Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[Phampy]

This is what I was talking about for the Falco combo a few posts back. Looking at it now, looks like you should be able to jab or maybe DI out of it? Might still prove handy if they're not expecting it. Someone else want to test it out with a friend?

 

[FlareHabanero]

I'm curious if you can make a zero to death with other characters using down throw -> up tilt with Buster actually.

Also, can this be emulated on the 3DS?

 

[Opana]

An idea I had that would be highly situational:

What if we used a throw or attack before an art activates so it'll lead into a move it otherwise wouldn't with the art active? I could see this being most useful when transitioning to Smash, if not for a kill setup then a gimp set up.`

 

[erico9001]

Idk if anyone saw this but it's pretty important imo. Very large difference in your safety against counters depending on if you're in Buster/Smash

Shulk's counter calculates damage based off of the opponent's damage and then multiplies it. For this reason, a counter used against a move that is being used from Monado Buster will deal much more damage (and therefore knockback) to that Shulk. Furthermore, counters used against a person in Monado Speed, Monado Shield, and Monado Smash are less effective. Also keep in mind that the monado art you are in effects the knockback/damage of your own counter when it hits the opponent. However, the damage taken increase from Monado Jump does not actually effect your counter, interestingly.

So a Monado Smash + counter against a Monado Buster + up close ftilt KOs as early as 58% with no DI or vectoring from the training mode spawn point of FD, heading left. Wow, I don't even want to know how low the kill percent would be with a power vision. The percent killed at is 67% with the person doing the counter being Vanilla Shulk. The KO % is 108% without any Monado art influence from either side. If the person attacking the person using the counter is in Monado Smash, the kill percent is, hilariously, 189%! This kill % is lower than using f-tilt yourself, d-tilt, U-tilt, Dair, Uair, Bair, Smashes, and either Dthrow or Bthrow depending on location relative to the stage.

It doesn't just apply to Shulk's counter, since I'm pretty sure that all counters calculate based off of damage. You really need to watch out for counters when in Monado Buster; while in Monado Smash you don't need to worry nearly as much.

Something else: I think it's smart to use a button other than B to activate the second strike of Air Slash. Any button that is set to either attack or grab works. The reason for this is I've had many instances where I've been caused to do back slash when I mean to do the second hit for air slash. Firstly, it's good practice for a Shulk user to get used to using the up-B then moving the joystick over to the side to get the horizontal movement between the two strikes of the move, improving Shulk's recoverability. This also makes B-reversed air slashes more natural. However, if you are playing online and there is a freeze lag and your input of the initial Air Slash is not read, when you automatically move the joystick over to the side and hit B again for the second hit, you will instead back slash (to your death). This has happened to me on many occasions. However, this situation of back slashing can be caused offline with a low knockback move, striking you just before you input the second strike. For me, it was a Ness who used his side B used off stage at me. It hit me just right before I hit B, and there I go, back slashing to infinite. Even if you have not had something like this happen before, it may still want to switch to using A or your grab button as a precaution.

 

[Masonomace]

About Air Slashing:

Delaying the ending of the 1st hit as much as you can is a good practical way of making the most of Air Slash's horizontal drifting, because by the time you do input the 2nd hit of Air Slash you're gaining much more horizontal movement than you would normally pressing B twice very quickly to get that extra height. It's also advantageous to be holding toward the direction you're recovering to during the 1st hit of Air Slash rather than just pressing straight up on the control stick / circle pad, but yeah. For what Erico said about using a button other than B, I caution others to not be just pressing A by itself without any directional influence, since we know what N-air off-stage falling is like. . .so for that reason it's advised to be utilizing the forward movement you can get out of Air Slash with pressing A in mind for the 2nd Air Slash for a F-air in case you're hit during the 1st Air Slash.

 

[erico9001]

About Air Slashing:

Delaying the ending of the 1st hit as much as you can is a good practical way of making the most of Air Slash's horizontal drifting, because by the time you do input the 2nd hit of Air Slash you're gaining much more horizontal movement than you would normally pressing B twice very quickly to get that extra height. It's also advantageous to be holding toward the direction you're recovering to during the 1st hit of Air Slash rather than just pressing straight up on the control stick / circle pad, but yeah. For what Erico said about using a button other than B, I caution others to not be just pressing A by itself without any directional influence, since we know what N-air off-stage falling is like. . .so for that reason it's advised to be utilizing the forward movement you can get out of Air Slash with pressing A in mind for the 2nd Air Slash for a F-air in case you're hit during the 1st Air Slash.

Oh yeah, that Nair would wreck you too lol, so definitely be holding to the side if doing A. Oh, and now that I think of it, pressing B would also be bad even without pressing to the side, because it would bring up the Monado Arts, preventing you from doing your up B. Pressing the grab button isn't a bad solution, though, causing an air dodge. However, if you're used to the timing of the delay between the two strikes, the grab button might mess up your timing if it on the shoulder of the controller.

An idea I had that would be highly situational:

What if we used a throw or attack before an art activates so it'll lead into a move it otherwise wouldn't with the art active? I could see this being most useful when transitioning to Smash, if not for a kill setup then a gimp set up.`

Hmm. There's only a few situations I could see this coming in use. One of them is at very low percents. Press to get to Buster, grab, U-throw, Buster activates, U-tilt, U-tilt. At very low percents, Monado Buster's U-throw does not send opponents high enough, so this might be good to overcome that. Other situations I could see are to U-throw before Monado Smash activates so that the enemy does not go too high then air slash. Killed Pikachu at 90% when I tried it in training mode. Other than that, maybe throw the opponent off the stage before Smash activates to have them in a closer range? I'm not too sure if you could benefit from that at all.

However... this just made me realize something I think is pretty cool. Remember how @ Masonomace found you can deactive Monado Arts while doing something else like shielding or attacking? That can apply here! Deactivate Buster while doing a B-throw -> Back Slash combo to get an early KO depending on location on the stage. Testing this in practice mode, it KOs Mario if initially at 58% if he lands at the far edge of final destination. If Mario is initially at the middle of FD it KOs at 61%. A pummel in Buster mode does 4% damage, so technically those percents could be a bit earlier. Honestly, this seems completely viable.

 

[TheHopefulHero]

Oh yeah, that Nair would wreck you too lol, so definitely be holding to the side if doing A. Oh, and now that I think of it, pressing B would also be bad even without pressing to the side, because it would bring up the Monado Arts, preventing you from doing your up B. Pressing the grab button isn't a bad solution, though, causing an air dodge. However, if you're used to the timing of the delay between the two strikes, the grab button might mess up your timing if it on the shoulder of the controller.

Hmm. There's only a few situations I could see this coming in use. One of them is at very low percents. Press to get to Buster, grab, U-throw, Buster activates, U-tilt, U-tilt. At very low percents, Monado Buster's U-throw does not send opponents high enough, so this might be good to overcome that. Other situations I could see are to U-throw before Monado Smash activates so that the enemy does not go too high then air slash. Killed Pikachu at 90% when I tried it in training mode. Other than that, maybe throw the opponent off the stage before Smash activates to have them in a closer range? I'm not too sure if you could benefit from that at all.

However... this just made me realize something I think is pretty cool. Remember how @ Masonomace found you can deactive Monado Arts while doing something else like shielding or attacking? That can apply here! Deactivate Buster while doing a B-throw -> Back Slash combo to get an early KO depending on location on the stage. Testing this in practice mode, it KOs Mario if initially at 58% if he lands at the far edge of final destination. If Mario is initially at the middle of FD it KOs at 61%. A pummel in Buster mode does 4% damage, so technically those percents could be a bit earlier. Honestly, this seems completely viable.

It's possible alright. Sometimes I'm able to take advantage of the reduced knock-back of Speed Art, cancel it while Shulk is doing his d-throw, and get enough jump height to hit someone with F-air when it wasn't able to connect when I was had Speed active. This can be situational in many cases, but it can be a powerful tool if we can somehow apply this into Shulk's options. The ability to "burn" a Monado Art's effects in order to gain an advantage we normally couldn't have is something I want to experiment with all of the Monado arts. So far, I could only work with Speed and Buster (namely trying to hit make-shift combos / extend some combos), but imagine what would happen if we can make something work if we "burn" a Smash Art (Maybe set up a off-stage combo?).

There's so much too do and experiment with this... Shulk could have something akin to Stance Canceling mid-combo.

 

[kenniky]

Either usmash or fsmash would benefit from having smash activate in the middle, for the extra damage and lowering the chance of popping out.

Also accidentally pressing neutral B in midair is not that bad because it defaults to Jump :/

 

[erico9001]

It's possible alright. Sometimes I'm able to take advantage of the reduced knock-back of Speed Art, cancel it while Shulk is doing his d-throw, and get enough jump height to hit someone with F-air when it wasn't able to connect when I was had Speed active. This can be situational in many cases, but it can be a powerful tool if we can somehow apply this into Shulk's options. The ability to "burn" a Monado Art's effects in order to gain an advantage we normally couldn't have is something I want to experiment with all of the Monado arts. So far, I could only work with Speed and Buster (namely trying to hit make-shift combos / extend some combos), but imagine what would happen if we can make something work if we "burn" a Smash Art (Maybe set up a off-stage combo?).

There's so much too do and experiment with this... Shulk could have something akin to Stance Canceling mid-combo.

Actually, Speed doesn't lower knockback much at all.

I was curious about how much so I did some testing and found it's just the difference in damage that is causing the less knockback. I tested the kill percents against a Shulk with Shulk's D-smash, first going right then going left. The difference in damage caused by the move is 4% and so are the kill percents.
Right:
Vanilla: 57%
Speed: 61%
Left:
Vanilla: 94%
Speed: 98%

 

[Berserker.]

So about air slash. It really feels like a bit of a gamble when you use this to KO while using it as an anti-air so make sure you space it right and carefully so that you won't get hit out of it. If you're unsure about spacing it, just use it when you see the opponent use an aerial (Watch out if the aerial has a lingering hit box like any sex kick or Villager's aerials in general)

Also, I developed a new found love for air slash KO'ing. And just to remind people because this was probably ignored, you can replace air slash with f-air in N-air->F-air->Air slash. It's a lot safer and more practical anyway. Idk why I ended it with air slash. Maybe it's more useful at the last stock (and when you're gimping), but it's not as safe

 

[TreK]

Can't seem to find it, but then again I've only read about ten pages of this thread
Is there a table for Shulk's kill% on every move, for every MArt ?

I've picked up a few new combos thanks to y'all, but it you guys had a combo thread, I think I'd spend a lot of time in it.

I'd like to do some research as well (like, do MArt landing lag cancels make us safe on shield ? What combos do they allow us to do ? stuff like that) but I have no idea how you guys do it in Sm4sh. What do you use to go frame by frame ?

 

[Nammy12]

Can't seem to find it, but then again I've only read about ten pages of this thread
Is there a table for Shulk's kill% on every move, for every MArt ?

There's a list on when Smash mode kills on berserker's post on the first page. For Vanilla mode add about 15+% more.

 

[Berserker.]

Alright, I might make a combo thread soon. Also, we don't have Shulk's KO % on all arts. Just mostly Smash art. We'll get to that soon starting with vanilla since jump is one of our KO arts (Although adding ~+15% seems like the idea, we should test it just in case)

http://smashboards.com/threads/shulk-combo-thread.385136/

 

[Berserker.]

Dantarion, Thinkaman, and Ampharos did all this tables and values

Shulk's KO% table

Shulk's damage table

Shulk's frame speed table

Also, they updated the frame data

1. BEGIN shulk
2. **********
3. Jab1
4. Frame 5- 6: 3.5% 100f/40w 60°
5. Frame 5- 6: 3.5% 100f/40w 70°
6. Frame 5- 6: 3.5% 100f/40w 88°
7. Max Damage: 3.5%
8. Enables transition to next jab state on real frame 11
9. 
   
10. Jab2
11. Frame 5- 7: 3.5% 100f/52w 66°
12. Frame 5- 7: 3.5% 100f/52w 70°
13. Frame 5- 7: 3.5% 100f/52w 80°
14. Max Damage: 7%
15. Enables transition to next jab state on real frame 12
16. 
    
17. Jab3
18. Frame 12-13: 5.3% 60b/100g (KO@ 257%) 50° Slash
19. Frame 14-14: 4.2% 70b/100g (KO@ 294%) 70° Slash
20. Max Damage: 12.3%
21. 
    
22. Dash Attack
23. Frame 15-16: 11% 70b/80g (KO@ 182%) 60° Slash
24. Max Damage: 11%
25. 
    
26. F-tilt (normal)
27. Frame 12-13: 13% 30b/92g (KO@ 140%) 361° Slash
28. Frame 12-13: 11.5% 30b/92g (KO@ 159%) 361° Slash
29. Max Damage: 13%
30. 
    
31. U-tilt
32. Frame 11-23: 8% 70b/90g (KO@ 185%) 85° Slash
33. Frame 13-23: 7% 65b/85g (KO@ 241%) 108° Slash
34. Max Damage: 8%
35. 
    
36. D-tilt
37. Frame 10-11: 9% 45b/90g (KO@ 229%) 60° 0.3-Trip Slash
38. Frame 10-11: 7% 45b/90g (KO@ 284%) 60° 0.3-Trip Slash
39. Max Damage: 9%
40. 
    
41. F-smash (high)
42. Frame 14-16: 5.5% 100f/28w 10° 1.5-Hitlag
43. Frame 14-16: 5.5% 100f/28w 40° 1.5-Hitlag
44. Frame 14-16: 5.5% 100f/28w 78° 1.5-Hitlag
45. Frame 23-23: 13% 30b/125g (KO@ 94%) 361° 2.0-Hitlag Pierce
46. Frame 23-23: 11.5% 30b/125g (KO@ 108%) 361° 2.0-Hitlag Pierce
47. Max Damage: 18.5%
48. Smash charge window on real frame 9
49. 
    
50. F-smash (normal)
51. Frame 14-15: 5.5% 100f/28w 10° 1.5-Hitlag
52. Frame 14-15: 5.5% 100f/28w 40° 1.5-Hitlag
53. Frame 14-15: 5.5% 100f/28w 78° 1.5-Hitlag
54. Frame 23-23: 13% 30b/115g (KO@ 104%) 361° 2.0-Hitlag Pierce
55. Frame 23-23: 11.5% 30b/115g (KO@ 119%) 361° 2.0-Hitlag Pierce
56. Max Damage: 18.5%
57. Smash charge window on real frame 9
58. 
    
59. F-smash (low)
60. Frame 14-16: 5.5% 100f/28w 10° 1.5-Hitlag
61. Frame 14-16: 5.5% 100f/28w 40° 1.5-Hitlag
62. Frame 14-16: 5.5% 100f/28w 78° 1.5-Hitlag
63. Frame 23-23: 13% 30b/115g (KO@ 104%) 361° 2.0-Hitlag Pierce
64. Frame 23-23: 11.5% 30b/115g (KO@ 119%) 361° 2.0-Hitlag Pierce
65. Max Damage: 18.5%
66. Smash charge window on real frame 9
67. 
    
68. U-smash
69. Frame 18-21: 4.5% 100f/110w 105° Ground-Target-Only
70. Frame 18-29: 4.5% 40f/70w 92°
71. Frame 18-29: 4.5% 100f/60w 92°
72. Frame 30-33: 13.5% 45b/98g (KO@ 124%) 89° Pierce
73. Max Damage: 13.5%
74. Smash charge window on real frame 11
75. 
    
76. D-smash
77. Frame 18-19: 14% 50b/95g (KO@ 113%) 45° Slash
78. Frame 18-19: 14% 50b/95g (KO@ 130%) 55° Slash
79. Frame 18-19: 14% 50b/95g (KO@ 106%) 361° Slash
80. Frame 18-19: 11% 50b/95g (KO@ 137%) 361° Slash
81. Frame 23-24: 12% 50b/95g (KO@ 120%) 45° Slash
82. Frame 23-24: 12% 50b/95g (KO@ 139%) 55° Slash
83. Frame 23-24: 12% 50b/95g (KO@ 112%) 361° Slash
84. Frame 23-24: 10% 50b/95g (KO@ 137%) 361° Slash
85. Frame 28-29: 10% 55b/90g (KO@ 137%) 45° Slash
86. Frame 28-29: 10% 55b/90g (KO@ 160%) 55° Slash
87. Frame 28-29: 10% 55b/90g (KO@ 127%) 361° Slash
88. Frame 28-29: 8% 55b/90g (KO@ 162%) 361° Slash
89. Frame 35-36: 8% 60b/90g (KO@ 144%) 361° Slash
90. Frame 35-36: 6% 60b/90g (KO@ 193%) 361° Slash
91. Frame 41-42: 4% 60b/90g (KO@ 266%) 361° Slash
92. Max Damage: 50%
93. Smash charge window on real frame 5
94. 
    
95. Nair
96. Frame 13-30: 8% 40b/100g (KO@ 212%) 50° Slash
97. Frame 13-30: 7% 40b/100g (KO@ 237%) 50° Slash
98. Max Damage: 8%
99. Enables transition to Nair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 1
100. Cancels transition to Nair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 80
101. 
     
102. Fair
103. Frame 14-18: 7.5% 46b/100g (KO@ 191%) 361° Slash
104. Frame 14-18: 6% 46b/100g (KO@ 230%) 361° Slash
105. Max Damage: 7.5%
106. Enables transition to Fair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 1
107. Cancels transition to Fair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 57
108. 
     
109. Bair
110. Frame 18-22: 12% 35b/100g (KO@ 134%) 361° Slash
111. Frame 21-22: 8% 35b/100g (KO@ 197%) 361° Slash
112. Max Damage: 12%
113. Enables transition to Bair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 1
114. Cancels transition to Bair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 79
115. 
     
116. Uair
117. Frame 14-15: 5% 100f/60w 100° 1.2-Hitlag
118. Frame 24-25: 10% 55b/100g (KO@ 147%) 88° 1.2-Hitlag Pierce
119. Frame 24-25: 7.5% 55b/100g (KO@ 193%) 88° 1.2-Hitlag Pierce
120. Max Damage: 15%
121. Enables transition to Uair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 1
122. Cancels transition to Uair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 79
123. 
     
124. Dair
125. Frame 14-15: 7% 100f/20w 160° 1.2-Hitlag Ground-Target-Only
126. Frame 14-15: 5% 100f/20w 172° 1.2-Hitlag Aerial-Target-Only
127. Frame 23-24: 11% 10b/90g (KO@ 263%) 270° Pierce Aerial-Target-Only
128. Frame 23-24: 11% 10b/85g (KO@ 200%) 361° Pierce
129. Frame 23-24: 10% 55b/85g (KO@ 156%) 361° Pierce
130. Max Damage: 18%
131. Enables transition to Dair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 1
132. Cancels transition to Dair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 78
133. 
     
134. Grab
135. Frame 7- 8: Grab
136. Enables state transition on real frame 9
137. 
     
138. Dash Grab
139. Frame 9-10: Grab
140. Enables state transition on real frame 11
141. 
     
142. Pivot Grab
143. Frame 10-11: Grab
144. Enables state transition on real frame 12
145. 
     
146. Pummel
147. Frame 5- 5: 3% 100f/30w 361° 1.5-Hitlag
148. Max Damage: 3%
149. 
     
150. F-throw
151. Frame 1-14: 8% 60b/70g (KO@ 249%) 45°
152. Frame 15-16: 3% 100f/50w 361° 1.2-Hitlag Slash
153. Max Damage: 11%
154. 
     
155. B-throw
156. Frame 1-17: 9% 70b/63g (KO@ 230%) 135°
157. Frame 18-19: 3% 100f/50w 361° 1.2-Hitlag Pierce
158. Max Damage: 12%
159. 
     
160. U-throw
161. Frame 1-19: 4% 60b/80g (KO@ 389%) 88°
162. Frame 20-21: 3% 30b/120g (KO@ 346%) 361° 1.5-Hitlag Pierce
163. Max Damage: 7%
164. 
     
165. D-throw
166. Frame 1-22: 4% 75b/115g (KO@ 242%) 50°
167. Frame 23-24: 3% 0b/100g (KO@ 503%) 361° 1.2-Hitlag Pierce
168. Max Damage: 7%
169. 
     
170. Back Slash (startup)
171. Frame 31-41: 16%(+7) 30b/100g (KO@ 101%) 140° 1.5-Hitlag Slash Away-Facing-Target-Only
172. Frame 31-41: 14%(+7) 30b/100g (KO@ 118%) 140° 1.5-Hitlag Slash Away-Facing-Target-Only
173. Frame 31-41: 10%(+7) 30b/100g (KO@ 166%) 361° 0.8-Hitlag Slash
174. Frame 31-41: 9%(+7) 30b/100g (KO@ 184%) 361° 0.8-Hitlag Slash
175. Frame 34-41: 16%(+7) 30b/100g (KO@ 101%) 140° 1.5-Hitlag Slash Away-Facing-Target-Only
176. Frame 34-41: 14%(+7) 30b/100g (KO@ 118%) 140° 1.5-Hitlag Slash Away-Facing-Target-Only
177. Frame 34-41: 10%(+7) 30b/100g (KO@ 166%) 361° 0.8-Hitlag Slash
178. Frame 34-41: 9%(+7) 30b/100g (KO@ 184%) 361° 0.8-Hitlag Slash
179. Max Damage: 16%
180. 
     
181. Back Slash Leap (startup)
182. Frame 28-29: 12%(+7) 30b/100g (KO@ 139%) 140° 1.5-Hitlag Slash Away-Facing-Target-Only
183. Frame 28-29: 11%(+7) 30b/100g (KO@ 152%) 140° 1.5-Hitlag Slash Away-Facing-Target-Only
184. Frame 28-29: 6%(+7) 30b/100g (KO@ 259%) 361° 0.8-Hitlag Slash
185. Frame 28-29: 4%(+7) 30b/100g (KO@ 349%) 361° 0.8-Hitlag Slash
186. Max Damage: 12%
187. 
     
188. Back Slash Charge (startup)
189. Frame 31-32: 15%(+7) 30b/100g (KO@ 109%) 140° 1.5-Hitlag Slash Away-Facing-Target-Only
190. Frame 31-32: 13%(+7) 30b/100g (KO@ 128%) 140° 1.5-Hitlag Slash Away-Facing-Target-Only
191. Frame 31-32: 6%(+7) 25b/100g (KO@ 268%) 361° 0.8-Hitlag Slash
192. Frame 31-32: 4%(+7) 25b/100g (KO@ 361%) 361° 0.8-Hitlag Slash
193. Max Damage: 15%
194. Begins super armor on real frame 1
195. Ends super armor on real frame 31
196. 
     
197. Back Slash (fall)
198. Frame 1- 2: 16%(+7) 30b/100g (KO@ 101%) 140° 1.5-Hitlag Slash Away-Facing-Target-Only
199. Frame 1- 2: 14%(+7) 30b/100g (KO@ 118%) 140° 1.5-Hitlag Slash Away-Facing-Target-Only
200. Frame 1- 2: 10%(+7) 30b/100g (KO@ 166%) 361° 0.8-Hitlag Slash
201. Frame 1- 2: 9%(+7) 30b/100g (KO@ 184%) 361° 0.8-Hitlag Slash
202. Max Damage: 16%
203. 
     
204. Back Slash Leap (fall)
205. Frame 1- 2: 16%(+7) 30b/100g (KO@ 101%) 140° 1.5-Hitlag Slash Away-Facing-Target-Only
206. Frame 1- 2: 14%(+7) 30b/100g (KO@ 118%) 140° 1.5-Hitlag Slash Away-Facing-Target-Only
207. Frame 1- 2: 10%(+7) 30b/100g (KO@ 166%) 361° 0.8-Hitlag Slash
208. Frame 1- 2: 9%(+7) 30b/100g (KO@ 184%) 361° 0.8-Hitlag Slash
209. Max Damage: 16%
210. 
     
211. Back Slash Charge (fall)
212. Frame 1- 2: 11%(+7) 30b/100g (KO@ 152%) 140° 1.5-Hitlag Slash Away-Facing-Target-Only
213. Frame 1- 2: 9%(+7) 30b/100g (KO@ 184%) 140° 1.5-Hitlag Slash Away-Facing-Target-Only
214. Frame 1- 2: 4%(+7) 25b/100g (KO@ 361%) 361° 0.8-Hitlag Slash
215. Frame 1- 2: 3.5%(+7) 25b/100g (KO@ 395%) 361° 0.8-Hitlag Slash
216. Max Damage: 11%
217. 
     
218. Back Slash (landing)
219. Frame 1- 2: 15%(+10) 25b/100g (KO@ 114%) 140° 1.5-Hitlag Slash Away-Facing-Target-Only
220. Frame 1- 2: 13%(+10) 25b/100g (KO@ 133%) 140° 1.5-Hitlag Slash Away-Facing-Target-Only
221. Frame 1- 2: 10%(+10) 25b/100g (KO@ 172%) 361° 0.8-Hitlag Slash
222. Frame 1- 2: 9%(+10) 25b/100g (KO@ 190%) 361° 0.8-Hitlag Slash
223. Max Damage: 15%
224. 
     
225. Back Slash Leap (landing)
226. Frame 1- 4: 18%(+10) 25b/100g (KO@ 91%) 140° 1.5-Hitlag Slash Away-Facing-Target-Only
227. Frame 1- 4: 16%(+10) 25b/100g (KO@ 105%) 140° 1.5-Hitlag Slash Away-Facing-Target-Only
228. Frame 1- 4: 10%(+10) 25b/100g (KO@ 172%) 361° 0.8-Hitlag Slash
229. Frame 1- 4: 8%(+10) 25b/100g (KO@ 211%) 361° 0.8-Hitlag Slash
230. Max Damage: 18%
231. 
     
232. Back Slash Charge (landing)
233. Frame 1- 2: 14%(+10) 25b/100g (KO@ 123%) 140° 1.5-Hitlag Slash Away-Facing-Target-Only
234. Frame 1- 2: 12%(+10) 25b/100g (KO@ 144%) 140° 1.5-Hitlag Slash Away-Facing-Target-Only
235. Frame 1- 2: 6%(+10) 22b/100g (KO@ 273%) 361° 0.8-Hitlag Slash
236. Frame 1- 2: 4.5%(+10) 22b/100g (KO@ 339%) 361° 0.8-Hitlag Slash
237. Frame 3- 4: 7%(+10) 25b/100g (KO@ 123%) 140° 1.5-Hitlag Slash Away-Facing-Target-Only
238. Frame 3- 4: 6%(+10) 25b/100g (KO@ 144%) 140° 1.5-Hitlag Slash Away-Facing-Target-Only
239. Frame 3- 4: 4%(+10) 22b/100g (KO@ 273%) 361° 0.8-Hitlag Slash
240. Frame 3- 4: 3%(+10) 22b/100g (KO@ 339%) 361° 0.8-Hitlag Slash
241. Max Damage: 14%
242. 
     
243. Air Slash (first hit)
244. Frame 10-11: 6% 100f/140w 78° Slash
245. Frame 10-11: 6% 100f/135w 91° Slash
246. Frame 10-11: 6% 100f/100w 85° Slash
247. Frame 12-14: 5% 100f/80w 86° Slash
248. Frame 12-14: 5% 100f/78w 80° Slash
249. Frame 15-17: 5% 100f/43w 52° Slash
250. Frame 15-17: 5% 100f/43w 70° Slash
251. Max Damage: 6%
252. Enables state transition on real frame 10
253. Enables forward ledge grabs on real frame 10
254. Enables all ledge grabs on real frame 40
255. 
     
256. Advancing Air Slash (first hit)
257. Frame 10-11: 6% 100f/120w 60° Slash
258. Frame 10-11: 6% 100f/100w 60° Slash
259. Frame 10-11: 6% 100f/90w 60° Slash
260. Frame 12-14: 5% 100f/80w 55° Slash
261. Frame 12-14: 5% 100f/78w 55° Slash
262. Frame 15-17: 5% 100f/43w 45° Slash
263. Max Damage: 6%
264. Enables state transition on real frame 10
265. Enables forward ledge grabs on real frame 10
266. Enables all ledge grabs on real frame 40
267. 
     
268. Mighty Air Slash (first hit)
269. Frame 10-11: 9% 100f/140w 78° Slash
270. Frame 10-11: 9% 100f/135w 91° Slash
271. Frame 12-14: 7% 100f/100w 80° Slash
272. Frame 15-15: 7% 100f/80w 52° Slash
273. Max Damage: 9%
274. Enables state transition on real frame 10
275. Enables forward ledge grabs on real frame 10
276. Enables all ledge grabs on real frame 40
277. 
     
278. Air Slash (second hit)
279. Frame 15-16: 5.5% 35b/170g (KO@ 168%) 48° 1.3-Hitlag Slash
280. Max Damage: 5.5%
281. 
     
282. Advancing Air Slash (second hit)
283. Frame 11-12: 8% 35b/130g (KO@ 162%) 48° 1.3-Hitlag Slash
284. Max Damage: 8%
285. 
     
286. Mighty Air Slash (second hit)
287. Frame 15-16: 10% 55b/80g (KO@ 196%) 80° 2.0-Hitlag Slash
288. Max Damage: 10%
289. 
     
290. Vision (fast hit)
291. Frame 21-21: 13% 70b/94g (KO@ 112%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
292. Frame 21-21: 10% 70b/94g (KO@ 147%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
293. Max Damage: 13%
294. 
     
295. Dash Vision (fast hit)
296. Frame 13-13: 11% 70b/94g (KO@ 108%) 35° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
297. Frame 13-13: 8% 70b/94g (KO@ 147%) 35° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
298. Max Damage: 11%
299. 
     
300. Power Vision (fast hit)
301. Frame 41-44: 20% 70b/100g (KO@ 60%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
302. Frame 41-44: 17% 70b/100g (KO@ 76%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
303. Max Damage: 20%
304. 
     
305. Vision (normal hit)
306. Frame 8- 9: 10% 70b/84g (KO@ 166%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
307. Frame 8- 9: 7% 70b/84g (KO@ 228%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
308. Max Damage: 10%
309. 
     
310. Dash Vision (normal hit
311. Frame 8-11: 8% 70b/84g (KO@ 166%) 35° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
312. Frame 8-11: 5% 70b/84g (KO@ 244%) 35° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
313. Max Damage: 8%
314. 
     
315. Power Vision (normal hit)
316. Frame 12-17: 17% 70b/100g (KO@ 76%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
317. Frame 12-17: 14% 70b/100g (KO@ 96%) 50° 2.0-Hitlag Slash Unblockable
318. Max Damage: 17%
319. 
     
320. Final Smash
321. Frame 20-22: 3% 100f/200w 80° Unblockable
322. Max Damage: 3%
323. 
     
324. Final Smash
325. Frame 1- 2: 5% 105b/180g (KO@ 77%) 361°
326. Max Damage: 5%
327. 
     
328. Final Smash
329. Frame 15-34: 2% 80f/1w 361°
330. Frame 245-246: 12% 80f/1w 361°
331. Max Damage: 34%
332. 
     
333. **********
334. END shulk

Updated my OP

 

[Robby9856]

My shulk combos are coming along, now that I have a good idea when they work. Props to the people who found all the percents! :D

Anyways, I thought I would bring a new topic to the table. Regarding trumps with Shulk. So before I thought that Shulk wasn't really worth trumping with, because his bair comes out too late to hit the opponent after the trump. But after messing with some trump training today, I realized that we could incorperate Marts. So at first you might ask why this would help. And I will tell you why it helps. This strategy is very hard to pull off though. But anyways this is the strategy:

We can activate a Mart a bit before we grab the ledge and trump the opponent. Then when we let go of the ledge by hitting down, If timed correctly, the Mart will activate allowing us to turn around. Then, we can throw out a fair which comes out faster opposed to a bair.

Now thats only the start. If we could execute this efficently, we could go into smash art instead of any rendom art for some really early kills.

Now this needs to be tested more, but I'm pretty confident fair can come out fast enough to work with the trump. The hard part is to activate the Mart at the right time and trump the opponent.

Anyways, thanks for reading. I would like to see everyones thoughts on this!

 

[erico9001]

With that new frame data, I've updated that list of options Shulk has in terms of speed. A ~ placed before the frame value signifies the most likely frame value, often because it is based off of information that has probably not changed since Brawl.

Standing/walking options
01 - Shield
~2 - Spot dodge
~4-5 - Roll
05 - Jab
06 - Vision
07 - Grab
10 - D-tilt
10 - Air Slash (all customs too)
11 - U-tilt (in front, before beam comes out)
12 - F-tilt
13 - U-tilt (when the beam comes out)
14 - F-Smash
~17 - Jump -> Nair
~18 - Jump -> Fair
~18 - Jump -> Uair (Initial hit)
~24 - Jump -> Bair (Monado's beam not extended, close range)
~26 - Jump -> Bair (Monado's beam extended out behind)28 - Back Slash Leap
31 - Back Slash/Back Slash Charge (Monado animation starts out vertical)

Running options
01 - Shield
~2 - Spot Dodge
~4-5 - Roll
06 - Vision
09 - Dash Grab
10 - Air Slash (all customs too)
10 - Pivot Grab
12+ - Pivoted F-tilt
14+ - Pivoted F-Smash
15 - Dash attack (animation may start out too far in the z axis, may be slower in actuality)
~17 - Jump -> Nair
~18 - Jump -> Fair
~18 - Jump -> Uair (Initial hit)
~24 - Jump -> Bair (Monado's beam not extended, close range)
~26 - Jump -> Bair (Monado's beam extended out behind)
28 - Back Slash Leap
31 - Back Slash/Back Slash Charge (Monado animation starts out vertical)
*Running animation can be cancelled instantly by a Monado Art, allowing for any of the standing/walking options

Aerial options
?? - Double Jump (couldn't find info on this anywhere)
~4 - Air Dodge
06 - Vision
10 - Air Slash (all customs too)
13 - Nair (Monado starts behind you)
14 - Fair (Monado starts above you)
14 - Uair (Initial hit)
18 - Bair (Monado's beam not extended, close range)
22 - Bair (Monado's beam extended out behind)
24 - Uair (Beam comes out)
28 - Back Slash Leap
31 - Back Slash/Back Slash Charge (Monado animation starts out vertical)

 

[Berserker.]

I updated the OP with this thread on my OP

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanical-rhythm-getting-a-feel-for-the-monado-arts.385252/

 

[Davicious]

Does anyone know how arts affect grab breakouts, looking on the OP and couldn't see anything.

I was playing a bunch of glory matches, and i noticed that when i was in shield i could slip out of grabs like butter. however when i switched to buster or smash they get more hits on me, and practically impossible to breakout. this could just be me being inconsistent.

 

[Berserker.]

I don't know if there are any new mechanics for grab breaking in Smash 4, but I'm pretty sure the damage % of the grabbed character still affects the difficulty of grab breaking. The higher your percentage is, the harder it is to break out of grabs. I don't think the arts have an effect on the mechanics of grab breaking

Edit: If you guys want some perspective on Shulk's f-smash, it deals 17-18% damage and comes out as fast as Little Mac's F-smash and Yoshi's F-smash


@ Masonomace

Air slash's damage is not affected by tipping it

 

[LightlyToasted]

There's so much great information here that I am unsure if this has been posted. Shulk has a great deal of cool edge guarding moves, but has anyone tried dash off the edge into a back slash towards the edge? If you do it fast enough the bit of air from the back slash will bring you back to the ledge, and this can cover a great deal of space while also usually getting the backstab on a person recovering form a ledge grab as well. I don't main shulk but it has been a lot of fun to catch people with it. Though I have Sd'd from it quite a bit as well when I was practicing. If you want to do it in speed form you have to be really precise.

 

[meleebrawler]

If you hit with Fair VERY late in the swing (like once it's gone
under his body), they will be launched backwards. You could
get stage spikes this way.

 

[Berserker.]

Same goes for Air slash because it has a weird yet humongous hitbox (I've accidentally KO'd someone while air slashing backwards so that's my guess).

@ Masonomace Also, I removed the beam damage of air slash. It's not affected by tipping

 

[TreK]

I'm confused about what's written about Vision
If the damage is proportional to the hit you've tanked, then what do the 10% and 13% refer to ?

 

[Masonomace]

I'm confused about what's written about Vision
If the damage is proportional to the hit you've tanked, then what do the 10% and 13% refer to ?

The 10% & 13% refer to the base damages of the two version of Vision you use when countering an attack less than the base damage e.g. a fireball or something; 10% is from the sweetspotted attack of regular Vision while the 13% comes from strictly the base damage of the Forwarded Vision counter.

 

[erico9001]

If you hit with Fair VERY late in the swing (like once it's gone
under his body), they will be launched backwards. You could
get stage spikes this way.

I've done this on accident a lot, actually :D

Does anyone know how arts affect grab breakouts, looking on the OP and couldn't see anything.

I was playing a bunch of glory matches, and i noticed that when i was in shield i could slip out of grabs like butter. however when i switched to buster or smash they get more hits on me, and practically impossible to breakout. this could just be me being inconsistent.

It does not affect it, and I tested it just to be sure. However, you take less damage from the opponents' grab pummels. The amount of damage you take while being grabbed does not change the length of time you are grabbed though.

 

[meleebrawler]

I used Vision low in the air while in Monado Speed.
I got the "back" vision and I ended up going pretty far
(about halfway across omega stage).

How far does Dash Vision go normally?

 

[Nammy12]

Also, we don't have Shulk's KO % on all arts. Just mostly Smash art. We'll get to that soon starting with vanilla since jump is one of our KO arts (Although adding ~+15% seems like the idea, we should test it just in case)

If you want I'd be willing to test the %'s later this week.
I'm going to assume Jump and Vanilla kill at the same % and we probably won't need to test buster.
I'll probably test hyper smash as well if I have the time.

 

[Berserker.]

If you want I'd be willing to test the %'s later this week.
I'm going to assume Jump and Vanilla kill at the same % and we probably won't need to test buster.
I'll probably test hyper smash as well if I have the time.

That would be great. Thanks

How far does Dash Vision go normally?

I used the Omega Game and Watch stage to unreliably measure it. ~5 blocks of that stage

 

[TreK]

The 10% & 13% refer to the base damages of the two version of Vision you use when countering an attack less than the base damage e.g. a fireball or something; 10% is from the sweetspotted attack of regular Vision while the 13% comes from strictly the base damage of the Forwarded Vision counter.

Thanks for answering :V
You said the base damage of the projectile, does that mean that jump vision and vanilla vision kill at the same time despite the +22% damage taken debuff ? (most likely yes, just checking)

 

[Berserker.]

Thanks for answering :V
You said the base damage of the projectile, does that mean that jump vision and vanilla vision kill at the same time despite the +22% damage taken debuff ? (most likely yes, just checking)

Yep. Jump has no effect on damage output so they KO at the same %

If you click this link, you'll notice in the videos how fond Ally is of air slash as an attack in general. What do you guys think?

 

[Watchful_Eye]

Glad I found this thread, I just watched some games of ally playing shulk and wanted to ask you how do you use jump outside of edgeguarding and escaping early combos (I often start with jump when I play against Mario or Ness to escape grab combos easier, probably not a new idea). I feel it has potential and it looks great when Ally does it (of course), but it usually does not help me if the enemy is competent. He usually becomes more patient, shields a bit more, stays on the ground. Have you got some concrete hints how to use jump in a neutral game situation and when do you prefer it over speed besides the situations I mentioned?

 

[erico9001]

Yep. Jump has no effect on damage output so they KO at the same %

If you click this link, you'll notice in the videos how fond Ally is of air slash as an attack in general. What do you guys think?

I've been using air slash a lot ever since I went into the combo thread. I fiddled around with it and realized how great it is. Only 10 frames before the hit, decent range, can be turned around easily, can done out of shield, hits airborne opponents, and is a great option for when in air but too low to the ground for any other action.

 

[Masonomace]

Glad I found this thread, I just watched some games of ally playing shulk and wanted to ask you how do you use jump outside of edgeguarding and escaping early combos (I often start with jump when I play against Mario or Ness to escape grab combos easier, probably not a new idea). I feel it has potential and it looks great when Ally does it (of course), but it usually does not help me if the enemy is competent. He usually becomes more patient, shields a bit more, stays on the ground. Have you got some concrete hints how to use jump in a neutral game situation and when do you prefer it over speed besides the situations I mentioned?

For Jump in Neutral, I feel it's all about using platforms to your advantage. it can be pulled off in certain ways given the stage to play on, but I use Jump more often on Battlefield because of the lower level platforms I can land on when I SH > N-air to perfectly be on top of them while N-air is active underneath you & ending in front of you as you're landing. It's a nice arch & is anti-ground potential. After a SH > N-air landing I usually run off, walk off, or SH away to do a drifted N-air so that the N-air hit-box from behind hits them, or I SH & FF away while doing B-air for that mad range poking for example.

Truthfully it seems like Jump was kind of made for Battlefield because every aerial in Shulk's kit will come out & stay active right before landing on the lower level platforms, so options like SH > B-air, SH > F-air, even SH > U-air can definitely make them airdodge, allowing you to capitalize & get the landing punish. You can FH aerials on the top platform but it's not as effective because you're in the air for a little longer, but you can make it work with enough practice for that feel on the stage.

For other stages to make use of Jump, FH > N-air / F-air / B-air / U-air / D-air works great on Kongo Jungle 64 when you're near the ledge area to edge-guard your opponent in case they recover from high to be near the upper platforms above the trees, & you can mess around nicely with the moving platforms there too. Another good stage placement usage for Jump mode is also to be on the very sides of Halberd during the starting stage transition because you can input a dash animation & SH > N-air / F-air / B-air / U-air / D-air while drifting air speed & sliding across the semi-soft platform. What's even better about Halberd is you can do the same thing with SH'ing aerials while being on the 2nd transition being on the ship deck as well.

There's other stages to utilize Jump mode for platforms, but yeah. . .SH > N-air is pretty dope with this kind of strategy.

 

[Watchful_Eye]

Okay, thank you. I indeed did not realize that it is that stage dependent. So you do not use it much on FD/in Glory Mode, right?

 

[Masonomace]

Okay, thank you. I indeed did not realize that it is that stage dependent. So you do not use it much on FD/in Glory Mode, right?

Correct, I don't use Jump as much on FG / FD Omegas because of the lack of other stage elements I could play on, such as platforms moving or not, slants, & slopes. Although Jump helps me with certain character matchups.

 

[Berserker.]

Really late post

pls check edit <3

Is the damage chart correct now?

Also, can you guys try out f-smashing shield Shulk with Bowser when Shulk is at 0% or possibly maybe below 10%. See if it's unsafe on hit. I can't really test this since I'm away from the 3DS atm

 

[FOcast]

Glad I found this thread, I just watched some games of ally playing shulk and wanted to ask you how do you use jump outside of edgeguarding and escaping early combos (I often start with jump when I play against Mario or Ness to escape grab combos easier, probably not a new idea). I feel it has potential and it looks great when Ally does it (of course), but it usually does not help me if the enemy is competent. He usually becomes more patient, shields a bit more, stays on the ground. Have you got some concrete hints how to use jump in a neutral game situation and when do you prefer it over speed besides the situations I mentioned?

If your opponent is shielding and staying on the ground more, that's your cue to use more grabs. I find jump can be useful in this regard as a mindgame: after a few jumping approaches, try simply landing behind them and doing an immediate turnaround grab. If they're expecting to shield a nair, you can often catch them while they're waiting for it to come out.

 

[Nammy12]

Here we are. Vanilla and Jump kill percents (Lightning effects). I removed throws since they didn't seem to be very viable in Vanilla.

As for Speed and Shield: you'll need them to be at a bit higher percents due to damage decreases.
Example: f-smash does 18% with Vanilla and 14% with Speed. Speed will need them to have 4% more to kill so it can match Vanilla kill %'s.
(This is just for f-smash though. I haven't tested other moves.)

All of these were tested on Wii U FD on level 3 CPU's. First from the center of FD and then from their starting positions.
Blastzones on the Wii U versions are smaller compared to the 3DS so you'll need about 5%-10% more on the 3DS version.

Smashes were uncharged, but sweet-spotted.
Like always, there will be plenty of variables in a real match.
Also, I may be off by a couple percents on some moves.

Hyper Smash coming later this week.

Heavyweight:

Middle of FD

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-129%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-113%

Up Smash-104%

Down Smash-127%

Forward Tilt-167%

Air Slash-166%

Back Air-158%

Back Slash (Front)-195%

Back Slash (Back)-121%

Dash Attack-172%

Up Tilt-169%

Edge (starting positions)

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-103%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-91%

Up Smash-104%

Down Smash-98%

Forward Tilt-135%

Air Slash-131%

Back Air-127%

Back Slash (Front)-159%

Back Slash (Back)-96%

Dash Attack-172%

Up Tilt-169%

Mid-heavy:

Middle of FD

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-116%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-104%

Up Smash-98%

Down Smash-114%

Forward Tilt-151%

Air Slash-152%

Back Air-143%

Back Slash (Front)-177%

Back Slash (Back)-109%

Dash Attack-167%

Up Tilt-165%

Edge (starting positions)

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-92%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-81%

Up Smash-98%

Down Smash-89%

Forward Tilt-122%

Air Slash-118%

Back Air-115%

Back Slash (Front)-144%

Back Slash (Back)-87%

Dash Attack-167%

Up Tilt-165%

Midweight:

Middle of FD

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-110%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-99%

Up Smash-92%

Down Smash-109%

Forward Tilt-144%

Air Slash-145%

Back Air-136%

Back Slash (Front)-169%

Back Slash (Back)-103%

Dash Attack-158%

Up Tilt-156%

Edge (starting positions)

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-87%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-77%

Up Smash-92%

Down Smash-84%

Forward Tilt-117%

Air Slash-112%

Back Air-109%

Back Slash (Front)-137%

Back Slash (Back)-82%

Dash Attack-158%

Up Tilt-1156%

Mid-light:

Middle of FD

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-98%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-89%

Up Smash-87%

Down Smash-98%

Forward Tilt-131%

Air Slash-132%

Back Air-124%

Back Slash (Front)-155%

Back Slash (Back)-94%

Dash Attack-151%

Up Tilt-151%

Edge (starting positions)

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-79%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-68%

Up Smash-87%

Down Smash-76%

Forward Tilt-106%

Air Slash-104%

Back Air-100%

Back Slash (Front)-126%

Back Slash (Back)-73%

Dash Attack-151%

Up Tilt-151%

Lightweight:

Middle of FD

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-91%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-80%

Up Smash-69%

Down Smash-92%

Forward Tilt-121%

Air Slash-111%

Back Air-115%

Back Slash (Front)-143%

Back Slash (Back)-86%

Dash Attack-151%

Up Tilt-151%

Edge (starting positions)

Spoiler

Forward Smash (Normal)-72%

Forward Smash (Tilted up)-63%

Up Smash-69%

Down Smash-70%

Forward Tilt-98%

Air Slash-99%

Back Air-92%

Back Slash (Front)-116%

Back Slash (Back)-67%

Dash Attack-151%

Up Tilt-151%

 

[SGJet]

What do you guys think of Edge Pivot Dashing for Shulk?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtMBrKq_iCE

 

[TheHopefulHero]

I want to see how far Shulk can slide with Edge Pivot Dashing in Speed. I want to see Shulk sliding across the stage like a top doing his D-Smash with that.

In all seriousness, it's something I'm curious on. It can give Shulk some horizontal range for a number of his attacks outside of Perfect Pivoting (up-tilt and d-tilt come to mind) and maybe help his CQC game which tends to be where Shulk struggles the most. His grab might have another tool to work with outside of Pivot Grabs.

Time to hit the lab and see how much this helps.