Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[SGJet]

I was guessing this mindset for Speed Shulk was more prevalent than I thought. It's how I play with the art most of the time unless I've conditioned them to stop shielding against my approaches out of respect for his pivot grab. In that case I can start using n-air and get a lengthy string going off of that.

I think our best kill move in Speed is undoubtedly up smash. Make them afraid of our dash-in grabs and read their dodges. If you read correctly you can get a nice charge on the up smash and kill a lot of the cast at around 100%. And JC up smash with this art is soooooo ****ing good. Seriously. Another solid kill setup you mentioned is dash grab/pivot grab -> f-throw or d-throw/b-throw, which can lead into an immediate (buffered) art deactivation followed by an optional switch to another one to go for killing/gimping.

Something else to keep in mind is run -> Vision. If they are responding to your rush-down on the ground with any aggression this is a satisfying way to deal with it while also reminding them what we have that option for them to respect.

How do you buffer art deactivation?

 

[Zatchiel]

How do you buffer art deactivation?

Tap the special button three times before the animation of whatever you're doing ends; within ten frames before it ends that is. If you don't get the timing for it correct the worst penalty is a split second longer before the art deactivates. If you buffer it correctly, it'll deactivate absolutely as soon as possible.

This might help with understanding it:

New post: I uploaded a video to show off buffering the MA cancel so you can run/jump/walk at the same speeds as the art you were in before cancelling for one dash, jump, or walking input.

 

[erico9001]

For that Link jab combo, we should be able to switch around monado arts while in the combo. I wonder if we can use the monado art activation's invincibility frames to get out of it? Maybe we could even MALLC it? Although, I don't think this is worth putting time into testing since as @ Masonomace pointed out switching to Monado Shield might free us anyways.

 

[Masonomace]

Disclaimer: I did not do extensive lab testing with the Jab combos against Shulk

In regards to the Link & Fox Jab combos, I haven't messed with Shield Shulk against Link's Jab combo, but after looking at @Fox Is Openly Deceptive 's post, Shulk starts getting combo'd from 70% (is that only Vanilla, or are the Arts considered as well?). As for the Fox Jab, I messed with that & it felt like Jump makes it worse. Speed doesn't do much except for moving after each Jab hit due to the increased air speed. Shield seems to help the most because of reducing the hit-stun / knockback even more, which we can likely have our shield up eventually. Buster makes it worse. And Smash slightly helps, but the decreased weight at high percent puts us in a terrible position we shouldn't be in anyways.

Keep in mind that crouching reduces the knockback. Shield Shulk + crouching = Awesome.

 

[Berserker.]

So Monado shield is finally something more than just a survivability art? It's finally an art to go to when you're getting bodied.

Disadvantage: Shield
Neutral : Speed > Buster > Jump
Advantage : Buster > Jump = Smash

Thoughts?

Also (Ty Fox):

Right so I've been putting off the Shulk monado variations and how they fair against the Jab Link thus far, but no more. I was kindly informed by @ Berserker. that they will all have an effect except speed (and this was in fact correct). The current one I have is Shulk with no monado, which I think they call vanilla or something, but I'll just call default.

Shulk Default and Speed: Works from 70%. (You can't DJ)
Shulk Jump: Works from 12%. (You land before you can DJ and then can't Shield in time)
Shulk Shield: Works from 68%. (You land before you can DJ and then can't Shield in time)
Shulk Buster: Works from 48%. (You can't DJ)
Shulk Smash: Works from 34%. (You can't DJ)

Not the results I was expecting, but there you have it. I'll go update the main post with this info.

 

[FOcast]

Disclaimer: I did not do extensive lab testing with the Jab combos against Shulk

In regards to the Link & Fox Jab combos, I haven't messed with Shield Shulk against Link's Jab combo, but after looking at @Fox Is Openly Deceptive 's post, Shulk starts getting combo'd from 70% (is that only Vanilla, or are the Arts considered as well?). As for the Fox Jab, I messed with that & it felt like Jump makes it worse. Speed doesn't do much except for moving after each Jab hit due to the increased air speed. Shield seems to help the most because of reducing the hit-stun / knockback even more, which we can likely have our shield up eventually. Buster makes it worse. And Smash slightly helps, but the decreased weight at high percent puts us in a terrible position we shouldn't be in anyways.

Keep in mind that crouching reduces the knockback. Shield Shulk + crouching = Awesome.

Testing is definitely needed for this, but based on the categories of characters Fox's jab lock works on, I would expect that Shield mode and downward DI would let us shield it pretty quickly. This has the added benefit of reducing the damage of the combo, so even if it does still work indefinitely, the Fox will have to do it longer (more chances to mess up) for the same result.

 

[Berserker.]

Just saying but these threads haven't seen that much activity for a while

http://smashboards.com/threads/good...scussion-current-discussion-smashville.386902
http://smashboards.com/threads/altogether-for-a-chain-attack-shulk-combo-thread.385136/

Feel free to put some life into them

 

[erico9001]

Just saying but these threads haven't seen that much activity for a while

http://smashboards.com/threads/good...scussion-current-discussion-smashville.386902
http://smashboards.com/threads/altogether-for-a-chain-attack-shulk-combo-thread.385136/

Feel free to put some life into them

When you move onto a new stage in the stage discussion thread, you should probably make a post there to bump it and let us know.

But yeah, I agree for the combo thread.

-

I've very occasionally been running into a glitch with Shulk that has actually killed me a few of times. I'm wondering if anyone else has had this too.

So... Monado Jump is on its cooldown and you've just been hit off the stage. You press B to see if Monado Jump is back so you can use it to ease your recovery. It's not though, so you let the symbol disappear so you can use your up B again. You press Up B right at the moment when the symbol goes away and you should be able to up B. Well... what happens is you actually don't up B. There is no Air Slash. Furthermore, when you try pressing up B again (seeing as there's no monado art activation symbol preventing you from doing so), it doesn't work, again. You then are spamming your up B to try to make it work, but it doesn't, and you die.

It's rare and I've only had it happen to me 3 times before. The solution to this is to just not use your up B at that exact time. Wait until just a tiny bit after the grey symbol goes away.

 

[Berserker.]

This happened to me just once

Really weird glitch but for every Shulk player here, please be careful. Also, gonna start working on d-throw to f-tilt in buster because it works (Discussion continues in the combo thread)

 

[SGJet]

Not relevant, but I shouted out to you guys while commentating on Hbox's stream much love guys ^_^

 

[Masonomace]

When you move onto a new stage in the stage discussion thread, you should probably make a post there to bump it and let us know.

But yeah, I agree for the combo thread.

-

I've very occasionally been running into a glitch with Shulk that has actually killed me a few of times. I'm wondering if anyone else has had this too.

So... Monado Jump is on its cooldown and you've just been hit off the stage. You press B to see if Monado Jump is back so you can use it to ease your recovery. It's not though, so you let the symbol disappear so you can use your up B again. You press Up B right at the moment when the symbol goes away and you should be able to up B. Well... what happens is you actually don't up B. There is no Air Slash. Furthermore, when you try pressing up B again (seeing as there's no monado art activation symbol preventing you from doing so), it doesn't work, again. You then are spamming your up B to try to make it work, but it doesn't, and you die.

It's rare and I've only had it happen to me 3 times before. The solution to this is to just not use your up B at that exact time. Wait until just a tiny bit after the grey symbol goes away.

It's happened on one occasion for me, but I took this a try & was purposefully going for the Air Slash glitch, & got weird mixed results, mostly for being airborne. Sometimes I was unable to Air Slash for a good second before being able to use AS again. Other times It felt like I couldn't Air Slash in the same facing direction, but reversing the direction of Air Slash seemed to help (not too sure about this glitch when it comes to airborne results). Now about cycling to an Art on cooldown like per-say Jump, & trying to do a grounded Air Slash after watching the gray art vanish, you're stuck there doing nothing. Luckily all we have to do is input any basic movement (e.g. crouch, walking, shield, jump, etc.), attack move, or a Specials move to get rid of this AS glitch problem.

 

[Berserker.]

http://smashboards.com/threads/i-ca...uster-art-guide-still-wip-on-one-part.390561/

Monado buster guide ^^

 

[Virum]

http://smashboards.com/threads/i-ca...uster-art-guide-still-wip-on-one-part.390561/

Monado buster guide ^^

Threads like these are why I love this board. Everything is just so fantastically in-depth that both everyone can learn something new and honestly it puts pretty much every other board to shame. I've put over 130 hours into this character and still am learning new things about him.

 

[DavemanCozy]

In regards to the Link & Fox Jab combos, I haven't messed with Shield Shulk against Link's Jab combo, but after looking at @Fox Is Openly Deceptive 's post, Shulk starts getting combo'd from 70% (is that only Vanilla, or are the Arts considered as well?). As for the Fox Jab, I messed with that & it felt like Jump makes it worse. Speed doesn't do much except for moving after each Jab hit due to the increased air speed. Shield seems to help the most because of reducing the hit-stun / knockback even more, which we can likely have our shield up eventually. Buster makes it worse. And Smash slightly helps, but the decreased weight at high percent puts us in a terrible position we shouldn't be in anyways.

Keep in mind that crouching reduces the knockback. Shield Shulk + crouching = Awesome.

I'm going to say no to Shield vs Fox's jabs. Something Foxes like to do (myself included) is get a few jabs in, then grab. Jab -> jab2 -> grab let's him open up opponents, especially ones like Shulk who lack fast options. Most Fox's won't be going for the "infinite" jab strings. In the case that Fox follows up with a grab, shielding won't be preventing that. Not to mention, being in Shield will also guarantee that Shulk gets trapped in whatever Fox gets out of a throw, and Fox can get d-throw -> Fair -> Uair as a true combo for 32%.

My advice for getting out of Fox's jabs is to be in Speed instead and watch how he hits you with the 2nd jab. If he spaced it incorrectly and hits you too close, you'll get the chance to DI in (since he steps forward with jab2) and escape. At higher % (~80% iirc in vanilla/speed), you'll be able to jump out if you're getting hit with the tip of his fists.

 

[Masonomace]

Spacing Air Slash
Right now I'm getting a lot more familiar to Air Slash than I usually would, since I'm currently testing Buster Shulk's Air Slash's safety on-hit versus the rest of the cast. Anyways, maybe it's worth discussing how we maneuver & control our Air Slash in any following situations:

1. Recovering
2. Ledge-guarding
3. OoS punishing
4. Comboing
5. Insert another situation(s) here

We've talked about delaying the 2nd slash in order to horizontally recover for inching closer, which delaying the slash originally was a good idea & suggestion for using the Custom Up-B, Mighty Air Slash. However, I don't recall anyone mentioning or bringing up moving backwards during the 1st hit of Air Slash, & that's what I wanna discuss. Anytime we profit from a Air Slash read / punish or recovering to the ledge, are prime moments to take advantage of drifting backwards in between the the two slash attacks. This is especially key if you try going for an Air Slash at early percents because the 2nd hit of Air Slash will always deal 5.5% base damage (Training Mode), it's a standard move that neither has a sweet nor sourspot, & it deals the same knockback regardless of the move's placement for spacing. So thoughts?

 

[erico9001]

So patch came out for nintendo 3ds. http://smashboards.com/threads/patch-1-05-analysis.390646/

Somebody who is going from character to character said no changes to Shulk. He didn't specify what he tested though.

I'll be double checking. I've found so far that that glitch I brought up recently still exists. Shulk can still die from that happening, so watch out.

edit: he didn't test much, so there's a lot to test

Okay, buster damage output and input are the same

For testing Jump's damage intake, for the first Shulk's FS (which does 40.0% damage usually) I got 48% and the second time I got 97%
48/40= 1.2
97/80 = 1.2125

The value must be either greater than or equal to 1.2125... and since that's so close to the 1.22x in the op it's probably unchanged.

Monado Shield damage output still .7x

MALLC is still in, buffering thing still in (like where you walk fast)

Monado Speed final smash damage values:
32
63
95
127
160

What's interesting here is... the 63 value. If the damage multiplier was .8x, then the value for the final smash would need to be 64. Since it's less than 64, the multiplier must be less than .8x. I don't think this is a change with the update, but more likely just a small thing that was missed before. Since there's a 127 value, we can conclude for now that it's greater than or equal to 0.79375 and less than .8x.

Monado Shield damage intake values:
26% (must be larger than or equal to .65 and less than .675)
53% (.6625 to .675)
This one is hard to test as the CPU does not like to go to Shield, so let's just assume it's still .67 for now.

jab combo still the same damage

dash attack same damage

Monado Smash is still .5x

Gaur Plain omega FS kill percent against Shulk (shulk in spawn point, feet exactly inside each other for reference.)
Neutral: 10%
Smash: 1%
Buster: 87%

Was the same on the old version

I haven't found anything yet (other than Monado Speed damage output but that may have been like that before the patch). I'm just going to wait until the data dump to see if there are any hitbox changes/whatnot. Looks like all

 

[Berserker.]

Shulk's unchanged as far as I know

 

[erico9001]

I was just watching this video on Fox's jab lock
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agTPENb_1gY

The video creator says that Shulk cannot get out at any percent. According to this, Shulk's SOL if an experienced Fox player gets a jab on him.

However, the video creator says that heavy characters get out of the combo because the jab does not send them far enough, so they can shield. For instance, Bowser can shield the attack until he's at 110% damage. The video creator did not test Shulk's other arts (people need to test these, it is important!), but I figure Monado Shield should be able to get out of the combo just like the other heavies. Furthermore, Shulk can deactivate and switch through Monado Arts while in hit-stun when being launched, so in theory he could just switch to Monado Shield to get out of the combo at any time.

Needs testing.

 

[kenniky]

Monado Speed final smash damage values:
32
63
95
127
160

Can confirm 63 on 1.0.4 so looks like we got the multiplier wrong. Not sure how you managed to get to 160 though.... geez

 

[erico9001]

Can confirm 63 on 1.0.4 so looks like we got the multiplier wrong. Not sure how you managed to get to 160 though.... geez

Tortimer Island

 

[Berserker.]

I was just watching this video on Fox's jab lock
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agTPENb_1gY

The video creator says that Shulk cannot get out at any percent. According to this, Shulk's SOL if an experienced Fox player gets a jab on him.

However, the video creator says that heavy characters get out of the combo because the jab does not send them far enough, so they can shield. For instance, Bowser can shield the attack until he's at 110% damage. The video creator did not test Shulk's other arts (people need to test these, it is important!), but I figure Monado Shield should be able to get out of the combo just like the other heavies. Furthermore, Shulk can deactivate and switch through Monado Arts while in hit-stun when being launched, so in theory he could just switch to Monado Shield to get out of the combo at any time.

Needs testing.

Was already answered by Cozy

I'm going to say no to Shield vs Fox's jabs. Something Foxes like to do (myself included) is get a few jabs in, then grab. Jab -> jab2 -> grab let's him open up opponents, especially ones like Shulk who lack fast options. Most Fox's won't be going for the "infinite" jab strings. In the case that Fox follows up with a grab, shielding won't be preventing that. Not to mention, being in Shield will also guarantee that Shulk gets trapped in whatever Fox gets out of a throw, and Fox can get d-throw -> Fair -> Uair as a true combo for 32%.

My advice for getting out of Fox's jabs is to be in Speed instead and watch how he hits you with the 2nd jab. If he spaced it incorrectly and hits you too close, you'll get the chance to DI in (since he steps forward with jab2) and escape. At higher % (~80% iirc in vanilla/speed), you'll be able to jump out if you're getting hit with the tip of his fists.

@ Masonomace You should stick the Buster guide on the OP btw

Also, going to revive the customs thread and unsticky the Player finder

 

[erico9001]

Was already answered by Cozy

Oh, so that's what all that was about. Okay then, let's reply to that.

I'm going to say no to Shield vs Fox's jabs. Something Foxes like to do (myself included) is get a few jabs in, then grab. Jab -> jab2 -> grab let's him open up opponents, especially ones like Shulk who lack fast options. Most Fox's won't be going for the "infinite" jab strings. In the case that Fox follows up with a grab, shielding won't be preventing that. Not to mention, being in Shield will also guarantee that Shulk gets trapped in whatever Fox gets out of a throw, and Fox can get d-throw -> Fair -> Uair as a true combo for 32%.

My advice for getting out of Fox's jabs is to be in Speed instead and watch how he hits you with the 2nd jab. If he spaced it incorrectly and hits you too close, you'll get the chance to DI in (since he steps forward with jab2) and escape. At higher % (~80% iirc in vanilla/speed), you'll be able to jump out if you're getting hit with the tip of his fists.

So we CAN get out of the combo in Monado Speed thanks to DI'ing? The video didn't make it clear that characters that the combo works on at any percent can get out by doing that. Anyways, do you know if Monado Shield prevents Fox's throw combos from connecting? If it does, Monado Shield is still a safe way to go.

edit: If fox has to wait 20 frames to do the next jab, shouldn't Shulk have frame advantage over his grab?

 

[DavemanCozy]

Oh, so that's what all that was about. Okay then, let's reply to that.

So we CAN get out of the combo in Monado Speed thanks to DI'ing? The video didn't make it clear that characters that the combo works on at any percent can get out by doing that. Anyways, do you know if Monado Shield prevents Fox's throw combos from connecting? If it does, Monado Shield is still a safe way to go.

The video wasn't clear because it was only tested with vanilla Shulk stats. Speed Shulk has about the same air mobility as Jigglypuff, so we can use this to our advantage to escape Fox's jabs (they don't have the "trapping" knockback like Link's does).

It's actually quite the opposite. Monado Shield just makes it easier to get combo'd by Fox.

For example, in shield, you might be able to get to the ground faster at 0% to ~15%, but you're going to get grabbed if you shield, and good Fox players are going to expect that. Fox's U-tilt, for example, does a very good job of juggling characters, especially the heavy characters with falling speeds like Bowser, Dedede, and C. Falcon. The Fox player also isn't restricted to U-tilt over and over: he can just as easily shield or turn-around grab.

Either way, Fox can trap heavy opponents like this by micromanaging to their options this way, which is why I think being in Shield is a bad idea as you'll get trapped in his barrage. Like I mentioned: D-throw -> F-air -> U-air is 32% and a true combo between the F-air and U-air. Here's the combo in action vs Falcon at 10%:

Spoiler

edit: If fox has to wait 20 frames to do the next jab, shouldn't Shulk have frame advantage over his grab?

Not necessarily. Fox's 2nd jab has more hitstun in this game than it had in Brawl, and also, there are additional frames of landing lag after landing from htstun. If you watched the Link jab trap video, the part that explains how the trap works regarding landing should answer that:
http://youtu.be/fWmtA1VCHWY?t=1m16s

The same applies for Fox's jabs: there are a few frames of landing animation that these characters have to go through.

 

[erico9001]

The video wasn't clear because it was only tested with vanilla Shulk stats. Speed Shulk has about the same air mobility as Jigglypuff, so we can use this to our advantage to escape Fox's jabs (they don't have the "trapping" knockback like Link's does).

It's actually quite the opposite. Monado Shield just makes it easier to get combo'd by Fox.

For example, in shield, you might be able to get to the ground faster at 0% to ~15%, but you're going to get grabbed if you shield, and good Fox players are going to expect that. Fox's U-tilt, for example, does a very good job of juggling characters, especially the heavy characters with falling speeds like Bowser, Dedede, and C. Falcon. The Fox player also isn't restricted to U-tilt over and over: he can just as easily shield or turn-around grab.

Either way, Fox can trap heavy opponents like this by micromanaging to their options this way, which is why I think being in Shield is a bad idea as you'll get trapped in his barrage. Like I mentioned: D-throw -> F-air -> U-air is 32% and a true combo between the F-air and U-air. Here's the combo in action vs Falcon at 10%:

Spoiler

Not necessarily. Fox's 2nd jab has more hitstun in this game than it had in Brawl, and also, there are additional frames of landing lag after landing from htstun. If you watched the Link jab trap video, the part that explains how the trap works regarding landing should answer that:
http://youtu.be/fWmtA1VCHWY?t=1m16s

The same applies for Fox's jabs: there are a few frames of landing animation that these characters have to go through.

For the frames, I'm thinking of Shulk lands, shields the next two incoming jabs, and goes for something himself. This would be dependent on the fox doing those two jabs, not realizing that Shield Shulk is going to be able to put up a shield.

I'm not saying Speed should not be able to get out of the combo. It's just that the video does not make things clear about how long the combo lasts and what types of characters are able to get out of the combo through DI.

 

[Berserker.]

I know how @ Zatchiel utilizes jump art but how or when do you use it? What are your opinions on jump art anyway?

 

[DrShankums]

One tactic I've found useful against opponents who like to recover low (shulk, ike, villager, DHD etc.) Is to RAR off the stage or ledge drop and go for the stage spike with a fair. Of course they can tech the spike, I still find it useful against those hard to edge guard foes. You can also get a footstool off them so abuse that to secure the stock. If they start air dodging my RAR bairs, I go for the stage spike fair. Either follow them with your jump or grab the ledge quick and go for a ledge drop. Jump art is pretty incredible for for this tactic. Fair has such good range that it's usually pretty safe.

 

[SGJet]

Hello fellow Bronados. I had the pleasure of playing my bud Ryo on stream at our last smashfest here in Gainesville. If you guys get the chance, I'd love some critique on my match against him. http://www.twitch.tv/gatorgaming/profile/past_broadcasts It's about an hour in. Oh, and if you skip ahead to 2 hours and 41 minutes you can see Ryo play Shulk during Grand Finals. Thanks guys!

 

[Berserker.]

Hello fellow Bronados. I had the pleasure of playing my bud Ryo on stream at our last smashfest here in Gainesville. If you guys get the chance, I'd love some critique on my match against him. http://www.twitch.tv/gatorgaming/profile/past_broadcasts It's about an hour in. Oh, and if you skip ahead to 2 hours and 41 minutes you can see Ryo play Shulk during Grand Finals. Thanks guys!

Holy **** Smash+rage....

Doesn't Ryo use Ike?

@ SGJet I suck at the whole critique business but @ Masonomace can probably help

 

[SGJet]

Yea, Ryo is an Ike main but I requested that he play Shulk lol. @ Masonomace if you get the chance, can you critique my play?

 

[erico9001]

Ever curious what grounded opponents Air Slash works on (both hits)?

Note: The only things that change how high the opponent is hit by air slash are the rage effect, whether or not the opponent is crouching, whether or not the move is tipped, and the position he is in relation to you.
-The opponent's damage does not matter. They can be at 999% and it will work.
-Your Monado Art does not matter at all, except for Monado Jump.
-edit: staling does not matter
-edit: Oh, and DI affects it too.

I will be testing opponents who are standing on level ground.

Shulk at 0%, Air Slash does not work on:
Jigglypuff
Shield Shulk

Shulk at 0%, Jump Air Slash does not work on:
Bowser
Wario
Link
Marth
Ike
Robin
King Dedede
Charizard
Captain Falcon
Monado Jump Shulk
Monado Shield Shulk
Lucina
Mega Man

When rage makes normal air slash stop working:
(It's important you read these as your own percents, not the opponents' percents)

Luigi ~142%
Peach ~110%
Rosalina ~85%
G&W ~55%
Little Mac ~125%
Zelda ~97%
ZSS ~120%
Pit ~149%
Paulutena ~114%
Kirby ~56%
Meta Knight ~128%
Falco ~116%
Pikachu ~75%
Ness ~120%
Villager ~136%
Olimar ~84%
WFT ~139%
Smash Shulk ~140% (note, this is when YOU are at 140% and in any mode but Jump)
Dark Pit ~149%
Pac-Man ~126%

When rage makes Jump air slash stop working:
Jigglypuff ~110%

When rage makes normal air slash start working:
Shield Shulk ~86%

When rage makes Jump air slash start working:
Bowser ~89%
Wario ~57%
Link ~36%
Marth ~35%
Ike ~42%
Robin ~43%
King Dedede ~58%
Charizard ~47%
Captain Falcon ~52%
Monado Jump Shulk ~57%
Shield Shulk: never
Lucina ~35%
Mega Man ~99%

Notes:
Tipping makes the move go lower, meaning the percent at which it starts and stops working are both higher. I did these tests without tipping (although, I'm not fully sure I didn't tip some of the earliest tests). I also use the move as quick as possible; delaying the two hits makes Shulk go higher. Delaying, therefore, raises both the starting and ending percents. Delay the attack at higher percents and don't delay at lower percents.

This is still somewhat of a work in progress for that reason.

 

[Berserker.]

Punishing rolls with f-smash/pivot f-smash feels so good~

D-smash is a lot easier to use against rollers though but in terms of reward (damage), f-smash takes the cake.

 

[Zatchiel]

Punishing rolls with f-smash/pivot f-smash feels so good~

D-smash is a lot easier to use against rollers though but in terms of reward (damage), f-smash takes the cake.

When it comes to punishing rolls with smashes I heavily favor up smash if they roll and end up inside of or behind me, with forward or down smash if they just stay in front of me after their dodge. When I go for killing with pivot f-smash it almost always ends up getting shielded, so I think I use up smash more out of that qualm for punishing rolls. First hit covers a good distance in front of, above, and behind Shulk. Sometimes it pops them out maddeningly enough (forward smash has that problem too iirc) if you hit with either of the disjoints before or behind Shulk, I don't know why that is exactly.

I like down smash at the ledge. I don't prefer it over other options when it comes to elsewhere onstage, usually.

 

[Berserker.]

Remember what I said about pivot f-tilts being capable of punishing in buster or whatever art? It's waaaay easier to punish rolls with speed pivot f-tilt

When it comes to punishing rolls with smashes I heavily favor up smash if they roll and end up inside of or behind me, with forward or down smash if they just stay in front of me after their dodge. When I go for killing with pivot f-smash it almost always ends up getting shielded, so I think I use up smash more out of that qualm for punishing rolls. First hit covers a good distance in front of, above, and behind Shulk. Sometimes it pops them out maddeningly enough (forward smash has that problem too iirc) if you hit with either of the disjoints before or behind Shulk, I don't know why that is exactly.

I like down smash at the ledge. I don't prefer it over other options when it comes to elsewhere onstage, usually.

I also prefer going for u-smash when it comes to punishing rolls. I rarely go for f-smash unless I'm really sure it's going to hit (This means I know my opponent will land at that exact spot). D-smash also conquers the ledge. They either roll or shield and if they shield it at buster, chances are that you might break their shield.

Now you mention d-smash, I do remember some Samus completely avoiding d-smash by rolling. Probably has something to do with her long roll animation. It was hilarious to watch

 

[DavemanCozy]

For the frames, I'm thinking of Shulk lands, shields the next two incoming jabs, and goes for something himself. This would be dependent on the fox doing those two jabs, not realizing that Shield Shulk is going to be able to put up a shield.

I'm not saying Speed should not be able to get out of the combo. It's just that the video does not make things clear about how long the combo lasts and what types of characters are able to get out of the combo through DI.

Just to add to this:
You are right in that It is definetely possible to get out using Shield and grab Fox, but it's just not safe to be in Shield vs Fox overall. Just like it's bad to be in Shield vs characters like Sheik and Diddy who combo you to the ends of the Earth, being on Shield vs Fox is the same idea: you're going to eat a lot of damage. It's even worse vs Fox because he can just laser you, which is relatively safe when you move slower than Ganondorf. So if you are going to use Shield, be sure that you switch off it as soon as you see him run away or launch you in the air, otherwise you're going to eat a lot of damage.

Note also that Fox's second jab moves him forward, so he can push you and himself off the ledge of a platform or even the stage and follow this up with an aerial of his own (including the F-air spike). Yet another reason why I don't recommend Shield, as you could get gimped

 

[Berserker.]

Please read this post and help IF you can. This is regarding buster art attacks' safety on HIT

Thaaaaaaaaanks

 

[Zatchiel]

So, I noticed how Shield is the art I use the least (and the consensus we probably have is that it should be), but after using it to start games off I started to think about why. It feels fine for getting the upper hand against characters that can't just camp us with projectiles, and even if they do it's not like there is no way in against that. I make it in just fine with just walking powershields and using single rolls as a swift movement option (double roll if I predict a roll away from me so I can stay on top of them). If I feel like it'd be too tedious, which it certainly can be, then I opt for Speed or Jump instead. But enough about me. More about this art.

I referred to this table in the OP:

Monado Art | Damage Taken | Damage Dealt | Weight Change | Jump Height | Ground Speed | Air Speed | Fall Speed | Shield Health
盾(Shield) | −33% (0.67×) | −30% (0.7×) | +44 | – | – | – | | +

First thing that got me is that the reduction to damage dealt is a bit larger than I remember. I thought it was somewhere around the same as Speed's damage output multiplier but it's actually a bit worse still. Everything else is as I remember it.

Next, from what I am aware this is generally seen or referred to as our "survival art." I think that turns too much attention to just a morsel of this art's usefulness. It's not just for survival. If it was I think the weight increase and damage output decrease would've been enough. But it lowers damage intake too.

With that in mind I think Shulk in Shield mode at zero might be a huge ***** to punish properly. I was able to counter or escape about everything my opponents threw at me at those lower percents, most noticeably out of grabs. The big chunk of damage you don't take along with the added weight make quite a few combos fail that would otherwise be true at those percents. You can counter, dodge, or use an attack earlier than you would've been able to in any other art.

In terms of movement Shield mode doesn't do anything to affect the speed of you dodges or your attack speed. Dash attack especially shines here because it still thrusts you forward at the same speed and distance. Rolls and dash attack are actually great for maneuvering onstage and punishing rolls away (if they end up to far out for anything else), respectively. And of course, you can switch to a fresh art whenever you want.

tl;dr: I think this stance might be an underrated one. Whoever is reading this: Tell me why you don't use it more than you already do. Anybody. I really want to hear more thoughts about this one. It's slowly becoming one of my favorites. No pun intended.

 

[Masonomace]

I don't have reasons of why I don't use it more, rather I agree that Shield Shulk at very low percentage is magical & can avoid a lot of things & capitalize by landing on the ground by the time they jump for any combos out of a throw such as D-throw > U-air setups. From there you can take your pick by jumping after they do & using an aerial like F-air, N-air, or U-air -- or you can choose to land first & punish with U-tilt or maybe even U-smash (I haven't tried U-smash though, I just thought of that).

On top of those stats in the table, it doesn't mention that Shield has greater shield regeneration, which is very helpful for healing your bubble shield quicker in case you're up against those high shield-damaging moves. And because of our bubble shield being a great tool in Shield, we're likely never shield poked & shield DI solidifies that defense from getting shield poked. A great tool to act out of shield I find is Dash attack for all the right reasons @ Zatchiel mentioned especially when you take a smash attack on your shield & you feel that you can't get there in time to dash-grab punish.

There's also effects reduced by Shield's nature if you don't like getting buried, put to sleep, paralyzed, etc. (don't quote me on this, but I think Shield might reduce the freeze frames from electric attacks [], & the slip effect from forced tripping []. I'll mess with that later on & relay back with anything interesting).

 

[meleebrawler]

Any offensive benefits garnered by Shield (namely increased punish opportunities) are greatly
diminished by the heavily reduced damage, not to mention the slow speed preventing certain followups.
It's very unlikely that using Shield will give you the upper hand except in kill situations. Rather, it is designed
to prevent the enemy from getting a (significant) upper hand on YOU. Which is probably why it's unpopular: ideally
you want to use the art that'll help you get more damage, and shield is rarely the best option for that, since
it hinges on your opponent's actions to reap rewards.

 

[Zatchiel]

Any offensive benefits garnered by Shield (namely increased punish opportunities) are greatly
diminished by the heavily reduced damage, not to mention the slow speed preventing certain followups.

Disagreed. Want to do damage? Grab, throw, buffer deactivation and switch to Buster. Want to get strings going? Do the same thing but switch to Speed or Jump. You can also force them away with up tilt, because if they don't respect that with a jump then they get grabbed or worse.

It's very unlikely that using Shield will give you the upper hand except in kill situations. Rather, it is designed
to prevent the enemy from getting a (significant) upper hand on YOU.

It's very likely actually. Your opponent basically cannot combo you at low percents as opposed to other arts where you would just take damage for getting down thrown or something. Even if you get hit the difference in damage taken is still considerably large. And you don't stay in hitstun nearly as long either.

Just because it's designed for one purpose doesn't exclude it to that one purpose. Ingenuity is great for this character in particular.

ideally
you want to use the art that'll help you get more damage, and shield is rarely the best option for that, since
it hinges on your opponent's actions to reap rewards.

It's not about dealing out heavy damage. It's about aiming to get control of the stage without being the usual combo food at those percents and taking less damage. Use other arts to deal heavy damage and get combos going. Use Shield to become a tank. You still have your incredible range to work with and Vision is still great, if not better in this art because you can use it to break out of follow-ups earlier and it's faster than our aerials so it could have better use as an anti-juggle.

 

[Berserker.]

Let's talk about Shulk's u-tilt and how strange it is. This was brought up in the Shulk hitbox data thread when u-tilt's hitboxes were still not found yet (because it's weird)

The hitbox of u-tilt lingers at the end for a bit which is why I prefer using u-tilt BACKWARDS against opponents on the ledge. If they jump, the lingering hitbox will hit them. If they roll from the ledge, u-tilt will still hit them since they roll past you and they're positioned right in front of you. Since you're using u-tilt backwards, you'll hit them. Reverse u-tilt can be countered by dropping from the ledge then jumping back while attacking or by just attacking from the ledge

Interesting stuff about u-tilt's latter hitboxes. I might be wrong about the latter hitboxes lingering but it's the portion that I take advantage of most of the time when it comes to juggling, anti-airs, ledge trapping