Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[Nammy12]

So I did a bit of testing and found out that Luma gets launched farther if it has more damage.
I don't think Smash makes THAT much of a difference and I think Vaniila should be able to do it fine.
I think that up-tilt into f-smash is a good juggle to get Luma offstage. Vision might also work.
Interesting thing, Luma doesn't get knocked back by a f-tilt if it has less than 5%.

 

[Berserker.]

So I did a bit of testing and found out that Luma gets launched farther if it has more damage.
I don't think Smash makes THAT much of a difference and I think Vaniila should be able to do it fine.
I think that up-tilt into f-smash is a good juggle to get Luma offstage. Vision might also work.
Interesting thing, Luma doesn't get knocked back by a f-tilt if it has less than 5%.

The last tidbit was interesting

About the first note, you're saying that if Luma has lower HP, it will be knocked back even further (Which is something I knew already) or you're saying that vanilla attacks have more knockback on Luma than smash art attacks since it deals more damage? I'm suspecting that you're talking about its HP

Anyway, thanks for testing it

 

[Nammy12]

The last tidbit was interesting

About the first note, you're saying that if Luma has lower HP, it will be knocked back even further (Which is something I knew already) or you're saying that vanilla attacks have more knockback on Luma than smash art attacks since it deals more damage? I'm suspecting that you're talking about its HP

Anyway, thanks for testing it

Smash does increase the knockback but I don't think theres that much of a difference when Luma has almost full HP.
Its a lot more noticeable if Luma has a bit of damage.
Back-slash is an option as well since we can get the back hit on Luma.

 

[Berserker.]

I tested it myself just now to double check. Not much of a difference from what I observed if you use MSmash F-smash on luma. Kinda disappointing but it's fine anyway

Then again, thanks for testing Nammy

 

[ArchmageMC]

Hm... Could Nair/Fair to backslash work then? If Rosalina rolls away, luma gets hit by the boosted backslash, if not, it'll still be knocked a good distance. The aerial is just to weaken it a bit before you launch it so that it goes further. But then you just backslashed and that'll prob be punished...

though to be fair, if Customs are allowed, then Rosalina isn't much of a problem (Or most characters) thanks to that super vision custom. Though if customs are allowed, Hyper Munados might also allow Smash to take out the luma real quick?

I dunno, I don't have problems with Rosalinas as Shulk, he outranges all their aerials pretty easy and shes far too slow to really get back stage control when your knocking her and her luma around. Maybe I'm just fighting bad rosalinas or something.

 

[Berserker.]

Hyper smash really does help in the match up (and several other match ups). I kinda miss hyper arts but I'm unsure about the future of customs at this point. I'll still remain positive and I'll just go with whatever becomes the norm

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I just did a little testing and with Buster Luma can be killed at 0% with:

• About 4 hits of jab1 jab2 and jab3
• 4 ftilts
• 5 dtilts
• 5 utilts
• 3 fsmashes (all the smashes are uncharged)
• 2 dsmashes
• 2 usmashes (although it's nearly impossible to hit with since Luma is usually on the ground and it has like no side hitbox)
• One back hitting Back Slash + fsmash to finish it off
• 3 Air Slashes (lol why)
• Vision varies depending on Luma's attack but Dash Vision is a great way to hit both Rosa & Luma at the same time
• 6 nairs
• 4 fairs
• 4 bairs sweetspotted, 5 sourspotted
• Didn't test uair/dair cuz nobodies gonna try and use those to kill Luma when it's on stage

Not very impressive. So from this it seems like Buster takes a lot more hits than what would be a good way to get rid of Luma. However, only one Smash dtilt against Luma makes it fall into it's vulnerable phase, and if you can hit it off stage during this it's done for. If you can manage this while Rosalina is offstage and her Luma is waiting at the edge for her, it's going to be dead. Like @ Berserker. said, you only weigh less during Smash and not take more damage unlike Buster. Less weight doesn't matter because you'll only be trying to get rid of Luma at lower percents, while trying to stay alive at higher percents.

Verdict: Smash is a very viable option, and everyone should try it against Luma.

 

[Berserker.]

I was thinking of just getting some vanilla hits on luma then switching to Smash for increased knockback. Trying to perform an aerial off d-tilt will be difficult considering that Rosalina can just come in and interrupt you most of the time. Of course, this will be useful if she isn't anywhere nearby

Thanks for the buster numbers, SFLR

 

[Zappdos]

Matchup-dependent, I feel like I get more damage output in jump than Speed out of the gate. If Uthrow uptilt isn't guarented, I'd rather UThrow->Full Hop Nair, because it almost always hits, while you can still follow up with Utilt or a delayed aerial in both forms. Combos are only going to become less reliable as the meta evolves and people get better, , and jump seems to get more two hit chains than speed a lot of the time, and jump has what, tied for second highest damage output?

Not to mention it guarentees you have have Speed when you want to be aggressive at high damage vs low damage opponent, where it's the safest option while still dealing damage.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

huh when did @ Berserker. become a mod?? cool beans

Is Back Slash useful for anything else besides lazy punishes? Is there a setup to get a guaranteed back-facing slash?

 

[meleebrawler]

huh when did @ Berserker. become a mod?? cool beans

Is Back Slash useful for anything else besides lazy punishes? Is there a setup to get a guaranteed back-facing slash?

Nope, you gotta get a teammate to draw aggro from the enemy
so that they don't turn to face you all the time.

And maybe use Shadow Eye.

 

[adom4]

huh when did @ Berserker. become a mod?? cool beans

Is Back Slash useful for anything else besides lazy punishes? Is there a setup to get a guaranteed back-facing slash?

I think back throw to back slash in buster is guaranteed at certain percantages if they don't tech the throw, i mostly use back slash for mix ups.

Nope, you gotta get a teammate to draw aggro from the enemy
so that they don't turn to face you all the time.

And maybe use Shadow Eye.

Damn now i really wish Dunban would've been playable

 

[PokemonyeWest]

I definitely didn't play Xenoblade oops. Waiting for that 3DS port

 

[MarioFireRed]

I really only use Back Slash when I feel I can get away with it rather than a SH Fair when avoiding projectiles at certain %'s.

Also back throw SH back slash is a nice follow-up. Just be wary of where you think they will tech the landing and plan how you jump beforehand.

 

[Opana]

It's possible to roll while maintaining the Monado Arts shuffle

 

[Masonomace]

It's possible to roll while maintaining the Monado Arts shuffle

Eggcelent, multi-tasking MArts by shuffling them, meanwhile we can roll around them & could make some use out of the small invincibility frame window MArts have when they self-activate. I see potential from that. I can't mess with it now, but I can probably see Spot-dodging + MArt shuffling do-able too, but we definitely can't airdodge + MArt shuffling.

 

[Opana]

I don't think spot dodging is possible, but if you land during the air dodge soon enough you can still shuffle. Same with nair

 

[AlvisCPU]

-it does regenerate over time (I can't think of a specific example, but I'm just certain of it).
-I'm not sure, but I usually think of it as a drop of 1/4 each time it is used. It still decreases when nobody hits it.
-For sweetspots and stuff:
Probably easier to read if you follow the link for the quote.
-Under Monado Smash you don't want to become too predictable. Smash Attacks are still as unsafe as always- possibly more unsafe since Monado Smash does not send people who are shielded as far away. Personally, I avoid Smash attacks while in Monado Smash and aim more for side tilts and BAirs. It's also a mode I will go to for trying to get people with FAirs offstage. However, I don't think Monado Smash is as good as I used to see it.
-Most people here would recommend using Buster defensively, but I'm not exactly sure why. It's preference I guess. Maybe you should try it defensively then.
-Jump is viable offensively. Go high, dive low while attacking. You can mix it up every once in a while and land without an aerial and do a grab since they are shielding- expecting an aerial. The art helps with follow ups like Dtilt -> Fair at higher percents. Offstage attacks take practice to get used to. You should sometimes go for people recovering low by running off the stage though- maybe you're not doing this?

Thanks
So from reading the OP (which I should've done, haha) the Tipper attacks are just nair and Back Slash?
And yeah, I need to run off the stage more to edgeguard, I SH out of habit which usually puts me just out of range. I think it's a mix of that, needing to read air dodges, and Jump inexperience. With Jump on, I don't always move in the way I expected to and end up completely out of range for any kind of hit. Fighting with it would probably get me used to the movement.

 

[kenniky]

Everyone seems to scream "OP" every time they see Power Vision.

Nobody seems to see the drawbacks: the active frames become ridiculously
short after the first use, meaning you can't reliably escape trouble
like with the default. Short matches definitely help mask this weakness,
since what does great deterioration matter when your opponent has no lives left.
The less stocks in a game, the better Power Vision becomes as an option.

Answer me this: Did you ever land another one after the initial use?

I actually did land two in that one stock, the second one was what killed him

Granted it was a CPU but hey ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[ArchmageMC]

Hyper smash really does help in the match up (and several other match ups). I kinda miss hyper arts but I'm unsure about the future of customs at this point. I'll still remain positive and I'll just go with whatever becomes the norm

Basically from what I understand, until tourny organizers can have a save file with all customs unlocked and/or nintendo just makes all customs unlocked out of the gate, they'll be banned just for sake of how long it takes to unlock all the customs.

Mii/Paultina might be exceptions to this rule as their customs are unlocked automatically, and for paultina, shes sorta crap with her basic specials.

 

[Berserker.]

Basically from what I understand, until tourny organizers can have a save file with all customs unlocked and/or nintendo just makes all customs unlocked out of the gate, they'll be banned just for sake of how long it takes to unlock all the customs.

Mii/Paultina might be exceptions to this rule as their customs are unlocked automatically, and for paultina, shes sorta crap with her basic specials.

For now, it's best to practice with the default moveset. Just to be safe

Testing out how useful speed pivot dash attack is

 

[SGJet]

What do you guys think about ledge trumping with Shulk? Can we get any followups off of it?

 

[MarioFireRed]

If you position yourself right you can get a Bair to knock the opponent away from the edge or outright kill them in the horizontal blast zones

 

[SGJet]

If you position yourself right you can get a Bair to knock the opponent away from the edge or outright kill them in the horizontal blast zones

Bair after ledge trump?

 

[FlareHabanero]

Bair after ledge trump?

It's possible, though it's tricky since the hitbox is narrow and there is a delay.

It's like a more awkward version of Ike's back aerial shenanigans in a sense.

 

[Masonomace]

Ledge-trumping feels lackluster to me now though. People just get-up too fast when they ledge-climb up & avoid the trump. We'd have to time ledge-grabbing immediately after they make contact with it while they're auto-snapping the ledge. Other than that, I don't get them often. . .

Depending on the character's trump arc when they're forced backwards, Jump Speed Shield or Smash could help, but I'm spewing Arts because I just don't get trumps anymore. =/

 

[Opana]

I prefer letting go of the ledge to bair if I have to utilize the ledge. Also, works with Ganon often and it may with Shulk, after a trump I ledge hop into a bair and intercept a jump.

I'd just like to say stringing dthrow-fair maybe twice is a great gimp set up as it often strings to more offstage fairs vs. at least heavies.

I FORESEE AN EDIT:

I can confirm it is not only possible to maintain the art shuffle after a roll, but his spot dodge as well.

 

[Masonomace]

I was actually putting some use into a interesting concept we discussed shortly about, involving our floor options with Buster on. When the opponent rushed to my floor landing & shielded, I was able to break their shield with both hits of Shulk's Front Floor Attack in mid-match & got a sweet punish with Buster F-smash Fullcharged, dealing 36% in total.

So after that I went into training mode to lab this up, & learned that:

• Buster Shulk's Ledge Attack barely deals more shield damage aka not worth the effort. Can still be punished
• Buster Shulk's Front Floor Attack indeed breaks shield when both hits connect on-block. The back hit seems to decide it all
• Buster Shulk's Front Trip Attack at relatively close range did slightly increase shield damage, but not enough to make it viable. Can still be punished

I did not attempt only hitting with the back-hitting slash from Back Floor Attack or Back Trip Attack, because sleep. I also didn't mess with DBuster or HBuster, but if I had to guess, HBuster Shulk's Front or Back Floor Attack probably destroys an entire shield with just one hit.

 

[Opana]

Alright, two interesting bits here:

You can turn around from a Mart, which I'm sure you know. However, it's possible to turn around by pressing back off the ledge as it activates, meaning you could potentially trump them and retaliate with a fair, or just surprise a foe with said fair.

I'm also sure you know bthrow makes their back face us. I know there's not enough time to back slash, but it makes a Shulkcide much more effective should it be attempted.

 

[adom4]

Alright, two interesting bits here:

You can turn around from a Mart, which I'm sure you know. However, it's possible to turn around by pressing back off the ledge as it activates, meaning you could potentially trump them and retaliate with a fair, or just surprise a foe with said fair.

I'm also sure you know bthrow makes their back face us. I know there's not enough time to back slash, but it makes a Shulkcide much more effective should it be attempted.

Actually it is possible in certain percents with buster on, but only if they don't tech the throw.

 

[erico9001]

I need to get back to studying for my 2 exams tomorrow, so not testing anything. Just an idea. What about reversed air slash for ledge trumps?

 

[Berserker.]

Speed dash dancing to dash attack is VERY interesting. Although going for a boost pivot grab or a dash grab in general is a lot more optimal, I seem to keep forgetting that dash attack has a lot of range for just being a dash attack. I don't throw this out a lot though because dash attack still comes out pretty late. I still prefer going for the grab but this is something nifty to know

I see this as just another way of punishing players. Fake an approach then once they make a mistake, charge at them with a dash attack in case you're too far to grab them

Also, I just noticed... I don't see the frame data on the OP.....
Whatever, I'll just put it on the 3rd OP

Edit: Silly me

Edit: Added. I'll also add this in the post (http://smashboards.com/threads/shulk-smash-mode-k-o-percents.381974)

 

[Opana]

I need to get back to studying for my 2 exams tomorrow, so not testing anything. Just an idea. What about reversed air slash for ledge trumps?

Sorry to be a bit off topic but your sig is amazing.

 

[Masonomace]

Speed dash attack pivots are VERY interesting. Although going for a boost pivot grab or a dash grab in general is a lot more optimal, I seem to keep forgetting that dash attack has a lot of range for just being a dash attack. I don't throw this out a lot though because dash attack still comes out pretty late. I still prefer going for the grab but this is something nifty to know

I see pivot dash attack as just another way of punishing players. Fake an approach then once they make a mistake, charge at them with a dash attack in case you're too far for to grab them

Also, I just noticed... I don't see the frame data on the OP..... Whatever, I'll just put it on the 3rd OP

Edit: Added. I'll also add this in the post (http://smashboards.com/threads/shulk-smash-mode-k-o-percents.381974)

Dash attack pivots is when you're dashing / running & put analog stick to neutral & input A or C-stick down to do a late Dash Attack, right. . .? One tactic that comes to mind is DACG (Dash Attack Canceled Grab), which is not bad in Speed mode either.

I also wasn't aware that there was any Shulk frame data afa Dantarion's MasterCore goes, albeit I knew of Villager Lucario & Marth having some frame data on the boards already, I could put it there to save ya trouble

EDIT: Nvm you have it down already, nice!

 

[PokemonyeWest]

back throw into Back Slash with Buster activated is so good.

I've been improving my game a lot with Shulk thanks to everyone who posts regularly on these boards. Thanks you Shulk Timers.

Not sure if it's been discussed, but standard jab combo doesn't work on Jigglypuff. Last hit whiffs, Jiggs can punish with a Rest. Be wary.

 

[Masonomace]

Not sure if it's been discussed, but standard jab combo doesn't work on Jigglypuff. Last hit whiffs, Jiggs can punish with a Rest. Be wary.

I think to alleviate this we have to have Buster active (or maybe every MArt can work. . .?), & delay our Jab-3, or delay our entire Jab combo by not mashing A all the way through. If you've touched up on Lucario you'll know his Jab combo is. . .not the best, but that can be solved with delaying the jabs in-between, like we can with Shulk.

Although it doesn't matter if Jiggs is already on the ground & we hold A to rapid Jab-1 since she can just crouch under it. I believe our Jab-3 will hit a crouched Jiggs but there's little opportunities for that to happen.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

I think to alleviate this we have to have Buster active (or maybe every MArt can work. . .?), & delay our Jab-3, or delay our entire Jab combo by not mashing A all the way through. If you've touched up on Lucario you'll know his Jab combo is. . .not the best, but that can be solved with delaying the jabs in-between, like we can with Shulk.

Just tested it, you're right. Delaying the jab will always result in full connection. MArt's not necessary. Won't work with Smash active, however.

EDIT: Though there's a big hole between jab2 and jab3 a prudent player could air dodge through, using Smash can work and KO's Jiggs at 114% to boot

 

[Masonomace]

Also I updated the OP to make it a lot easier to get to the 1st 2nd & 3rd OP without having to scroll too much.

A topic I'd like to discuss is utilizing Speed as a recovery option. We know Jump & we love it, but Speed is our #2 mobility MArt on-stage or off-stage. The jump height reduction isn't that bad, & frankly when Jump's on cooldown for 10 seconds, there can be an alternate way of edge-guarding if we use Speed's aerial speed to horizontally edge-guard. Speed also doesn't increase falling speed so I feel it would be a better MArt for horizontally recovering from high or mid - mid-low. Thoughts?

 

[PokemonyeWest]

I almost exclusively use Speed when edge-guarding. I only use Jump when the opponent is high above me, or if I launched them into the top corner of the screen. Using Speed to run off the stage and nab a nair/fair/bair has won me countless matches. The reduction in jump height is only really evident when trying to recover with an Air Slash and falling just short of the ledge.

 

[Masonomace]

I dig it. The times I'm sent flying off-stage in Shield mode with or without Crouch Canceling the hit, I'll mash B during hit-stun to cancel Shield ASAP & cycle to Speed if I'm launched high to the corner, in order to drift towards the stage to the point I'm above the stage. I skip & dip from the entire edge-guarding process unto me & worry about landing on the stage. In this case I think about opting to deactivate Speed & cycle straight to Jump to FF much faster to get to the ground with a retreating B-air or F-air depending on which direction I'm facing. This is just an example as I won't literally use up 2 mobility MArts in less than 4 seconds, that's silly unless it's HMArts or something. I don't often use Speed as much, so I implement Speed this way in order to prevent myself being exposed with Jump's decreased damage defense & lighter weight.

Now let's say I'm in Shield mode or something & crouch cancel an attack that launches me horizontally (Fox D-smash). I'd proceed with the same process: mash B to deactivate Shield, or if no MArt is active I mash B to cycle to Speed, & instantly DoubleJump almost grabbing the ledge if not needing to AS. The reason I'm starting to avoid using Jump (unless I absolutely need to use Jump for edge-guarding / gimping / recovering) is because ledge-jumping with Jump mode does nothing for it, but not only that, just ledge-climbing onto the stage & rolling or jumping gets stuffed & I'm back to ledge-play. Speed mode could bypass all this by simply ledge-climbing & running past the danger to get to center stage. After that, the match resets & becomes Neutral again.

Because of getting the Art I want quicker, I don't have to worry of deactivating & cycling to get to Jump or Speed when I'm off-stage by the time hit-stun finishes.