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Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

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Alright, I went back to that Jump art (N-air -> F-air -> Air slash) combo. I only did it on Bowser and DK because I'm tired atm. Haha

Fast falling during f-air will determine if you can extend the combo into air slash

Bowser (62-82%)
Donkey Kong (60-86%)

Yeah. That's all for now

You can link buster FF n-air (base hit) into buster f-tilt for 25-28% damage. Since jab doesn't connect on ALL characters, this might be a thing. Note that rage is not in effect with all the numbers

Mario (49-87%)
Luigi (48-82%)
Peach (44-68%)
Bowser (58-112%)
Yoshi (49-88%)
Rosalina (42-62%)
Bowser Jr (48-103%)
Wario (49-110%)
Game and Watch (40-73%)
Donkey Kong (56-109%)
Diddy Kong (47-83%)
Link (52-90%)
Zelda (44-73%)
Sheik (40-94%)

Anyone want to continue?
 
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Masonomace

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A tiny tiny tiny detail I'm curious of is v1.0.4 F-air's landing lag. It's obviously not 21 frames anymore, & I could figure out whether it's shorter or longer than N-air or U-air's landing lag if I test in 1/4x speed buffering two Shulks to compare F-air's landing lag to another Shulk who does U-air first, then N-air second to get a good guesstimate of the number. U-air is 17, while N-air is 12, so yeah.
I return with news. I did side-by-side comparison of both U-air & F-air done on 1/4x speed, and after doing it multiple times, I can confidently say that F-air's landing lag is very close to U-air, & that I'm fairly positive F-air's landing lag is 18.
 
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kenniky

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Apparently, Shulk's utilt will hit Bowser, Rosalina, Ganondorf, and Samus if they're standing directly behind him... interesting
 

Opana

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So what do you all use Back slash for?

I usually use it to get back onstage from the ledge due to its deceptive range, and rarely jump off and use it at the stage asn a flashy kill lol.
 

Opana

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Did some testing, You know how art activation stopped dashes? I found out it produces a slide as it activates and stops the dash.

I think that speed either has a smaller one or it's just harder, and Shield has a bigger one of it's just easier. I'm thinking maybe it'll be useful for scoring more hits off a buster dsmash?
 

ArchmageMC

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What matchup gives you guys the most trouble? I don't feel like I have any troubles in my matchups, unless I'm vsing a little mac where there is significant input lag in For Glory, which everyone has troubles with.
 
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I return with news. I did side-by-side comparison of both U-air & F-air done on 1/4x speed, and after doing it multiple times, I can confidently say that F-air's landing lag is very close to U-air, & that I'm fairly positive F-air's landing lag is 18.
I'd like exact numbers. At least we know f-air's landing lag is ~18 but not exactly there

Buster FF n-air (base hit) into buster f-tilt for 25-28% damage

Mario (49-103%)
Dr. Mario (49-103%)
Luigi (48-99%)
Peach (44-70%)
Bowser (58-119%)
Yoshi (49-104%)
Rosalina (42-75%)
Bowser Jr (48-103%)
Wario (49-110%)
Game and Watch (40-73%)
Donkey Kong (56-109%)
Diddy Kong (47-83%)
Link (52-90%)
Zelda (44-73%)
Sheik (40-94%)

Ganondorf (55-101%)
Toon Link (43-81%)
Samus (56-74%)
Zero Suit Samus (44-87%)
Pit (49-87%)
Dark Pit (49-87%)
Palutena (48-83%)
Marth (47-90%)
Lucina (47-90%)
Robin (46-96%)
Ike (50-102%)
Kirby (45-65%)
Dedede (60-106%)
Meta Knight (39-89%)
Little Mac (45-76%)
Fox (39-98%)
Falco (40-95%)
Pikachu (39-83%)
Charizard (52-97%)
Lucario (50-93%)
Jigglypuff (37-56%)
Greninja (43-90%)
Duck Hunt (42-93%)
ROB (52-95%)
Ness (47-81%)
Captain Falcon (46-105%) ~ IDK how I was able to force it to 46%. It's all about FF'ing on the frame where n-air comes out
Villager (48-82%)
Olimar (42-80%)
WFT (47-90%)
Shulk (51-92%)
Pacman (48-88%)
Mega Man (48-103%) ~ Refer to the note on Captain Falcon
Sonic (48-90%)

Buster n-air to buster f-smash. Note that you can also combo n-air into f-smash in vanilla. I'll get on that atm
 
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TheHopefulHero

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@ Berserker. Berserker.

Saw your post about the Jump N-Air -> F-Air -> Air Slash combo and wanted to help out. I don't have the results completely ready, but I thought I should share what I have at the moment.

Jump: N-Air -> F-Air -> Air-Slash (Deals around 24% - 26%)

- Knock someone off-stage with this, and you can potentially score a kill. But you’re probably not going to get back on stage unless Shulk is very high above the stage… (I’m talking Magnifying-Glass Zone Boundary.)

Mario: 52% - 75%
Luigi: 52% - 58% - Luigi just loves to drop out of combos huh?
Peach: 45% - 70%
Bowser: 62% - 82%
Yoshi: 55% - 80%
Rosalina: 50%- 65%
Bowser Jr.:58% - 85% - You’re going to have to wait a while and be precise, but it’ll be worth it.
Wario: 50% - 70% - Wario sometimes falls out of this combo at 55%…
Mr. Game & Watch: 45% - 65%
DK: 60% - 86%
Diddy: 50% - 60% -Hm… Diddy gets away scott-free with this one.
Link: 55% - 80% - You definitely want to be as close as possible with this one.

I'll post more information as soon as possible. I just want to let you know that I want to help out again.
 
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You can help me. Combo vanilla n-air to f-smash AND also vanilla n-air to f-tilt. I'll give you a small head start by doing it with Mario

N-air -> F-tilt
Mario (2-27%)

N-air -> F-smash
Mario (8-37%)

I'll handle buster n-air to buster f-smash. Oh and thanks
 
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Masonomace

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There's a ledge-setup that can lead to a combo that I've been doing without paying too much attention to it, but it's happened for a little while, involving Jump mode:
  1. Ledge-dropping away or down
  2. Drifted DoubleJump towards them
  3. F-air
  4. Air Slash
This has happened to me on multiple occasions offline & online, and I'm curious about it to the point I'd like to take that combo project head-on. This can also work with Vanilla but you need more precision, since you can suffer from F-air's landing lag if you're not buffering the inputs. And F-air apparently has IASA frames because you're able to input a Special move out of the landing lag.

EDIT: If in case this works with Buster & Smash, I'll be doing some of that too.
I'd like exact numbers. At least we know f-air's landing lag is ~18 but not exactly there
True. Unfortunately I don't have a capture card & other said equipment to pinpoint the exact frame F-air's landing lag finishes, but the best I could do was tapping the L button as lightly & quickly as I could, & the difference between U-air & F-air was by one slight tap of the L button to see who put up their shield first. Doing this with U-air vs B-air side-by-side, I noticed B-air took 3 more taps of L until B-air's landing lag finished after U-air, which is still pretty close but not exact, hence B-air is 21 frames of landing lag. Bah.
 
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I'll handle trying to get the numbers for buster n-air to buster f-smash tomorrow. That 35% damage is something that anyone cannot ignore. Same goes for buster n-air to buster f-tilt. 28% damage is no joke especially since f-tilt is a one-hit attack unlike jab combo which whiffs on floaty characters like Rosalina and Jigglypuff.

Can anyone test this on the Wii U version?
 

Virum

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I've been finding lately at early percentages against certain characters with those low percent strings such as Mario, Luigi and Fox that it has been the most beneficial to start in Shield as opposed to Speed/Jump/Vanilla as it allows you to just drop out of their standard low percent strings due to the typical combo starters not sending you any where and dealing pitifully low hitstun. Against Mario for instance at low percents his DThrow deals so little knockback and hitstun it actually becomes unsafe for him and you as Shield Shulk can punish him directly after with a grab.

In Shield I've found that the opponent will try to do one of two things. They will either try to camp it out (in which case you can literally just hold shield and slowly edge your way in as you take less shield damage) or they will try to overwhelm you with pressure (which is an awful idea against a character who takes less shield pushback and shield stun lol). The lower jump height also makes your ground level zoning even better imo, as you can land faster from your SH NAirs and FAirs. Shield early percent allows you to set up your defense, make the foe play at your pace and then shift to Speed or Jump and start going aggro. Of course Shield isn't an optimal starting Art against everyone, but there are definitely certain match-ups where I feel it's probably the best starting option.
 

Masonomace

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Updated the MArts table in the OP showcasing the Increased & Decreased Stats. I messed with Air Slash a lot & realized for myself that Air Slash's vertical height is only affected by Jump mode & respectively DJump & HJump. None of the other 4 MArts increase or decrease Air Slash's height or for that matter AAS & MAS's vertical height.

Fun trivial facts:
  • D-smash's 3 Front hits have different distances. In order from longest to shortest (Beam's max distance it reaches):
    3rd hit (Is actually the 5th hit of D-smash)
    1st hit
    2nd hit (Is actually the 3rd hit of D-smash)

  • D-smash's 2 Back hits have different distances. In order from longest to shortest:
    2nd hit (Is actually the 4th hit of D-smash)
    1st hit (Is actually the 2nd hit of D-smash)
 
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FF Buster N-air to Buster F-smash [Still not finished yet]

Mario (60-104%)
Luigi (59-96%)
Peach (58-79%)
Bowser (65-135%)
Yoshi (63-115%)
Rosalina (Lol nope)
Bowser Jr (58-130%) ~ Aim for the head shot for 41% damage!
Wario (58-120%)
Mr. Game and Watch (56-91%)
Donkey Kong (65-130%)
Diddy Kong (57-116%)
Link (63-99%)
....

Also, I managed to extend the maximum percentage for buster n-air to f-tilt for Mario, Luigi, Peach, Yoshi, Bowser and Rosalina. Turns out you need to move very slightly forward after the n-air before doing f-tilt. I'll work on the rest tomorrow.

Also, can anyone test these in the Wii U version if these work?
1) Buster n-air -> Buster f-tilt
2) Buster n-air -> Buster f-smash
3) Jump n-air -> Jump u-tilt -> Jump air slash
4) Jump n-air -> Jump f-air -> Jump air slash

I'll also try figuring out the unknown substates tomorrow
 
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Nammy12

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Also, can anyone test these in the Wii U version if these work?
1) Buster n-air -> Buster f-tilt
2) Buster n-air -> Buster f-smash
3) Jump n-air -> Jump u-tilt -> Jump air slash
4) Jump n-air -> Jump f-air -> Jump air slash

I'll also try figuring out the unknown substates tomorrow
I can confirm 1) and 2)
I'm having trouble with 3) and 4) but thats likely just me.

Edit:4) works.
Still testing 3). Is there a specific % they need to be at?
 
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I can confirm 1) and 2)
I'm having trouble with 3) and 4) but thats likely just me.

Edit:4) works.
Still testing 3). Is there a specific % they need to be at?
3) Yeah, there are specific percentages
Big update incoming. Got to testing everyone,except for Mii Fighter and Shulk equipped with a specific art, with the Jump and Buster Combos. Here's what I got, combined with the data from berserker01, organized via CCS.

Combo List (Normal Monado Arts):
Jump: FF N-air -> u-tilt-> Air-Slash (Deals around 25%)
Wario (16% - 26%) - A little difficult to combo with Air-Slash around 26%
Lol Diddy @ 17-26%(28-31) 32-39% ~27 whiffs for some reason
Link (16% -38%) - 2nd Air-Slash Hit starts missing around 25%.
Sheik @ 17-30%
Ganondorf @ 21-27(28-36)%
ZSS @ 13-34%
Ike (16% -37%) - 2nd Air Slash Hit starts missing around 30%
Robin @ 18-22(23-29)30-35%
King Dedede (18% -47%) - 2nd Air Slash Hit start missing around 30%. (Plenty of damage to work with here!)
Meta Knight (17% - 32%) - Meta Knight likes to dip downwards in this combo at 23%…
Little Mac (17% - 37%) - Really not air-fighter son.
Fox @ 13-34%
Falco @ 13-34%
ROB @ 13-29(30-42)%
Captain Falcon (22% - 46%) - 2nd Air Slash-Hit misses all-over the place, even at 22%. Falcon loves dipping out of this combo, even as early as 20%, which is still possible, but weird.
-To keep things simple, I’ve gotten this combo to constantly hit at 25% - 32%, every other percent, it’s either a hit or a miss… anything past 36% is where the 2nd Air-Slash hit tends to whiff.
- Technically, you can do this combo at 20%, but good luck get the 2nd Air-Slash to connect consistently.


Vanilla Shulk (20% -35%) - Shulk can be hit by his own combo… Something to think about for Shulk doubles. Also, 2nd Air-Slash Hit starts dropping as soon as 24%.
- I put Vanilla Shulk here because I don’t have the means of testing the other arts at the moment. I will try to post something soon, but I will put up what I have at the moment.

MegaMan (18-42%) - MegaMan tends to dip at 32%, which is also where the 2nd Air-Slash starts to miss. 18% can cause problems, but it’s possible.


Works but Strict Timing:
Marth (51%)
Robin (51%)
Sheik (51%)
Mario (52%)
- This is with (Jump Active) FF N-Air -> U-Tilt -> Air-Slash for reference

Works if Shulk knocks the opponent behind him with U-Tilt. (Possible DI-Exploit/Advantage?)
Link (50%)
- This is with (Jump Active) FF N-Air -> U-Tilt -> Air-Slash for reference



Buster: d-throw -> d-tilt (Deals around 19%)
Mario (21% - 33%)
Luigi ( 20 % -22% (?)) - No idea why that specific range only...
Bowser (Works from 16-28%)
Bowser Jr. (13% -19%)
Wario (13% -23%)
Donkey Kong (Works from 16-32%)
Diddy Kong (Works from 13-27%)
Sheik (Works from 12-22%)
ZSS (Works from 11-30%)
Pit (Works from 13-18%)
Palutena (13% -15%) - Again with specific ranges…
King Dedede (Works from 15-31%)
Fox (Works from 11-29%) \
Falco (Works from 11-26%) - These 3 are candidates for earliest chance to do this combo.
Pikachu (Works from 11-27%) /
Charizard (15%-24%) - 25% works, but it’s really inconsistent, so I kept it separated from the group.

Greninja (Works from 13-34%) - Really weird gravity works to our edge here.
ROB (Works from 14-32%)
Captain Falcon (Works from 14-22%)
Wii Fit Trainer (14%) - No you’re not seeing things. It only works at 14%…. So in light of this, I thought I should list something that can nail at least 24 -25% against her / him.
- (Jump Art active) FF N-Air -> F-Smash (20% - 40%) You need to let the slide carry you, but it can connect more consistently as opposed to the Buster combo here in this situation. It also works against a fair-majority of the cast, and you can use F-tilt as opposed to F-Smash at higher percents for about 20%.

Dr.Mario (21% - 33%) - Same as Mario (They really are the same person…)
Dark Pit (Works from 13-18%)
MegaMan (14% -20%) - Timing’s tight at 20%.

Lot of testing here, but I had a good time doing it. Will try to go back with Shulk and his other arts and see if there's any changes whenever I can
Edit: Those buster number are going under a massive overhaul.
 
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M-Z

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So what do you all use Back slash for?

I usually use it to get back onstage from the ledge due to its deceptive range, and rarely jump off and use it at the stage asn a flashy kill lol.
I just started testing it to try to punish projectile characters spamming me in short range. So far I only tried it against lucario because hes so popular and it works, when he starts shooting aura spheres up close shulk just jumps over them and I score an easy hit.
 

S.F.L.R_9

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Does anyone remember that odd Back Slash glitch where Shulk uses it very low to the ground and he doesn't do the little hop? I don't have a video showing it atm, but if we could find a way to replicate that I think BS (lol what an abbreviation) would be a lot more useful than it currently is.
 
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One thing to note: My execution was a factor here so my timing may have been off for some attempts

Buster FF n-air (base hit) into buster f-tilt for 25/28% damage

Mario (49-103%)
Dr. Mario (49-103%)
Luigi (48-99%)
Peach (44-70%)
Bowser (58-119%)
Yoshi (49-104%)
Rosalina (42-75%)
Bowser Jr (48-103%)
Wario (49-110%)
Game and Watch (40-73%)
Donkey Kong (56-109%)
Diddy Kong (47-83%)
Link (52-90%)
Zelda (44-73%)
Sheik (40-94%)
Ganondorf (55-101%)
Toon Link (43-81%)
Samus (56-74%)
Zero Suit Samus (44-87%)
Pit (49-87%)
Dark Pit (49-87%)
Palutena (48-83%)
Marth (47-90%)
Lucina (47-90%)
Robin (46-96%)
Ike (50-102%)
Kirby (45-65%)
Dedede (60-106%)
Meta Knight (39-89%)
Little Mac (45-76%)
Fox (39-98%)
Falco (40-95%)
Pikachu (39-83%)
Charizard (52-97%)
Lucario (50-93%)
Jigglypuff (37-56%)
Greninja (43-90%)
Duck Hunt (42-93%)
ROB (52-95%)
Ness (47-81%)
Captain Falcon (46-105%)
Villager (48-82%)
Olimar (42-80%)
WFT (47-90%)
Shulk (51-92%)
Pacman (48-88%)
Mega Man (48-103%)
Sonic (48-90%)

FF Buster N-air to Buster F-smash for 33/35% damage (Aim upward)

Mario (60-104%)
Dr. Mario (60-104%)
Luigi (59-96%)
Peach (58-79%)
Bowser (65-135%)
Yoshi (63-115%)
Rosalina (Impossible because reasons)
Bowser Jr (58-130%)
Wario (58-120%)
Mr. Game and Watch (56-91%)
Donkey Kong (65-130%)
Diddy Kong (57-116%)
Link (63-124%)
Zelda (56-98%)
Sheik (51-117%)
Ganondorf (60-126%)
Toon Link (60-96%)
Samus (65-98%)
ZSS (55-109%)
Pit (59-98%)
Dark Pit (59-98%)
Palutena (57-79%)
Marth (58-87%)
Lucina (58-87%)
Ike (65-128%)
Robin (58-116%)
Kirby (53-95%)
Dedede (66-139%)
Meta Knight (54-111%)
Little Mac (55-114%)
Fox (50-115%)
Falco (51-104%)
Pikachu (55-108%) ~ Aim forward at 55%, above that you can aim upward
Charizard (66-113%)
Lucario (60-117%)
Jigglypuff (Impossible because it's Jigglypuff)
Greninja (55-115%)
Duck Hunt (56-98%)
ROB (63-126%)
Ness (60-101%)
Captain Falcon (63-138%)
Villager (61-106%)
Olimar (55-99%)
WFT (61-95%)
Shulk (61-110%)
Pacman (60-85%)
Mega Man (63-125%)
Sonic (61-108%)

I also identified the unknown substates but the back slashes may be (are probably) wrong. Some help would be very appreciated.

unknown substate 0x242 (Back slash grounded-Back hit)
unknown substate 0x243 (Back slash grounded-Back hit)
unknown substate 0x244 (Back slash charge-Back hit)
unknown substate 0x24a (Back slash grounded-Back hit)
unknown substate 0x24b (Back slash grounded-Back hit)
unknown substate 0x24c (Back slash grounded-Back hit)
unknown substate 0x24e (Back slash leap grounded-Back hit)
unknown substate 0x24f (Back slash leap grounded-Back hit)
unknown substate 0x250 (Back slash leap grounded-Back hit)
unknown substate 0x252 (Air slash first hit)
unknown substate 0x253 (Advancing air slash first hit)
unknown substate 0x254 (Mighty air slash first hit)
unknown substate 0x25a (Air slash second hit)
unknown substate 0x25b (Advancing air slash second hit)
unknown substate 0x25c (Mighty air slash second hit hit)
unknown substate 0x26a (Vision - Forward input)
unknown substate 0x26b (Dash vision - Forward input)
unknown substate 0x26c (Power vision - Forward input)
unknown substate 0x26e (Vision - Normal input)
unknown substate 0x26f (Dash vision - Normal input)
unknown substate 0x270 (Power vision - Normal input)
unknown substate 0x282 (???)
unknown substate 0x283 (???)
unknown substate 0x287 (???)
 
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FlareHabanero

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Does anyone remember that odd Back Slash glitch where Shulk uses it very low to the ground and he doesn't do the little hop? I don't have a video showing it atm, but if we could find a way to replicate that I think BS (lol what an abbreviation) would be a lot more useful than it currently is.
Some context for this glitch would be nice, so I could start experimenting.
 

MarioFireRed

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Does anyone remember that odd Back Slash glitch where Shulk uses it very low to the ground and he doesn't do the little hop? I don't have a video showing it atm, but if we could find a way to replicate that I think BS (lol what an abbreviation) would be a lot more useful than it currently is.
This...would be pretty helpful depending on how it would look and how to execute it in both the 3DS and Wii U versions. Opponent would call BS on that though XD.
 

MarioFireRed

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...What was that...

That didn't appear in the 3DS version...

Did the Monado JUST decide to go all "Can't cut Humans" after playing with the Sm4sh crew for about 2-3 months?
 

FlareHabanero

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Might be a version exclusive hiccup.

A side effect of developing for two vastly different pieces of hardware while trying to stay identical.

But I might need to test that.
 
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Yeah, I bumped into that also but so far, it's only worked on Sheik and you really have to stick VERY close to her and she needs to idle

I'll try it on other characters but this only happens at scenarios that never happen anyway as far as I know
 
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Opana

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I believe fthrow perfect pivot utilt can catch some characters who jump.
 

Zephil

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I believe fthrow perfect pivot utilt can catch some characters who jump.
Good idea, I will try it and see how it goes. BTW guys I have been looking at the forum and I don't see a thread regarding stages discussion and counterpicks and I think this will be really useful.

Also I want to go in detail about how good is Town & City for Shulk and why I think is his best stage
 
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Good idea, I will try it and see how it goes. BTW guys I have been looking at the forum and I don't see a thread regarding stages discussion and counterpicks and I think this will be really useful.

Also I want to go in detail about how good is Town & City for Shulk and why I think is his best stage
I'll get on to that at some point
 

Opana

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Just to specify, I did the perfect pivot utilt in 1.4th speed lol, although that was on the ds and it's easier on the u.
 

S.F.L.R_9

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suffler9
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Hmm... Maybe it happens if you jump before using Back Slash on the first frame?
I've tested that before multiple times and it didn't work, although that was on the 3DS and I wasn't used to the controls so I most likely was not getting it on frame 1. If anyone could please test out the frame 1 jump theory, I'd greatly appreciate it. I'm not home atm, but I'll try testing it later on the Wii U version.
 
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Opana

Smash Lord
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Maybe it's caused by buffering a Back Slash while in Shield out of a grab release?

It's similar to running off the ledge and Back Slashing back, which is pretty interesting.
 

FlareHabanero

Banned via Warnings
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Maybe it's caused by buffering a Back Slash while in Shield out of a grab release?

It's similar to running off the ledge and Back Slashing back, which is pretty interesting.
It might not be exclusive to a grab release or Shield if the above gif Nammy posted has merit.
 

Opana

Smash Lord
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It might not be exclusive to a grab release or Shield if the above gif Nammy posted has merit.
Somehow missed that, then yeah maybe it'll work if buffered out of hitstun induced by another player. I tried buffering out of item spawns but I couldn't get it out of things like bombs, so I'm assuming it'll have to be from another player.
 

erico9001

You must find your own path to the future.
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I'm pretty certain what is causing that is the sliding across the ground. It must carry the 'don't let character leave ground' code into back slash for some reason.
 

Nammy12

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So I went to my bookstore today and they had the Smash bros prima guide.
Funny thing is that the book was based on 1.03 so it was kind of useless in terms of damage but there was still some neat information.
Vision (Down Special) DAMAGE See Vision Data Table
Shulk brings down his sword to counter incoming attacks. The counterattack is a large wind-up sword swing. Hold the direction towards your opponent while countering and Shulk will dash past the opponent and swing behind himself. This counter attack launches farther. The more you use this counter, the less effective it becomes. Each time you use it, the counter window shrinks to about 2/3 of its original size.

Dash Vision DAMAGE See Vision Data Table
Shulk counters incoming attacks with a farther-reaching retaliation. The counter window is slightly smaller than usual and decreases at the same rate as the original; however, the counter window does recover slightly quicker.

Power Vision DAMAGE See Vision Data Table
This version has a much larger window to counter attacks and deals much more DAMAGE. When you use it, however, the counter window shrinks to about 1/10 of its original size! If you rarely use counterattacks and have a high rate of landing them when you do, this is the version for you.
frame data.jpg
 
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Heavy C4

Smash Cadet
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Jun 10, 2014
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Manhattan
I'm really not feeling it for the back slash.

Can I have some advice to use this move at all? I would also like to know how to use the custom moves of back slash.
 
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