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Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

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Not sure about speed vs shield being speed's favor. You have to remember that speed does 0.8 damage of the usual while shield reduces damage taken by 33% so that's something important to note. Then again, Shulk is combo fodder to the max in shield mode so it may not matter either way

I'm inclined to say that buster beats out shield solely because buster is more mobile. By more mobile, I meant shield's mobility is ****. Then again, buster attacks deal ~1% damage less than vanilla damage against shield Shulk which is a heavy nerf from the original buster damage

@ TheHopefulHero TheHopefulHero I'll help in testing maybe tomorrow. I'll also try tinkering around with Shulk's Monado speed if there's any cool **** to do with it
 
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TheHopefulHero

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@ TheHopefulHero TheHopefulHero I'll help in testing maybe tomorrow. I'll also try tinkering around with Shulk's Monado speed if there's any cool **** to do with it[/quote]

Okay, glad to hear that. I only three things that are possible with Speed right now:
1) D-Throw -> Dash-Jump -> F-Air (Deals 10%), works until 50%
- A small follow up after a throw when in speed. Not a lot of damage, but it's a good choice for pivot-grabs.

2) FF N-Air -> D-Air. (Works best around 45% - 55%)
- This requires a small bit of timing, but if done correctly, you can combo into Shulk's spike and still make it back to the air.

3) F-Air -> A-Combo (Jab)
- Very strict and tight, but it can work.
 

erico9001

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I'm in the lab right now, does anyone need me to test anything out?
Can you test for whether MSmash Shulk -> MShield Shulk's knockback is greater than, less than, or equal to Vanilla Shulk -> Vanilla Shulk?
 

kenniky

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Just gonna say that I used Power Vision for the first time today and that thing is BROKEN. I KO'd a Fox at like 63% damage. Ridiculous.

Also, I messed around with BSC today. B-throw to BSC seems to work nicely at lower %s. I was playing a CPU though so idk how well that would work against humans :\
 

SGJet

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Can you test for whether MSmash Shulk -> MShield Shulk's knockback is greater than, less than, or equal to Vanilla Shulk -> Vanilla Shulk?
I can report confidently that Vanilla Shulk -> Vanilla Shulk has much more knockback than MSmash -> MShield.
 

Masonomace

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Can you test for whether MSmash Shulk -> MShield Shulk's knockback is greater than, less than, or equal to Vanilla Shulk -> Vanilla Shulk?
I can report confidently that Vanilla Shulk -> Vanilla Shulk has much more knockback than MSmash -> MShield.
As for this kind of testing, factor in Shulk crouching just before getting hit as well. A fellow bronado from the skype group was telling me that Shulk takes less knockback from attacks by crouching the hit aka Crouch Canceling.

This ideally helps Shield the most, but this is a worldwide help to all of the MArts, including Vanilla Shulk ofc.

If you want some extreme convincing, he was telling me that without crouch canceling, Shield Shulk was dying to Home-Run Bat; when Shulk was crouching just before the hit, he was surviving with just regular Shield mode.
 
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TheHopefulHero

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Whoa... I didn't think that was possible. Was Shulk at the middle of the stage or was he at the one ends of the stage? Either way, that's impressive.
 

TheHopefulHero

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Also, didn't mean to double post, but I've got some more results from the lab. This time, I focused on a Speed Art combo I know:
D-Throw -> Dash -> F-Air. It still needs testing (mainly against the 2nd - 4th row of fighters on the CSS), but I thought I should share what I have now.

Speed: D-Throw -> Dash -> F-Air (Deals around 10 - 11%)

General Things about this combo:
1) Sets up for one of my favorite combos with Shulk: (Jump Art) FF N-Air -> F-Air -> Fair -> Fair (3 if you’re lucky and can KO around 65%)

2) A near universal combo. Works against the entire cast, with some noticeable traits.
- Combo tends to drop around 50% - 60% for a majority of the cast.
- You’re going to love heavy-weights with this combo, and hate floaty light-weights as a
side effect of this combo. (Very effective on Bowser, but not so much on Kirby…)

3) As long as you got room to run, you can land this combo until you hit the cap.
- And thanks to pivot-grabs, we don’t have to worry about foes lingering by the edge to stop this combo early.

4) Another reason to start with Speed in some match-ups. (Captain Falcon in particular)
5) It’s possible to land this if the foe goes off-stage, but it’s preferable to keep the foe on-stage at all times. (Some characters can get out o this combo early if they go off-stage, which I’ll try to keep track of and note down)
- Pivot-grabs are your friends here.

6) DI can screw us over with this combo, especially if you launch off-stage with D-Throw. So take these numbers as something to consider while Speed Art is active.

With that out of the way, let's look at the numbers! (Will try to update with the rest soon)

Mario (10% -60%)
Luigi (10% - 50%) -Luigi is someone who loves to drop out combos. He might be the hardest person to land this on besides floaty light-weights since he’s so weird about it….

Peach(15% - 60%) -Don’t launch Peach off-stage with D-throw if she’s at 50%
Bowser (10% - 70%) - You’re going to love doing this to heavy-weights.
Yoshi (10% - 60%) -Launching Yoshi off-stage with D-throw is a no-no at 60%
Rosalina (10% -50%) - Combo starts to get tougher to land at 40% (Off-stage or not)
Bowser Jr. (10% - 60%) - Can’t combo with F-Air if Jr. goes off-stage with D-Throw at 40%
Wario (0% - 70%) - Wario doesn’t like this combo at all! Admitidly, getting this at 0% is tough, and might only be possible if Wario get’s launched off-stage.

Mr. Game & Watch (10% - 55%) - Can’t connect this if Game & Watch goes off-stage at 45%. You’ll barely make it at 55%.
Kirby (10% - 40%) - Floaty light-weights are annoying to land this combo with. Not only that, but they can escape this relatively early.
Jigglypuff (10% - 40%) - Shouldn’t have to say it, but floaty light-weights love to mess with combos.
Duck Hunt (10% - 50%)
Ness (15% - 55%) - Short guys are evil to this combo,but at least it works here as opposed to the Jump and Buster combos berserker01 & I tested earlier.
- For reference:
(Jump Art) FF N-Air -> U-Tilt -> Air-Slash (Deals around 25%)
(Buster Art) D-Throw -> D-Tilt (Deals around 19%)


Captain Falcon (10% -70%) - Speed might not be such a bad idea in this match-up…
Villager (15% - 55%)
Olimar (15% -50%)
Wii Fit Trainer (15% - 50%) - For a tall character, the trainer can get out of this early.
Dr. Mario (15% - 65%) - Slight difference compared to Mario, but other than that, it’s the same thing.
Dark Pit (10% - 70%)
Lucina (10% - 70%)
Vanilla Shulk (10% - 50%) - Can only report Vanilla results right now. Will try to update with other arts when I get the means to do so.
Pac-Man (10% - 60%)
MegaMan (10% -50%)
Sonic (10% - 55%)

That's all I've got at the moment. Will try to post the full data soon. I appreciate anyone who'd like to help out with the data process.
 
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Masonomace

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Whoa... I didn't think that was possible. Was Shulk at the middle of the stage or was he at the one ends of the stage? Either way, that's impressive.
Mostly the center of FD. It varied because Home-Run Bat has a tipper hit that deals more knockback than just standing next to someone & hitting them. In the middle of FD in Training mode at 0%, Home-Run Bat at close range doesn't KO Shield Shulk if you have good DI + Crouching right before being hit, but when using the Tipper portion of the Home-Run Bat against Shield Shulk, Shulk dies. This time the same testing conditions, except when using HShield, Shulk can survive a Home-Run Bat non-tipped when at the ledge area if you crouch cancel / good DI. It's very extreme & personally I want to take this in the lab after talking about it when I can.

EDIT: When I can I'll contribute to the Shield vs Smash knockback comparisons in addition to this. I plan to do some extensive in-depth testing with Shield mode entirely including DShield & HShield when I get the game.
 
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N-air -> U-tilt -> Air slash

Marth at 18-20(21-29)30-33%
Kirby- Cannot be done
Lucario at 20-21(23-33%) ~22% air slash 1st hit won't be counted
Sonic- Cannot be done
Rosalina- Cannot be done
Jigglypuff- Cannot be done
 

Masonomace

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So I was messing with Shulk foxtrotting with & without MArts, & I'm very impressed with Speed foxtrotting. I didn't measure with split timer, but Speed's foxtrotting felt almost as fast as Speed running, & I was slightly interested when I watched this video.
 
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ChivalRuse

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Yooo even without the Monado, Shulk's bair has mad range and KO power. Shulk is one of the most underrated characters right now (maybe because his recovery is so-so, but he's pretty solid in all other departments - his range is boss - dat nair hitbox :shades:).
 
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TheHopefulHero

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So I was messing with Shulk foxtrotting with & without MArts, & I'm very impressed with Speed foxtrotting. I didn't measure with split timer, but Speed's foxtrotting felt almost as fast as Speed running, & I was slightly interested when I watched this video.
I love Foxtrotting too, and that it is a very nice find (and now I have another reason to fear the Little Mac match-up...). The only problem I have with Foxtrotting is that you can't shield out of it, so you have to commit to the trot. But, being able to jump out of it is just as nice.

Edit: Forgot to add this early, but back-slashing during a foxtrot stops all momentum. Maybe something to fake someone out?
 
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Masonomace

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Also for another educational notion:

Mashing B during a character's grab > throw helps de-activate the MArt much faster than you would had you not pressed B at all during the grab > throw. It also helps even more if per-say you set one of your D-pad directions to Specials, then mash that D-pad direction on top of pressing the B button as well. This universally saves Shield & Buster from being combo'd hard on, & Jump if you feel their U-air they'll throw out is a KO move & thus you'd de-activate so much sooner, potentially saving your stock.

Try this out guys, it does wonders for my Shield-play if any case I get grabbed.
I love Foxtrotting too, and that it is a very nice find (and now I have another reason to fear the Little Mac match-up...). The only problem I have with Foxtrotting is that you can't shield out of it, so you have to commit to the trot. But, being able to jump out of it is just as nice.
Yeah I didn't put much more game-play effort into Speed's foxtrot because I was touching up on other things, such as the portion of text above me.:p A Speeding foxtrot > Dash-dance > Pivot Grab feels like a mind-game to the max.
 

TheHopefulHero

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Can't shield out of it? What are you talking about lol. You can always shield out of a dash ...
Might be just me then. But I can't seem to do it with a fox-trot. I know you can shield-cancel with a normal dash ( which makes approaching with Speed even better), so I might be screwing it up with Fox-troting.

@ Masonomace Masonomace I was wondering if that was possible. Now to put it in practice.

Edit: Oh hey, my thing up-dated. I'm no longer a Smash Rookie, and have promoted to Smash Cadet. (No idea what that means, but I like it.)
 
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Masonomace

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I don't think you can cancel the foxtrot by shielding. I can be wrong but foxtrot's entire animation can't be canceled with shield. You can dash-cancel with shield but not the foxtrot purely.

EDIT: I can also be wrong here, but we can grab, dash attack, pivot smash, stutterstep smash, hyphen smash, & jump out of foxtrot, but cannot shield, spot-dodge, or dodge roll.
 
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TheHopefulHero

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I don't think you can cancel the foxtrot by shielding. I can be wrong but foxtrot's entire animation can't be canceled with shield. You can dash-cancel with shield but not the foxtrot purely.

EDIT: I can also be wrong here, but we can grab, dash attack, pivot smash, stutterstep smash, hyphen smash, & jump out of foxtrot, but cannot shield, spot-dodge, or dodge roll.
That's what I've found regarding fox-trot, but again, I don't know if I'm late on Shielding or not. (I think the dodge rolling might be the same timing as normal.)
 

ChivalRuse

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Foxtrotting, by definition, is simply dashing and then releasing all inputs from the analog stick, so that the dash stops itself automatically. You can input a dash and then shield before this animation or after. Regardless of which you choose, the time that it takes to stop the dash is like 10 frames, so it doesn't make a huge difference.
 

Masonomace

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True, the difference is small so it's no shweat. In any case, I did a few more off-topic tests in the lab for 4 minutes & confirmed for myself that Mr. Saturn thrown at our Shield mode's bubble shield doesn't break it. Which means, we have something to defensively combat versus Peach.:shades:

Reliable shield<3
 

ChivalRuse

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I'd say Shield's buffing of your shield has more of an impact on a matchup like Lucina or Marth who can actually attempt to break your shield at any time, rather than Peach who needs to pull a Saturn.
 
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Masonomace

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For sure, the more constant shield-breaking threats like Lucina Marth JIgglypuff & Samus makes Shield mode's bubble shield more of an impact in those MatchUps. Given that certain situation that Peach does pull out a Mr. Saturn however, it breaks Vanilla's entire shield if even Z-dropped on you, which is more of a threat, but again more situational.
 
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FlareHabanero

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Got to also remember about the perfect shield too, which reduces the shield damage more. It's especially important in Shield since Shulk moves slower then a snail running through tar and being able to react quickly is very important.
 
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Masonomace

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Shield mode powershielding > buffered Dash Attack & getting the KO is highlights video material tbh.

EDIT: Btw Shield mode's foxtrot is lols. Shield's foxtrot speed eyeballed seemed kind of the same speed as running, but hilarious. And Back Slash augmented with HBuster hitting the back of a bubble shield instantly breaks it. ****ing scary.
 
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SGJet

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Shield mode powershielding > buffered Dash Attack & getting the KO is highlights video material tbh.

EDIT: Btw Shield mode's foxtrot is lols. Shield's foxtrot speed eyeballed seemed kind of the same speed as running, but hilarious. And Back Slash augmented with HBuster hitting the back of a bubble shield instantly breaks it. ****ing scary.
What percent does the opponent have to be for the buffered Dash Attack to get the kill?
 

Masonomace

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What percent does the opponent have to be for the buffered Dash Attack to get the kill?
I'm not sure because I only tested stuff for like 5 minutes. But while everyone is doing combos for Speed & Buster, I'll hopefully be doing a ton of lab testing about Shield DShield & HShield, including KO percentages & the shield strength vs shield-breaking attacks & a lot more things.
 
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TheHopefulHero

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Hey guys, I'm back with some more info regarding info D-Throw -> F-Air while Speed Art is equipped. This time, I got through the entire cast regarding this combo, and I'll put the info right here. Please note that this is in Default Monado Arts, so I can only imagine what would happen in Hyper Speed. Anyway here's the list again, this time with the entire cast.

Speed: D-Throw -> Dash -> F-Air (Deals around 10 - 11%)

General Things about this combo:

1) Can set for other combos with Shulk (Art or no Art equiped). For Example: (Jump Art) FF N-Air -> F-Air -> Fair (Can chain 3 F-Airs depending on position and can KO around 75%)

2) A near universal combo. Works against the entire cast, with some noticeable traits.
- Combo tends to drop around 50% - 60% for a majority of the cast.
- You’re going to love heavy-weights with this combo, and hate floaty light-weights as a
side effect of this combo. (Very effective on Bowser, but not so much on Kirby…)

- Wario, Samus, and Rob are the only 3 who are prone to this combo at 0%.
- Kirby, Fox, and Jigglypuff are the only 3 who can get out of this combo early.

3) As long as you got room to run, you can land this combo until you hit the cap.
- And thanks to pivot-grabs, we don’t have to worry about foes lingering by the edge to stop this combo early.

4) Another reason to start with Speed in some match-ups. (Captian Falcon and King Dedede in particular)
5) It’s possible to land this if the foe goes off-stage, but it’s preferable to keep the foe on-stage at all times.
- (Some characters can get out o this combo early if they go off-stage, which I’ll try to keep track of and note down)
- Pivot-grabs are your friends here.

6) DI can screw us over with this combo, especially if you launch off-stage with D-Throw and they’re at a high percent. So take these numbers as something to consider while Speed Art is active.

Now with all that disclaimers away, let’s look at the numbers:

Mario (10% -60%)
Luigi (10% - 50%) -Luigi is someone who loves to drop out combos. He might be the hardest person to land this on besides floaty light-weights since he’s so weird about it….

Peach(15% - 60%) -Don’t launch Peach off-stage with D-throw if she’s at 50%
Bowser (10% - 70%) - You’re going to love doing this to heavy-weights.
Yoshi (10% - 60%) -Launching Yoshi off-stage with D-throw is a no-no at 60%
Rosalina (10% -50%) - Combo starts to get tougher to land at 40% (Off-stage or not)
Bowser Jr. (10% - 60%) - Can’t combo with F-Air if Jr. goes off-stage with D-Throw 40%
Wario (0% - 70%) - Wario doesn’t like this combo at all! Admitidly, getting this at 0% is tough, and might only be possible if Wario get’s launched off-stage.

Mr. Game & Watch (10% - 55%) - Can’t connect this if Game & Watch goes off-stage at 45%. You’ll barely make it at 55%.
Donkey Kong (10%- 70%)
Diddy Kong (10% - 50%) - Diddy is hard to hit with this combo… You have much easier time launching Diddy off-stage with D-throw.
Link (10% - 60%) - Gets tougher to hit off-stage around 55%
Zelda (10% - 55%)
Sheik (10% - 50%)
Gannondorf (10% - 55%) - You may have to do a full hop in order to get hit Gannon with F-air at 50%+
Toon Link (10% - 50%) - Off-stage cap is 45%
Samus (0% - 55%) - Yep, another person we can do this right off that bat.
ZSS (0% - 65%) - The DI is strong with this one. Off-Stage cap is around 45%.
Pit (10% - 70%) - It gets harder to land this at 60%. Maybe due to DI?
Palutena (10% - 50%)
Marth (10% - 70%) - Considering how Marth likes to space things out too, this is a nice reward for getting past his range with Speed. (Can’t land if Marth goes off-stage at 55%)

Ike (10% - 70%) - Get’s real tricky at higher percentages. (Particularly around 60%)
Robin ( 10% -70%) - 55% is the limit if D-throw knocks Robin off-stage.

- Fire Emblem Characters don't like to be thrown do they?

Kriby (10% - 40%) - If there’s one thing to say here, it’s that floaty-lightweights are terrible to do this with.
King Dedede (10% - 90% (!)) - Dedede starts resisting at around 70%, but it’s still do-able.
Meta Knight (15% - 65%) - I find this easier if you launch Meta Knight off-stage with D-Throw.
Little Mac (15% - 65%) - Little Mac’s size works to his advantage here. It’s pretty hard to land this combo with him. (Off-Stage limit is 45%)

Fox (20% - 40%) - Very short range to work with here. Fox has the same problem Little Mac has with this combo. (You can do this starting at 10%, but it’s so inconsistent, that I didn’t include it in the main data.)

Falco (10% - 70%) - Off-Stage limit is 50%
Pikachu (15% - 50%) - Off-Stage limit is 40%
Charizard (15% - 20% & 30%-60%) - Off-Stage limit is 50% (Very strict and can’t connect at 25% for some reason…
Lucario (15% - 60%)
Jigglypuff (10% - 40%) - Shouldn’t have to say it, but floaty light-weights love to mess with combos.
Greninja (15% - 55%)
Duck Hunt (10% - 50%)
Rob ( 0% - 65%) - Rob continues to be prone to combos… It’s something to work with considering how he’s got some good keep-away tactics. (And his great D-Smash)


Ness (15% - 55%) - Short guys are evil to this combo,but at least it works here as opposed to the Jump and Buster combos berserker01 & I tested earlier.

- For reference:
(Jump Art) FF N-Air -> U-Tilt -> Air-Slash (Deals around 25%)
(Buster Art) D-Throw -> D-Tilt (Deals around 19%)
- Give these two combos a shot, I’ve posted some data in this thread in case you’re interested.


Capitan Falcon (10% -70%) - Speed might not be such a bad idea in this match-up…
Villager (15% - 55%)
Olimar (15% -50%)
Wii Fit Trainer (15% - 50%) - For a tall character, the trainer can get out of this early.
Dr. Mario (15% - 65%) \
Dark Pit (10% - 70%) - The clones are exactly like their counterparts with this combo...
Lucina (10% - 70%) /
Vanilla Shulk (10% - 50%) - Can only report Vanilla results right now. Will try to update with other arts when I get the means to do so.
Pac-Man (10% - 60%)
MegaMan (10% -50%)
Sonic (10% - 55%)

That's all I got. Hope this helps out somehow.
 
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FlareHabanero

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I can help with any Shield related questions.

Random tidbit, but with Shield the shield breaks when 10-11 seconds are held. With Hyper Monado Arts it's estimated to be 13-14 seconds, however due the art deactivating prematurely in practice it ends up being 10 seconds. For reference, a typical character can hold the shield up for 7-8 seconds before it breaks.
 
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SGJet

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I'm not sure because I only tested stuff for like 5 minutes. But while everyone is doing combos for Speed & Buster, I'll hopefully be doing a ton of lab testing about Shield DShield & HShield, including KO percentages & the shield strength vs shield-breaking attacks & a lot more things.
Lemme know if you need any help with testing
 

erico9001

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I don't think you can cancel the foxtrot by shielding. I can be wrong but foxtrot's entire animation can't be canceled with shield. You can dash-cancel with shield but not the foxtrot purely.

EDIT: I can also be wrong here, but we can grab, dash attack, pivot smash, stutterstep smash, hyphen smash, & jump out of foxtrot, but cannot shield, spot-dodge, or dodge roll.
To shield out of your fox trot movement, input for a shield without letting go of the joystick - but if you press shield too early following the dash you will forward roll.
I can help with any Shield related questions.

Random tidbit, but with Shield the shield breaks when 10-11 seconds are held. With Hyper Monado Arts it's estimated to be 13-14 seconds, however due the art deactivating prematurely in practice it ends up being 10 seconds. For reference, a typical character can hold the shield up for 7-8 seconds before it breaks.
How's Shield Shulk's shield hold up against Marth/Lucina's Shield Breaker?
EDIT: Btw Shield mode's foxtrot is lols. Shield's foxtrot speed eyeballed seemed kind of the same speed as running, but hilarious.
Oh- this is terrific.
-
By the way everyone, the stickied match-ups thread is now open.
 
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SGJet

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Some people have been observing my Shulk and wondering if it might work to use Smash at low percents to get out of combos. Any thoughts?
 

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After testing a little bit, I've come to the conclusion that, while Shield does indeed decrease damage, it does not decrease knockback. So it's much, much better than Smash is as a "finisher" art.

However, I can't give much advice to SGJet regarding using Smash as a combo escaper.
 
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erico9001

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Some people have been observing my Shulk and wondering if it might work to use Smash at low percents to get out of combos. Any thoughts?
It can. Here's what I recently had to say about it.
Also I did some more thinking on using MSmash early on. It's a good idea as long as you know the opponent is capable of comboing you. I look at it this way:
If the opponent was going to combo you to 40% anyways (while you deal 0% damage), getting out of the combo even if you're to only deal half damage is a good idea. Then you could possibly have the opponent at 20% damage when he's got you at 40% damage. Furthermore, if the opponent relies on combos, then you could possibly even be in the lead in terms of damage, despite only dealing half damage yourself.
This has been discussed for a while though.

After testing a little bit, I've come to the conclusion that, while Shield does indeed decrease damage, it does not decrease knockback. So it's much, much better than Smash is as a "finisher" art.
It actually decreases knockback a few percents. Nothing to stress about though. It is the same deal with MSpeed. MShield is good for killing if you are at high percents yourself, but the decreased mobility hurts your off-stage attacks. Slower land movements don't help you either.
 
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Masonomace

Yeah Shulk, get stuck in!
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I wish I was messing around with Shulk's DACG, because I feel like Shield mode's DACG would be godlike while Speed's DACG goes without saying being an extra means of grab distance, due to the problem that Shulk's standing grab range isn't impressive. Vanilla's DACG was slightly, sliiiiightly more distance than a dash grab but meh.
 
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