Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[Zatchiel]

What about Ike? Does countering Quick Draw do anything? It seems like it would, given that Quick Draw stalls Ike for a second

tbh one of the things on my todo list is to gimp Ike with either the Substitute doll or Duck Hunt's Wild Gunmen

Offstage? Yes. Onstage? Possibly not depending on where he aims to go.

I don't know for sure, but I'm thinking Ike can fast fall to escape the time distortion field and avoid the counterattack if Shulk does Vision in the air/offstage. If he's too far offstage though that would mean death for Ike if he didn't have a second jump. Again, I'm just guessing. Probably doesn't work.

Vision can deal with Quickdraw pretty reliably, while a slew of our other options deal with Aether. Ike and Shulk really can **** each other up offstage.

 

[Neo Zero]

Ike can attack post quick draw swing though, so he could potentially not only avoid it, but also punish you right after I'd assume.

 

[Berserker.]

I'm pretty sure vision edgeguarding works on PKT2 , although Ness' recovery angle has to be vertical or diagonal. It's much easer though with power vision

Edit: Latter part of PKT2 needs to be countered

 

[Zatchiel]

So I think I've brought this up before on a few occasions, but I don't think I've publicly built on it yet. Might be common knowledge at this point. I haven't seen it discussed so I don't know. You all probably do it already to some extent without even realizing it.

Regardless, this could be a very useful piece of knowledge for a Shulk player of literally any level.

If you pick an art and meanwhile get a punish with a grab or certain attacks before the art activates (meaning the attacks are implicitly normals), you can maximize the punishment once it does. I'll try to illustrate.

Select Monado Art -> Trap opponent before it activates (with grab or the first hit of a natural combo) -> Torture them (with your enhancements once the art does)

With that in mind I'll just refer to this tactic as TnT. If the tactic itself catches on (or already has) I don't care if that name sticks; you guys can call it whatever you'd like. I think "trap and torture" sounds kinda grim without context.

There is a big difference in just how effective this can be depending on how you use it and what art you equip. For sake of readership I'm not going to break it down too much in this post.

Method of TnT and arts that are affected positively

• Natural combos: Buster and Smash
• Grab: Jump, Speed, Buster, and Smash

For natural combos, I just mean single attacks that have consecutive hits. Up smash and forward smash are the best examples, and the most useful. You can trap them with the first hit and have the later hit(s) deal immensely buffed damage or knockback. I don't think you should click it before you finish this paragraph, but here's a demonstration with forward smash. The first f-smash doesn't use TnT (Buster art activates just slightly before), while the second f-smash does (Smash art activates during).

For grabs... that's just it. You have them in a grab, and you now have an art on. An art that grants you greater punish potential in some way. You can probably kill them in Smash art, you can deal tons of damage in Buster, and with the other two arts I listed you can combo.

Certain arts can either negatively affect this tactic or have marginal benefit when combined with it, depending on how they are used. But in general, this is just another great way to transition out of vanilla, or proceed from one art to the next in a resourceful manner. Next to MALLC this is probably one of the best uses for vanilla that we possess.

Feedback or questions are welcome as always.

 

[Berserker.]

Hooray for more contributions :D

Also, me and Locke had a short talk about Smash art:

Notes on MADC (Monado Art Dash cancelling/It sounds dumb when you say the acronym out loud)

You want a dash attack? Here's the best you got because our dash attack is garbage. Not back slash level of garbage but it's really bad. MADC solves this issue. You either get a frame 5 dash attack (jab), frame 12 (f-tilt) or a frame 10 (d-tilt/u-tilt) dash attack. Or you can have a smash attack for a replacement dash attack. But whatever.

They all have uses and it gets deeper when arts are involved

Colors:
- Applies for all arts
- Applies for jump
- Applies for smash

Jab combo
- When you're up close since it's Shulk's fastest option up close (frame 5)

F-tilt
- Spacing
- Punishing
- KO'ing the opponent

D-tilt
- Spacing
- Punishing (longer range than f-tilt)

U-tilt
- Catching opponents in mid-air
- Combo'ing after u-tilt
- KO'ing the opponent

F-smash
- Punishing
- KO'ing the opponent

U-smash
- Catching opponents in mid-air
- KO'ing the opponent

D-smash
- Punishing rolls
- KO'ing the opponent (except in buster art)

 

[Masonomace]

One thing I've been playing around with is ledge trumping. I'd like to hear what others think of it.

I've mainly been working on trumping the ledge right when they recover to it, then using the very few frames of commitment from a ledge trump done right away to reverse air slash. I had someone help me test it and I find especially in Smash I can kill really really early even without rage. It feels really solid.

This sounds fantastic. It's not news to me but this is a refreshing reminder. Only problem for Mighty Air Slash is that it won't reach but eh. I'll work on this now that you've mentioned it Neo. And welcome back btw

Advancing Air Slash will not be able to survive doing this, but ledge trumps don't occur often enough to make that much of a loss.

Because I know howmuch you adore AAS, I'm here to clarify that it does work with Advancing Air Slash. Once you reverse the AAS's direction (let's say you do it on the left ledge facing left with AAS), you have to hold in the opposite direction (in this case you hold to the right after inputting AAS to the left) & slightly delay the 2nd hit of AAS. If you have troubles with this, a Jump Art helps due to reaching higher but maybe the hits won't connect. And a Speed Art help solve the issue too.

 

[erico9001]

This sounds fantastic. It's not news to me but this is a refreshing reminder. Only problem for Mighty Air Slash is that it won't reach but eh. I'll work on this now that you've mentioned it Neo. And welcome back btw

Because I know howmuch you adore AAS, I'm here to clarify that it does work with Advancing Air Slash. Once you reverse the AAS's direction (let's say you do it on the left ledge facing left with AAS), you have to hold in the opposite direction (in this case you hold to the right after inputting AAS to the left) & slightly delay the 2nd hit of AAS. If you have troubles with this, a Jump Art helps due to reaching higher but maybe the hits won't connect. And a Speed Art help solve the issue too.

Oh so it can! I was testing this using the method of doing RAS where you do a normal input at the start,and then move the joystick over to the side you wish to face quickly, turning you around. This causes me to go out farther, though. So, I guess it's doable, just really hard by my method.

 

[Neo Zero]

Does it still combo if you delay the second hit of AAS though? (which reminds me, I need to actually get Shulk's customs lol)

 

[Masonomace]

Maximum Horizontal Range​

Note: All of Shulk's moves are listed from farthest to shortest. I used a custom stage I created to help assist with this, & used the Crate item to better determine the results. Not even Wii Fit Trainer was the greatest example to use the first time for this.

Note: I only measured the range of Shulk's moves by the farthest they could reach aka the Beam aka the Sourspot in most cases (Exceptions like NAir are loved & appreciated, because NAir, you break the B & B "rule"<3. I also did not test move techniques like Jump Canceled Vision).

1. Back Slash Charge sliding hit-box as Shulk with any Art excluding all 3 Speed Arts
2. Back Slash Charge sliding hit-box as Speed Shulk / DSpeed Shulk / HSpeed Shulk
3. Dash Vision counterattack (This basically looks like a disjointed Tipper hit-box, but it's the sourspot)
4. Advancing Air Slash 2nd hit
5. Power Vision counterattack
6. Vision counterattack
7. Back Slash landing Tipper hit
8. Instant Dash Attack as Speed Shulk
9. Instant Dash attack as Vanilla Shulk / Jump Shulk / Buster Shulk / Smash Shulk
10. Instant Dash Attack as Shield Shulk
11. Back Slash Leap landing Tipper hit
12. Forwarded Dash Vision counterattack
13. Air Slash 2nd hit
14. FSmash 2nd hit without angling
15. Full Jab Combo (Rapidly tapping A)
16. FSmash 2nd hit angled downward & upward
17. BAir from behind
18. Forwarded Vision counterattack
19. Forwarded Power Vision counterattack
20. FThrow collateral 3% hit
21. Air Slash grounded 1st hit AND Advancing Air Slash grounded 1st hit
22. DSmash 3rd hit from the front (It's actually the 5th hit of DSmash)
23. DTilt
24. FSmash 1st hit angled upward
25. FAir
26. FSmash 1st hit without angling
27. FTilt
28. FSmash 1st hit angled downward
29. DSmash 2nd hit from the back (it's actually the 4th hit of DSmash)
30. DSmash 1st hit from the back (it's actually the 2nd hit of DSmash)
31. DSmash 1st hit from the front
32. DSmash 2nd hit from the front (it's actually the 3rd hit of DSmash)
33. Mighty Air Slash 2nd hit
34. Jab-1 > Jab-2
35. Ledge Attack from the ledge
36. NAir from the front
37. BThrow collateral 3% hit from behind
    
38. Mighty Air Slash grounded 1st hit
39. Jab-1
40. NAir from behind
41. UTilt
42. USmash Front Ground-Hitting knock-up
43. BAir front-facing hit
44. Standing Grab
45. USmash Back Ground-Hitting knock-up
46. DAir
47. UAir

Heads up. So you guys remember the MHR aka Maximum Horizontal Range test right? So here's a MVR of Shulk's attacks.

Maximum Vertical Range (Finished)​

Note: Instead of a numbers list going from the longest to shortest range, I'll rate a move's MVR by stars. 1★ means the 1st platform, so the more stars a move has beside it, the higher the MVR. I used a stage I created to help test the MVR along with using the Barrel item that I would set on top of a platform to designate as the "sandbag" to hit. Shulk for most of this experiment will be starting from the stage's floor while trying to hit the Barrel above on a platform, but I'll include a bonus MVR showing the moves Shulk can hit below him too.

Note: The Jump Art, Decisive Jump Art, & Hyper Jump Art all increase the vertical height therefore increasing the vertical hit-box range of Air Slash, Advancing Air Slash, & Mighty Air Slash. So don't be surprised to see Hyper Jump Shulk's Mighty Air Slash possessing the greatest MVR.

Note: When a move has the word "Floor" beside it, this indicates that the move can hit characters even crouching lower than 1 star aka the 1st platform. Characters like Mr. G&W, Jigglypuff, Kirby, & Wii Fit Trainer are all characters worthy of crouching lower than the 1st platform.

*Note: I'm restricting the MVR for Shulk's aerials by using Hyper Monado Arts, specifically Hyper Speed & Hyper Shield so that the jump height was reduced enough for an idea of their restricted MVR. I Short Hopped & inputted the aerial immediately after the jump. Otherwise, aerials should be free to have whatever MVR they desire because aerials can be inputted at whichever height you jump.

Jab1 = 1★ – 2★
Jab2 = 1★ – 3★
Jab3 = Floor – 4★
Dash Attack = Floor – 2★
FTilt = Floor – 2★ (Only a small portion of the attack hits the following characters crouching in the 2nd Note)
UTilt = Floor – 9★ (Not every character will be hit on the 9th platform)
DTilt = Floor – 1★
FSmash 1st hit no angling = Floor – 2★ (Although it can whiff vs the Noted crouching characters)
FSmash 1st hit angled down = Floor – 1★
FSmash 1st hit angled up = 1★ – 2★
FSmash 2nd hit no angling = 1★ – 2★
FSmash 2nd hit angled down = Floor – 1★
FSmash 2nd hit angled up = 1★ – 3★ (The 2nd hit's sourspot is why it's ★★★)
USmash 1st hit = Floor – 4★
USmash 2nd hit = Floor – 7★
DSmash (All 5 hits) = Floor – 1★
*SH NAir (Hyper Shield) = Floor – 7★
*SH FAir (Hyper Speed) = Floor – 8★ (The active hit-box of FAir will reach the 8th platform)
*SH BAir (Hyper Speed) = Floor – 4★
*SH UAir 1st hit (Hyper Speed) = 1★ – 6★
*SH UAir 2nd hit (Hyper Shield) = 1★ – 10★
*SH DAir 1st hit from the Floor (Hyper Speed) = Floor – 3★
*SH DAir 2nd hit from the 4th platform (Hyper Speed) = Floor – 4★
Back Slash = Floor – 5★
Back Slash Leap = Floor – 8★ (The overhead swing of BSL reaches the 8th platform)
Back Slash Charge = Floor – 5★ (The active hit-box of BSC from above Shulk reaches the 5th platform)
Air Slash 1st hit = Floor – 10★
Air Slash 1st hit (Jump) = Floor – 12★
Air Slash 1st hit (Decisive Jump) = Floor – 13★
Air Slash 1st hit (Hyper Jump) = Floor – 13★ (It's odd because Hyper Jump Shulk can land on the 14th platform)
Air Slash 2nd hit = 6★ – 13★
Air Slash 2nd hit (Jump) = 9★ – 16★
Air Slash 2nd hit (Decisive Jump) = 10★ – 17★
Air Slash 2nd hit (Hyper Jump) = 12★ – 18★
Advancing Air Slash 1st hit = Floor – 10★
Advancing Air Slash 1st hit (Jump) = Floor – 12★
Advancing Air Slash 1st hit (Decisive Jump) = Floor – 13★
Advancing Air Slash 1st hit (Hyper Jump) = Floor – 13★ (It's odd because Hyper Jump Shulk can land on the 14th platform)
Advancing Air Slash 2nd hit = 2★ – 8★ (You can hit the Barrel on the 1st platform if you delay the 2nd slash)
Advancing Air Slash 2nd hit (Jump) = 4★ – 11★ (You can hit the Barrel on the 3rd platform if you delay the 2nd slash)
Advancing Air Slash 2nd hit (Decisive Jump) = 6★ – 12★ (You can hit the Barrel on the 5th platform if you delay the 2nd slash)
Advancing Air Slash 2nd hit (Hyper Jump) = 8★ – 13★ (You can hit the Barrel on the 7th platform if you delay the 2nd slash)
Mighty Air Slash 1st hit = Floor – 10★ (MAS can hit crouched characters when both are on the Floor, but Shulk cannot hit when he's standing on the 1st platform)
Mighty Air Slash 1st hit (Jump) = Floor – 11★
Mighty Air Slash 1st hit (Decisive Jump) = Floor – 11★ (Yet DJump Art + MAS can land on the 16th platform)
Mighty Air Slash 1st hit (Hyper Jump) = Floor – 12★ (Yet the HJump Art + MAS can land on the 17th platform)
Mighty Air Slash 2nd hit = 9★ – 14★
Mighty Air Slash 2nd hit (Jump) = 12★ – 18★
Mighty Air Slash 2nd hit (Decisive Jump) = 13★ – 19★
Mighty Air Slash 2nd hit (Hyper Jump) = 15★ – 21★ (This is crazy height)
Grounded Vision = Floor – 3★
Grounded Forward Vision = Floor – 3★
Grounded Dash Vision = Floor – 3★
Grounded Forward Dash Vision = Floor – 3★
Grounded Power Vision = Floor – 3★
Grounded Forward Power Vision = Floor – 3★
FThrow = Floor – 3★
BThrow = Floor – 3★
UThrow = Floor – 6★ (Someone else would have to be very close to Shulk to be hit at Floor level & above)
DThrow = Floor – 1★ (Shulk grabbing & DThrowing someone on the 4th platform can hit a Barrel on the Floor)
════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════

EDIT: Bonus Maximum Vertical Range​

The moves listed below are the only moves that Shulk can hit a crouching character with while they're on the Floor & Shulk is on a ★platform. These moves ALSO can hit an opponent hanging on the ledge per-say you want to ledgetrump & hit with any of these moves for when they regrab the ledge:

FSmash 2nd hit angled down -- from 1★
DSmash 5th hit -- from 1★ (Has to be fairly spaced away since it won't hit from up close underneath)
*SH NAir (Hyper Speed) -- from 1★ (You can reach from 2★ if you input the FAir upon landing with or without a Monado Art)
*SH FAir (Hyper Speed) -- from 2★ (You can reach from 3★ if you input the FAir upon landing with or without a Monado Art
*SH BAir (Hyper Speed) -- from 1★ (You can reach from 2★ if you input the BAir upon landing with or without a Monado Art)
*SH DAir 2nd hit (Hyper Speed) -- from 4★
Back Slash Leap -- from 1★ (Oddly enough, neither Back Slash nor Back Slash Charge can hit like Back Slash Leap can)
Air Slash 1st hit -- from 1★
Advancing Air Slash 1st hit -- from 1★
DThrow -- from 1★

 

[FOcast]

The moves listed below are the only moves that Shulk can hit a crouching character with while they're on the Floor & Shulk is on a ★platform. These moves ALSO can hit an opponent hanging on the ledge per-say you want to ledgetrump & hit with any of these moves for when they regrab the ledge:

FSmash 2nd hit angled down -- from 1★
DSmash 5th hit -- from 1★ (Has to be fairly spaced away since it won't hit from up close underneath)
*SH NAir (Hyper Speed) -- from 1★ (You can reach from 2★ if you input the FAir upon landing with or without a Monado Art)
*SH FAir (Hyper Speed) -- from 2★ (You can reach from 3★ if you input the FAir upon landing with or without a Monado Art
*SH BAir (Hyper Speed) -- from 1★ (You can reach from 2★ if you input the BAir upon landing with or without a Monado Art)
*SH DAir 2nd hit (Hyper Speed) -- from 4★
Back Slash Leap -- from 1★ (Oddly enough, neither Back Slash nor Back Slash Charge can hit like Back Slash Leap can)
Air Slash 1st hit -- from 1★
Advancing Air Slash 1st hit -- from 1★
DThrow -- from 1★

It would also be good to know which hitboxes will hit characters that hang low on the ledge (like Ganondorf, Shulk) from the Floor. I know that all of these will, but also I know Dtilt will, and I think Jab3 does, too. Do (or which of) Shulk's Vision hitboxes hit that low?

 

[Berserker.]

Smart quote of the day from some random awesome guy loser from the Zelda social *nudge* *nudge*

totally secret top tier legitimate doubles team hear me out



If they face one way, they'll get disabled. If they face the other way to avoid da disable, they get backslashed. EZ $$$$ just don't hit Mewtwo by accident and kill him at 60% lmao

Making bad moves totaaaaally better one step at a time~

 

[AlvisCPU]

Smart quote of the day from some random awesome guy loser from the Zelda social *nudge* *nudge*:

Last Teams thing I attended, I told my Mario partner that if they throw an opponent towards me, I can get a free Back Slash. I can't say I've 'checked' every character but I expect a thrown opponent will (in most cases) face away from the thrower, so someone can be thrown towards me with their back neatly presented to a Back Slash. If you accidentally hit your teammate with the Back Slash off their up-/down-/forward-throw, they'll take it from the front so it'll often be worth the risk if your spacing is off. Just watch your teammate's % (because front-hit Back Slash can still kill once high enough), and space it very carefully if done off a their back-throw.

Only throw I can think of that doesn't result in the opponent facing the thrower is Shulk's back-throw, actually. There might be a few like that, just work it out with your teammates I guess.

It's hardly some pro tech but it's something useful to keep in mind.

 

[erico9001]

Last Teams thing I attended, I told my Mario partner that if they throw an opponent towards me, I can get a free Back Slash. I can't say I've 'checked' every character but I expect a thrown opponent will (in most cases) face away from the thrower, so someone can be thrown towards me with their back neatly presented to a Back Slash. If you accidentally hit your teammate with the Back Slash off their up-/down-/forward-throw, they'll take it from the front so it'll often be worth the risk if your spacing is off. Just watch your teammate's % (because front-hit Back Slash can still kill once high enough), and space it very carefully if done off a their back-throw.

Only throw I can think of that doesn't result in the opponent facing the thrower is Shulk's back-throw, actually. There might be a few like that, just work it out with your teammates I guess.

It's hardly some pro tech but it's something useful to keep in mind.

@Artryuu does that in a gif in her avatar

 

[DavemanCozy]

@Artryuu does that in a gif in her avatar

That's really heavy damage. 75% -> 87%. I wonder how it would have played out had Shulk not been in Speed and in Buster instead.

 

[Berserker.]

I think for this week, I will try to find something useful about back slash. Yep, I said a week. Because it's garbage. It could be a good tech-chasing option though for all I know!

On another note, Shulk's b-air is great for tech chasing (if this isn't new then ignore this and move on to what you were doing). The range on it is insane enough anyway, from my experience.

D-air also has this weird property of placing opponents beneath Shulk's sword. I've exploited this whenever opponents still try to bop me off while I'm grabbing the ledge. Just ledge drop > rising d-air. If their hurt box is stretching a bit from the edge, they're sure to get meteor smashed by d-air. You don't even have to move forward while using d-air. Just jump upward while using it

Like for example, Ganondorf does an f-tilt and whiffs it. If he whiffs, you drop from the ledge then do a jumping d-air. His foot is still counted as a hurt box so d-air will position Dorf and meteor him downward to his death.

It's really hard to explain or teach in words. I probably need a video or GIF to show it. My bad if this was too hard to understand.

 

[Masonomace]

It would also be good to know which hitboxes will hit characters that hang low on the ledge (like Ganondorf, Shulk) from the Floor. I know that all of these will, but also I know Dtilt will, and I think Jab3 does, too. Do (or which of) Shulk's Vision hitboxes hit that low?

I'd have to go hard with testing the moves that would hit certain characters hanging on the ledge. And as for DTilt & Jab3, they can hit an opponent ledge-hanging but they're not as consistent like say the 1st hit of Air Slash, or the 2nd hit of FSmash angled down.

I also tested the 3 Visions hoping that any of them would be able to hit from standing on the 1st platform, but none of them could hit a crouching character on the Floor & that's barely any height off the ground. So yeah, if all 3 Visions couldn't hit someone crouching lower than that 1st platform's height, I doubt any of the Visions could hit someone hanging on the ledge. Though I can still test that in case there's rare moments it works on certain characters.

I think for this week, I will try to find something useful about back slash. Yep, I said a week. Because it's garbage. It could be a good tech-chasing option though for all I know!

On another note, Shulk's b-air is great for tech chasing (if this isn't new then ignore this and move on to what you were doing). The range on it is insane enough anyway, from my experience.

D-air also has this weird property of placing opponents beneath Shulk's sword. I've exploited this whenever opponents still try to bop me off while I'm grabbing the ledge. Just ledge drop > rising d-air. If their hurt box is stretching a bit from the edge, they're sure to get meteor smashed by d-air. You don't even have to move forward while using d-air. Just jump upward while using it

Like for example, Ganondorf does an f-tilt and whiffs it. If he whiffs, you drop from the ledge then do a jumping d-air. His foot is still counted as a hurt box so d-air will position Dorf and meteor him downward to his death.

It's really hard to explain or teach in words. I probably need a video or GIF to show it. My bad if this was too hard to understand.

I understand. I go for ledge-dropping away & go for a slightly drifted DAir towards them ending with success because the 1st hit draws them into the 2nd hit which isn't over stage floor level yet. That moment you get the Meteor feels great.

 

[FOcast]

I'd have to go hard with testing the moves that would hit certain characters hanging on the ledge. And as for DTilt & Jab3, they can hit an opponent ledge-hanging but they're not as consistent like say the 1st hit of Air Slash, or the 2nd hit of FSmash angled down.

If only the first hit of Air Slash actually comboed into anything, instead of always leaving them too low for followups when using it on hanging players. =/

I feel like Shulk has SUCH a hard time pressuring anybody hanging on the ledge without the hard commitment of down angled FSmash. Maybe I just need to get better at spacing the low hitbox of Dtilt.

I feel like I've hit a Villager hanging on the ledge with a power vision against his Lloyd Rocket, but he might have just tried to stand up into it. I'll do some testing myself when I get a chance.

 

[Berserker.]

If I were you, I'd let them do anything from the ledge and retaliate against any of their ledge options. Shulk's ledge trapping is amazing (u-tilt, f-air, n-air, d-tilt, f-tilt, d-smash, f-smash are all amazing for retaliating) so take advantage of it

You can also go for ledge trumping then doing reverse air slash which KO's at surprisingly low percentages with smash art activated

If you're really needing to hit the opponent off the ledge, you're better off using d-tilt. If you miss, it's fine because it doesn't have that much end lag anyway.

 

[Masonomace]

I just go for DAirs when it comes to Ledge-trumping (If I do get a ledge-trump. . .). Ledge-trumping with FSmash angled down is great & all, but getting a DAir off with the Meteor effect is more rewarding because it launches them straight down KO'ing much earlier than a FSmash angled down can. DI won't save them unless we're playing on an omega stage having walls for them to walljump off of, wall-teching in place, or tech-jumping off the wall & surviving. Then again, that sets up another DAir for us, or we go for RAR FAir hits for the stage spikes / multiple techs.

EDIT: If you don't get the Meteor effect but get the sourspot instead, you get the stage spike effect 'cus that's how awesome the sourspot of DAir's 2nd hit is. The 2nd hit of DAir hits quite the distance from below, & that's the good stuff.

EDIT #2: I forgot to mention that the sourspot of DAir's 2nd hit won't always get the stage spike. It can also get the knockback angle going towards the blast line, which is an underrated KO option imo. Those moments you try going for the Ken combo but whiff the sweetspot & get the sourspot? They're basically dead past ~70% with a decent amount of Rage 'cus this move hits surprisingly hard.

Oh, & I updated the OP a tad.

 

[AlvisCPU]

@Artryuu does that in a gif in her avatar

I knew someone had it as a signature, but couldn't remember who! Yeah, after doing a 4v4 thing my teammates were all team comboing with 1-2 people using cheap Ness/G&W/Villager tactics, I started thinking about ways Shulk could be used in a team environment and this gif gave me the idea. It actually works really well, if the teammate can set you up. Otherwise you can space really carefully and tip the Back Slash on just your opponent whilst they're being held in place.

As for Back Slash in general, I only ever use it in two cases. The first is when my opponent is retreating through the air with their back to Shulk. I find even if they air dodge correctly, their momentum and Back Slash's quick fall means they can't retaliate in time. Speaking of dodging, I find Back Slash pretty good at catching air dodges/spot dodges because the amount of startup contrasts with every other aerial he has. Can throw people off.

The second time I use it is when falling to the stage (not to the ledge) and you're out of a secondary jump. As you fall into your opponents range, the initial jump animation can push you out of range of their hit, and the Back Slash will punish the miss. Very dependent on positioning and we all know how punishable Back Slash is, but since I use it so rarely and they expect an air dodge if anything, I find it usually works and I can safely return to the ground. Not sure if I'd recommend that because it's still pretty risky, but it's something I do and maybe someone can work on/improve the idea.

I'm all for finding ways to improve Back Slash's usefulness. I can't help but feel we wouldn't have this problem if it could ledge grab. It'd be a great high recovery option.

 

[Berserker.]

If used right, back slash wrecks RAR's. This is actually nothing new because I'm sure this was mentioned somewhere in this thread. If the opponent has the habit of rushing down or spacing with b-air, it screams "back slash me"

 

[TheHopefulHero]

I mainly look at Back Slash as a surprise attack or a small extended F-Air. As a whole, the start up requires a lot of space before it comes out, and the lag will hurt Shulk if he misses. The damage is nice, and the knockback isn't something to sleep on at high %'s (especially if Smash is active). The biggest problem is just trying to land it. You need to anticipate the opponents actions ahead of time before throwing it out, or we eating damage. It has a number of merits ( wrecks RAR B-Air's, longest horizontal attack, lasting hotbox, eats Shields when done properly in Buster), but it's tough to use it as of now.

I really want to find a use for Back Slash since it's got some interesting potential, but it's a little tough right now.

 

[Masonomace]

If only the first hit of Air Slash actually comboed into anything, instead of always leaving them too low for followups when using it on hanging players. =/

I feel like Shulk has SUCH a hard time pressuring anybody hanging on the ledge without the hard commitment of down angled FSmash. Maybe I just need to get better at spacing the low hitbox of Dtilt.

I feel like I've hit a Villager hanging on the ledge with a power vision against his Lloyd Rocket, but he might have just tried to stand up into it. I'll do some testing myself when I get a chance.

Okay so, I did some testing with Jab3, DTilt, & the Visions, & they pretty much only hit characters who expose a good sized hurtbox. Examples:
, ,
I'll edit this to make a list of who gets hit by these moves hanging on the ledge.

EDIT #1: Oh & @ erico9001 did do a test of characters hanging on the ledge by both hits of Air Slash / Advancing Air Slash. I'm not sure where it is but it's here somewhere.

 

[erico9001]

If only the first hit of Air Slash actually comboed into anything, instead of always leaving them too low for followups when using it on hanging players. =/

I feel like Shulk has SUCH a hard time pressuring anybody hanging on the ledge without the hard commitment of down angled FSmash. Maybe I just need to get better at spacing the low hitbox of Dtilt.

I feel like I've hit a Villager hanging on the ledge with a power vision against his Lloyd Rocket, but he might have just tried to stand up into it. I'll do some testing myself when I get a chance.

Villager's head pokes up over the edge, so that would not surprise me. Even back slash flat on the ground hits Villager.

Okay so, I did some testing with Jab3, DTilt, & the Visions, & they pretty much only hit characters who expose a good sized hurtbox. Examples:
, ,
I'll edit this to make a list of who gets hit by these moves hanging on the ledge.

EDIT #1: Oh & @ erico9001 did do a test of characters hanging on the ledge by both hits of Air Slash / Advancing Air Slash. I'm not sure where it is but it's here somewhere.

I recall doing a list of when rage makes regular air slash stop missing on grounded opponents, and I was the original person to think of using Air Slash on people who are on the edge, but I don't know if I ever tested who that works on. But, then again, maybe I did test it? I remember thinking about doing it, and bringing up that it would be nice to have a list in the comments of Jerm's RAS video, but... err I guess my brain may have sent that memory over to the recycle bin and emptied it .

Oh, and I've been thinking of revisiting that list of when grounded characters stop getting hurt by Air Slash. I have had a few unexpected results with it, so I may have missed some characters.

 

[Berserker.]

@ Masonomace

Update the OP with this info?

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-survival-rankings.400617/



Check out the new thread please -> http://smashboards.com/threads/pend...is-currently-discussing-jab-jab-combo.401517/

Double post but this is an announcement (sort of)

The following post will be copy-pasted to other threads:

If I were you guys, I'd REALLY start on implementing perfect pivoting even though fundamentals/reads are superior and better. It won't hurt to at least implement this in Shulk's meta especially since he's all about spacing. This will solve a lot of problems regarding f-tilt whiffing

 

[Linkmario00]

Double post but this is an announcement (sort of)

The following post will be copy-pasted to other threads:

If I were you guys, I'd REALLY start on implementing perfect pivoting even though fundamentals/reads are superior and better. It won't hurt to at least implement this in Shulk's meta especially since he's all about spacing. This will solve a lot of problems regarding f-tilt whiffing

So we should set up the C-stick to attack, right? I think i'll trasform it into an A-stick for every character I use, it seems much more useful for PP and for not doing a not-wanted smash attack 'due to human error. Especially with Shulk 'due to his enourmous lag after any smash that can mean Death for us.

 

[Berserker.]

So we should set up the C-stick to attack, right? I think i'll trasform it into an A-stick for every character I use, it seems much more useful for PP and for not doing a not-wanted smash attack 'due to human error. Especially with Shulk 'due to his enourmous lag after any smash that can mean Death for us.

Yep.

C-stick for attack
A+B for smashes

 

[erico9001]

Double post but this is an announcement (sort of)

The following post will be copy-pasted to other threads:

If I were you guys, I'd REALLY start on implementing perfect pivoting even though fundamentals/reads are superior and better. It won't hurt to at least implement this in Shulk's meta especially since he's all about spacing. This will solve a lot of problems regarding f-tilt whiffing

Never!

Yep.

C-stick for attack
A+B for smashes

I agree with this. I somewhat recently made the switch, but I still need practice for not accidentally using Nair when I mean to Fair. The main benefit for me is the ease of doing Upper tilt. Other side effects include easier time doing Speed D-throw -> Fair (no need to flick) and better spacing.

I used to do the smash attacks stick for the Buster D-throw -> F-smash true combo, but A+B allows that to be performed with the tilt stick.

 

[Berserker.]

Never!

Enjoy your infraction

I agree with this. I somewhat recently made the switch, but I still need practice for not accidentally using Nair when I mean to Fair. The main benefit for me is the ease of doing Upper tilt. Other side effects include easier time doing Speed D-throw -> Fair (no need to flick) and better spacing.

I used to do the smash attacks stick for the Buster D-throw -> F-smash true combo, but A+B allows that to be performed with the tilt stick.

I'm beginning to like A+B a lot. Allows me to finally mess with c-sticking with attack. It's not even that hard to get used to. Pivoting is still as easy. Oh, and I'm a huge fan of buster d-throw -> F-smash/F-tilt too

Perfect pivot f-tilts are the truth btw. Seriously. They're amazing. Especially in speed or buster or smash

 

[Plain Yogurt]

The only thing that was holding me back from changing C-Stick to Attack before was that I couldn't get pivot FSmash without it. Now that A+B exists though...Yay for walking up tilts/down tilts/reverse ftilts!

So after seeing a few "footstools are awesome!" posts flying around I jumped into the lab with Shulk to see if he could do anything cool. The answer was pretty much nothing unless there's something I missed (JAB doesn't even seem to JAB-lock. Like what the heck?) but if you're in Jump or Speed it sets up a nice tech chase thanks to the extra fall speed/lower jump height letting you get to ground level before they can move. Kinda nifty.

 

[erico9001]

The only thing that was holding me back from changing C-Stick to Attack before was that I couldn't get pivot FSmash without it. Now that A+B exists though...Yay for walking up tilts/down tilts/reverse ftilts!

So after seeing a few "footstools are awesome!" posts flying around I jumped into the lab with Shulk to see if he could do anything cool. The answer was pretty much nothing unless there's something I missed (JAB doesn't even seem to JAB-lock. Like what the heck?) but if you're in Jump or Speed it sets up a nice tech chase thanks to the extra fall speed/lower jump height letting you get to ground level before they can move. Kinda nifty.

A little topic I indulged into:

Footstooling + Jump Art + D-air = Guaranteed Punish?
Earlier today I was thinking about Footstools granting a punish for Shulk, & the inspiration was from Captain Falcon footstooling & immediately doing a Falcon Kick which is guaranteed 15% damage (24% if they get hit by his landing 9% hit at early percentages). So here we are. When footstooling an opponent they cannot do anything for a brief moment, & so I wanted to take the same idea I had with Falcon & use footstooling to reward Shulk some damage but didn't have much success with finding a move other than Air Slash or the AS Customs that was was guaranteed on most of the cast. Hopefully that changes.

Edit: F-air & N-air Fast Fallen in some cases after footstooling can hit a character instead of using D-air. If your D-air's 2nd hit gets perfect shielded, F-air or N-air Fast Fallen will get the job done.

For starters, you need to have a Jump Art on in order to get the reward I'm talking about because the Jump Arts reduce your footstool jump's height to be shorter than Vanilla Shulk's or any of his other Arts too (Surprisingly, Speed & Shield don't reduce the footstool jump's height). Secondly, the one move I found to be reliable for rewarding on-stage footstooling is D-air's 2nd hitting sourspot Beam, dealing 10%. Now I present to you the characters that Jump / DJump / HJump Shulk can hit out of a footstool > D-air:

Note: I mainly tested this by footstooling them front the front only, except for Wario since he's an exception.

Footstool > D-air 2nd hit Table​

Character | Jump | Decisive Jump | Hyper Jump
Bowser | No | No | No
Bowser Jr. | Yes | Yes | Yes
Captain Falcon | No | No | No
Charizard | No | No | No
Dark Pit | No | No | No
King Dedede | No | No | No
Diddy Kong | No | No | No
Donkey Kong | No | No | No
Dr. Mario | No | No | No
Duck Hunt | No | No | No
Falco | Yes | Yes | Yes
Fox | Yes | Yes | Yes
Ganondorf | No | No | No
Mr. Game & Watch | No | Yes | Yes
Greninja | No | No | No
Ike | Yes | Yes | Yes
Jigglypuff | No | No | No
Kirby | No | No | No
Little Mac | No | No | No
Link | No | No | No
Lucario | No | No | No
Lucina | Yes | Yes | Yes
Luigi | No | No | No
Mario | No | No | No
Marth | Yes | Yes | Yes
Mega Man | No | No | No
Meta Knight | No | No | No
Ness | No | No | No
Olimar | No | No | No
Palutena | No | No | No
Pac-Man| No | Yes | Yes
Peach | Yes | Yes | Yes
Pikachu | Yes | Yes | Yes
Pit | No | No | No
R.O.B. | No | No | No
Robin | No | No | No
Rosalina & Luma | No | No | No
Samus | No | No | No
Sheik | Yes | Yes | Yes
Shulk | Yes | Yes | Yes
Sonic | No | No | No
Toon Link | No | No | No
Villager | No | No | No
Wario | No | No | Yes
Wii Fit Trainer | No | No | No
Yoshi | No | No | No
Zelda | No | No | No
Zero Suit Samus | Yes | Yes | Yes

• Diddy is too short to be hit by D-air. You don't even hit his shield with the end of the 2nd hitting D-air
• G&W is too short to be hit by D-air, although you have enough frame advantage to footstool & F-air or N-air & FF either aerial
• Pac-Man is too short to be hit by D-air, although you have enough frame advantage to footstool into F-air or N-air & FF either aerial
• Wario when footstooled will bop his head up & down. Hyper Jump can only hit Wario if you're facing toward his back & footstool him from behind. When you do get the backwards footstool, your 1st of D-air will hit & you can FF your D-air to hit Wario with the 2nd hit too. Results will vary
• Shulk's Monado Arts were taken into account as well. None of them make any difference for Shulk

Edit #2: Apparently I was wrong but right at the same time. Speed & Shield don't decrease the height of our footstool jump enough to see a difference, but Hyper Speed can footstool > D-air 2nd hit most of the same characters that Jump Shulk can. Here's the list of characters that Hyper Speed can hit with footstool > D-air 2nd hit:
(You have to D-air as soon as you can. Usually Hyper Speed D-air sourspot deals 6% in Training Mode but you deal 7% to him)
(You enough frame advantage, so it doesn't need to be a tight input)
(You cannot input D-air immediately or else your sourspot D-air will whiff him. You have enough frame advantage that you can wait a bit before using D-air, or, you can quickly doublejump & D-air after footstooling & that works)
(You have a very tight moment that you can hit him with D-air. You can't do it immediately because it'll whiff, but waiting too long & he'll perfect shield it. It's possible but eh, stick with Jump Shulk)
(You have enough frame advantage, so it doesn't need to be a tight input)
(You have enough frame advantage, so it doesn't need to be a tight input)
(You cannot input D-air immediately or else your sourspot D-air will whiff her. You have enough frame advantage that you can wait a bit before using D-air)
(You have to immediately doublejump & D-air after footstooling. This is the only way for Hyper Speed Shulk)
(You have enough frame advantage, so it doesn't need to be a tight input)
(You have to D-air as soon as you can)
(You have to D-air as soon as you can)

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I shoulda known Mason had something cooked up already. Still nothing too significant, and is sourspot dair any good? Then again having SOMEthing guaranteed is nice.

 

[Berserker.]

Not much of help but more reasons to adapt to A+B smashing

Kenniky posted this already. We kinda had no idea where this will become useful but this actually makes MADC into down or forward smash 100% easier

Cycle through the arts. If you know your desired art is the next art, just hold the B button. Once the activation animation begins, press A while holding B. You'll execute a sliding f-smash or a sliding d-smash if you manage to do this (sliding distance varies. Jump art and speed art don't have a notable slide distance. Shield, buster, and smash do but this may be placebo)

Edit: This also applies with MALLC except you don't slide (of course).

 

[Berserker.]

Double post because I've been waiting patiently for someone to post so I can avoid this but eh. I've been doing this trick for a while now. Actually applies for all match ups since speed will be used at all times unless something specific happens.

Basic gameplan is to use speed at neutral. I'll want to gain momentum by landing a bunch of strings. Once I've put them in a disadvantageous position (above me or off-stage).

If I fail to force them into a disadvantage with speed or if I'm not able to gather momentum with speed, I'm forced to either go for jump or buster. Jump art has some nice early percentage strings, although the reason why I'd use speed first over this is because it's risky to mess up with jump (+22% damage received). Buster art is great at neutral because your attacks are generally safe on shield. Only issue is that you need to be on-point with your spacing. If speed is already off cooldown, quickly switch. If you're already gathering momentum with jump. If all else fails, just wait for speed art to come off cooldown.

Anyway, if I manage to force them into a disadvantage with speed, I have the instant upper hand. BUT, I'm not going into jump art because it's probably a better idea to rack up damage. I'll switch to buster art once that happens. I'll exploit my ledge traps and rack up damage using that. If my opponent somehow goes on-stage, I'll keep the pressure up since I'm already (or probably) at mid-range anyway and buster is legit for mid-range.

Once my momentum breaks with buster, I make a decision between speed or shield. If I want to maintain the pace, I switch to speed but if I want to slow down first, I'll use shield. If my opponent decides to play aggressive against shield then I'll just play defensively and react. That's one scenario btw.

What if I'm disrupted during my buster momentum via damage taken? I'll immediately switch to jump or shield. Jump to escape or shield to reduce damage taken then after that, I immediately switch to speed since that's the best art for Shulk's neutral. My main arts at the disadvantaged state are jump and shield.

Once my opponent is at mid-percentage, I can make a choice between continuing to rack up damage or attempting to land the early kill with jump art. If I get disrupted too much with attempting to "style" my opponent, I'll switch off from jump art. So..... I'll only use smash once I have them in a disadvantageous situation and their percentage is at KO range.

Seems like a complicated plan but it feels simple in practice imo. It only looks complex because it assumes that you aren't ALWAYS going to succeed with every attempt with every art. That's the thing with Shulk. If you don't manage to maximize your art usage, you'll have a problem. You'll need some sort of back up plan. You also need to learn how to cycle really fast and accurately. Like really fast. Then again, this is also important if you want to use MALLC and MADC. Which reminds me, these 2 techs are also important because they also spice up the plan. Actually, they're both game changers. Spacing b-air while preparing MALLC will give you enough space and breathing room for spacing with speed art or buster art or jump art. You can also perform a sweet combo if you manage to land a clean hit with b-air (MALLC b-air -> Dash grab/f-smash/f-tilt). Now imagine that total damage output with BUSTER ART? I doubt you can land a kill combo with MALLC b-air -> smash art (any option) because at that point, b-air deals too much knockback. I think MALLC n-air/f-air -> smash art works well. MADC (meanwhile) is severely underrated. Sliding f-smashes and d-smashes are the truth especially when you're land chasing or trying to punish opponents. They whiff an attack? SLIDING D-SMASH OR SLIDING UP-ANGLED F-SMASH. Should note that both smash attacks kill at fraudulent percentages in Smash art. Especially up-angled f-smash *giggles*

So yeah

noodLes

I'll be honest, I've been doing this for a while now but when I typed this, smells like pure theorycraft which I'm not a fan of. I say you guys give this a shot. Give me feedback so that if this plan is a massive flop, we can join together for a nice camping trip and burn this **** with fire along with dash attack

 

[erico9001]

Not much of help but more reasons to adapt to A+B smashing

Kenniky posted this already. We kinda had no idea where this will become useful but this actually makes MADC into down or forward smash 100% easier

Cycle through the arts. If you know your desired art is the next art, just hold the B button. Once the activation animation begins, press A while holding B. You'll execute a sliding f-smash or a sliding d-smash if you manage to do this (sliding distance varies. Jump art and speed art don't have a notable slide distance. Shield, buster, and smash do but this may be placebo)

Edit: This also applies with MALLC except you don't slide (of course).

I don't know if you remember, but you posted about MADC a while ago saying again that Speed and Jump weren't good for it, and I responded with this.

F-smash is a weird one to slide because you must flick it or it stops.

I get Jump and Speed to slide. However, Speed has higher friction. Without the extra velocity that Monado Speed usually would give you, the art actually has a lesser slide distance.

That's still true. Speed's higher friction is usually made up for by its high running speed, but in this case, the speed is Vanilla's running speed.

This has brought a thought to me. So, back to this...

Monado Speed: Walking+U-tilt for juggles

In the past, I've found that Monado Speed's walk speed is faster than Vanilla's run speed. Also, I've found that Monado Jump's horizontal air speed is about the same as Vanilla's run speed. Well, I've recently learned that Monado Jump is the fastest non-customs air speed (only behind lightweight Paulutena and Shulk's custom monado arts).

The logic follows that Monado Speed's walk speed is faster than every character's horizontal air speed. While walking, Monado Speed can keep up with all falling opponents. This is great, because then there is Shulk's Up Tilt. Due to its reach and long-lasting hitbox, it's great for juggling. It also has the property of not immediately stopping Shulk when it is used, so he slides while using it from a walk. This makes for a useful strategy.

> Simply walk below the opponent while tracking his movement, and repeatedly hit him with Up Tilt when he comes within range. The strategy is effective, because Up-tilt's range usually is unchallengeable. If they air dodge, either another Up Tilt will be ready by the time their air dodge is over, or they will hit the ground mid air dodge and suffer landing lag.

It has limitations, as opponents with slower fall speeds could possibly air dodge while within range of the move and still be able to act before they suffer air dodge landing lag. For such characters, it should be worthwhile to read the air dodge, and then delay the Up Tilt to hit when the air dodge is over. Characters with multiple jumps could also be troublesome. With multiple jumps, they can immediately change direction, and if they do so while we use the U-tilt, we may not be able to get to them before they land. However, this will still work on the majority of the cast.

I've been doing this a lot lately, ever since switching my right analog stick to tilts. Now that I think of it, this may be why I have been using Speed more than Buster lately. Though, something I had not considered is that maybe this could be started off even while not already in Monado Speed, thanks to the MADC! Firstly, as I showed here:

I was curious, so I tested the speeds of Shulk's movements. I measured how long it takes for each form of movement to get across Final destination, one end to the other. I checked each multiple times to make sure the results are consistent.

Rolling (same for all modes (tested just to be sure)) - 2.35s

Monado Shield running - 3.16s
Shield walking - 4.6s

Jump/Buster/Smash/Vanilla (neutral) running - 1.90s
Jump/Buster/Smash/Vanilla (neutral) walking - 2.77s

Speed running - 1.2s
Speed walking - 1.7s

Monado Jump jumping (short hop then aerial jump) - 1.91s

Interesting findings:
-The speed difference between Monado Jump jumping and Neutral running is insignificant.
-Rolling is much slower than speed running/walking, much faster than monado shield running, and a little slower than neutral running.
-Speed walking is faster than neutral running (though also keep in mind it has lower acceleration)

Vanilla's run speed is just slightly slower than Speed's walk speed. So, if Vanilla's run could be cancelled at any time, then it would be like you were already performing the Speed walking U-tilts. Well, that's the role of MADC! MADC can initiate the U-tilt juggling from any art. Simply press B 5 times to get to Monado Speed from any monado art, or twice from Vanilla. Then, head towards your opponent. You might be thinking, 'oh, but wouldn't I have to time the activation of Monado Speed for when directly below the opponent?' That's not true. If you have it activate at any time time before you reach the opponent, that is good. Since you are dong MADC with Monado Speed, well, you're going into a Speed Walk, which is actually just slightly faster than what you would have been running at in Vanilla, and has all the options still. So yeah, MADC into Monado Speed for U-tilt juggling.

Overall, I think MADC is a technique that could use some exploring, like MALLC before I made my guide on it. There's probably a lot that can be done with it; we just haven't tried it much.

>Like how about this: Monado Buster MADC -> F-tilt approach. If the opponent shields, he will often not be able to punish because of buster f-tilt's large pushback.
>Another option: if the opponent likes to jump (out of shield perhaps) when being approached, then MADC Monado Smash U-tilt could kill him.
>MADC D-tilt? Not much end-lag, so very little commitment if used as an approach. After your D-tilt. think they will try to punish you OOS (as they would habitually do to most approaching attacks)? Then, how about you follow that D-tilt up with another D-tilt, or maybe an F-tilt. Think they will stay shielded? Follow up with a dash grab! Will they jump? U-tilt.
>Also, maybe if you are approaching with MADC, and the art activates before you reach the opponent, you could do a little dash dance or perfect pivot to throw them off before you continue with your approach (monado speed pivot grab, anyone?)

ANOTHER APPLICATION OF MADC: Let go of the joystick right when the art activates, and you will slide forward with your monado art activation animation. As we found out with MALLC, that animation has invincibility frames. Perhaps, this is a new approach option. Simply run towards opponent with your MADC planned, and slide through his attack with the monado art activation invincibility frames. Then, punish.

I think we just need to start practicing the tech.

 

[Berserker.]

ANOTHER APPLICATION OF MADC: Let go of the joystick right when the art activates, and you will slide forward with your monado art activation animation. As we found out with MALLC, that animation has invincibility frames. Perhaps, this is a new approach option. Simply run towards opponent with your MADC planned, and slide through his attack with the monado art activation invincibility frames. Then, punish.

Now this is interesting...

I'm definitely gonna hit the lab with this

 

[kenniky]

ANOTHER APPLICATION OF MADC: Let go of the joystick right when the art activates, and you will slide forward with your monado art activation animation. As we found out with MALLC, that animation has invincibility frames. Perhaps, this is a new approach option. Simply run towards opponent with your MADC planned, and slide through his attack with the monado art activation invincibility frames. Then, punish.

Even if it doesn't work this has to be the most stylish approach in the game.

There are so many things you can do with Monado Arts that it's frankly insane.

 

[Berserker.]

While you guys are at it with MALLC and MADC

Start ledge trumping to air slash in smash art. Listen to @ Neo Zero when he says that it's really good because it REALLY is. Holy ****. LOL

 

[Neo Zero]

Yay I helped~

MADC sounds like a solid option. Next time I can actually play the game I'll have to try it out.

 

[Berserker.]

If you guys notice, every time we discuss the match up or any match up with anyone. We ALWAYS have these "how to deal with this guy with this art."

It's like we're really going with this 5-character mentality we have. What if we just use an art depending on the situation that's happening instead of just treating each art as if they were Shulk clones? I already made a long post about this like a few posts back but I want your opinions please. If you've been doing this already then share your feedback. Thanks~