Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[Berserker.]

I am disappointed.

These damage values are wrong. v.v

@HdTyvek

one of Shulks stances (i believe the red one) makes shulks attacks do less knock-back and i believe more percent? not 100% on the percent part, but the less knock-back is a big deal. with this ability do you think shulk will have a big combo game? havent gotten to watch much shulk gameply myself so i would like some opinions. thanks!

The less knockback actually also reduces the hitsun which hinders Shulk's combo game. His combo game (probably) starts existing at around er... 20%? 20-70% with buster? Depends on the character's weight but I'm betting on that range.

I wonder if it's possible to combo off counter... with buster, of course. At 50% to be safe.

 

[Masonomace]

@HdTyvek

The less knockback actually also reduces the hitsun which hinders Shulk's combo game. His combo game (probably) starts existing at around er... 20%? 20-70% with buster? Depends on the character's weight but I'm betting on that range.

I wonder if it's possible to combo off counter... with buster, of course. At 50% to be safe.

And lets not forget the best part about Buster, is when versing Light-Weight characters. The combo-potential starts at 0%.

Spoiler: Light-Weight characters from lowest to highest weight

Idk about combo potential versus any characters past Little Mac, though I see barely combo-able at low %, just not at very low%.

 

[Berserker.]

And lets not forget the best part about Buster, is when versing Light-Weight characters. The combo-potential starts at 0%.

Spoiler: Light-Weight characters from lowest to highest weight

Idk about combo potential versus any characters past Little Mac, though I see barely combo-able at low %, just not at very low%.

I really wanna try out combo'ing out of a vision counter. That would be amazing. UNLESS, I'm gonna guess that the reduced hitsun won't make it possible. Well, we'll see about that :|

Oh, here are some things I thought off regarding buster vs projectiles

Wait a minute... How the hell.... But... Buster makes you receive more damage (and more knockback)... And Shulk's rushdown options are not exactly that amazing. Well, yeah but there are actually good but a little more risky methods on how to actually deal with campers and use buster. How?

(Edit)
Yeah, it's difficult to deal with projectiles. It's pretty much one of Shulk's main weaknesses. Combine this with the fact that Shulk isn't that mobile (in buster stance also) makes buster risky against campers. So, is it still possible and actually somewhat fine to use buster against campers? Well, first, it all has something to do with one obvious thing you have to do all the time with buster especially : Don't take a lot of damage.

How do I deal with the projectiles campers throw at me?

First off, your massive range allows you to safely neutralize (some or most) projectiles. Not sure if you can neutralize all of them but as far as I know, you can neutralize bananas, Sonic's spring and well... That's all I know. It can also deflect Duck Hunt's projectiles. Maybe you can actually nullify more than what I listed but I DON'T KNOW. At least you know this. Also, n-air has no (or barely) any landing lag and it covers a lot of range so use that when attempting to nullify projectiles

That's nice and all but how do you close the gap?

Back slash. No seriously, back slash. Back slash at the right moment. You can seriously punish from a distance with back slash and even jump over some low moving projectiles. I recommend you use the aerial back slash since most of your options are actually mostly in mid-air. Other than back slash, use FH f-air then n-air mostly or just use n-air. Really, the only actual solid options of closing the gap is mostly in mid air with n-air, f-air or back slash. Most of Shulk's ground attacks that are "suppose" to help him close gaps against campers don't really work. It doesn't help that his dash attack is punishable (like most dash attacks). Your only actual ground option that can be used is still back slash and I pretty much explained this, it can jump over low-moving projectiles, blah blah. To be honest, this easier said than done but it's by all means not impossible

FINALLY, I got close to them.... What now?

Stay on them, keep a distance as always (Especially against Duck Hunt) and maximize your range. Use your quick attacks like jab or surprise them with d-smash or f-smash or go for the grab then b-throw them off the edge or do a u-throw to u-tilt damage set up. Use vision if you need to. Usually, it's probably preferred to use the variation that has more base knockback but it seems to lack range so the weaker, slower but longer ranged variation might work better at times. It really depends. Punish their rolls with d-smash. ALWAYS stay on them and maximize your distance. I should note that some campers actually still have a solid or fantastic close ranged options. Most notably Duck Hunt Dog. Tread carefully against Duck Hunt Dog.

Take note that you can only use the stronger variation of counter while grounded. It does not work in mid air. Sadly

This sounds nice and all but I wanna play safe.... Then use speed or jump. Boom. Now it's much easier than being risky with buster. To be honest, I'm not even close to 90% sure about this and that's why some opinions would be helpful and very much welcomed. Even the ones that would say, "This will never work." which I can actually 100% understand


You know, there was a wall of text that was suppose to talk about Shulk's defensive/safe- offensive playstyle with all the spacing, taking advantage of the range and how his playstyle changes depending on his monado art and stuff but screw wall of texts for now

tl;dr: Use your range. Unless you're not using speed or jump, or for the sake of playing safe, even if you are using speed or jump, don't be reckless. Punish. Outrange.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I wouldn't compare Shulk to any incarnation of Marth. Marth has more agility and his attacks sync into each other better for a stronger combo game (especially in the air), while Shulk is more so designed to play defensively by exploiting the long range of the Monado and changing his attributes to whatever the situation asks for. Play Shulk like Marth and you'll preform badly, that's all I have to say.

 

[Berserker.]

I wouldn't compare Shulk to any incarnation of Marth. Marth has more agility and his attacks sync into each other better for a stronger combo game (especially in the air), while Shulk is more so designed to play defensively by exploiting the long range of the Monado and changing his attributes to whatever the situation asks for. Play Shulk like Marth and you'll preform badly, that's all I have to say.

Alright. My mistake.

Shulk's a different beast so I guess I can't really make any accurate comparisons. Not that it's a bad thing

 

[Masonomace]

I really wanna try out combo'ing out of a vision counter. That would be amazing. UNLESS, I'm gonna guess that the reduced hitsun won't make it possible. Well, we'll see about that :|

Oh, here are some things I thought off regarding buster vs projectiles

Wait a minute... How the hell.... But... Buster makes you receive more damage... And Shulk's rushdown options are not exactly that amazing. Well, yeah but there are actually good but a little more risky methods on how to actually deal with campers and use buster. How? Well, first, it all has something to do with one obvious thing you have to do all the time with buster especially : Don't take a lot of damage.
Buster not only makes Shulk receive more damage taken but also takes more KB given to us; you should of noted that here in your starting point about Buster versus projectiles. The extra emphasis tells us exactly just how difficult it is to use the Buster Art versus zoners / hazard-users / wall-of-pains, unless the bonus % damage dealt advantage increases the priority of every attack Shulk uses helps against projectiles. (Even if people know about the advantages & setbacks, it's still a good reminder for us plus for those who read your post & know little about Shulk)
Regardless, not taking damage is still a crucial piece of advice.
How do I deal with the projectiles campers throw at me?

First off, your massive range allows you to safely neutralize (some or most) projectiles. Not sure if you can neutralize all of them but as far as I know, you can neutralize bananas, Sonic's spring and well... That's all I know. It can also deflect Duck Hunt's projectiles. Maybe you can actually nullify more than what I listed but I DON'T KNOW. At least you know this. Also, n-air has no (or barely) any landing lag and it covers a lot of range so use that when attempting to nullify projectiles
This is a good point to make for Shulk, good stuff. I would of said that some if not half or most projectiles overall got set back in range, their distance, & weakened priority; the lessened priority projectiles have in Sm4sh now open up possibilities for Shulk to use ground, aerial, or special attacks against projectiles to clash or out-beat them with higher priority. Here you only tell about Shulk's attacks nullifying projectiles, but you didn't state every option Shulk has that can help deal with projectiles, such as:

• Jumping -- for linear projectiles that may be slowly-guided too, are evaded by a ShortHop, FullHop, or using your Double Jump if the height & coverage of the prohjectiles are that formidable. Fastfalling is a follow-up option to Jumping.
• Crouching -- Shulk's crouching height isn't effective when dealing with linear projectiles at ground level. Albeit a grounded trap that's movable (Bowser Jr.'s Mechakoopa) helps you set up a Dtilt if the priority is higher than that projectile / hazard.
• Shielding -- regardless if it's a held shield or power-shield, it's always used as a common alternative if your attacks don't have priority against certain projectiles. Sitting in shield too long however doesn't help deal with projectiles so you can't rely on shield all the time.
• Sidestepping -- projectiles who come at a very fast rate whether they're linear or guided makes Sidestepping nifty.
• Rolling -- This is more of a option that does two things: One being an option used to deal with projectiles by Two, closing the gap, which is preferred to be in your second point below.
• Attacks -- ground aerial & special attacks can be used to deal with projectiles assuming for now & given later their priority is higher than the projectile they're challenging. If the attack has too much start-up and / or ending cooldown, the worth of the effort using the move is less rewarding unless you're in range of the opponent. Attacks used for projectiles accounts for aerial traps too, provided that Utilt stops most of the falling items / projectiles like Sonic's Spring & Samus' Bomb.
• Item catching (Grounded or Airborne called Air Grab) -- this is an advanced tactic when dealing with thrown items that can be grabbed, such as Mega Man's Metal Blade or Link & Toon Link's bombs. All items that are thrown can be caught on the ground or in the air with an Air Grab, unless the item is too heavy which so far is Wario's Bike. Here's a list of all of Sm4sh's thrown items that can if not be absolutely caught (some need testing):

Spoiler: Thrown Items by fighters that can be caught

= Banana Peel & Peanuts
= Trick Shot? Doubtful, now Clay Pigeon Attack? Believable but both need testing
/= Bombs
= Metal Blade
= Bonus Fruit's 8 items? (though we need to test if we can catch all 8 of his items. I'm fairly sure we can, but again, testing is needed)
= Vegetable
= Gyro
/= Levin Sword & Tomes (they can be caught & thrown surprisingly)
/= Wood Chip (occasionally produced from their Timber Down Special)
/= Header? (needs testing)

That's nice and all but how do you close the gap?

Back slash. No seriously, back slash. Back slash at the right moment. You can seriously punish from a distance with back slash and even jump over some low moving projectiles. I recommend you use the aerial back slash since most of your options are actually mostly in mid-air. Other than back slash, use FH f-air then n-air mostly or just use n-air. Really, the only actual solid options of closing the gap is mostly in mid air with n-air, f-air or back slash. Most of Shulk's ground attacks that are "suppose" to help him close gaps against campers don't really work. It doesn't help that his dash attack is punishable (like most dash attacks). Your only actual ground option that can be used is still back slash and I pretty much explained this, it can jump over low-moving projectiles, blah blah. To be honest, this easier said than done but it's by all means not impossible
Interesting. Airborne Back Slash used with forward or backward DI movement can close the gap by a bit or by a lot, but watching Back Slash in mid-air frame-by-frame however, the move can be punishable with shield+grab or OOS USmash, & probably should be used safely after the opponent makes a huge mis-input or a move that has laggy start-up / cooldown. Disregarding the Enduring Back Slash custom special having Super Armor, Back Slash used grounded is fairly useful & looks faster than an aerial Back Slash, & also for evading grounded linear projectiles like Samus Missile or Villager Lloyd Rocket too. I'd debate that Shulk can close the gap with Shielding+Rolling towards them, assuming we're far away from them after being launched away or in Neutral Game approaching. I'm surprised you didn't mention using Vision's regular or forwarded counter proc input to close the gap for approaching; the reason I bring up Vision is because Shielding while it's a decent & reliable option for projectile-poking, Vision saves your shield strength. A more common close-gapping tactic can be Dash-Shield-Cancel into Roll. Buffering that input & the general safety of rolling in Sm4sh, it would probably be more safe using it than Back Slash being more situational yet useful.
FINALLY, I got close to them.... What now?

Stay on them, keep a distance as always (Especially against Duck Hunt) and maximize your range. Use your quick attacks like jab or surprise them with d-smash or f-smash or go for the grab then b-throw them off the edge or do a u-throw to u-tilt damage set up. Use vision if you need to. Usually, it's probably preferred to use the variation that has more base knockback but it seems to lack range so the weaker, slower but longer ranged variation might work better at times. It really depends. Punish their rolls with d-smash. ALWAYS stay on them and maximize your distance. I should note that some campers actually still have a solid or fantastic close ranged options. Most notably Duck Hunt Dog. Tread carefully against Duck Hunt Dog.
Indeed. For Buster playing safe not to get damaged, spacing your Monado attacks to be near the tip despite doing less damage than the blade portion, it's worth the safety of having healty % health. Dtilt for poking & stage control & Utilts thrown out if they input SH's that are DI'd toward you regardless if they're mixing up or not. Ftilt I feel should be used for KO's & not used constantly for pivot cancels & such, thus Jab1 2 & 3 for landing punishes. A lot of SH+Nairs will be used for close-quarters with FH+Fairs or even FH+Dair for aerial presence to landing Nair if that's possible. Mostly though Buster used at close-quarters is still risky unless you play a more patient-defensive-style punishing with grabs+pummels+throws being a great % dealing tactic. DSmash for rolling reads or FSmash if you pivot / turn it around from a hard read. If you don't feel comfortable using Smashes then a pivot grab or pivoted Ftilt does great for spacing.
Take note that you can only use the stronger variation of counter while grounded. It does not work in mid air. Sadly
Bummer May Horus.
"This sounds nice and all but I wanna play safe...." Then use speed or jump. Boom. Now it's much easier than being risky with buster. To be honest, I'm not even close to 90% sure about this and that's why some opinions would be helpful and very much welcomed. Even the ones that would say, "This will never work." which I can actually 100% understand


You know, there was a wall of text that was suppose to talk about Shulk's defensive/safe- offensive playstyle with all the spacing, taking advantage of the range and how his playstyle changes depending on his monado art and stuff but screw wall of texts for now

tl;dr: Use your range. Unless you're not using speed or jump, or for the sake of playing safe, even if you are using speed or jump, don't be reckless. Punish. Outrange.

Following up after a Vision counter proc to combos is something do-able I see done after any other Art's attacks except Buster being the only one. So I got nothing for Buster in that regard. Most of the points I make are disregarding Custom Specials.

Rest of my replies are in your quote.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Alright. My mistake.

Shulk's a different beast so I guess I can't really make any accurate comparisons. Not that it's a bad thing

If you do have to make a comparison, the closest you're going to get is Ike. Both characters support above normal range with their respective swords, and rely on defensive tactics due to the slow speed of their attacks. Again, there's a key difference in that Ike uses a lot of raw power to punish his opponents, while with Shulk it's a lot more complicated due to the potential of changing his tactics with the Monado Arts.

 

[Berserker.]

Buster not only makes Shulk receive more damage taken but also takes more KB given to us; you should of noted that here in your starting point about Buster versus projectiles. The extra emphasis tells us exactly just how difficult it is to use the Buster Art versus zoners / hazard-users / wall-of-pains, unless the bonus % damage dealt advantage increases the priority of every attack Shulk uses helps against projectiles. (Even if people know about the advantages & setbacks, it's still a good reminder for us plus for those who read your post & know little about Shulk)
Regardless, not taking damage is still a crucial piece of advice.

Noted

This is a good point to make for Shulk, good stuff. I would of said that some if not half or most projectiles overall got set back in range, their distance, & weakened priority; the lessened priority projectiles have in Sm4sh now open up possibilities for Shulk to use ground, aerial, or special attacks against projectiles to clash or out-beat them with higher priority. Here you only tell about Shulk's attacks nullifying projectiles, but you didn't state every option Shulk has that can help deal with projectiles, such as:

• Jumping -- for linear projectiles that may be slowly-guided too, are evaded by a ShortHop, FullHop, or using your Double Jump if the height & coverage of the prohjectiles are that formidable.Fastfalling is a follow-up option to Jumping.
• Crouching -- Shulk's crouching height isn't effective when dealing with linear projectiles at ground level. Albeit a grounded trap that's movable (Bowser Jr.'s Mechakoopa) helps you set up a Dtilt if the priority is higher than that projectile / hazard.
• Shielding -- regardless if it's a held shield or power-shield, it's always used as a common alternative if your attacks don't have priority against certain projectiles. Sitting in shield too long however doesn't help deal with projectiles so you can't rely on shield all the time.
• Sidestepping -- projectiles who come at a very fast rate whether they're linear or guided makes Sidestepping nifty.
• Rolling -- This is more of a option that does two things: One being an option used to deal with projectiles by Two, closing the gap, which is preferred to be in your second point below.
• Attacks -- ground aerial & special attacks can be used to deal with projectiles assuming for now & given later their priority is higher than the projectile they're challenging. If the attack has too much start-up and / or ending cooldown, the worth of the effort using the move is less rewarding unless you're in range of the opponent. Attacks used for projectiles accounts for aerial traps too, provided that Utilt stops most of the falling items / projectiles like Sonic's Spring & Samus' Bomb.
• Item catching (Grounded or Airborne called Air Grab) -- this is an advanced tactic when dealing with thrown items that can be grabbed, such as Mega Man's Metal Blade or Link & Toon Link's bombs. All items that are thrown can be caught on the ground or in the air with an Air Grab, unless the item is too heavy which so far is Wario's Bike. Here's a list of all of Sm4sh's thrown items that can if not be absolutely caught

I'm not sure if DHD's projectiles can be caught at all. Not sure about peanuts either. I don't think the peanuts or DHD's projectiles can be caught

Interesting. Airborne Back Slash used with forward or backward DI movement can close the gap by a bit or by a lot, but watching Back Slash in mid-air frame-by-frame however, the move can be punishable with shield+grab or OOS USmash, & probably should be used safely after the opponent makes a huge mis-input or a move that has laggy start-up / cooldown. Disregarding the Enduring Back Slash custom special having Super Armor, Back Slash used grounded is fairly useful & looks faster than an aerial Back Slash, & also for evading grounded linear projectiles like Samus Missile or Villager Lloyd Rocket too. I'd debate that Shulk can close the gap with Shielding+Rolling towards them, assuming we're far away from them after being launched away or in Neutral Game approaching. I'm surprised you didn't mention using Vision's regular or forwarded counter proc input to close the gap for approaching; the reason I bring up Vision is because Shielding while it's a decent & reliable option for projectile-poking, Vision saves your shield strength. A more common close-gapping tactic can be Dash-Shield-Cancel into Roll. Buffering that input & the general safety of rolling in Sm4sh, it would probably be more safe using it than Back Slash being more situational yet useful.

Vision can be a gap closer but it really depends on how far you are from the opponent. I'm guessing what you mean is countering a projectile from a certain distance from the opponent such that when you counter it, the triggered attack will reach the opponent. Problem is there's a chance of you possibly whiffing it, and whiffing it can really hurt a lot especially with buster proc activated. Additionally, even if you land a hit with vision, you're still open to punishment but that really depends on the character you're facing (If he or she or it has fast attacks). I wouldn't worry about this if we were talking about light weights or if the opponent's percentage is above 50%

I agree with you about back slash

I almost forgot about dash-shield-cancel and shield rolling. Was too focused on Shulk's moves. Lol.

 

[Masonomace]

Noted

I'm not sure if DHD's projectiles can be caught at all. Not sure about peanuts either. I don't think the peanuts or DHD's projectiles can be caught

Vision can be a gap closer but it really depends on how far you are from the opponent. I'm guessing what you mean is countering a projectile from a certain distance from the opponent such that when you counter it, the triggered attack will reach the opponent. Problem is there's a chance of you possibly whiffing it, and whiffing it can really hurt a lot especially with buster proc activated. Additionally, even if you land a hit with vision, you're still open to punishment but that really depends on the character you're facing (If he or she or it has fast attacks). I wouldn't worry about this if we were talking about light weights or if the opponent's percentage is above 50%

I agree with you about back slash

I almost forgot about dash-shield-cancel and shield rolling. Was too focused on Shulk's moves. Lol.

Sorry but thank you. I brought up DuckHunt's Clay Pigeon Attack being catch-able because he throws it. Any items thrown will have a very likely chance they can be caught in mid-air, by using an Air Grab pressing the triggers or since Shulk has no Z-air that acts like a tether.

In Brawl Diddy's peanut popgun bullets being peanuts did drop little peanut drops that could be picked up healing whoever did, but so far in every Diddy video I've watched, edible food peanuts don't drop when peanut shells hit shields or destroyed / break. Though I'm fairly certain Peanuts can be picked up by airgrabbing them. The problem with airgrabbing anything in mid-air is that AirDodging upon landing causes landing lag so it may be unsafe to airgrab a peanut.

And yeah I was meaning to say Vision used to close the gap relatively close to the opponent already to be in range of a Vision counter proc, being the forward dashing one or regular default proc.

 

[Berserker.]

Sorry but thank you. I brought up DuckHunt's Clay Pigeon Attack being catch-able because he throws it. Any items thrown will have a very likely chance they can be caught in mid-air, by using an Air Grab pressing the triggers or since Shulk has no Z-air that acts like a tether

Clay pigeon doesn't looks more like a projectile but it's not really treated like an "item" projectile. The animation and how it looks in motion makes it look like it but I don't think it can be caught

Oh, I think we should talk about his other custom specials that aren't monado arts mostly. I feel like Shulk's custom specials are mostly disappointing. Lol. Especially the custom specials for back slash

 

[NinjaLink]

I have uploaded all of Shulk's Custom Moves. Hope it helps

 

[Berserker.]

http://youtu.be/6uGmBR1o6qY?t=4m20s

Did anyone notice that Shulk's b-air's weird knockback trajectory?

 

[DraginHikari]

http://youtu.be/6uGmBR1o6qY?t=4m20s

Did anyone notice that Shulk's b-air's weird knockback trajectory?

Just kind of looks like the knockback got screwed up at the point and direction ZSS hit the Monado animation but it's kind of hard for me to tell.

 

[Masonomace]

Oh, I think we should talk about his other custom specials that aren't monado arts mostly. I feel like Shulk's custom specials are mostly disappointing. Lol. Especially the custom specials for back slash

Custom Specials seem like thin ice to be tournament-legal for now, but I'm down to discuss them like an early bird. Here's my intake on the rest of Shulk's Custom Moves thanks to @ Chauzu & @ NinjaLink for posting their videos on YT & in the Shulk threads. Thanks a lot guys. Below are my spoilers, but fair warning that they're kind of long to read so bear with me, not bare.

Spoiler: Back Slash Leap (BSL) UPDATED x2

Back Slash Leap (BSL)
Usage
BSL's usage favors more anti-air that stuff the opponent's approach whether they FH or SH aerials, using BSL to cover all of the air in front of Shulk. More options & usage include precise ledge-guard punishes for their means of getting back on the stage whether it's ledge-hopping, ledge-jumping, rolling, get-up, or get-up attack, BSL can cover it all. BSL used often for anti-air conditions the opponent into running forward & shielding hoping to punish you, but you bait with a grab punish. Things like that including utilizing the high jump BSL produces can avoid low-to-the-ground linear projectiles, even though some projectiles like Mario Fireball get neutralized by the EBS coming down on them.
Damage
Frontward facing damage:
Blade Portions:Grounded (close-ranged): 10% http://youtu.be/qUy2BEtszlQ?t=42s
Airborne (close-ranged)?: ??% Unknown / Needs testing
Beam Portions:Grounded (tipped): 8% http://youtu.be/HjZFi0kF-VY?t=4m53sAirborne (tipped): 9% http://youtu.be/qUy2BEtszlQ?t=33s

Bonus points on why the %'s are correct: In the GIF above we see Fox hit by the Beam's very tip right as the Monado slams on the ground hitting Fox's feet, but not his hand during his idle animation. BSL's Beam at it's maximum reach of connecting is the grounded-slam hit. It slightly increased due to the downward & slightly forward angle of BSL coming down. And Fox not being a big character with a large hurt-box affects this outcome very little. Also take notice the KB with a slashing crescent visual effect flying out.

In the GIF above, Shulk deals 9% the first time, showing the same slashing visual effect appearing but only for a very quick moment; the slashing crescent visual effect flies at a 45 degree angle this time instead of the straight-out trajectory. The second BSL deals 8% & barely hits Mario's DJ with the ground slamming attack from the Beam's portion. Below shows Shulk's BSL coming down hitting Mario right before landing, dealing 9%

Backward facing damage:
Blade Portions:
Grounded (close-ranged): 16% http://youtu.be/qUy2BEtszlQ?t=38s
Airborne (close-ranged)?: ??% Unknown / Needs testing
Beam Portions:
Grounded: ??% Unknown / Needs testing
Airborne:14% http://youtu.be/HjZFi0kF-VY?t=6m6s

Spoiler: Back Slash Charge (BSC) UPDATED x2

Back Slash Charge (BSC)
Usage
An amazing horizontal gap-close dashing lunge having Super Armor frames to ignore projectiles, traps, & hazards, with an extra slide towards the end of the move for bonus distance. Despite the weaker dealing front-facing % damage & KB, BSC has augmented horizontal movement & the ability to trade % grounded or airborne. Keep in mind that BSC has terrible cooldown from the lunging distance / sliding at the end, so definitely use it wisely, & go for stage-long punishes if you can. To utilize BSC the most, you have to get in very close to do significant damage, although the slide helps ledge-guard the stage fairly well, so play safe if you want.

Note: RAR+aerials are a common tactic for edge-guarding on the stage; others use it on stage during Neutral Game too. BSC destroys the RAR+aerial option usable by every character, so watch for when players use RAR+Airs into back facing aerials, it's a free worthy punish!
Damage
Frontward facing damage:
Blade portions:
Airborne (close range hit-box against grounded): 4% http://youtu.be/HjZFi0kF-VY?t=6m34s
Airborne (close ranged airborne trade) 6% http://youtu.be/HjZFi0kF-VY?t=7m49s

Here's a GIF of Shulk's BSC trading with Ganon's SH+Fair, & the result of the trade-off was dealing only 6% while airborne with super armor. So the lesson to be learned here is to never trade with BSC against a front-facing opponent regardless of who it is.
Beam portion:
TECHNICALLY Airborne (tippered): 3% http://youtu.be/HjZFi0kF-VY?t=6m31s
Grounded (sliding Monado Beam forward hit-box): ??% Unknown / Needs testing

And here's my proof of why I stated Shulk's BSC's airborne hit-box is this image above. At first I thought it was BSC's grounded beam portion, however that's not the case here. Because Shulk's grounded hits always involve one certain animation to know it's a grounded move or not, his leg, just what I have circled in green.

Take precise notice that his leg is bent & down to the ground level after the former picture.. That leg animation is the key to knowing when & if Shulk has landed yet, which he has now, but being later than the first picture.
Backward facing damage:
Blade portions:
Airborne (close-ranged): 11% http://youtu.be/HjZFi0kF-VY?t=6m52s
Airborne (Glass-circle hit-box aka closest you can be): 13% http://youtu.be/HjZFi0kF-VY?t=7m34s
Airborne (close-ranged trading with the airborne foe facing away): 15% http://youtu.be/HjZFi0kF-VY?t=7m55s
Grounded(s): ??% Unknown / Needs testing

BSC seems tricky, but since this Custom Move is more Blade-savvy during close range & airborne heavily preferring to deal backward facing % damage. It's plausible to think the airborne attacks of BSC's % damage can change based on the range, though for this Custom Move Blade portioned hit-boxes increase makes this a recommended Melee-ranged move despite BSC's means of wonderful horizontal approaching.

Take notice of the particular moment Shulk places perfectly in the right spot to do a more powerful Backward facing BSC doing 13%, that shows the Monado's Glass circle literally swung & batters against Fox's cranium, displaying a white/blue shining star with the overhead red streaking line formed by Shulk's BSC sweet-spotting. Afterwards, Fox is launched surrounded by a large blast trail hit with additional knockback.
Sweet-spotted Back Slash Charge with the Glass circle down below:

Sweet-spotted Back Slash Charge with the Glass circle up above.

Here's an interesting clip above I noticed that others may have seen too. Behold! Airborne close-range trading! The greatness of of trading with Ganon normally isn't a smart move & not healthy for your % health. However a BSC trade airborne with Ganon's Bair scored Shulk a 15% trade-punish most likely for the better, since I don't see Ganon's Bair doing 15% or more. I'll need someone to clarify that for me if so.
Beam Portions:
Grounded (sliding Beam tippered): ??% Unknown / Needs testing
Grounded (landing tippered) ??% Unknown / Needs testing
Airborne (tippered): ??% Unknown / Needs testing

Spoiler: Advancing Air Slash (AAS) UPDATED x2

Advancing Air Slash (AAS)
Usage
Useful for snapping the ledge with an extra horizontal dash as FAS's second input. The moves cross-up together more frequently, combo'ing into both hits more consistently, & probably a better option when in shield, perform: OoS+JumpCanceled+ForwardAirSlash (OoSJCFAS) to punish any frame window you can on shield. The main usage for this is to have well-rounded recovery focusing on the horizontal gain & not so much the vertical gain.
Damage
Blade portion:
1st hit-box (grounded): 5% http://youtu.be/qUy2BEtszlQ?t=1m20s
1st hit-box (very close range airborne): ??% Unknown / Needs testing
2nd hit-box (auto-airborne): 8% http://youtu.be/qUy2BEtszlQ?t=1m21s
During Trela's Game 2 in the Shulk Videos Thread, he performs Air Slash off-stage at this moment:
http://youtu.be/zhTMY_PdeE0?t=1m7s
The first Air Slash he deals was peanut damage but the second Air Slash Trela inputs while literally being inside of Sheik's hurt-box connects & deals 6% with strong KB too. So, we may possibly have 3 hit-boxes on both Customized Air Slashes.
*Adding in a missing ??%'s just in case it's found & noted by official testing.
Beam portion:
1st hit-box (grounded): 4% http://youtu.be/qUy2BEtszlQ?t=1m30s
2nd hit-box (auto-airborne): ??% Unknown / Needs testing

Spoiler: Mighty Air Slash (MAS) UPDATED x2

Mighty Air Slash (MAS)
Usage
Pumps out serious damage. MAS's two-hit Blade-box deals 18% fresh proving to be a formidable OoS option. OoSJCMAS can be safe & solid given you don't miss the 2nd hit, however the setbacks of using MAS include: shortened reach of both Air slashes, decreased horizontal distance, & MAS's 1st weak KB & strict timing for the 2nd Slash. Using this move against light-weights & mid-light-weights seems to be more effective, similarly like Buster mode. We might as well call this Custom Special "BustAir Slash.
Damage
Blade portion:
1st hit-box: 8% http://youtu.be/qUy2BEtszlQ?t=5m20s
1st hit-box (very close range airborne): ??% Unknown / Needs testing
2nd hit-box: 10% http://youtu.be/qUy2BEtszlQ?t=5m21s
During Trela's Game 2 in the Shulk Videos Thread, he performs Air Slash off-stage at this moment:
http://youtu.be/zhTMY_PdeE0?t=1m7s
The first Air Slash he deals was peanut damage, but the second Air Slash Trela inputs while literally being inside of Sheik's hurt-box connects & deals 6% with strong KB too. So, we MAY possibly have 3 hit-boxes on both Customized Air Slashes.
*Adding in a missing ??%'s just in case it's found & noted by official testing.
Beam portion
1st hit-box: 6% http://youtu.be/qUy2BEtszlQ?t=5m43s
2nd hit-box: ??% Unknown / Needs testing

Spoiler: Dash Vision (DV) UPDATED x2

Dash Vision (DV)
Usage
For now you want to always trigger DV grounded. For said reasons DV triggered airborne is slower & is closely similar to Default Vision's exact animation & speed. Your airborne push-back & dashing+slide becomes much slower than what the name entails. DV operates like a faster but weaker version of the Default Vision. DV still emits a bursting Zone that slows down the foe who triggers it much like Default Vision, & like Vision, the foe won't be slowed down if they're not in range of the Zone so be wary of it. Lastly, DV's trigger used for projectiles is excellent because at mid-range you instantly close whatever gap there is between you & the opponent. Keep in mind that a second projectile can stop you in your tracks, but if you're able to trade with the long dashing slide attack with the Beam portion, then it's worth it.
Damage
Blade portion:
Grounded hit-box: 8%
Airborne hit-box: ??% Unknown / Needs testing
Beam portion:
Grounded hit-box: 5%
Airborne hit-box: ??% Unknown / Needs testing
Forwarded Input:
Grounded hit-box ONLY: 11%
Damage multiplier: 1.0x

BONUS: DV's aerial counter triggered doesn't dash forward immediately like it's grounded option, as seen here:
http://youtu.be/qUy2BEtszlQ?t=2m32s
It seems that Shulk's ADV (Aerial Dash Vision) resembles Shulk's Default Vision without inputting the Dashing forward input. Thoughts?

Spoiler: Power Vision (PV) UPDATED x2

Power Vision (PV)
Usage
PV's trigger deals insane % & KB. If you want some evidence of how strong it can be click this. I'm not currently aware if PV has a forwarded dash input or a alternate option like Default Vision can, but PV's setbacks include:

• PV's counter overall is slow
• Slower dash+slide while also having a slower start-up
• PV's bursting 'Zone' doesn't freeze-frame the foe aka 'trigger'. This hurts the counter's effectiveness a lot
• In general is harder to use successfully after it's triggered

That said I feel the majority won't pick PV to be Shulk's DownB simply because the 'Zone' doesn't slow down the foe. PV's counter-frame window is apparently longer than the others, but I can't guarantee that with facts. If you're against heavy-hitting characters, this Custom Move may serve you well. Buster and / or Smash could fit right at home with PV.
Damage
Blade portion:
Grounded: 17% http://youtu.be/qUy2BEtszlQ?t=6m48s
Airborne: ??% Unknown / Needs testing
Beam portion:
Grounded: 17%
Airborne: ??% Unknown / Needs testing
Forwarded Input:
Grounded hit-box ONLY: 20%
Damage multiplier: 1.5x

 

[Berserker.]

A lot of things about custom movesets

Good job, Masonomace! :D

I'll put this in my first post in this thread if you're fine with it

I'm gonna make a post about Shulk's n-air specifically purely based on video footage and how it's being used but.... I have to get some shut eye T_T

 

[McX]

Quick question.
Can we change monado arts in the middle of another monado art, and if so, can we just switch to another art and then switch back to the art we want if we want the art to effectively last longer? So instead of waiting through another monado art (11+ seconds) to get, say, buster back, we just switch to another art and then instantly switch back to buster (4 seconds or so)
I haven't seen anyone playing shulk who's tried this yet.

 

[Berserker.]

Quick question.
Can we change monado arts in the middle of another monado art, and if so, can we just switch to another art and then switch back to the art we want if we want the art to effectively last longer? So instead of waiting through another monado art (11+ seconds) to get, say, buster back, we just switch to another art and then instantly switch back to buster (4 seconds or so)
I haven't seen anyone playing shulk who's tried this yet.

Yes, you can switch while in the middle of using a Monado art (Edit: Unless it's decisive monado arts you are using)

As for the latter question, Monado arts has an internal cooldown so it's likely that you won't be able to use it again that quickly

Edit:

Er... I'm a bit burnt out on what to talk about. Never mind about the n-air.... Hm...

Maybe we should talk about his Smash stance more

 

[Masonomace]

Edit:

Er... I'm a bit burnt out on what to talk about. Never mind about the n-air.... Hm...

Maybe we should talk about his Smash stance more

Smash as an entire topic? Gladly! (Also I'll be updating my post of all of Shulk's SideB DownB & UpB custom moves in the spoilers over time, watch out for that)

What we know now about Smash mode already (Anyone fill in what I didn't please & thank you):

• Smash mode (like all of Shulk's Monado Arts), lasts for anywhere in-between 16 - 17 seconds.
• Smash's % damage decreases by 50%, literally cutting his damage output by half. Ouch.
• Shulk's weight, when activating Smash, goes from being 102 to 89.5. Think of it the visualization like you're , then you activate Smash mode, & now you're /, or .
• [D]Smash mode lasts for 20 seconds exactly.
• That above point of [D]Smash mode lasting for 20 seconds is fairly useless, making [D]Arts for Smash at all highly risky.
• [E]Smash lasts exactly for 6 seconds
• [E]Smash activated makes our weight become the lightest character in the game. Go from a 102 , down to 67, which is -1 less than .

Pros:

• Knock-back increase

Cons:

• % damage decrease
• Defense decreased
• Weight decreased

By Defense decreased, it's meant to only be weakened against launches / knock-back. Shulk doesn't take more % damage or anything like that. However when decreasing his weight which affects the KB formula along with becoming weak against KB / launches already, Smash mode becomes extremely risky against heavy-hitters sucn as & .

EDIT: For topics, I'd discuss the importance of reasons behind spacing with the tipper portion of the Beam, in contrast to the importance of using the Blade portion of the Monado itself in diverse situations & scenarios, & how that can affect our game-play witheverything about Shulk. It also opens up to more play-style possibilities as well with the Custom Moves assorted to being "Better off Beam" & "Better off Blade".

Basically:
when & why should we be spacing with the Beam, & when & why should we be using the Blade portion.

 

[Berserker.]

No matter what, spacing with the tipper portion is the safe way on how to deal with opponents. Here's the thing, I'm thinking that stances that do not enhance Shulk's mobility are better off spacing with the beam while stances with mobility enhancements can use the blade or beam if they want since it's easy to get away from opponents and to just avoid taking damage unlike while being in buster or smash. Shield well.... It's a similar case to speed and jump but why? Mostly because you're too immobile. You're better off just letting them come at you or you come at them. It really doesn't matter. The punishment you'll take won't be much so feel free to use either beam or blade portion for damage.

Alright, regarding as to why buster and smash should use the beam portion. Shulk's default mobility isn't really that good. Neither buster nor smash improve his mobility. To add to that, he takes more damage with buster and he's easy to knock around with smash. Now you're probably gonna bring up jump but with jump, you're able to get away so easily with your jump height. I think it was clearly obvious that the best way to play buster and smash is defensively. Actually, one common problem that's relevant in most Shulk matches is that most Shulks (I'll probably be like this anyway lol) tend to be too aggressive and they try to rush for the KO and that's just unsafe....

 

[x-Ace-x]

No matter what, spacing with the tipper portion is the safe way on how to deal with opponents. Here's the thing, I'm thinking that stances that do not enhance Shulk's mobility are better off spacing with the beam while stances with mobility enhancements can use the blade or beam if they want since it's easy to get away from opponents and to just avoid taking damage unlike while being in buster or smash. Shield well.... It's a similar case to speed and jump but why? Mostly because you're too immobile. You're better off just letting them come at you or you come at them. It really doesn't matter. The punishment you'll take won't be much so feel free to use either beam or blade portion for damage.

Alright, regarding as to why buster and smash should use the beam portion. Shulk's default mobility isn't really that good. Neither buster nor smash improve his mobility. To add to that, he takes more damage with buster and he's easy to knock around with smash. Now you're probably gonna bring up jump but with jump, you're able to get away so easily with your jump height. I think it was clearly obvious that the best way to play buster and smash is defensively. Actually, one common problem that's relevant in most Shulk matches is that most Shulks (I'll probably be like this anyway lol) tend to be too aggressive and they try to rush for the KO and that's just unsafe....

Yeah, Shulk requires discipline.
As I see it, Shulk is indeed quite a defensive character. Especially against fast opponent.
But you can't be too campy either because of the Monado Art time limitations, so you need the right amount of agression.

I think grabbing/throw/dash grabs will be key in maining Shulk. More so with the smash art because it's very risky.
I have seen tons of videos of people getting killed after switching to this art.

 

[Berserker.]

Yeah, Shulk requires discipline.
As I see it, Shulk is indeed quite a defensive character. Especially against fast opponent.
But you can't be too campy either because of the Monado Art time limitations, so you need the right amount of agression.

I think grabbing/throw/dash grabs will be key in maining Shulk. More so with the smash art because it's very risky.
I have seen tons of videos of people getting killed after switching to this art.

With Monado speed or jump, you can go nuts with his n-air, f-air,b-air and grab mix ups. This is the only time you can actually play aggressively with Shulk mainly because of how fast the arts make you in air (or ground for speed). Combine that with your range, you're good to go to rush down your opponent regardless if your damage output is reduced or not.

I do agree that grabs and throws will be one of the keys on playing well as Shulk. They mesh well with any of Shulk's Monado arts


UPDATE

- I changed the description about Smash art. It does NOT increase damage taken

 

[Scourge The Hedgehog]

All this information has been great to read. I'm still curious to know if Back Slash is a viable kill move with/without Smash Monado Art. Also I'm not sure if it was covered but is Air Back Slash useful as a recovery tool? Does it put you in special fall state? Sorry if these questions were answered already. I've read as much as I could via my android.

 

[x-Ace-x]

All this information has been great to read. I'm still curious to know if Back Slash is a viable kill move with/without Smash Monado Art. Also I'm not sure if it was covered but is Air Back Slash useful as a recovery tool? Does it put you in special fall state? Sorry if these questions were answered already. I've read as much as I could via my android.

I don't think back slash is a good recovery move, from what I've seen, as you can't grab the ledge and it doesn't cover much horizontal ground...
Up+B is the best one really.

 

[Masonomace]

No matter what, spacing with the tipper portion is the safe way on how to deal with opponents. Here's the thing, I'm thinking that stances that do not enhance Shulk's mobility are better off spacing with the beam while stances with mobility enhancements can use the blade or beam if they want since it's easy to get away from opponents and to just avoid taking damage unlike while being in buster or smash. Shield well.... It's a similar case to speed and jump but why? Mostly because you're too immobile. You're better off just letting them come at you or you come at them. It really doesn't matter. The punishment you'll take won't be much so feel free to use either beam or blade portion for damage.

Alright, regarding as to why buster and smash should use the beam portion. Shulk's default mobility isn't really that good. Neither buster nor smash improve his mobility. To add to that, he takes more damage with buster and he's easy to knock around with smash. Now you're probably gonna bring up jump but with jump, you're able to get away so easily with your jump height. I think it was clearly obvious that the best way to play buster and smash is defensively. Actually, one common problem that's relevant in most Shulk matches is that most Shulks (I'll probably be like this anyway lol) tend to be too aggressive and they try to rush for the KO and that's just unsafe....

It's a fair point, damage is damage. I get you, but now we, for now you, have to be specific with Shulk's Monado portions when you say "tipper portion". Because apparently now with all the analyzing & reviewing of videos done so far, Shulk's hit-boxes predominantly if not some of his A & B moves, can have 4 different hit-box outcomes. Beam & Blade are Shulk's means of dealt damage we know of, but the outcomes differ of dealt damage & KB when connecting airborne or grounded. The closer hit will be stronger dealt % & knock-back while the farther hits will be weaker dealt % & KB. It comes down to several trade-offs that we would prefer really, & what opportunities we'll make ours. The majority who use Buster as their Art will most likely choose to use Beam's portion when focusing on Neutral game. After the certain amount of dealt % racked up, decisions made may or may not change to utilize the stronger portions of damage, albeit I feel everyone should use the Blade portion when using Buster mode, AFTER the grabs, pummels, & throws. The KB decease requires adjusting to, proper spacing with the portions is what's detrimental & will be what makes or breaks Buster Shulk. Probably break since you're busting it.

Arts that have no effect on Shulk's basic movement or his advanced movement would basically be safe using the Beam portion(s), but that's not entirely true, as it depends on the particular move Shulk uses that may have multiple hit-box outcomes while using a particular Art. Buster & Smash not altering Shulk's entire movement will still be affected by the different hit-boxes, as some can be aerial hits that would deal even less % & KB plus Buster's already weakened KB. Smash needs % damage due to the 50% damage output he loses, so using the Blade portion for both Arts on-paper is excellent. Albeit this implying the Shulk user can space well with the Blade portion.

Right now it's practically impossible to be spacing to the magnitude I'm going on about in general because the 3DS has no C-stick for a compound input of DI'ing movement left or right airborne, while flicking the imaginary C-stick left or right . So what I'm saying that should be implemented in everyone's game-play for Shulk if not every character isn't possible right now making the point moot.

Also using Smash mode early isn't such a s bad tactic. Smash's decreased resistance to launching / KB & lightened weight makes Shulk harder to be juggled & combo'd. Plus we all know how much shenanigans Smash could execute at early % whether it's off-stage edge-guarding, or with Vision.

Then again, seems like most of this matters very little, since Shulk's Nair is hotness. It's used very often & it's barely affected by the diverse hit-boxes Shulk possesses. So half of my point gets thrown out the busted window.

Yeah, Shulk requires discipline.
As I see it, Shulk is indeed quite a defensive character. Especially against fast opponent.
But you can't be too campy either because of the Monado Art time limitations, so you need the right amount of agression.

I think grabbing/throw/dash grabs will be key in maining Shulk. More so with the smash art because it's very risky.
I have seen tons of videos of people getting killed after switching to this art.

Indeed. Shulk's grab-game will be what makes or breaks Shulk entirely it seems like. Doubles Shulk however won't even need to try playing defensive because he's automatically going to be. Shulk primarily within hands of the players generally are playing him defensively, but his Jump Speed & Smash Arts can make Shulk play very aggressively almost borderline rush-down-like, but Shulk isn't a rush-down fighter so it gets interesting, & I've seen it a few times but I'd like to see / play more of it.

All this information has been great to read. I'm still curious to know if Back Slash is a viable kill move with/without Smash Monado Art. Also I'm not sure if it was covered but is Air Back Slash useful as a recovery tool? Does it put you in special fall state? Sorry if these questions were answered already. I've read as much as I could via my android.

Thanks for Reading~
Back Slash having multiple outcomes of a certain hit-box, & if we include Back Slash's custom moves JBS & EBS, he'll have fairly decent KO power around the 120% marker, but the back-facing hit-box is what will be preferred obviously. Used for hard read RAR approaches or RAR Bair walls will further the viability of Back Slash. Players who roll on-to the stage from the ledge can be a read with a turn-around BS & lead to a stage-wide launch that sets you up for a edge-guard with Speed / Jump on the go. With the Smash Art, you definitely get KO power no questions asked frontward facing or not.

Aerial Back Slashes? I thought you meant the Jumping Back Slash at first, & if you are, then sorry m8 it's not that effective at all. The main issue with Back Slash including JBS is that you can't snap-ledge with the dashed animation. Now if you were to mean the Back Slash used airborne, then you have to be almost near the ledge horizontally calculated & being way high up vertically in order to fall to the ground faster.

I do wanna note that the EBS custom move is highly impressive of horizontal distance & can be a viable recovery move. It sacrifices some dealt % & KB, but the horizontal distance is exceptional & has a extra distance of slide at it's ending.

 

[Berserker.]

It's a fair point, damage is damage. I get you, but now we, for now you, have to be specific with Shulk's Monado portions when you say "tipper portion". Because apparently now with all the analyzing & reviewing of videos done so far, Shulk's hit-boxes predominantly if not some of his A & B moves, can have 4 different hit-box outcomes. Beam & Blade are Shulk's means of dealt damage we know of, but the outcomes differ of dealt damage & KB when connecting airborne or grounded. The closer hit will be stronger dealt % & knock-back while the farther hits will be weaker dealt % & KB. It comes down to several trade-offs that we would prefer really, & what opportunities we'll make ours. The majority who use Buster as their Art will most likely choose to use Beam's portion when focusing on Neutral game. After the certain amount of dealt % racked up, decisions made may or may not change to utilize the stronger portions of damage, albeit I feel everyone should use the Blade portion when using Buster mode, AFTER the grabs, pummels, & throws. The KB decease requires adjusting to, proper spacing with the portions is what's detrimental & will be what makes or breaks Buster Shulk. Probably break since you're busting it.

Well you get the point

Arts that have no effect on Shulk's basic movement or his advanced movement would basically be safe using the Beam portion(s), but that's not entirely true, as it depends on the particular move Shulk uses that may have multiple hit-box outcomes while using a particular Art. Buster & Smash not altering Shulk's entire movement will still be affected by the different hit-boxes, as some can be aerial hits that would deal even less % & KB plus Buster's already weakened KB. Smash needs % damage due to the 50% damage output he loses, so using the Blade portion for both Arts on-paper is excellent. Albeit this implying the Shulk user can space well with the Blade portion.

I really need to read up on these particular moves... @_@

Anyway, regarding maximizing damage vs maximizing range with buster or smash....

Despite the less damage, it will probably still deal good amount of damage (Talking about buster here). That's pretty much what matters. Getting close and attempting to land Shulk's "more damaging portions" (Dammit, not used to it) is pretty unsafe and you're a lot more susceptible to punishment since you're a lot closer to your opponent and it doesn't help that you receive more damage.... Wait, I rechecked that inaccurate damage chart. Alright, it might suck to not deal additional damage. Well, if you want to maximize your damage.... I'll assume that you're close to your opponent. Here are some safe close-ranged options

1) While up close, grabbing is your best friend
2) F-tilt or d-tilt is fast and ranged, plus they deal high amount of damage and good knockback
3) If you're given the opportunity to punish, use Shulk's f-smash
4) Shulk's first Jab is one of Shulk's best moves. It's fast and it deals good damage. Use it up close
5) SH-nair to anything works well (I meant, taking advantage of n-air's non existent lag by using another move once you land with n-air)
6) Punish rolls with d-smash

Smash doesn't need to damage. It's made to KO or edgeguard and regardless if you land a hit with either the *cough* "stronger potions" or "weaker portions".

Then again, I need to know what these "particular moves" are because I'm confused

Right now it's practically impossible to be spacing to the magnitude I'm going on about in general because the 3DS has no C-stick for a compound input of DI'ing movement left or right airborne, while flicking the imaginary C-stick left or right . So what I'm saying that should be implemented in everyone's game-play for Shulk if not every character isn't possible right now making the point moot.

Yeah. It's really difficult to space in the 3DS version

Won't be a problem for me once I get the New 3DS. I hope

Also using Smash mode early isn't such a s bad tactic. Smash's decreased resistance to launching / KB & lightened weight makes Shulk harder to be juggled & combo'd. Plus we all know how much shenanigans Smash could execute at early % whether it's off-stage edge-guarding, or with Vision.

The damage decrease is really big though. That 50% damage decrease really hurts Shulk's damage output. It also doesn't help that Shulk's still pretty slow in terms of mobility. I think it's only good at low%'s if you're planning to have some sort of cheap KO with vision counter but I'd rather not risk it

Especially against (insert heavy hitter character here)

EDIT: There were some changes in my post. Oh and this vvvvv

Feel free to add or disagree with

JUMPING WITH SHULK- Ways on how to be crafty with jump

Jump Shulk was initially one of the arts that didn't seem all that useful to other players. Jump basically increases Shulk's air mobility, falling speed (?) and mostly his jump height. On the down side, it increases damage taken by 22%. It's also stated that it reduces your weight but the exact value is unknown. Its uses seemed situational like Shield (Which, until then, is only used for stock tanking). However, lately, Jump actually had a lot of uses. But let's discuss one of its main functions and the first most Shulk players were thinking about. Starting of with some of its basic uses then we get crafty with its other uses

Monado jump helps Shulk in recovering back to the stage. The increase for Shulk's jump height is very helpful for this to the point that sometimes, you might not even need to use your recovery. Additionally, Monado jump increases Shulk's recovery height so overall, recovering with Shulk is much easier with Jump activated.

Another basic use for it is to escape ledge traps. Basically, you just use your jump height to escape these set ups. Make sure to carefully use your second jump while your escaping. Shulk doesn't have a lot of solid downward hitting attacks.

Lastly and definitely not the least, edgeguarding. Because of your jump height, it's safe to edgeguard most of the time because your recovery options are incredible with jump activated. You can use f-air, d-air, b-air and n-air to edgeguard thanks to their range and it also helps that your damage and knockback are not reduced when using jump.

Now that its basic uses were covered, let's go ahead to how you can be crafty with it

Covering space with Monado jump is incredibly helpful with Shulk. You can jump around and abuse your long ranged aerials while fast falling for as long as you land with n-air to avoid any landing lag. Additionally, you can even mix this up with grabbing. Fast falling with n-air or just fast falling period then grabbing the opponent then throwing them and pulling off a combo... Jump Shulk has a LOT of options when it comes to overwhelming his opponent. You, basically, can literally go anywhere with Jump Shulk. Going off stage and jumping back on stage. You can go anywhere with this art

It hasn't been brought up though since Smash Shulk was seen as the best "gimp" stance but Jump can also be used to gimp given which actually all stems back to how jump Shulk is actually great for edgeguarding. It's also the safest to gimp with since Shulk can easily recover back on stage. Yeah, this part wasn't saying much but it's also pretty important to take note of :|

Lastly, you can actually perform combos with Jump Shulk and this actually meshes well with edgeguarding and gimping with Jump Shulk. The method of doing it is fairly similar to Speed Shulk except you jump to the opponent instead of running to him. Not sure on what type of combos can you perform with Jump Shulk but there's a lot of potential I can see here. This needs to be further explored though but I'm 99.99% sure on this that you can actually perform

For a better reference than reading some wall of text, here are some videos that will probably convince you that what I'm typing isn't bull. Lol. In fact, these videos are actually the reason I made this write-up about Jump Shulk. Credit to @Trela

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCY92iqRuck
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhTMY_PdeE0


After we talk about Monado jump, we should go back to talking about Smash art. That art needs some love.....

I'm planning to put an additional note regarding "which arts to start with against certain characters"

Edit

Once we get the game at release, we'll probably see a ton of overhauls at the 3rd post or not. Whatever.

Decisive monado arts.. This may seem underwhelming especially for one on ones but this is actually more potent than most people think. I know Mace already made a post about this but he was talking about doubles so this one will talk about singles. The difference between D-arts and Normal arts is that D-arts lasts 20 seconds (around 3 seconds longer than normal arts). The main gripe with D-arts is that you can't switch your art while using one currently so you have to be decisive and actually sure when switching to an art, thus the name "Decisive arts"

This is probably discouraging especially for Smash since, assuming you KO the opponent, there's a good chance you're still in Smash stance and you can't voluntarily switch out. Depending on your %, that's fatal HOWEVER, if your percentage is high enough such that it's 150%+, you'll be buffed with the rage effect which caps at 15%. It's not much but it gives an additional slight incentive for you to scare with vision counter. As always, you have to space with Smash and play safe especially if you're in a high percentage

For jump, this is very beneficial. Sure, you'll take more damage and lose weight but your air mobility really gives you a lot of options for rushing down and going around the stage. Additionally, this means that recovering won't be a problem at all for the next 20 seconds. Basically, it's every Jump art tactic usage for 20 seconds.

Same can be said for speed. Like jump, you're extremely mobile on the ground plus it's easier to go against projectile spam. The kicker here is the damage reduction but regardless, the amount of mind games and offensive tactics you can do with speed compensates for the damage reduction.

Buster art seems to be double edge'd here. You're basically gonna play safe for 20 seconds while hopefully racking up enough damage and not take a lot of damage for the duration. Nothing much to say here

Shield is gonna be a *****. Lasts for 20 seconds which means you have more time to kill with shield and more time to piss off your opponent by not getting killed. The main problem here is that you have to NOT get knocked off stage. That is important because if you're too far, you can't switch out then you inevitably get killed unless you land a vision counter in mid-air which boosts you forward.

You're always using one Monado Art for a long time without being able to switch out. Although it's reduces the versatility of the special, it allows you to play around more with jump, shield, buster, smash and speed as individual arts which may actually be helpful in a lot of scenarios. Like, if you need to stay longer with speed or jump Shulk against a certain character, this custom special works.

............... Yeah. That's my 1 cent about this custom special BUT **** THAT ****. I'M STICKING WITH DEFAULT MONADO ARTS (Invalidates everything above). I'll only use it when I'm feeling like it's needed

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

With all these buffs of his, would Shulk be like, the best in all terms of matchups? :V

 

[Hokori]

With all these buffs of his, would Shulk be like, the best in all terms of matchups? :V

He doesn't just get free buffs. There are tradeoffs in place

 

[Masonomace]

With all these buffs of his, would Shulk be like, the best in all terms of matchups? :V

The irony is that all of his Arts have trade-offs outweighing the boosts he gets. So the Arts are definitely balanced in that regard.

 

[Berserker.]

With all these buffs of his, would Shulk be like, the best in all terms of matchups? :V

It's not all buffs

The trade offs are more glaring than you think. Haha.

But it's balanced anyway

 

[Neo Zero]

Technically the point is to use each "Buff" correctly so that the "Debuff" isn't an issue. Of course we're only human so that's not really humanly possible to have the debuffs be non issue 100% of the time, no matter how good you are. Doesn't help we have long cooldowns to contend with too

 

[T-skjorte Ninja]

The trade-off doesn't really feel like issues to me, though. :V

 

[Masonomace]

After we talk about Monado jump, we should go back to talking about Smash art. That art needs some love.....
I'm planning to put an additional note regarding "which arts to start with against certain characters"

Edit

Once we get the game at release, we'll probably see a ton of overhauls at the 3rd post or not. Whatever.

Decisive monado arts.. This may seem underwhelming especially for one on ones but this is actually more potent than most people think. I know Mace already made a post about this but he was talking about doubles so this one will talk about singles. The difference between D-arts and Normal arts is that D-arts lasts 20 seconds (around 3 seconds longer than normal arts). The main gripe with D-arts is that you can't switch your art while using one currently so you have to be decisive and actually sure when switching to an art, thus the name "Decisive arts"

This is probably discouraging especially for Smash since, assuming you KO the opponent, there's a good chance you're still in Smash stance and you can't voluntarily switch out. Depending on your %, that's fatal HOWEVER, if your percentage is high enough such that it's 150%+, you'll be buffed with the rage effect which caps at 15%. It's not much but it gives an additional slight incentive for you to scare with vision counter. As always, you have to space with Smash and play safe especially if you're in a high percentage

For jump, this is very beneficial. Sure, you'll take more damage and lose weight but your air mobility really gives you a lot of options for rushing down and going around the stage. Additionally, this means that recovering won't be a problem at all for the next 20 seconds. Basically, it's every Jump art tactic usage for 20 seconds.

Same can be said for speed. Like jump, you're extremely mobile on the ground plus it's easier to go against projectile spam. The kicker here is the damage reduction but regardless, the amount of mind games and offensive tactics you can do with speed compensates for the damage reduction.

Buster art seems to be double edge'd here. You're basically gonna play safe for 20 seconds while hopefully racking up enough damage and not take a lot of damage for the duration. Nothing much to say here

Shield is gonna be a *****. Lasts for 20 seconds which means you have more time to kill with shield and more time to piss off your opponent by not getting killed. The main problem here is that you have to NOT get knocked off stage. That is important because if you're too far, you can't switch out then you inevitably get killed unless you land a vision counter in mid-air which boosts you forward.

You're always using one Monado Art for a long time without being able to switch out. Although it's reduces the versatility of the special, it allows you to play around more with jump, shield, buster, smash and speed as individual arts which may actually be helpful in a lot of scenarios. Like, if you need to stay longer with speed or jump Shulk against a certain character, this custom special works.

............... Yeah. That's my 1 cent about this custom special BUT **** THAT ****. I'M STICKING WITH DEFAULT MONADO ARTS (Invalidates everything above). I'll only use it when I'm feeling like it's needed

Your 1 cent of input is gracious. Why didn't you put in another cent? I want dollars of metagame put in here.

Although we already talked about Smash, it's great for countering early game combo strings against us.

And about your input on DArts:
I agree. Adding 4 extra seconds of longevity to the duration is actually a huge bonus, almost an overwhelming aspect that some may not think is when comparing to EMArts that are more underwhelming lasting for 6 seconds; going from MArts being 16/17 seconds down to EMArt's 6 seconds is such a reduction of time. DMArts removing the ability of switching off them inclines to commit to a mobility Art(s) like Jump Speed or Shield, rather than Buster or Smash. Thinking about Vision when DMASm is active is a nifty option to intimidate the opponent making them aware of your Rage boosted Art's KB even stronger. DMAJ is especially great because a SH+Aerial can be so safe we can forward our DI input & DI backward after the attack's pressed to make our landings incredibly safe being a bait-worthy tactic to make the opponent approach assuming it won't be a safe landing; DMAJ for 20 seconds is basically perfect aerial spacing for 20 seconds. DMASp can be so effective on the ground we have no need to approach until we see the foe make a move & we judge it's safety or not punishing accordingly. Running then Sidestepping, Pivot grabbing, or Rolling forward / backward may carry over the faster movement to our basic movement input, even more ground-game tactics. DMAB can be used immediately at the start of a match's countdown playing footsies with spaced aerials to landing Jabs or dash+grab, it only hurts to put on DMAB if you lose Neutral Game & continue to lose stage control to your foe. Then that means your stuck going through that MU moment without a mobility boost to give you any edge. DMASh is the ultimate ground-based DMArt when you know how to handle the match, stalling your stock longevity & setting yourself up for DMASm with that high % with the Rage Effect built on top of your situation.

Depending how quick a match is going in Shulk's favor, he'd start with DMAB, set up for DMASm if the damage you dealt in the past 20 seconds is a % higher than 80.
Starting with any Art regardless of the outcome, DMAJ, DMASh, & DMASm are your end-game DMArts to utilize on your high % stock. DMAB & DMASp are likely the generic DMArts to go with at 0%.

I gtg so I may discuss more when I get back.

 

[Berserker.]

Someone must try this out with a multi-hitting aerial (Shulk's u-air and d-air). Not sure if it works....

The spike always works as long as you are fast falling with the attack before hitting the opponent. These seem to be the rules of the technique.

1. You must be fast falling before hitting the opponent with the move.
2. In Smash 4 when you perform an aerial you are taken OUT of fast fall. As such you must fast fall AFTER performing the aerial.

Basically you must fast fall after performing the aerial but before hitting your opponent which means that you must time the attack so that it comes out right before your opponent "falls into" the hitbox so that you have enough time to input the fast fall.

If you don't time it correctly you will either not hit your opponent or not be able to fast fall the attack.





What I was talking about specifically is getting an assured combo on stage. If you spike someone onstage they will either:

1-) Stick to the ground while crouching in a small amount of hit lag.
2-) Bounce upwards (This can be teched)

You can use this technique to get 100% assured combos as long as the opponent:

1-) Doesn't tech
2-) Doesn't bounce too high (this is dependent on his weight and what % he is at)

So the weight and damage someone has will decide how high he bounces which in term will decide whether you can hit him or not. If your opponent always likes to tech the bounce you could mix it up to a tech chase and try and get something out of it either way.

Anyway.....

Your 1 cent of input is gracious. Why didn't you put in another cent? I want dollars of metagame put in here.

My 2nd cent was at the last part of the input

And about your input on DArts:
I agree. Adding 4 extra seconds of longevity to the duration is actually a huge bonus, almost an overwhelming aspect that some may not think is when comparing to EMArts that are more underwhelming lasting for 6 seconds; going from MArts being 16/17 seconds down to EMArt's 6 seconds is such a reduction of time. DMArts removing the ability of switching off them inclines to commit to a mobility Art(s) like Jump Speed or Shield, rather than Buster or Smash. Thinking about Vision when DMASm is active is a nifty option to intimidate the opponent making them aware of your Rage boosted Art's KB even stronger. DMAJ is especially great because a SH+Aerial can be so safe we can forward our DI input & DI backward after the attack's pressed to make our landings incredibly safe being a bait-worthy tactic to make the opponent approach assuming it won't be a safe landing; DMAJ for 20 seconds is basically perfect aerial spacing for 20 seconds. DMASp can be so effective on the ground we have no need to approach until we see the foe make a move & we judge it's safety or not punishing accordingly. Running then Sidestepping, Pivot grabbing, or Rolling forward / backward may carry over the faster movement to our basic movement input, even more ground-game tactics. DMAB can be used immediately at the start of a match's countdown playing footsies with spaced aerials to landing Jabs or dash+grab, it only hurts to put on DMAB if you lose Neutral Game & continue to lose stage control to your foe. Then that means your stuck going through that MU moment without a mobility boost to give you any edge. DMASh is the ultimate ground-based DMArt when you know how to handle the match, stalling your stock longevity & setting yourself up for DMASm with that high % with the Rage Effect built on top of your situation.

Depending how quick a match is going in Shulk's favor, he'd start with DMAB, set up for DMASm if the damage you dealt in the past 20 seconds is a % higher than 80.
Starting with any Art regardless of the outcome, DMAJ, DMASh, & DMASm are your end-game DMArts to utilize on your high % stock. DMAB & DMASp are likely the generic DMArts to go with at 0%.

I gtg so I may discuss more when I get back.

Your input yet again is appreciated

Aaaaand, now I wait for the game to be released

 

[Neo Zero]

I actually did, with a ton of characters. As far as I can tell Shulk can't. Granted maybe he can, but the conditions needed to ONLY hit the first hit of Uair/Dair are so tight you'll never do it anyway.

 

[Jellyfishn]

Someone must try this out with a multi-hitting aerial (Shulk's u-air and d-air). Not sure if it works....

Pretty sure it needs to be a move that hits more than just twice. Haven't had any success with it with Shulk.

In other news my new favorite thing to do is a reverse Air slash from the ledge to KO opponents coming back to the stage. It is hilarious how much it actually works.

 

[Neo Zero]

Actually no. For example Mii Brawlers Fair works and its a two hitting move. Like I said, it MAY be possible but considering how fast the two hits are, you'll basically never get it to work.

 

[Berserker.]

In other news my new favorite thing to do is a reverse Air slash from the ledge to KO opponents coming back to the stage. It is hilarious how much it actually works.

I'm guessing that range really makes it deadly. To be honest, no one emphasized how ridiculously long ranged his recovery is. It's insane

Edit: Oh right. It's base knockback isn't bad at all

Actually no. For example Mii Brawlers Fair works and its a two hitting move. Like I said, it MAY be possible but considering how fast the two hits are, you'll basically never get it to work.

I guess that explanation works

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Observations on Monado Buster:

If you use Monado Buster against opponents with 0% the most damaging combo that works consistently is nair -> jab combo. It does up to 24% which is pretty good. I don't know if nair -> ftilt / dtilt works but even if it did I'd say jab is better. The combo also works for a while. In training mode where move decay is not a thing, I could do it twice in a row against Diddy to get it to 24% with the first combo and then to 45% with the second. From what I've seen nair is the only move that opens up realistic combo openings at 0%.

Throws openly start to open up combos at mid % with buster. I can do uthrow -> utilt Diddy from about 50% onwards. After the utilt I can do another follow-up but it'll depend on the opponent's DI and VI. The most damaging string I could do was uthrow -> utilt -> utilt -> airslash which does about 40%. I really, really doubt this wis actually a thing that works against human players. After the utilt you'll likely have to read / guess what your opponent is doing and since you're in a highly favorable position you have a high chance of getting a follow-up with nair or something. It's pretty nice damage and it works for a while - you can initiate
uthrow -> utilt at 80% easily. Against a heavy or fast-falling character [Diddy is average in terms of weight and falling seed] you can probably do uthrow -> utilt at pretty high percent as long as Monado Buster is active.

In other news my new favorite thing to do is a reverse Air slash from the ledge to KO opponents coming back to the stage. It is hilarious how much it actually works.

It works and it makes Shulk's edgeguarding more OP than it already is. Opponents recovering high get caught by airslash, opponents recovering low get caught by nair and opponents recovering somewhere in between get caught by fair. Shulk's edgeguarding is godlike!

 

[Berserker.]

Neutral special : Monado arts
Forward special : Jumping back slash
Upward special : Forward air slash
Downward special : Vision

That's if custom specials are not banned. How about you guys? Personally, I think buster and smash actually benefit from both jumping back slash and forward air slash

 

[Chauzu]

Can't wait to finally see a good Shulk player. The potential is obvious but I've yet to see anyone coming close to tapping it.