against lower percent people.

I feel like this character is so open that I could spend 90% of my training time finding new stuff that I'll never actually master because I'm having way too much fun breaking the system.

 

[Pentao]

I'm not a regular on the Shulk boards, so I'm sorry if this has been discussed already, but I do very much enjoy playing Shulk as a character, enough that I'd say he's a comfortable secondary.

How do Shulk mains incorporate Back Slash into their gameplay? Or is it a simple: "They don't." sort of deal?

I remember reading a while ago that Back Slash was sort of the "Falcon Punch" of Shulk's moveset, but from what I've messed around with it, it seems to be far more usable than Falcon Punch. I've been using the custom Back Slash Leap lately, and I've found it's actually pretty okay. It does a heap of damage (14-16% in a single strike) and tons of knockback, while also significantly damaging a shield (still very punishable on shield though).

Against opponents with rushing type moves, I feel that Back Slash is an amazing punish. Opponents like Charizard, Falco, Fox, Ike, Bowser with customs, and sometimes Meta Knight often leave their back exposed during their side-bs.

I actually like purposely running to an opponent's back if I can, to constantly pressure them with the possibility of Back Slash KOing them.

I'm not trying to say this move is godlike or even something that should be part of every Shulk's arsenal, but for those who do use it, how do you incorporate it into play?

 

[FOcast]

The primary

How do Shulk mains incorporate Back Slash into their gameplay? Or is it a simple: "They don't." sort of deal?

The best uses I've seen for Back Slash are mixing up your momentum when returning to the ground (falling with a hitbox and different timing from normal or fast falling) or for chasing down people who are trying to do the same. Back Slash's hop and long range can extend your zone of punishment when opponents think they're far enough away from you.

That said, I haven't incorporated it into my own game at all. I tend to play a safe and control-oriented game, so the risk associated with Back Slash's lag turns me off the move.

 

[Zatchiel]

I'm not trying to say this move is godlike or even something that should be part of every Shulk's arsenal, but for those who do use it, how do you incorporate it into play?

I've been using it a lot to punish people who choose to use roll get ups from the ledge if they see me standing right above them. Depending on what I was doing before I can't get there quickly enough for a smash attack and Air Slash won't reach some characters. Unless I'm in Smash it's usually just to deal some damage. If their percent is high enough it should send them right back offstage for another ledgeguard if it doesn't kill them.

Against the larger/heavier characters I go for back throw into back slash sometimes, if I doubt they're expecting a tech chase situation. Reasonably when I grab them near a ledge and they think they're gonna get sent off. Works at low percents with Vanilla, Jump, Speed, and Shield, but I tend to only do it in Shield because the other two arts get much better follow ups off of grabs. At certain mid percents the same works with Buster over a larger portion of the cast, to much greater effect of course.

Speed back slash is okay at punishing dodges that don't place the opponent beside the ledge. Also works well against air dodges when they are expecting use to charge at them with n-air or f-air onstage. I use them most in Speed, less in Buster, and very seldom with the other arts since we do have better options. That's all I can think of for now.

 

[erico9001]

I like back slash against characters who use lots of Bair like Ness.

 

[Berserker.]

How does back slash fare against Rosalina's n-air? Can anyone test this? Land back slash on Rosa. Time the back slash while she does n-air. Use it when she has her back on you

 

[erico9001]

Oh, and I've been using back slash to get at people who are recovering after I back throw them off of the stage. Try to time it so that if they air dodge it, it still gets them after they land on the ground (because the hitbox doesn't go away if they air dodge it, so if the sword is still in them when they land they will still get hit).

 

[meleebrawler]

How does back slash fare against Rosalina's n-air? Can anyone test this? Land back slash on Rosa. Time the back slash while she does n-air. Use it when she has her back on you

Wouldn't the game just consider her to be facing forward the whole time if she was at the beginning?

 

[Berserker.]

Wouldn't the game just consider her to be facing forward the whole time if she was at the beginning?

Not really sure. Just curious because I got a back hit on her while she was doing it. I'm a bit blurry on the details but I just want someone to confirm it.

 

[meleebrawler]

Not really sure. Just curious because I got a back hit on her while she was doing it. I'm a bit blurry on the details but I just want someone to confirm it.

Did you maybe land right on top of her while doing it?

 

[Berserker.]

Did you maybe land right on top of her while doing it?

I wasn't anywhere above her. I did it from the ground.

This is why I need someone to test it.

 

[kenniky]

I'm not a regular on the Shulk boards, so I'm sorry if this has been discussed already, but I do very much enjoy playing Shulk as a character, enough that I'd say he's a comfortable secondary.

How do Shulk mains incorporate Back Slash into their gameplay? Or is it a simple: "They don't." sort of deal?

I remember reading a while ago that Back Slash was sort of the "Falcon Punch" of Shulk's moveset, but from what I've messed around with it, it seems to be far more usable than Falcon Punch. I've been using the custom Back Slash Leap lately, and I've found it's actually pretty okay. It does a heap of damage (14-16% in a single strike) and tons of knockback, while also significantly damaging a shield (still very punishable on shield though).

Against opponents with rushing type moves, I feel that Back Slash is an amazing punish. Opponents like Charizard, Falco, Fox, Ike, Bowser with customs, and sometimes Meta Knight often leave their back exposed during their side-bs.

I actually like purposely running to an opponent's back if I can, to constantly pressure them with the possibility of Back Slash KOing them.

I'm not trying to say this move is godlike or even something that should be part of every Shulk's arsenal, but for those who do use it, how do you incorporate it into play?

Generally I like to use Back Slash after b-throw on characters that don't have multiple jumps or aren't Marcina - their back will be turned to you and even if they jump their back will still face you

It's not particularly reliable though and Back Slash isn't a very good move in general. Could be used for surprise factor though.

Back Slash Leap is good because of speed, Back Slash Charge has super armor which could be good for recovering (although customs = windboxes so idk how good this idea is)

 

[meleebrawler]

Generally I like to use Back Slash after b-throw on characters that don't have multiple jumps or aren't Marcina - their back will be turned to you and even if they jump their back will still face you

It's not particularly reliable though and Back Slash isn't a very good move in general. Could be used for surprise factor though.

Back Slash Leap is good because of speed, Back Slash Charge has super armor which could be good for recovering (although customs = windboxes so idk how good this idea is)

I see Charge as more of an escape move in juggles. As a recovery move it lags terribly once you land
on the stage so any remotely speedy opponent can catch you unless they overcommitted edge-guarding low.

 

[kenniky]

I see Charge as more of an escape move in juggles. As a recovery move it lags terribly once you land
on the stage so any remotely speedy opponent can catch you unless they overcommitted edge-guarding low.

It works more because of surprise factor than anything really

BSC can be used for punishing recoveries with lots of landing lag if you're too far away like Lucario's. Also super armor could help punish Fox/Falco's side B (they go through you and then you hit them while landing lag)

BSL is probably the best of the three

This should be for custom moveset discussion though

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Has anyone ever tried attempting to just time out the match by camping in shield? You can move around easily with jump art to kill time until shield art's cooldown is finished then you go on shield art again. Rinse. Repeat. You can even use buster with the high amount of rage you have so that you won't get punished for actually hitting your opponent.

Also, shield+rage+vision = Salt. A lot of salt. I'll admit, this strategy is lame but then again, timing out is lame.

Lol I was thinking about this in relation to yesterdays Villager camping. Everyone was taking the lead and then camping Villager. We can just go in Shield arte given the shields strength and AS OOS.

 

[erico9001]

I learned more about locks today, only to be disappointed that Shulk doesn't have any moves that can be used to do the lock. Well, I guess I declared challenge accepted at that point. I found that Shulk can lock, but it's very situational.

> Dair can be used. At low percents, the meteor smash part works. Otherwise, he initial hit works. However, good luck landing that move.
> Buster F-tilt, Fair, and Bair can jab lock at low percents.

On Mario, Buster F-tilt lock stops working after 24%. Buster Fair stops working after 26%. Buster Bair stops working after 18%.

This is already very situational. You need to have an opportunity in which both 1) the opponent has missed a tech, and 2) the opponent is between those percents.

To make it even more situational, getting the opponent into a position where it is possible for them to need to tech is almost impossible while in Monado Buster. The only move that will work within the percents specified above is the first hit of Air Slash or Mighty Air Slash. Unfortunately, AAS does not work. MAS will only work if the person lands nearby to where you are. AS is sort of the best option for that. The only other way to get them in that position is to U-tilt them while Monado Buster is on its activation period.

When you do get the opportunity, run in with your Buster Fair which leads into another lock with Buster F-tilt, and finish the deal with a running Air Slash.

However, if using platforms, Buster Shulk can use the lock in a much less situational way. Buster Shulk can push characters off of the edge of a platform into a state where they cannot tech, like what is used in this video. The opponent is forced into the position where they cannot tech nor jump away. Buster Shulk can do this using Fair, Bair, or F-tilt, at about the same percents at which he can lock with the moves. Fair and Bair are the most useful.

In addition, Hyper Buster can be used to increase the range of percents at which the locks and the knocking off the platform works.

So we have this:
- Monado Buster:
-- RAR Bair Mario who is on the first platform of battlefield, land behind where he falls to, F-tilt forward = lock, Back Slash for 57% damage. Supplement Bair for Fair for a 51% damage combo. Do the same thing (with Bair) in hyper buster for 68% damage.
- Hyper Buster + MAS
-- RAR Bair, land behind Mario, F-tilt forward = lock, Run in and Mighty Air Slash for 73% damage.

 

[TheHopefulHero]

Awesome. We might have a jab lock to use in specific situations. We can always use MALLAC to make the D-Air safe if we mess up.

 

[erico9001]

I forgot some things. Vanilla Back slash (up close) can lock until 5%, and Vanilla F-tilt can jab lock only at 0% (up close). In other words, those two cannot jab lock. However, arts that lower damage and therefore knockback can actually end up working. While at 0% in monado shield, U-tilt will put them in the state they need to tech and back slash or the beam part of F-tilt can lock them.

You can use back slash to lock too. On Mario, it stops working at 32%. Other than the higher percent, there's no reason to use it.

 

[FOcast]

Good information. It seems to me like F-Airs will probably be most consistent for locking.


I saw a video the other day which mentioned the fact that you can cancel airdodge landing lag by sliding forward off of a platform. While messing around on Battlefield today, I realized that this gives us some great options on this stage. Since both Speed Full Hop and Jump Short Hop put us directly above these platforms with lots of momentum, we can do perfectly safe rising air dodges aimed at them (for example, from the very edge of the stage), cancel at the lip of the platform, and go directly into N-Air, F-Air, or dodge again.

The platform cancel also allows us to act much quicker than a regular instant airdodge off of these jumps:

Speed's N-Air off the platform covers about 180-200 degrees of its hitbox, while Jump's covers 60-80 due to faster falling speed.

By the same token, Jump's F-Air lands quicker, but still reaches the ground with its hitbox (tested on Jiggs)

 

[Berserker.]

@ Masonomace Shulk's aerial speed is 1.06 (18th fastest)

@ Indigo Jeans What's Monado speed and Monado jump's air speed then?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Monado Jumps APPARENT air speed is 1.175, which is fifth fastest. Monado Speeds is 1.0375, eighth fastest. These are the values I got through my original testing, which is why I say apparent. Afaik Toomai hasnt mined the raw values for Monado Arts yet and I lack the resources to do so myself (how do I even get a legal dump of the rom?). A character can have super high air speed but super high air friction or low aerial acceleration, so their air speed wont seem too great in practice.

 

[erico9001]

Monado Jumps APPARENT air speed is 1.175, which is fifth fastest. Monado Speeds is 1.0375, eighth fastest. These are the values I got through my original testing, which is why I say apparent. Afaik Toomai hasnt mined the raw values for Monado Arts yet and I lack the resources to do so myself (how do I even get a legal dump of the rom?). A character can have super high air speed but super high air friction or low aerial acceleration, so their air speed wont seem too great in practice.

Oh, but it's only behind lightweight Paulutena, Hyper Speed, Decisive Jump, and Hyper Jump (in that order)! Thanks for doing those tests. Now I know that Hyper Speed actually has faster air speeds than Monado Jump!

 

[Berserker.]

Some random tips with speed art: Usually, your opponent is always ready to shield grab n-air (most of the time). Once you've conditioned them into being more aware of SH N-air, you can opt for a dash grab or you can just dash dance and bait them. They won't expect it.

I'm also beginning to find buster u-throw interesting. After u-throw, you can FH N-air/F-air to catch them if they jump or if you're precise, you can use u-air. If they try to attack or air dodge (dumb) off from u-throw, use jab, u-tilt or pivot f-tilt/f-smash. You can treat buster u-tilt in the same way. Situational stuff, but it's good to know.

 

[Zatchiel]

I'm also beginning to find buster u-throw interesting. After u-throw, you can FH N-air/F-air to catch them if they jump or if you're precise, you can use u-air. If they try to attack or air dodge (dumb) off from u-throw, use jab, u-tilt or pivot f-tilt/f-smash. You can treat buster u-tilt in the same way. Situational stuff, but it's good to know.

Don't use full hop n-air before higher percents unless you're going to land on a platform during your descent, since it's quite unsafe on hit otherwise. Very good info nonetheless.

For comboing I think d-throw is our best. Once it starts sending the opponent into tumble/setting up tech chases you can do so much with it. Jump or Speed string combined with MALLC. Or go for the kill with Smash after dealing a bit more damage following up the d-throw with more hits in Buster; or just go right into Smash during the chase after d-throw.