Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[FlareHabanero]

DASCUS is not possible to do for any character.

 

[Masonomace]

Things I'll try out

- BDACUS/DACUS
- Stutter stepping smash attacks
- Stutter stepping back slash
- Interrupting back slash animation somehow with any move
- Mashing the B button in any scenario (Shielding, getting grabbed, getting hit, swimming, drowning, free fall, taunting)
- Buster with range mechanic
- Speed + DACUS
- Speed + any universal tech
- D throw combos
- Attempting to slide across the stage with speed somehow

Swiming I believe is removed, so swimming & drowning go hand-in-hand to the junkyard.

I wish for all of this to hopefully be true, but atm I'm mainly interested in Mashing B while getting grabbed. If we get the grabbing air release jumping back animation & are able to cycle through Monado Arts in mid-air, we may get frame neutrality or frame advantage for early Art strategizing.

@ FlareHabanero 's signature of KI characters spinning to winning is hyesz. G&W's walk is derp & I dig it.
DASCUS = Dash Attack Slide Canceled Up Smash? I DACUS so much it's usually always that abbrev. so I didn't know at first.

 

[Berserker.]

@ Masonomace

This should be in the OP imo. Great video

撃(Smash): stronger launch ability, weaker attacks, lower defense against launching = Knockback dealt, Damage dealt, Defense, Weight

Lower defense against weight = Weight
Lower defense = Damage received

 

[Starfall11]

I was a little disappointed that ZeRo didn't go into more depth about Shulk's gameplay. But he did mention how useful f-air is for aerial edge-guarding. And the Air Slash out of shield is such a beautiful KO at the end. Can't wait to use that all the time. Up B OOS will be so powerful for edgeguarding. Especially with Smash activated, really limits your opponent's options.

 

[Berserker.]

I was a little disappointed that ZeRo didn't go into more depth about Shulk's gameplay. But he did mention how useful f-air is for aerial edge-guarding. And the Air Slash out of shield is such a beautiful KO at the end. Can't wait to use that all the time. Up B OOS will be so powerful for edgeguarding. Especially with Smash activated, really limits your opponent's options.

Lol. The guy's been doing analysis videos for every character so it's best if we cut him some slack.

The video also reminded me that buster can actually combo.... No, really. I'm more encouraged now

 

[Masonomace]

Lower defense = Damage received

I'm not 110% on this, but I feel 90% sure Smash doesn't receive more % damage taken. IIRC Smash doesn't make Shulk take additional % damage according to this data. The reduced Defense is meant to be decreased launch resistance, but I will definitely add the video, that is much appreciated.

I was a little disappointed that ZeRo didn't go into more depth about Shulk's gameplay. But he did mention how useful f-air is for aerial edge-guarding. And the Air Slash out of shield is such a beautiful KO at the end. Can't wait to use that all the time. Up B OOS will be so powerful for edgeguarding. Especially with Smash activated, really limits your opponent's options.

I am too, but it's understandable. Veterans have more notice because they're past characters people have played & learned with from the beginnings; Shulk is a newcomer & it will take some time to understand his move kit fully. ZeRo explained the kind of character Shulk is in a nutshell quite well, because his MArts affect Shulk's stats that you'd have to understand a lot about Super Smash Brothers to know about Shulk. And I like that.

 

[Berserker.]

I'm not 110% on this, but I feel 90% sure Smash doesn't receive more % damage taken. IIRC Smash doesn't make Shulk take additional % damage according to this data. The reduced Defense is meant to be decreased launch resistance, but I will definitely add the video, that is much appreciated.

That's what I meant. Shulk doesn't take more damage with Smash activated.

Defense =/= Weight

That's what I meant. When Sakurai meant lower defense in his post, he meant lower launch resistance which sort of means "weight". Defense purely means damage received from. Basically, you don't need to put defense and weight as part of the list of attributes that are debuffed. You can remove defense and leave weight there

Minor wording issues aside, good job with the OP

 

[Masonomace]

That's what I meant. Shulk doesn't take more damage with Smash activated.

Defense =/= Weight

That's what I meant. When Sakurai meant lower defense in his post, he meant lower launch resistance which sort of means "weight". Defense purely means damage received from. Basically, you don't need to put defense and weight as part of the list of attributes that are debuffed. You can remove defense and leave weight there

Minor wording issues aside, good job with the OP

Hmm. . .True I guess. I feel Defense means more than just Damage taken though. I have Defense there in case the basic defense values Shulk has are affected. I've noted your case, but I won't remove it just yet. Are there any other fixes anyone notices?

 

[FlareHabanero]

Hmm... what about Speed? I don't hear much discussion from that Art, though I think due to the reduced jump and increased speed, I'd imagine it being your ideal approach option while on the ground.

 

[Opana]

Well, you guys have done a fantastic job.

The only thing I'd like to comment on is Monado Speed, as I read it may affect Air Speed. I believe that it does not, but it carries the momentum from the ground, which itself has potential IMO.

But yeah, great job guys.

 

[Masonomace]

Hmm... what about Speed? I don't hear much discussion from that Art, though I think due to the reduced jump and increased speed, I'd imagine it being your ideal approach option while on the ground.

By the way, does "weaker attacks" refer to less damage, less knocback, or both?

Ikr? Who doesn't want to be for 16 seconds.
And yeah weaker attacks boils down to dealing less % damage, & that hand-in-hand reduces the KnockBack of the moves. It's supposed to be a combo-promoting tactic by sacrificing some %.

A comparison of Speed versus regular Shulk is this:

Base Damage

Regular Shulk's Dash attack fresh deals 10%.
Speed Shulk's Dash attack fresh deals 7%

Well, you guys have done a fantastic job.

The only thing I'd like to comment on is Monado Speed, as I read it may affect Air Speed. I believe that it does not, but it carries the momentum from the ground, which itself has potential IMO.

But yeah, great job guys.

Thanks to the max. And it does happen to affect Shulk's Air Speed but by a slightly smaller margin than Shield would. I have seen Shulk's in Speed mode SH after running & I felt the momentum of them running so fast did carry over to their ShortHop. I'd have to study it more closely & compare it to a regular Shulk Dash+SH.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I would more so compare it to Little Mac, who sports a fast dash and small jumps. Though of course due to the differences with moves, you can't play Shulk like Little Mac with Speed active, due to a combination of not-**** tier aerial moves, slower attacks, and (with Speed active) weak attacks. Instead, use the speed so you can efficiantly close in on opponents that rely on keeping you at a distance. It's probably your best option to smash through Duck Hunt's projectile spamming for example.

 

[Masonomace]

I could call Speed mode a mix of , , & , but Speed Shulk is different than all 3 of them. CF is the idea that fast speed with a superior dash grab buff, so the grab-game with CF + his speed makes sense. LM for the fast movement speed & not-so-impressive jumps, & Sonic for the close movement speed comparison that CF or LM don't compare to, that Speed mode does challenge.
I still want to think that DuckHunt's frisbee he throws with his mouth can be item-catchable by pressing or to Air grab it. But that's something I'll have to wait for confirmation.

EDIT: Asking it again because it seems like a huge detriment to making Back Slash useful at early % or mid-game %, but Bthrowing a character sends them flying with their back facing toward us.
Thoughts?

 

[Berserker.]

As much as I call it a rush down proc, I think it's also a great punish proc. You can punish from a long distance with dashing then grab or a surprise u-smash (Or any smash) for the KO

 

[Masonomace]

If Shulk's traction increases or decreases when using Speed, then that could be good or bad depending on OoS options, carry-over momentum from running / Dash inputs, or JC'ing to Usmash. Hyphen Smash would be great too, all of Shulk's tactics that involve sliding on the ground can be crucial to Speed's metagame.

 

[Opana]

I don't have the full game, any data I contribute needs testing and is based off the demo/info I've read, but:

In Speed, if you skid or pivot, can you slide at all using an attack(Likely a Special)? Also, a Jump Canceled Throw using an item, or tossing an item out of a skid may produce a sizable slide with Speed.

 

[Masonomace]

I was able to play Sm4sh for a little while. 5 minutes tops so nothing really to discuss on my actual experience end. However from inputting a Bthrow > Back Slash, the character tumbling on the floor was hit by Back Slash's tipper hit, causing a jab-reset occurrence for me to follow up with Dash attack.

Speed's pivoting is amazing, pivoted sliding Ftilt, Fsmash, grab, & his Shield+stopping was fabulous. I was rather impressed with hands-on experience with Monado Speed.

EDIT: I've also learned to activate Arts airborne & not on the ground. Based off my 5 - 10 minutes of gameplay I felt like Shulk was suppressed doing an animation when switching to an Art & staying grounded. Shulk appeared to not do a suppressing animation airborne, staying on the ground activating the Art you want seems to be risky, leading me to believe that is why Shulk isn't seen often on the ground but mostly int he air when Arts are switched on.

Finally as a baiting tactic, I noticed a Shulk sit in neutral position not moving while switching Arts to bait the opponent, & turned out the opponent did approach with a Dash attack / Dash+grab & Shulk Sidestepped on purpose punishing with grab.

 

[Masonomace]

Double Post on purpose.

**Made small tiny updates to OP

If anyone has & is playing Smash3DS now, I'd like any inputs you can give as far as Shulk's % damages from his move-set in Training Mode. Any added info is appreciated to the max.

EDIT: Please tag me or reply to this post in regards to Shulk's OP improving.

 

[Berserker.]

@ Masonomace

....



To be updated

 

[Neo Zero]

So the game is out. Yay.

But the match up thread isn't open yet? What gives Ne--Shu, why is that? The answer is simple my fine party members, @Hokori and I have decided how we're going to rock MU discussion.

The main thread will remain locked, and will be a general haven for cataloguing all MU discussion. You might be asking, how am I supposed to discuss a MU in a locked thread? The answer is, you're not. Instead, every 2 weeks (may be shortened or increased depending) we'll be creating 3 MU threads, to discuss Shulk's MU vs the character the thread corresponds to. This first week though, we encourage you to practice, learn the character, and during your online and tournament exploits, to post here which 3 characters you want to be discussed first. Think we struggle against Bowser? Having trouble defeating Zero Suit Samus? Maybe you've figured out how to stomp Rosalina and want to share it. When casting your votes for the MUs you want discussed, please tag myself or Hokori so we can easily keep track of them. You can vote for 3 MUs, and the order you vote won't change the priority, top 3 get threads made for them first. We may even introduce a poll in another thread if need be. Until then, have fun guys, and lets make Shulk the best character he can be.

 

[Masonomace]

@ Neo Zero I dig all of that yellow text of hotness, but I think Shulk Dittos would be discuss-able this early on, since well, it's Shulk versus Shulk, & we know already that's going to be all about who outdoes who with MArts. This is what I had in mind sort of like the Spoilers I made, but one being a Starting Art MU discussion for Shulk dittos:

= Art Countering. Example = If they choose Shield, you choose Jump or Speed.
This seems self-explanatory, but the Shulk Ditto MU may literally come down to who can outplay who with Arts. No puns intended, because an Art has boosts to various stats & various setbacks to other stats. You'll counter the other Shulk's Art with yours, or vice versa. A < / > chart of Arts vs Arts can look like this:
Jump > Speed or Shield
Speed > Shield or Smash
Shield > Buster or Smash
Buster > Jump or Smash
Smash > Jump or Buster

For example: Jump is greater than Speed or Shield, because Jump's stat boost being Jump Height, are a setback that both Speed & Shield share, being reduced Jump Height. Jump is also greater than Speedor Shield because Jump's setbacks being Lighter Weight & Damage Taken Increased, barely affectJump especially when Speed & Shield's Damage Dealt Decreased, making Jump a favorable Art when versing another Shulk who's using Speed or Shield.

 

[Neo Zero]

Fair enough point my friend, but remember to save it for the actual threads ^^.

Maybe I will make a thread for voting as well actually. Let me discuss it with my Dorf Patrolman

I hope you all finally see why I said Nair is Love and Life btw

 

[Masonomace]

Fair enough point my friend, but remember to save it for the actual threads ^^.

Maybe I will make a thread for voting as well actually. Let me discuss it with my Dorf Patrolman

I hope you all finally see why I said Nair is Love and Life btw

Sorry but thanks you. WIll do. I will gladly do some voting, I'm fine with anytime you finish discussing to the max.

I did do a decent setup combo with Nair too. I tested it on Ike:

SH > Nair with DI towards him > Landing Grab > Pummel x1 > Uthrow > Utilt > Utilt > B-reversed Air Slash
It was above 34% I believe, or maybe at 34% exactly, it was all done in Training Mode so. .

I wanted to test the same combo but against Jigglypuff, & with using the Buster Art on. Over 40% combo is imminent.

EDITED: 34, not 24

 

[InfiniteTripping]

When he changes arts, does it still have the funky Japanese symbol behind him?

 

[Neo Zero]

It wasn't a true combo was it?

 

[Masonomace]

When he changes arts, does it still have the funky Japanese symbol behind him?

Yes, he still has the kanji character behind him.

It wasn't a true combo was it?

I wish I could tell you that it was, but I could not test for long so I had no more to confirm that it is a true combo. Considering Ike's weight value, & my eyes watching Ike in any hitstun while being combo'd, I felt the entire combo I listed in the last post was practically a true combo. A regular SH Nair with DI towards them so that you're in grab range to a Landing Grab probably isn't a true combo, but if the SH DI'd Nair was FastFallen. . .

 

[Neo Zero]

Training mode has the handy feature of telling you if it is. Iirc, Shulk can't chain Utilts (i don't think anyone technically can though)

 

[Masonomace]

Gah, If only I could remember the Training Mode's top right number being the combo number string(?).

Half of my time was spent in curious setups I thought may work, & if Dash attack had a tipper % damage. I had no luck, as it was always 10% no matter how spaced I was.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Training mode has the handy feature of telling you if it is. Iirc, Shulk can't chain Utilts (i don't think anyone technically can though)

Shulk can juggle with the up tilt, but it's more situational due to the angle and range greatly differing from say Link's up tilt. But the purpose of the move is to more so be an anti-air attack, due to it's long range allowing you to safely knock someone away from above.

 

[Masonomace]

Shulk can juggle with the up tilt, but it's more situational due to the angle and range greatly differing from say Link's up tilt. But the purpose of the move is to more so be an anti-air attack, due to it's long range allowing you to safely knock someone away from above.

I think of Shulk's Utilt like Project M Mewtwo's Utilt, and we all know how amazing of an anti-air tilt that is. It's even better if they AirDodge the Utilt because that's an easy frame trap upon landing.

 

[Starfall11]

Did anyone see the recent SHI-gaming tier list? Shulk as D/E Tier.... I think not. It'll take a while, but he has so much potential.

Damn guys, I'm at work now. As soon as I get out at 5:00. I'm running to the mall to pick it up. The hype is real!!! Anticipation is killing me!

 

[Berserker.]

Did anyone see the recent SHI-gaming tier list? Shulk as D/E Tier.... I think not. It'll take a while, but he has so much potential.

Damn guys, I'm at work now. As soon as I get out at 5:00. I'm running to the mall to pick it up. The hype is real!!! Anticipation is killing me!

Like what most people said, don't put too much weight on it

I'm getting used to Shulk and yes, I start with buster all the time. LOL

 

[Cereal Bawks]

I tend to start with speed or jump depending on who my opponent is.

 

[Opana]

Jump Shulk can auto cancel nairs off the low platforms with a short hop, thought it was worth a mention if it wasn't said already.

Speed Shulk->Pivot Grab is great for sliding them along to the ledge, and dair can set upgimps on those with poor recovery for early KOs out of the throws.

Uthrow can lead into Air Slash, depending on their di aim it left or right(I believe it works).

Back Slash towards the stage when at the right height makes you use it pretty much while you're gorunded.

I've found that full hop Fair->Nair can be pretty effective.

Smash shulk may be useful for Mac gimping, although it may be too risky.

Sorry if anything here is old/not useful.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Weirdly, I don't use Buster for racking up damage. I actually use Speed for that, due to it's characteristics allowing you to essencially dance around your opponent efficiantly, mainly to milk the neutral aerial attack having little landing lag and a strong pivot game.

I do however tend to use Buster at higher percentages so I can still rake up damage at above normal percentages, which helps make kills more secure when you eventually switch to Smash. This is especially empasized for characters with a lot of weight like Bowser.

In some situations, I might substitute Speed for Jump to throw off my opponents and having a more comfortable time when over the ledge.

 

[Berserker.]

I'm mostly starting with buster then I use speed. Speed is really great especially for grabs. For buster, I tend to get way too reckless at times >_>

Regardless, I usually use n-air. Back slash is surprisingly useful for... well punishing and edgeguarding. Lol. D-smash, I actually killed with it by using it near the edge. I don't know which art I use during a moment. It's as if I just use whatever's appropriate for the situation. It doesn't matter who I am up against

Oh and I back slashed over Luma shot to Rosalina. That was pretty funny

F-air and B-air are great. Incredibly LONG range. Also and for some reason, I use n-air to attack characters above me instead of u-air... I'm actually fine. Is that suppose to be a thing?

Counter is stupid easy to trigger. Problem is, I keep forgetting about the forward input variant. I see why so much players forget about it. Additionally, buster vision isn't as bad as I thought

For edgeguarding, I use Jump or Speed. I don't feel that good with Smash. I'm sure it's good for edgeguarding but I don't feel good enough. This is because I suck with recovering with Shulk. My only problem is that I have trouble recovering unless I don't have jump

I use jump whenever I feel like it but honestly, I'm fine with buster

Shield is amazing for surviving but god, I suck at turtling

I got a long way to go

 

[o-Serin-o]

Buster is best art for racking damage cuz it takes away from the distance someone would usually travel when being hit. It's useful as ****.

 

[AlphaDragoon2002]

Buster is risky but really good. I'm finding that I like Speed a lot too, people suddenly go deer in the headlights when Shulk's normal leisurely pace turns into an Olympic sprint with a lightsaber aimed at their face.

 

[Berserker.]

I was able to duck under Sheik's SH n-air with u-smash

I'm gonna retest this

 

[Starfall11]

people suddenly go deer in the headlights when Shulk's normal leisurely pace turns into an Olympic sprint with a lightsaber aimed at their face.

This is why I love this community and game so much, hahaha.

I've been using Buster early match to rack up percent, or Speed depending on the matchup. I feel Speed is the most underrated art right now, it is downright insane when you get used to it. Just wish I could play a whole match with it to get the feel for it more. Pivot grabbing and punishing any attack with a grab is amazing! I have shielded unbelievably long range attacks, and still had time to dash in and throw during my opponent's recovery.

On top of that, if you want combos... Use speed Shulk. When you knock them away, you can dash up and attack, then dash up, short hop and attack again, and again. I've managed some 4-6 hit combos. And I believe they were true combos.

Buster helps a lot, but you need to be cautious with it. Shield grab when necessary and abuse the range of N-air.

I'm still getting used to Smash, it's great when you land attacks, but you need to play insanely safe. I was KOed by the Levin Sword at 40% in Smash, I kid you not.

Shield seems useless to me right now since I'd rather play offensively rather than guarantee my survival. It has its uses, but you need to make sure you hit your opponent and don't just get KOed when it runs out. Otherwise, it isn't useful.

Jump is great too, but I suck horribly at edge guarding with it. Once I master that and canceling my air attacks, I'm sure it'll prove more useful.

In my playstyle I would say Speed > Buster > Smash. I'm working on mastering those first before moving on to the last arts.