Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[kj22]

Or throw a banana at you.

but I thought nair beats banana?

 

[kj22]

Does speed monado decrease knockback?

 

[NairWizard]

but I thought nair beats banana?

You wait until the n-air finishes, then you throw the banana (or during the ending).

 

[kj22]

You wait until the n-air finishes, then you throw the banana (or during the ending).

laaaame...hopefully diddys won't know that and we can use this to our advantage. Quick delete the post! D;

 

[Berserker.]

Does speed monado decrease knockback?

It reduces damage so yeah, it slightly reduces knockback but not by much

3rd OP got updated

 

[Berserker.]

I feel like we're all ignoring b-air ever since f-air become really good in 1.04. I still think b-air is very useful since it consistently outranges everything in the game. It's also still good for swatting projectiles but the landing lag kinda sucks. What do you guys think at the moment?

.........

Anyway, time to break the serious-ish tone of this thread

@ NairWizard
@ #HBC | Ryker
@ Masonomace
@ erico9001
@ kj22
@ ChronoPenguin
@DavemanCozy
@any shulk main

What's your wishlist for 1.05?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

An autocancelable aerial. That or significantly less start-up on Bair. Shulk is close to fine though. I would mostly just like to see Diddy nerfed and backrolls nerfed in general.

Also, Bair is Godlike for poking things out, but not for spacing. Use it once because it's hard to react to. Don't use it repeatedly in a row because others can close space easily on the start-up.

 

[Masonomace]

What's your wishlist for 1.05?

At first I was going to legit throw out my wishlist for a lot of characters but I'll do just Shulk:

Luxury wishing to Santa Smash:

• Make AAS's 2nd hit not dip downward but straight sideways.
• Make MAS consistently connect more smoothly so I don't have to delay the hits in-between.
• More horizontal distance on BSL, a diagonal 45° angle rising to a straight down slash. Make It hit for 18% every time. :D
• Make the HMArts last for 8 seconds exactly. 6 is honestly too short imho.
• Make the DMArts last for 22 seconds exactly. It just feels like not all the DMArts last for the same duration.

Serious wishing to Santa Smash:

• B-air having a slight decrease of start-up time. But I don't want that frontward hit-box B-air has be removed.
• D-smash having a 6th hit from behind. Seriously. I want the Back-side of D-smash to have 3 hits like the Front does.
• U-tilt's Beam activate later, but cover slightly more range behind Shulk.
• GIVE F-TILT THE OPTION TO BE TILTED UP OR DOWN. CROUCHING OP~
• N-air deal 7% with the Beam area & 8% with the Monado sword area. I think that's fair don't you?

EDIT:
Oh, & about B-air I love it. I'm all about that B-air, I still use the air mobility Jump grants or Speed to help follow up F-air > front-facing B-air hit to gimp them or KO them. It's a play-style quirk that grew on me defining me in a way, & I like it. B-air's range is fantastic & I retreat with B-air often. MArt B-Reversing > B-air is hotness, & really just a RAR > B-air is da bess. B-air is my life & love.

 

[NairWizard]

Make Speed Monado increase Shulk's horizontal aerial acceleration, so that he can make it back to the stage with both Speed and Jump, and also achieve better followups in Speed.

Shulk's fine, though, still think he's very good.

 

[Berserker.]

I got a lot of mileage out of back slash charge today. It's back hitting especially when my opponents are in mid-air. Also, the super armor is REALLY good. I noticed that it didn't work once in a match but overall, it's very good.

Seriously though, I got a lot of back hits off hitting air borne characters

Serious wishing Santa Smash:

• B-air having a slight decrease of start-up time. But I don't want that frontward hit-box B-air has be removed

Why?

Make Speed Monado increase Shulk's horizontal aerial acceleration, so that he can make it back to the stage with both Speed and Jump, and also achieve better followups in Speed.

Speed Monado does that already. Not as good as jump's boost though

 

[NairWizard]

Speed Monado does that already. Not as good as jump's boost though

It increases his aerial speed, but does it increase his aerial acceleration? as in, how fast he gets to max speed once moving.
It very well might, but if it does, I don't think it's very much, so I'd like it to be a little more

 

[Berserker.]

It increases his aerial speed, but does it increase his aerial acceleration? as in, how fast he gets to max speed once moving.
It very well might, but if it does, I don't think it's very much, so I'd like it to be a little more

Whoops

Nope. It doesn't increase the air acceleration. My bad. I'm glad you're quite active in this thread by the way

 

[Masonomace]

Why?

B-air's start-up could be a smidgen faster, but mostly I want the front-hitting portion of B-air to stay there. That's my quirk to the max. In my subjective opinion, I'd like more people using the close-ranged frontal hit of B-air for its gimping-worthy nature.

 

[Berserker.]

B-air's start-up could be a smidgen faster, but mostly I want the front-hitting portion of B-air to stay there. That's my quirk to the max. In my subjective opinion, I'd like more people using the close-ranged frontal hit of B-air for its gimping-worthy nature.

If you want it then...

But I don't want that frontward hit-box B-air has be removed.

Wait so what happened with this post then?

 

[NairWizard]

"has" should be "to" I'm guessing, in that sentence

 

[Berserker.]

• N-air deal 7% with the Beam area & 8% with the Monado sword area. I think that's fair don't you?

It actually is. Vanilla base hit is 7%. Tipper is 8%

Brah. You've been spending too much time on speed monado but I cannot blame you. lol

 

[Masonomace]

If you want it then...

Wait so what happened with this post then?

Nuffin Muffin, has is okay to say because it described B-air's possession of the frontward hit-box. To works too though.

It actually is. Vanilla base hit is 7%. Tipper is 8%

Brah. You've been spending too much time on speed monado but I cannot blame you. lol

No I mean I want the current N-air getting reversed. I want the Sweetspot 8% damage to come from Shulk's red Monado sword, & the sourspot 7% come from the beam. As of now we're dealing 7% with the red blade which is majorly our sweetspot, but atm it's not.

Honestly I need more time on Speed, I think I'm one of the several who doesn't favor Speed as my #1 used MArt. I put Shield on too high of a pedestal.

 

[Berserker.]

Whoops again. I'm on a misreading streak >_>

I'm not sure if n-air should have its sweetspot on its base. We should be rewarded for taking advantage of Shulk's range.

And, I like all of my arts equally. They're all good in different situations. As long as you don't treat shield, smash or buster like jump or speed. I'm gonna try tinkering with the arts again. Start with shield or smash. I think I've already done this and said that I didn't get much out of it but I'll try it again. Won't hurt anyway. Hopefully

Lastly, f-air > n-air is becoming clear to me. I've used f-air for more purposes than n-air. Despite the landing lag

 

[Masonomace]

My N-air wishlist change is small, it's practically one of if not the only move in Shulk's move-set that doesn't make that much sense. Believe me I'm not complaining about it, but of his moves that are 95% sweetspotted with the red blade, the rogue 5% favoring the Beam to be the sweetspot of N-air to me seems like, "wtf m8" but at the same time it's, "I'll take what I can get". Still, I don't mind it.

Realistically it's not that much of a deal, but if that's to be the case then I nominate B-air & F-air's sourspots to be sweetspots.

I like Shield the most, but I keep all 5 MArts in mind for the strategy. Never treating a MArt like it's another MArt is a great thing.

And other than just jumping around drifting in Jump mode to stall some time, a nice buffered cross-up of SH > F-air > drifted B-air > landing behind them with that sliiiide feels so smoooth. Even if they put up their bubble shield, their shield takes the outer hit of the F-air & watch us drift past them by the time they drop their shield & they get thrusted by the B-air. Feels good.

If you're not feeling the SH, FH > F-air > B-air FF feels good too.

 

[Berserker.]

Not saying dash vision is useful or useless. I still think power vision is ultimately the best version of vision but I'll try out dash vision. The additional dash for the counter attack might be useful for something. I'm under the notion that this version is particularly good against zoners but that's how it only seems. Has anyone tried messing around with dash vision also?

Edit:

- Against heavier characters, they seem to come out of hitsun pretty quickly after the counter attack. I countered Samus' uncharged shot and she was able to b-air me during dash vision's ending lag. Maybe it's because I didn't move away quickly? I don't know
- Against lighter characters... I tried going against ZSS. I felt that she went out of hitsun and she probably had enough time to b-air me during dash vision's ending lag. I went against Kirby and HE DEFINITELY had the time to b-air me
- I'm able to avoid punishment by rolling away

Seriously though. Possibly getting punished after counter attacking? That's something only done when I'm in buster. This counter isn't that good. How's everyone doing with this? The damage is also pretty crap but maybe that's because I'm so accustomed to how damaging his standard vision and power vision are

Eh. I'm not feeling it with this custom

 

[Masonomace]

Unfortunately I didn't touch up on DV that much. I wanna say that on-paper it looks good, but the performance of DV may heavily change if you buffer a SH just before countering. I remember DV's aerial counterattack isn't the same as his grounded dashing distance, so there's that.

DV + Forward input also has more range & goes a farther distance than the other Forwarded Visions. I wasn't feeling the Custom either but I feel that if I return to messing around with it fully, there can definitely be a usage for DV. Like canceling the Ledge-Jump with a buffered DV, instantly countering the edge-guarding attack, or yeah.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

Ok, definitively, what's Shulk's best moveset with customs?

 

[Berserker.]

Monado Arts
------------
Air slash
Power vision

Side B can either be Back slash or Back slash charge

 

[erico9001]

@ erico9001 hmm. . .I steered away from the thought of actually using Jump as a means of avoiding early combos by taking a smidgen extra damage % for it, but then again Jump in Neutral is funny. Until we learn most if not everything about the MArts DMArts & HMArts, I won't go too far into discussion pertaining to Jump's usage of combo escaping like Buster, though I will try it out & see how it do. While they both have lowered Damage Defense & Weight to help escape, I can say from my experience with using Smash for this kind of occasion despite the 50% damage reduction, apparently having lowered Knockback Defense(?) & reduced Weight helps him escape out of early combos very easily, so easily that I was escaping Sheik's F-tilt strings after her first F-tilt, including her D-throw shenanigans, & also avoiding a good majority of rapid jabs to prevent being hit from the finisher. The best part, Smash doesn't have lowered Defense so it's not as grieving as Jump or Buster, that I would imagine they'd be.

All I'm really trying to say is I used to avoid Buster/Jump with people that combo but there's not actually much to fear. If Buster and Jump do not change your weight, you'll still get out of the combo at the same percent you do in Vanilla Shulk. If Jump makes you lighter, you should actually get out earlier. In addition, if the opponent does not adjust to the extra damage you are taking, he could mess up the combo. However, since Buster does not increase damage much, you might not get out of the combo earlier - in which case you'll have taken a bit more damage.

Also I did some more thinking on using MSmash early on. It's a good idea as long as you know the opponent is capable of comboing you. I look at it this way:
If the opponent was going to combo you to 40% anyways (while you deal 0% damage), getting out of the combo even if you're to only deal half damage is a good idea. Then you could possibly have the opponent at 20% damage when he's got you at 40% damage. Furthermore, if the opponent relies on combos, then you could possibly even be in the lead in terms of damage, despite only dealing half damage yourself.

 

[NairWizard]

Nuffin Muffin, has is okay to say because it described B-air's possession of the frontward hit-box. To works too though.

OBJECTION

It should be "has to" in that case.

*cough*
Ahem. Glad we sorted out Shulk's custom moves.

 

[Masonomace]

All I'm really trying to say is I used to avoid Buster/Jump with people that combo but there's not actually much to fear. If Buster and Jump do not change your weight, you'll still get out of the combo at the same percent you do in Vanilla Shulk. If Jump makes you lighter, you should actually get out earlier. In addition, if the opponent does not adjust to the extra damage you are taking, he could mess up the combo. However, since Buster does not increase damage much, you might not get out of the combo earlier - in which case you'll have taken a bit more damage.

Also I did some more thinking on using MSmash early on. It's a good idea as long as you know the opponent is capable of comboing you. I look at it this way:
If the opponent was going to combo you to 40% anyways (while you deal 0% damage), getting out of the combo even if you're to only deal half damage is a good idea. Then you could possibly have the opponent at 20% damage when he's got you at 40% damage. Furthermore, if the opponent relies on combos, then you could possibly even be in the lead in terms of damage, despite only dealing half damage yourself.

Yeah I tried out using Jump & Buster in the same manner we use Smash for avoiding early combos, & just from trying it out once or twice the additional damage really isn't all that much. It was starting to become a slight problem utilizing Jump or Buster to avoid combos the moment a character used a relatively beefy-strong aerial after their follow-up & dealt 2% more rather than 1% from baby hits like Sheik's F-tilt, or a projectile like Mario's fireball.

The issue becomes more dangerous when moves normally dealing 14% or higher are increased further by Jump's Damage Received, though Buster wasn't as bad. Considering Buster's Knockback decrease, it can be a lot more unsafe than Jump would be.

OBJECTION

It should be "has to" in that case.

*cough*
Ahem. Glad we sorted out Shulk's custom moves.

The sorting war of Customs still rages on, we gotta master dealing 18% with BSL so that it becomes our most-used Side-B.

 

[Berserker.]

The sorting war of Customs still rages on, we gotta master dealing 18% with BSL so that it becomes our most-used Side-B.

Eh. It's too impractical to land the hit. I can see it as very difficult to land plus, it doesn't have that much utility outside of damage and recovery. Also, it's so EASY to hit Shulk out of BSL

What a shame

 

[Masonomace]

Eh. It's too impractical to land the hit. I can see it as very difficult to land plus, it doesn't have that much utility outside of damage and recovery. Also, it's so EASY to hit Shulk out of BSL

What a shame

Alas I agree. I've been half-serious every time I mention BSL's 18%. The damage augmented with Buster is great damage without the rogue 18%, but it's too bad the ending lag is long despite having fast start-up. We should probably utilize the fast start-up of BSL by baiting the opponent while we land. The perfect example would be to do:

SH > Cycle to Jump > any aerial > MArt L-Cancel > BSL

It would be more convincing to use a laggy aerial rather than N-air, but again it matters not when MArt L-Cancel is involved. The moment they try punishing us OoS with grab or a dash grab, they'd whiff due to the invincibility window MArts have upon activation. And when we buffer BSL out of MArt L-Cancel, the bait becomes a success. Thoughts?

EDIT:
Tbh shield-stun is low all-around, so we might be able to punish attacks OoS with BSL whether we drop shield & do it, or buffer a SH after dropping shield to get that high rising BSL.

 

[Berserker.]

Despite the "faster" start up, it's still pretty easy to react to so idk

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

As said by most everyone else, Smash is very useful to get out of combos such as Sheik's dthrow, Rosalina's uthrow > utilt > uair strings, etc. However, what I don't see a lot of is usage of is Smash at low percent on characters who don't have a very good recovery and can be gimped by the increased knockback very easily. Some characters that come to mind that I commonly do this on are Little Mac, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Sheik, and Peach once she's used up her float. Has anyone else found success with low percent Smash gimps? If so, what other characters do you do it on?

 

[Masonomace]

As said by most everyone else, Smash is very useful to get out of combos such as Sheik's dthrow, Rosalina's uthrow > utilt > uair strings, etc. However, what I don't see a lot of is usage of is Smash at low percent on characters who don't have a very good recovery and can be gimped by the increased knockback very easily. Some characters that come to mind that I commonly do this on are Little Mac, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Sheik, and Peach once she's used up her float. Has anyone else found success with low percent Smash gimps? If so, what other characters do you do it on?

I don't play against that many characters, but I've gimped all these characters with Smash:
&

I've gimped too, but he makes use of his Up-B trampoline so at first it would seem hard to gimp him, but he has to bounce on the trampoline at least twice to attempt recovering back to the ledge, so all the meanwhile we just go down there & hit 'em one last time to seal the stock.

I'm surprised you've gimped Sheik considering her Bouncing Fish is still reliable for a horizontal recovery move she throws out often. I can see Peach being easy togimp after her float's gone so I'll think about that. But yeah, & come to mind too because of their below-average recovery.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Whats my wishlist?

You know those times where you get hit but you swear on your life you hit counter before you were hit?
Then you already know my wish.

 

[Berserker.]

Oh wow. I can't believe I never thought of combo'ing off buster d-throw to d-tilt. All of these are true combos. Only works on certain characters. I set them to level 1 in training mode. Try it out

Default buster
Pikachu (Works from 11-27%)
Fox (Works from 11-29%)
Falco (Works from 11-26%)
Sheik (Works from 12-22%)
ZSS (Works from 11-30%)
Greninja (Works from 13-34%)
Diddy Kong (Works from 13-27%)
Dark Pit (Works from 13-18%)
Pit (Works from 13-18%)
Bowser (Works from 16-28%)
Donkey Kong (Works from 16-32%)
King Dedede (Works from 15-31%)
Bowser Jr (Works from 13-17%)
Captain Falcon (Works from 14-22%)
ROB (Works from 14-32%)

Decisive buster
Pikachu (Works from 10-26%)
Fox (Works from 11-29%)
Falco (Works from 10-25%)
Sheik (Works from 11-21%)
ZSS (Works from 10-29%)
Greninja (Works from 12-33%)
Diddy Kong (Works from 12-26%)
Dark Pit (Works from 12-17%)
Pit (Works from 12-17%)
Bowser (Works from 15-27%)
Donkey Kong (Works from 15-31%)
King Dedede (Works from 14-30%)
Bowser Jr (Works from 12-16%)
Captain Falcon (Works from 13-21%)
ROB (Works from 13-31%)

It doesn't work on all characters but hey, it works against the relevant characters like Diddy. Lol. Fun fact: I tried doing this on HBuster against ZSS. Started working at 59%. You can see the knockback nerf clearly. LOL

D-throw (Buster) to full jab works ONLY on two characters

Bowser (0-26%)
Donkey Kong (0-13%)


Rage affects all the numbers but **** all of you. I'm not testing that ****

Edit: Updated now with Bowser, ROB, C.Falcon, DDD, BJr, and DK

 

[Cpt.]

Awesome guide. For someone just getting into Shulk this is great! Thanks so much!!!

 

[MarioFireRed]

Whats my wishlist?

You know those times where you get hit but you swear on your life you hit counter before you were hit?
Then you already know my wish.

I've actually seen this happen to a friend of mine when I was sparring him. His Mac was in the air, he had his counter animation start up, but he still got hit by my Pit's Uair. And again. And again.

Also Beserk those Buster D-Throw D-Tilt strings seem interesting. Another option against Diddy is always a good thing.

 

[Berserker.]

I've actually seen this happen to a friend of mine when I was sparring him. His Mac was in the air, he had his counter animation start up, but he still got hit by my Pit's Uair. And again. And again.

Also Beserk those Buster D-Throw D-Tilt strings seem interesting. Another option against Diddy is always a good thing.

Eh. That's not all. I found one more fun **** in the lab with Monado jump. I'll make the post about it later. Busy testing it

 

[TheHopefulHero]

I've actually seen this happen to a friend of mine when I was sparring him. His Mac was in the air, he had his counter animation start up, but he still got hit by my Pit's Uair. And again. And again.

Also Beserk those Buster D-Throw D-Tilt strings seem interesting. Another option against Diddy is always a good thing.

You can also use d-throw -> dash -> f-air while in Speed until 50%. It deals around 10 damage, but it something you can follow up a grab while in Speed Art.

 

[TheHopefulHero]

Also, I've been away for quite a while, so I've got my share reading up to do in this thread.

 

[Berserker.]

Wow. I really have nothing to do today don't I?

Monado art jump activated. FF N-air *slide a bit*->U-tilt-> Air slash for 25% damage. Parenthesis number mean that the second hit of air slash is not counted in the combo

Note that the sliding part is pretty important

Works on...
ROB @ 13-29(30-42)%
Sheik @ 17-30%
Ganondorf @ 21-27(28-36)%
Robin @ 18-22(23-29)30-35%
Lol Diddy @ 17-26%(28-31)32-39% ~27 whiffs for some reason
Fox @ 13-34%
Falco @ 13-34%
ZSS @ 13-34%

I'm too tired to test it on everyone so some help would be amazing. Also, if anyone can re-test that buster d-throw->d-tilt combo then that would be awesome

Combo'ing off buster d-throw to d-tilt. All of these are true combos. Only works on certain characters. I set them to level 1 in training mode. Try it out

Default buster
Pikachu (Works from 11-27%)
Fox (Works from 11-29%)
Falco (Works from 11-26%)
Sheik (Works from 12-22%)
ZSS (Works from 11-30%)
Greninja (Works from 13-34%)
Diddy Kong (Works from 13-27%)
Dark Pit (Works from 13-18%)
Pit (Works from 13-18%)
Bowser (Works from 16-28%)
Donkey Kong (Works from 16-32%)
King Dedede (Works from 15-31%)
Bowser Jr (Works from 13-19%)
Captain Falcon (Works from 14-22%)
ROB (Works from 14-32%)

Decisive buster
Pikachu (Works from 10-26%)
Fox (Works from 11-29%)
Falco (Works from 10-25%)
Sheik (Works from 11-21%)
ZSS (Works from 10-29%)
Greninja (Works from 12-33%)
Diddy Kong (Works from 12-26%)
Dark Pit (Works from 12-17%)
Pit (Works from 12-17%)
Bowser (Works from 15-27%)
Donkey Kong (Works from 15-31%)
King Dedede (Works from 14-30%)
Bowser Jr (Works from 12-18%)
Captain Falcon (Works from 13-21%)
ROB (Works from 13-31%)

It doesn't work on all characters but hey, it works against the relevant characters like Diddy. Lol. Fun fact: I tried doing this on HBuster against ZSS. Started working at 59%. You can see the knockback nerf clearly. LOL

D-throw (Buster) to full jab works ONLY on two characters

Bowser (0-26%)
Donkey Kong (0-13%)

 

[FlareHabanero]

I'm experimenting with the jab Shulk has to see if any combos are possible with it. I found that using neutral aerial, jab, and grab is a possible combination with Vanilla and Buster. It seems that the general rule is that it's easier to preform it on larger characters.

I'm also not 100% sure about this, but I think I found a possible pseudo chain grab in Buster using the up throw, jab, and grab. I can use the combination against Bowser and Fox as far as I know, and the highest you can rack up to seems to be 80%. The problem is that it's very precise, meaning that if you're too fast you can actually fail to refresh the grab, but if you're too slow the character can double jump or air dodge out of it.