Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[erico9001]

It would of been nice for sure, but Shield mode grants enough utility for me to love it. Stronger shield that regenerates faster while being even heavier than Bowser, & taking less damage? Sign me up please!

And to top it off, while I'm working on this project with Shield mode, Shield also reduces these negative effects:
-paralysis
-sleep
-flower DoT
-freezing
-being buried into the ground

Hallelujah

Is the flower's lowered DoT proportional to the .67x damage Shield Shulk normally takes?
-
New post: I uploaded a video to show off buffering the MA cancel so you can run/jump/walk at the same speeds as the art you were in before cancelling for one dash, jump, or walking input.

I've also recorded a guide to easy landing lag cancelling with MA's, but the upload of that will have to wait until tomorrow.

 

[SGJet]

Masonomace already said this, but I just wanted reiterate how great F-air is for ledge grabbers. If you full hop, you can F-air to react to any option that they do and you'll more than likely clip em with F-air's incredible range. I know this was touched upon a while ago, but I just wanted to make sure it was on everyone's radar.

 

[Berserker.]

I haven't posted here in a while because I've been working on something regarding the buster art so yeah. It'll be posted

soon

 

[erico9001]

It's done.

I'm surprised at how long video editing takes. I have a new found respect for people who do a lot of this. Although, I'm sure most people aren't using freeware (virtualdub/windows movie maker).

@ Masonomace can you stick this in the op?

 

[TheHopefulHero]

You have no idea... Editing is the evil part of video making for many reasons. But it's worth it in the end.
(Love hearing Colony 9 Stuff)
Also, I agree and nominate this as part of the OP for its OPness. (Monado Lag-Cancel!)

Now we might be able to not be afraid of fighting upclose if needed. And this might give us some more combos to experiment with.

 

[Zatchiel]

It's done.

I'm surprised at how long video editing takes. I have a new found respect for people who do a lot of this. Although, I'm sure most people aren't using freeware (virtualdub/windows movie maker).

@ Masonomace can you stick this in the op?

Great video. Before seeing this I wasn't able to do this very consistently with any art other than Jump. I did that out of habit, since I usually switched to Jump out of a short hop or something (while I was in the air) and throwing out an aerial. So I just got the lag cancel without really thinking about it normally.

Still, I practiced this in training for a few minutes and I'm very pleased with the results.

From the ground I was able to get the lag cancel with the other arts best out of a run or a walk, short hopping immediately after I select the art that I want, then fastfalling with the aerial. This can allow you to follow up faster because you aren't spending as much time in the air. Timing is a little different if you're using b-air, which is what was used most in the video demonstrations. If you're using that then you have to switch to the art you want right before you input b-air.

When I was doing this while already being in the air, depending on my position above the stage, there was more of a gut feeling as to when it would and wouldn't be best to fastfall before or during my aerial following my art switch.

To anybody having trouble: It's mainly just muscle memory about art activation, something any Shulk user should be familiar with. Once you understand that you should find this a lot easier to do, at least when you're staring from the ground.

Interesting finds:

-Combined with this technique, first hit u-air combos into a ****load; because of the set knockback it truly combos at literally any percent. Although this might only work well on the taller characters (practiced this against Ganondorf). It's a true kill set-up for f-smash when it comes to them, too. Any character should take an up tilt though at least, or maybe a grab.

-First hit of d-air might be the same way but better when it comes to grounded opponents. I haven't tested that one much so someone else could give that a look-see.

-Doing the lag cancel with Smash near the ledge sets up for low percent edgeguards (especially if you follow up the cancel with a d-smash). Seems like it'd be best against characters with ****ty recoveries but d-air has great power in Smash so you can spike with that to kill astoundingly early regardless.

That's all I've tested so far. This is sick, I can't fathom why I hadn't given it more thought, use, or general experimentation.

 

[Berserker.]

It's done.

I'm surprised at how long video editing takes. I have a new found respect for people who do a lot of this. Although, I'm sure most people aren't using freeware (virtualdub/windows movie maker).

@ Masonomace can you stick this in the op?

This is amazing Erico! Good video. Only correction is that was Jerm's clips but other than that, massive props. I have to mess around with MALLC more.... Can't wait to see what I come up with

 

[Masonomace]

Is the flower's lowered DoT proportional to the .67x damage Shield Shulk normally takes?

Forgot to answer this but yes, the flower's DoT is also lowered by Shield's Defense, therefore the flower naturally goes away faster. On top of the time being asleep reduced by Shield, we all should know who Shield stance hard-counters right?


EDIT: The MALLC strategy is eggcelent. I'm MALLC'ing U-air's 1st hit to setup up instantly to a U-smash poking through the platform for some strong anti-air punishing.

This also goes really well for poking their shield with Buster under platforms, as you watch them take shield-stun from the aerial MALLC'd & follow with U-tilt. This evolves my platform game even more.

 

[Berserker.]

MArts initial animation's invincibility might be a greater asset than I initially expected because of MALLC. I re-watched the segment of Jerm dodging Sonic's grab using MArt's invincible portion. This could be big for us. Now it's a matter of getting MALLC down and integrating it into Shulk's strategies

 

[Zatchiel]

MArts initial animation's invincibility might be a greater asset than I initially expected because of MALLC. I re-watched the segment of Jerm dodging Sonic's grab using MArt's invincible portion. This could be big for us. Now it's a matter of getting MALLC down and integrating it into Shulk's strategies

How many frames of invincibility does art activstion grant? I glanced over the OP and couldn't find anything pertaining to that. It'd be great for killing near the ledge on an opponent trying to shieldgrab us following an aerial (as shown in the video) along with other uses.

 

[Berserker.]

How many frames of invincibility does art activstion grant? I glanced over the OP and couldn't find anything pertaining to that. It'd be great for killing near the ledge on an opponent trying to shieldgrab us following an aerial (as shown in the video) along with other uses.

Now this is something I do not know

But, Nammy does have a GIF of it in action. Idk about the frame count

 

[erico9001]

I'm glad you all like the video! I too think there's a lot of opportunity in this.

This is amazing Erico! Good video. Only correction is that was Jerm's clips but other than that, massive props. I have to mess around with MALLC more.... Can't wait to see what I come up with

Oh. For some reason I mistook them as being the same person . I've tried to fix that in the video with annotations.

MArts initial animation's invincibility might be a greater asset than I initially expected because of MALLC. I re-watched the segment of Jerm dodging Sonic's grab using MArt's invincible portion. This could be big for us. Now it's a matter of getting MALLC down and integrating it into Shulk's strategies

It's hard to tell but invincibility also protected Jerm when he did the MALLC against Paulutena (first clip I showed). I'm super interested in how long this invincibility lasts. Also, I wonder if the invincibility is in the aerial version of the animation too.

Forgot to answer this but yes, the flower's DoT is also lowered by Shield's Defense, therefore the flower naturally goes away faster. On top of the time being asleep reduced by Shield, we all should know who Shield stance hard-counters right?


EDIT: The MALLC strategy is eggcelent. I'm MALLC'ing U-air's 1st hit to setup up instantly to a U-smash poking through the platform for some strong anti-air punishing.

This also goes really well for poking their shield with Buster under platforms, as you watch them take shield-stun from the aerial MALLC'd & follow with U-tilt. This evolves my platform game even more.

Oh so on top of damage over time being cut, the time it is on the head is also? Cool. Jiggs also gives a flower when she uses rest, so there's even more against her.

I never thought of doing just the first hit of Uair (@ Zatchiel ). That seems really good. Dair should work too, as long as you time it or fast fall to make sure the second hit doesn't come out.

 

[Nammy12]

I was doing a bit of testing with the invincibility frames on startup of MA.
Some confirmation of this would be nice.
I think that the invincibility starts when the art flashes behind you. Before that there's 1 frame when Shulk reaches for the Monado.
I'll do a bit more testing but I'm pretty sure invincibility lasts for about 14/15 frames (before his animation finishes).

 

[erico9001]

I was doing a bit of testing with the invincibility frames on startup of MA.
Some confirmation of this would be nice.
I think that the invincibility starts when the art flashes behind you. Before that there's 1 frame when Shulk reaches for the Monado.
I'll do a bit more testing but I'm pretty sure invincibility lasts for about 14/15 frames (before his animation finishes).

I wonder if it's a different amount of frames for the different Monado Art activations. Probably not, but worth checking into I think. Also, we should check out the aerial activation animation too.
-
New post:

We should get in the habit of never doing the stopping or turning around animations (dashing). If we are cycling through our Monado Arts, they will activate before we can begin to move again. However, if we use the ability to throw up the shield while dashing to stop, we can unshield and continue to cycle through our monado arts.

Another alternative is to instead SH from the dash. This works for turning around, but is not great for general stopping.

In addition to the ability to keep cycling through Monado Arts, you have more options if you stop via the shield. You're also protected from enemy attacks, unlike the normal stopping animation.

Furthermore, while in Monado Speed, the 'stop dashing' animation has a very slow braking speed. The shield is actually much better for braking in Monado Speed. In fact, shielding while dashing in Monado Speed has a lesser slide distance than doing it in Neutral Shulk! This suggests that Monado Speed Shulk actually has greater friction than Vanilla Shulk, despite its speed. I tested it out just now in 1/4x training speed with fixed camera. This also explains why there's a larger sliding distance with that Monado Speed Cancelled walking thing I showed in the other video I posted here (the first one where you hear me talk).

Since I'm in FD let's get a measurement on that.

Speed mode walking slide distance: 1/7 FD
Speed mode cancelled walking slide distance: 1/4 FD (almost exactly)

1/4 FD is pretty nice considering you can do a sliding F-Smash from it, which adds even more range. Using F-Smash you can hit an opponent who is at the training mode spawn point if you start sliding from the middle of FD.

 

[Masonomace]

I have two bulky-ish topics to post (I always derail the current topic I swear ).
════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
Alright, so, I have some kinda juicy information about Shulk's overall jump height stats in ties with the Monado Arts including Customs too.

I created a custom stage to test one's Vertical Height consisting of an 18 block-wide floor with 29 soft-platforms. Which ever platform Shulk lands on rated how high he could recover from the ground or the air.

Spoiler: Key

DJump = Decisive Jump
DSpeed = Decisive Speed
DShield = Decisive Shield
HJump = Hyper Jump
HSpeed = Hyper Speed
HShield = Hyper Shield
SH = Short Hop
FH = Full Hop
DJ = Double Jump
LJ = Ledge Jump
SJ = Shield Jump (when your shield breaks)
AS1 = 1st hit of Air Slash
AS2 = 2nd hit of Air Slash
MAS1 = 1st hit of Mighty Air Slash
MAS2 = 2nd hit of Mighty Air Slash
AAS1 = 1st hit of Advancing Air Slash
AAS2 = 2nd hit of Advancing Air Slash
BS = Back Slash
BSL = Back Slash Leap
BSC = Back Slash Charge

Move | Vanilla | Jump | DJump | HJump | Speed | DSpeed | HSpeed | Shield | DShield | HShield
SH | 3 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 2
FH | 7 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 5 | 5 | 4
DJ | 6 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 5 | 5 | 4
LJ | 7 | 9 | 8 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 6 | 7 | 7 | 7
SJ | 8 | 6 | 5 | 5 | 8 | 7 | 7 | 8 | 8 | 8
AS1 | 9 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9
AS2 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 2
AAS1 | 9 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9
AAS2 | -5 | -5 | -5 | -5 | -5 | -5 | -5 | -5 | -5 | -5
MAS1 | 11 | 14 | 16 | 17 | 11 | 11 | 11 | 11 | 11 | 11
MAS2 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 3

BS | 2
BSL | 5
BSC | 1 or 2

Notes:

• BS & BSC can hit a fighter standing on the first level platform on Battlefield
• BSL can land perfectly on top of the first level platforms on Battlefield (This is important because BSL deals the rogue 18% guaranteed if hitting someone from behind, & can ALMOST break a full shield with HBuster active.)
• AAS is horizontal hotness despite the huge vertical height reduction from the 2nd slash
• MAS + HJump = you'll come back surviving any Meteor smash dealt to you (Not really, but seriously, THAT HEIGHT)

════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
Some Info About Buster
Jab-3 btw does have a sourspot & can whiff on characters even when they DI or don't DI.

Jab-1 & Jab-2 whiff on these crouched characters:

• 
  
• (He whiffs Jab-2 if the Greninja is holding down, so it looks like Shulk is command walking. This is hilarious imho XD)
  
• 
  
• 
  
• 
  
• (He sometimes gets hit by Jab-1, sometimes not)
  
• / (Can get hit by Jab-1 if at a closer range)
  
• 
  
• 
  
• /

Jab-1 & Jab-2 whiff on these crawling characters:

• 
• 
• /
• 

Honorable Taunt Mention:

• (His side taunt can avoid Jab-1 & Jab-2)
• / (Their down taunt can avoid Jab-1 & Jab-2)

Now for characters that naturally avoid our Jab combo, that'll be what seals this discussion. Automatically we think of the lightest characters in this game so let's list them off from heaviest to lightest, but first let me say that the Weight & Falling speed including other factors do affect the outcome of a character escaping the full Jab combo.
For instance, Sheik is tied with Zelda for having the same light weight, but Sheik has a much greater falling speed than Zelda, so Sheik can't escape the Jab combo as easily (she can't escape the Jab combo really).

If any character has a light weight & fast falling speed, they'll still be hit by the full Jab combo, & these characters are that category:

Lightweight (Source) Heavyfallers (Source)

• 
  
• 
  
• 
  
• 
  
• 
  
• 
  
• : He's not a Heavyfaller, but this guy gets consistently hit by full Jab combo, it's just that you're mostly going to be dealing the Jab-3 sourspot (5.88%) damage within the Jab combo (15.68%) even if they DI upward or not no matter the distance your Jab-1 connects. Olimar starts avoiding Jab combo around 100% since he can hold up on the analog during Jab-1 > Jab-2 & can escape Jab-3.
  
• 

And that's where it stops afaik.

Here we have the threats that Buster Jab combo can't consistently connect all three hits on at 0% without DI:

• 
  
• (Exception: At 0% Kirby can avoid a spaced Jab-3 if he holds up on the analog stick during the Jab combo)
  
• 
  
• Hyper Smash

A solution to this can be delaying Jab-3 right after Jab-2 connects, since Jab-2 would knock them up too high for Jab-3 to normally string together into the full Jab combo. Other than that, I got nothing.

 

[Doomlion]

Greetings fellow Shulk mains, new to Smashboards, so please be kind if you can. ;-;

I was doing some messing around with the sliding properties of Speed Shulk in training mode, and I found that a pivot cancel FSmash is actually pretty decent in neutral game or for a punish on someone who's dash happy.

But I was thinking, would it be possible to use it as an edgeguarding tool after challenging someone with a SH Nair? The spacing created by the slide is just enough to be able to hit them with a downward FSmash on the ledge if they don't have the invul frames, and it's good for punishing air dodges with how delayed the hitboxes on it can be.

Just wanted to throw that out there for the more experienced Monado wielders to test out. :O

 

[kenniky]

Honorable Taunt Mention:
(His side taunt can avoid Jab-1 & Jab-2)

I believe down taunt also makes her/him about as short as crouching. Although not entirely sure why this would happen.

 

[Masonomace]

For another quick educational fact about the MArts, they also affect the mobility of our wall-tech-jump. To put this in perspective, I created a stage 23 blocks wide meeting a wall that goes 23 blocks high, & used Captain Falcon's D-tilt hitting Shulk at the right percentage to launch him near the 1st soft-platform's starting point & went from there. I did this in Training Mode at 1/4x speed to see exactly where I collide against the wall to help better my judgement for the wall-tech-jump height for whichever platform Shulk lands on. Anyway, here are the results:

Vanilla = 5
Jump = 3
Speed = 5
Shield = 4

And despite not showing Decisive Arts or Hyper Arts results, they're as you would expect, worse than these results. I think HJump's tech-jump height was like, 2 or something, so yeah.

I believe down taunt also makes her/him about as short as crouching. Although not entirely sure why this would happen.

What can I say? She dips loooooooow to the ground, but thanks for this reply. I added her to the Honorable Mentions

Greetings fellow Shulk mains, new to Smashboards, so please be kind if you can. ;-;

I was doing some messing around with the sliding properties of Speed Shulk in training mode, and I found that a pivot cancel FSmash is actually pretty decent in neutral game or for a punish on someone who's dash happy.

But I was thinking, would it be possible to use it as an edgeguarding tool after challenging someone with a SH Nair? The spacing created by the slide is just enough to be able to hit them with a downward FSmash on the ledge if they don't have the invul frames, and it's good for punishing air dodges with how delayed the hitboxes on it can be.

Just wanted to throw that out there for the more experienced Monado wielders to test out. :O

Welcome to Smashboards, & Thanks for Joining~

I was messing around with this & thought it was neat. The spacing from the slide Speed does to the Pivot canceled F-smash while angling it downward is pretty nice. We'd have to be right at the ledge area, but it can probably punish a ledge-climb, ledge-attack, & ledge-roll option too. The only option I'm cautious of is the ledge-jump option but perhaps it could still hit if both parties input their options early.

The catch to this option is not using both hits of F-smash but rather the sourspot area of F-smash's 2nd hit (the Beam shooting outside the range of the 1st hitting Blade) to edge-guard with, which is fine in my book.

 

[Berserker.]

I've been using buster a LOT recently. It's probably because of what I'm cooking up but anyway, buster has become a big core in my strategy.

If I'm up against a zoner, use speed to get into the right position. Speed doesn't get me into the correct position? Use jump then. Once I get close enough, use buster. If I'm up against a close combat fighter, I'll still go for buster. Against heavies... HMM... I usually go for speed then buster. If I mess up with buster art, I just stick to shield. If they try to stall shield out, cool that's fine. Let me get my buster off cooldown while you stall. If they try to assault me in shield, play defensively, take advantage of the shield health. They're at mid percentage which usually signals to them jump combos so this is basically a decision on when I should go for the off stage combo with jump art or just keep damaging with buster. Once they're at KO percentage, use either smash or jump art.

If buster ****s up, I'd just go for speed. Despite it being less safe, being able to use f-air while moving around in mid-air is amazing for Shulk. I don't rush down that much with speed. I still try to zone or play at mid range. I don't have to explain how godlike boost pivots are. Haha

So, I've been actually dabbling with MArts cancel. It's awkward to try to use at first and it still kind of is but it does help A LOT in KO'ing. I don't see this being used for combos at the moment but using this to KO is legit thanks to the invincibility on some of the frames of the activation

 

[Zatchiel]

I've been using buster a LOT recently. It's probably because of what I'm cooking up but anyway, buster has become a big core in my strategy.

Same here. I still don't normally start the game with it though, I tend to wait until after I get about 20% on my opponent with vanilla or a different art.

Some combinations I use are:

Jump/Speed -> Buster -> Jump

Vanilla -> Buster -> Jump

Buster -> Jump/Speed (I prefer Jump) -> Smash (if it's "safe")/Shield (if Smash isn't)

Buster -> Smash works fine too, although that might work best against lightweights.

In any situation that I'm not using Buster at low or mid percents I often just wait until I've gotten them offstage then switch to it. You can deliver devastating punishments that way. Or if you get them in the air and expect an airdodge, you can switch to the art while they are airborne and punish with a grab or up/forward smash. If you time it right, the art will activate before or during your punish.

They're at mid percentage which usually signals to them jump combos so this is basically a decision on when I should go for the off stage combo with jump art or just keep damaging with buster.

If they are at mid percents, and aren't a heavyweight, I think it's arguably better to go for Jump.

Out of Jump the consequences for landing a good punish on your opponent could be lethal, since all you have to do is get them in the air and keep them there, while essentially being able to be anywhere you want thanks to your aerial mobility. You aim for overwhelming them with aerial pressure to get your kill.

While if you stay in Buster, it might take a bit more effort since you can't pursue them as efficiently. I feel like it's better to stay in Buster against the heavier characters though, since you're gonna want to continue tacking on that extra damage unless you think you can gimp them.

 

[Berserker.]

I love jump so much but I feel like when you flop with this art, you can REALLY feel the flop. It's almost as worse as getting KO'd in smash art which you should honestly not feel bad about since you can KO them at your new stock. You really have to learn how to dance in the air, tomahawk, fake approaches, and go for the open punishes. The 22% defense debuff really hurts but hey, at least you have a good shot at gimping them or combo'ing them

 

[Zatchiel]

So last week, while I was messing around with the Monado Art l-cancel, I found out that the second hit of up air allows it to truly combos into itself in Jump. Didn't think it was worth mentioning because it didn't seem exactly "relevant" and I figured you guys probably already knew about it anyway. To clarify, I don't mean using the l-cancel with Jump to get the combo (although for obvious reasons that wouldn't hurt anything).

But this morning I thought back on it and decided to see just how far this combo could go percent-wise, and I found out something hilarious: It can kill.

It starts killing Falcon from around 75% and it still works anywhere within a 30% range beyond that (no rage). We have the power to kill the heavies very early with this. It can work on the shortest characters from the ground too but that's a bit harder to do; although it does kill them even earlier.

To my knowledge, up air is one of our least used moves so it should be fine for killing, and this is a really good way for it to serve that purpose. It seems to work fine regardless of stage choice, but the ceiling height is a factor in how early it kills.

Just tried it out on Battlefield. On either side platform, if you short hop and immediately up air from beneath them, both hits of that up air can connect to give you a 4 hit combo instead of 3. I think I got it to work without fast falling once or twice but you should fast fall after the up air asap if you want to follow up with another.

 

[Berserker.]

HMMMM

Alright, bear with me in this. I suck at explaining. Something again about the MArts activation animation

Have buster, shield, or smash ready. Keep dashing. JUST keep dashing. Once the art activates, your dashing SHOULD be halted for a sliding animation. Usually if you continue to keep the control stick forward, you'd dash but nope. The animation resets you back to walking position. ANYWAY, once the activation animation begins, use grab/f-smash/u-smash/d-smash. You're going to slide while doing any of the mentioned moves. I don't know the EXACT timing but you can also boost backward while doing the mentioned moves by flicking the stick backwards and inputting the command at that direction

Trying to do a sliding f-smash with jump or speed will only result in a halted f-smash. Not sure about this but this is what I got

 

[erico9001]

HMMMM

Alright, bear with me in this. I suck at explaining. Something again about the MArts activation animation

Have buster, shield, or smash ready. Keep dashing. JUST keep dashing. Once the art activates, your dashing SHOULD be halted for a sliding animation. Usually if you continue to keep the control stick forward, you'd dash but nope. The animation resets you back to walking position. ANYWAY, once the activation animation begins, use grab/f-smash/u-smash/d-smash. You're going to slide while doing any of the mentioned moves. I don't know the EXACT timing but you can also boost backward while doing the mentioned moves by flicking the stick backwards and inputting the command at that direction

Trying to do a sliding f-smash with jump or speed will only result in a halted f-smash. Not sure about this but this is what I got

F-smash is a weird one to slide because you must flick it or it stops.

I get Jump and Speed to slide. However, Speed has higher friction. Without the extra velocity that Monado Speed usually would give you, the art actually has a lesser slide distance.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

FSmash and DSmash are so damn bad. When I switch to Smash, it's at around 90%. At this point I either go for a corner DThrow kill, Fair off the stage, or run-in punish with USmash.

 

[Berserker.]

FSmash and DSmash are so damn bad. When I switch to Smash, it's at around 90%. At this point I either go for a corner DThrow kill, Fair off the stage, or run-in punish with USmash.

F-smash and d-smash are good. D-smash destroys rolls/spot dodges and it's one of your go-to options against cornered opponents. F-smash is great especially when you pivot it to make your opponents GTFO (With buster, 25-27% damage. Delicious). For KO'ing though, I rarely use f-smash outside punishing. D-smash is one of the attacks I use more for KO'ing along with b-throw/d-throw/u-smash since it has insane knockback even on its second hit.

You can also combo n-air into f-smash or f-tilt at certain percentages. This is great especially with buster activated

 

[MDAVE]

I agree with berserker01, the Monadorator.

F-smash and D-smash are pretty good. Down smash is one of those moves that counter rolling, as mentioned above, and spot dodges, something that helps a LOT. Our F-smash just has so much power. The Monado makes us so powerful thanks to all those second hits in the U-smash and F-smash. U-air and D-air also have a second hit iirc.

 

[Masonomace]

Ledge-trumping someone & then getting on the stage to prepare a downward angled F-smash rewards nicely for when they come back grabbing the ledge. Whether it's used for punishing damage (Buster) or for sealing the stock (Smash), or even more ledge-guarding (Jump or Speed), F-smash's 2nd hit will do it.

 

[Berserker.]

Hmmm.... Isn't this thread quiet. I wonder why?

 

[foolssigma]

@ erico9001 Love the videos. Have you seen any of Jerm's? Now I need to find the time to play some games and test out some new Shulk strategies.

Ledge-trumping someone & then getting on the stage to prepare a downward angled F-smash rewards nicely for when they come back grabbing the ledge. Whether it's used for punishing damage (Buster) or for sealing the stock (Smash), or even more ledge-guarding (Jump or Speed), F-smash's 2nd hit will do it.

I have trouble hitting people with the angled d-smash from the ledge when they recover. I try not to do it too often, but I'm guessing its my timing and not so much my placement. I typically stand a tad towards the stage.

I noticed Shulk's dair spikes through the ledge of gaur plains, battlefield and either Town and city or smashville thus far. Great way to finish off stocks if you time it right

 

[Berserker.]

I don't want to encourage being campy with speed but it's potentially a thing. It's only something I thought of now but I haven't tried it yet. Like dash to them then shield. They throw out an attack, boost pivot grab and destroy them. They didn't bite? Jump out of shield, fast fall, try again. The idea of this actually working is neat but somewhat lame. I think @ChronoPenguin said something about this because I'm getting Sonic feels here and I'm almost sure he said something about speed Shulk being played like Sonic (Correct if I'm wrong, Chrono)

I've tried purely running buster/speed. Like rack up damage with buster, then speed then buster then KO with speed when their % is at like 150%+ with a boost pivot grab to b-throw off the edge. It works but god it consumes time. Anyway, if you guys tried this but it didn't work then feel free to say no


Edit: Feel free to say that this **** doesn't work. Ty

 

[Masonomace]

I have trouble hitting people with the angled d-smash from the ledge when they recover. I try not to do it too often, but I'm guessing its my timing and not so much my placement. I typically stand a tad towards the stage.

I noticed Shulk's dair spikes through the ledge of gaur plains, battlefield and either Town and city or smashville thus far. Great way to finish off stocks if you time it right

It's also character-dependent. Not every character can be hit by a downward angled F-smash, while hanging on the ledge. So for the characters you can't F-smash from afar, a well-placed D-air can either Meteor with the 2nd hit, or be the sourspot capable of stage-spiking.

EDIT:

Other options I explored using for ledge-trumping are B-air from the front, & Air Slash.

 

[Berserker.]

If they're already near the ledge, don't try going for the f-smash. Just let them do anything from the ledge and counter that option. Shulk has a lot of answers against ledge options anyway

 

[Zatchiel]

I don't want to encourage being campy with speed but it's potentially a thing. It's only something I thought of now but I haven't tried it yet. Like dash to them then shield. They throw out an attack, boost pivot grab and destroy them. They didn't bite? Jump out of shield, fast fall, try again. The idea of this actually working is neat but somewhat lame. I think @ChronoPenguin said something about this because I'm getting Sonic feels here and I'm almost sure he said something about speed Shulk being played like Sonic (Correct if I'm wrong, Chrono)

I've tried purely running buster/speed. Like rack up damage with buster, then speed then buster then KO with speed when their % is at like 150%+ with a boost pivot grab to b-throw off the edge. It works but god it consumes time. Anyway, if you guys tried this but it didn't work then feel free to say no


Edit: Feel free to say that this **** doesn't work. Ty

I was guessing this mindset for Speed Shulk was more prevalent than I thought. It's how I play with the art most of the time unless I've conditioned them to stop shielding against my approaches out of respect for his pivot grab. In that case I can start using n-air and get a lengthy string going off of that.

I think our best kill move in Speed is undoubtedly up smash. Make them afraid of our dash-in grabs and read their dodges. If you read correctly you can get a nice charge on the up smash and kill a lot of the cast at around 100%. And JC up smash with this art is soooooo ****ing good. Seriously. Another solid kill setup you mentioned is dash grab/pivot grab -> f-throw or d-throw/b-throw, which can lead into an immediate (buffered) art deactivation followed by an optional switch to another one to go for killing/gimping.

Something else to keep in mind is run -> Vision. If they are responding to your rush-down on the ground with any aggression this is a satisfying way to deal with it while also reminding them what we have that option for them to respect.

 

[Berserker.]

Oh right. You can opt for vision also from dash. Shulk has a lot of options with speed art's mobility boost haha

Edit: I felt like I've repeated myself at this part of my post so EH, I removed this part

I feel like shield might have the potential to be a great art to retreat to when you're at a disadvantage but characters like Sheik (F-air) and Rosalina (U-air) make me think otherwise. The increased defense really helps in reducing the reward for successfully breaking into Shulk's zone

 

[Masonomace]

I don't want to encourage being campy with speed but it's potentially a thing. It's only something I thought of now but I haven't tried it yet. Like dash to them then shield. They throw out an attack, boost pivot grab and destroy them. They didn't bite? Jump out of shield, fast fall, try again. The idea of this actually working is neat but somewhat lame. I think @ChronoPenguin said something about this because I'm getting Sonic feels here and I'm almost sure he said something about speed Shulk being played like Sonic (Correct if I'm wrong, Chrono)

I've tried purely running buster/speed. Like rack up damage with buster, then speed then buster then KO with speed when their % is at like 150%+ with a boost pivot grab to b-throw off the edge. It works but god it consumes time. Anyway, if you guys tried this but it didn't work then feel free to say no

Edit: Feel free to say that this **** doesn't work. Ty

Hey man, with all that quick movement that Speed has I wouldn't put it past Speed Shulk for being campy. I'm pretty sure Speed mode was speculated to feel familiar to Sonic / C.Falcon-esque since September. I'll have to try out the pure Speed / Buster cycle, as I have my own duo Art combo I run: Shield / Jump. A nice yet weird mix-up I've done a few times is walking / dashing / running as Vanilla Shulk while cycling to Jump when I approach them to make them think I'll jump around & try to FF & grab, & when I get close I cycle to Speed again & let it self-activate & I get off a surprising pivot grab, going from there.

I won't say no until I give every instance a yes first .

I feel like shield might have the potential to be a great art to retreat to when you're at a disadvantage but characters like Sheik (F-air) and Rosalina (U-air) make me think otherwise. The increased defense really helps in reducing the reward for successfully breaking into Shulk's zone

Normally I'd say it's half & half, but I'm coming to find that holding your ground & being a yellow turtle with better shield regeneration makes your bubble shield that much stronger than any other shield. Taking your time to walk + perfect shield needles or star bits / Luma makes our yellow turtle's Defense a nice offense, & always getting into the habit of crouching a hit in Shield mode can act out of knockback / hit-stun that much quicker for reacting faster.

 

[Berserker.]

Details on Link's jab infinite vs Shulk

Courtesy of @ Fox Is Openly Deceptive

-Shulk: Works from 70%.

Mario can double Jump out at 0%. Clearly it helps if they are forced to land. We'll be seeing a lot of this I'd wager. Actually, I'll just list all the characters who, along with Mario, can double jump to escape this at 0% right here.
Luigi, Peach, Yoshi, Rosalina, Bowser Jr (your DJ will get Jabbed if you don't immediately airdodge, and if you mess it up you're in a tough spot), Wario, DK, GnW can Up-B out (DJ gets Jabbed), Mac, Link, Zelda, Tink, Samus, Pit, Marth, Ike, Robin, DHD, Kirby, DDD, Pikachu (DJ gets Jabbed but Pika can Up-B after that to avoid the next Jab or just DJ immediately airdodge), Lucario, Jiggs, ROB (DJ gets Jabbed but ROB can Up-B after to avoid the next Jab or just DJ immediately airdodge), Ness (will get the DJ jabbed unless you immediately airdodge (if you mess it up you're screwed)), Villager, Olimar, WFT, Shulk (even in shield stance), Dr Mario, Dark Pit, Lucina, Pac-Man, Sonic (DJ will get Jabbed, so just DJ and immediately airdodge or Up-B out), Gunner/Sword (DJ will get Jabbed but you can Up-B after to get out or just DJ and airdodge immediately)

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

It's not an infinite, not nearly. The effectiveness of it relies to a large degree on how fast the character falls and how heavy they are. Only some characters have this work on them up until kill percents. With Shulk you're looking at maybe 10 to 20% strings (depending on how it ends) by the looks of it otherwise you'll be popped up too high; though keep in mind that the same string can be re-attempted after with similar results due to staling. I'm not convinced (just yet) that it could combo you from 70% into a kill move that will kill. (Shield stance on the other hand, who knows. Btw, what other stances affect weight/fall speed/knockback? Is it just shield and smash? I don't know much about Shulk unfortunately.)
Things are still early days so you'll have to forgive the lack of certainty.

 

[Berserker.]

Buster and jump have an effect on Shulk's weight despite the arts not directly nerfing weight. This is because of the additional damage taken by Shulk (Both arts increase damage taken. Jump increases it by 22% and buster increases it by 13%). Additional damage = More knockback taken

Smash and shield have a direct effect towards weight

Speed and vanilla has no effect

 

[Masonomace]

@ Fox Is Openly Deceptive The Jump Art also increases Shulk's falling speed, which I can see Jump Shulk getting combo'd for it. On the other hand, Jump's increased air speed may help for escaping in between the jab hits, hmmm.