Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[ChronoPenguin]

Shouldn't it go to jab 2 and then grab/AS?
Or is jab 1 more reliable?/I've been going to jab 2.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Shouldn't it go to jab 2 and then grab/AS?
Or is jab 1 more reliable?/I've been going to jab 2.

Normally the game automatically goes into the second hit if attempting to grab, however it is possible to create a loophole where you can jab and wait just long enough on the last frame so you can grab like normal. Keep in mind it's only usable by characters with fast jabs, and it's not practical since it's very precise and there is still a small window where the opponent can escape. It works best if the opponent is still in the air, since they can't exploit the small window. Hence why for Shulk neutral aerial, jab, and grab and up throw, jab, and grab work, but a straight forward jab and grab doesn't.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Right so given jab 1 and jab 2 why not do
Nair, jab 1, jab 2, pause, Air slash?

 

[FlareHabanero]

Right so given jab 1 and jab 2 why not do
Nair, jab 1, jab 2, pause, Air slash?

The second hit of the jab combo leaves a bigger window then the first hit, meaning the opponent can escape from that easier. The first jab then Air Slash appears to be slightly safer.

Also for clarification, I'm testing all this on a lv. 9 CPU Fox. Also, I do not recommend learning all this until I use it against human players and see what happens.

 

[Masonomace]

Yeah. We have more frame advantage stopping at Jab-1 rather than Jab-1 > Jab-2 & try any follow-up that's not Jab-3. This is why I mostly jab-1 > grab reset, but it varies with characters too. We're aware of light-weights getting out of jab very easily, while heavies take both jabs.

EDIT: I'm bad for derailing the current topic of Buster's D-throw > Jabs, but on the side, how are you guys doing with your Ledge-Trumping aka Cold Steeling?

I dig the usage of D-throw early game, just as long as we don't stale it too hard for later (we won't).

 

[Berserker.]

Alright, I'll continue testing today but I'm still feeling lazy as F

Talking about this post. Anyone wanna help?

 

[TheHopefulHero]

Alright, I'll continue testing today but I'm still feeling lazy as F

Talking about this post. Anyone wanna help?

Meant to post earlier,but I had a lot of things to do today. I would like to help and I've got some small numbers for the Jump & Buster Combos.

Jump: FF N-air -> u-tilt-> Air-Slash
Wario (16% - 26%) - A little difficult to combo with Air-Slash around 26%


Buster: d-throw -> d-tilt
Mario (21% - 33%)
Luigi ( 20 % -22% (?)) - No idea why that specific range only...
Bowser Jr. (13% -19%) -Earliest so far.
Wario (13% -23%)

Will test again as soon as possible.

 

[Berserker.]

Meant to post earlier,but I had a lot of things to do today. I would like to help and I've got some small numbers for the Jump & Buster Combos.

Jump:
Wario (16% - 26%) - A little difficult to combo with Air-Slash around 26%


Buster:
Mario (21% - 33%)
Luigi ( 20 % -22% (?)) - No idea why that specific range only...
Bowser Jr. (13% -19%) -Earliest so far.
Wario (13% -23%)

Will test again as soon as possible.

Thank god. Thank you for helping

Jr works from 13-19%... Alright. Thanks for the correction

 

[TheHopefulHero]

No problem. Been wanting to help out on the boards for a bit, and I thought this was something I can do. Anyway, got to call it for now, but I'll try to post something tomorrow as soon as possible (got a birthday with the family to celebrate).

Hope everything goes well on your end.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Yo anyone watch the finals for the Come Up? Holy crap, I just got back from Toronto, Ally took the finals vs Will with Shulk after losing with Mario, he won the tourney. (Edit: he won vs Will in GF with Shulk, M2K got 4th but it was the last match I watched. I typed too fast, too excited) Up-B out of shield is definitely something to keep in mind to get out of pressure fast.

 

[Berserker.]

Yo anyone watch the finals for the Come Up? Holy crap, I just got back from Toronto, Ally took the finals vs M2K with Shulk after losing with Mario, he won the tourney. Up-B out of shield is definitely something to keep in mind to get out of pressure fast.

****. Why was I focused in the lab? I missed it ;(

Well, Dr. Mario d-throw->d-tilt buster is basically the same numbers as Mario

 

[Berserker.]

Monado art jump

N-air -> F-air -> Air slash

That actually works but it's a bit strict

Marth (51%)
Robin (51%)
Sheik (51%)
Mario (52%)

Too lazy to test the rest again

 

[SGJet]

Hey guys, I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but Back Slash can break shields. Just thought I would mention it to you guys Let's let them know our names everybody!

 

[Berserker.]

Hey guys, I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but Back Slash can break shields. Just thought I would mention it to you guys Let's let them know our names everybody!

Probably because back slash deals a lot of damage and with buster, it deals a WHOLE LOT of damage. Damage affects shields so this isn't news. But don't worry, they will know our names

 

[SGJet]

Okay sweet! If I can help unlock the Monado's power, just let me know ^_^

 

[Masonomace]

Back in September - October, Back Slash confused me when it dealt more shield-stun & shield-damage to the back-side of shields, but thinking about it now it feels so right.

Back Slash deals additional everything to the back-side of everything, except our kryptonite: Back Shield

 

[SGJet]

LOL yea dude it feels ridiculously right. A good option is running past someone and just straight up back slashing. The amount of Shield damage it does is likely to scare the sh*t outta them. That or you'll actually hit them which works too XD

 

[Berserker.]

Too bad they can easily telegraph back slash and power shield it at the right moment

:U

 

[SGJet]

Yea, I guess you're right. I suppose if you get a read or mixup your gameplay it can work. Like a lot of Shulk's stuff you gotta get those reads. Other stuff that you all might find pertinent is that fair is ridiculously good for edgeguarding someone when they are trying to sweetspot the ledge. What I mean is that if you FF fair right next to the ledge, the tip of the Monado will nick em and send them back out. Did it to a Sheik the other day. Like the edge of the Monado goes underneath the stage.

 

[SGJet]

Also, it's running past them that makes it somewhat decent. Like you'll catch them doing something stupid when you rush past them. A lot of times they won't be ready for a b reversed back slash.

 

[Masonomace]

Speaking of power shielding, that's one tool that shuts down Buster's quirk of shield-stun, that & spot-dodging & rolling but that's besides the point. I was playing against my friends in some Team Battles, & the moment my friend & I were the only ones left I used a spaced N-air drifting away, but he runs up powershielding my N-air gutting me. Our Buster becomes invalid against powershielding. Not even DBuster or HBuster save us from powershielding either. HIgh-level play might drown out Buster's practicality, or it might not.

Now the thought of using a Buster augmented Back Slash no longer interests me. Buster D-smash will be our ray of hope though.

 

[Berserker.]

Just try to minimize the back slash usage. BS is meh

 

[SGJet]

Right I see where you're coming from, but your opponent won't be able to powershield everything. That's why we have our mixups! If you see that they keep powershield you just grab/pivot grab them. Now they've gotta guess whether you'll go for that SH aerial or something else.

 

[SGJet]

It won't lol

What won't?

 

[Berserker.]

Also masonomace, power shielding was always effective against any attack. Buster won't be invalidated. Unless it's proven to be more of a liability than an asset

 

[SGJet]

Other random finds:
Uair is great for double jump predictions
Nair -> Jab 1 -> Dash Dance -> Grab/Fsmash/Jab 1 (preferably in MArt Speed)
Jc Usmash on the ledge covers a lot of options
Mixing up pivot ftilt and pivot grab after a Nair will help confuse your opponent

 

[Masonomace]

Despite my post, I didn't mean to say Buster will be invalidated entirely by powershield, only from the moments a Buster augmented attack is powershielded is when we're more prone to receive punishment because the lack-of shield-stun that keeps Buster safe is all. Multi-hitting attacks such as F-smash U-smash D-smash U-air & D-air would fair against powershield, just not singular one-hitting attacks especially landing aerials.

Mixing it up like SGJet mentioned, would involve some empty SHs & FF'ing to the floor to grab would be a decent feint & such. Buster's grab-game is still gonna do work, but the reliance of SH > N-air or F-air, I will cut down a bit to explore other options.

I dig the JC U-smash ledge option, as Berserk mentioned once about U-smash being disjointed, I believe it. Something about that grounded 1st hit that brings them into the 2nd hit just feels cheezy.

 

[SGJet]

Despite my post, I didn't mean to say Buster will be invalidated entirely by powershield, only from the moments a Buster augmented attack is powershielded is when we're more prone to receive punishment because the lack-of shield-stun that keeps Buster safe is all. Multi-hitting attacks such as F-smash U-smash D-smash U-air & D-air would fair against powershield, just not singular one-hitting attacks especially landing aerials.

Mixing it up like SGJet mentioned, would involve some empty SHs & FF'ing to the floor to grab would be a decent feint & such. Buster's grab-game is still gonna do work, but the reliance of SH > N-air or F-air, I will cut down a bit to explore other options.

I dig the JC U-smash ledge option, as Berserk mentioned once about U-smash being disjointed, I believe it. Something about that grounded 1st hit that brings them into the 2nd hit just feels cheezy.

All the cheese dude. And apparently someone was telling me (thought I haven't tested it) but if they stay on the ledge and don't have invincibility, you can hit them with the first hit of Usmash and they'll get wall spiked.

But yea we need to think about more approach options. Maybe MArt bounces would help.

Oh also, this'll probably only work once on your opponent, but as a ledge option, you can fall and jump right next to the ledge and dair. The first hit of dair will suck them in if they're next to you and then spike them. This one I know works, done it a couple times before. It's a one trick pony, but it's stylish af.

 

[Masonomace]

All the cheese dude. And apparently someone was telling me (thought I haven't tested it) but if they stay on the ledge and don't have invincibility, you can hit them with the first hit of Usmash and they'll get wall spiked.

But yea we need to think about more approach options. Maybe MArt bounces would help.

Oh also, this'll probably only work once on your opponent, but as a ledge option, you can fall and jump right next to the ledge and dair. The first hit of dair will suck them in if they're next to you and then spike them. This one I know works, done it a couple times before. It's a one trick pony, but it's stylish af.

Huh. . . funny that you mention that about U-smash. I watched Pika Kong D-smash (1st hit sweetspot area) a Luigi who was stuck inside but under the ledge & was stage-spiked instantly. It's also interesting that someone was telling you about that, I outta mess around with that on Tuesday / Wednesday including some helpful assistance with Berserk's Buster D-throw combos. The idea of Hyphen smashing the ledge or OoS JC U-smash now sounds a lot smoother.

As for that one-trick pony express trip to the pits, I can see it working once, unless the opponent relies to ledge-climbing up & getting outta there already, but doing it once & sealing a stock may condition him to never stay on the ledge & get off of it quickly anyways, so a walk-off fake-out to a reverse drifted N-air F-air B-air or even D-air on-stage coming back would wreck.

 

[TheHopefulHero]

Thought I'd post some numbers regarding the Jump and Buster Combos (Organized via CSS):
-Keep in Mind that this is with Default Monado Arts.

Jump: FF N-air -> u-tilt-> Air-Slas
Wario (16% - 26%) - A little difficult to combo with Air-Slash around 26%
Lol Diddy @ 17-26%(28-31)32-39% ~27 whiffs for some reason
Link (16% -38%) - 2nd Air-Slash Hit starts missing around 25%.
Sheik @ 17-30%
Ganondorf @ 21-27(28-36)%
ZSS @ 13-34%
Ike (16% - 37%) - 2nd Air Slash Hit starts missing around 30%
Robin @ 18-22(23-29)30-35%
King Dedede (18% - 47%) - 2nd Air Slash Hit start missing around 30%. (Plenty of damage to work with here!)
Meta Knight (17% - 32%) - Meta Knight likes to dip downwards in this combo at 23%…
Fox @ 13-34%
Falco @ 13-34%
ROB @ 13-29(30-42)%


Works but Strict Timing:
Marth (51%)
Robin (51%)
Sheik (51%)
Mario (52%)

Works if Shulk knocks the opponent behind him. (Possible DI-Exploit/Advantage?)
Link (50%)


Buster: d-throw -> d-tilt
Mario (21% - 33%)
Luigi ( 20 % -22% (?)) - No idea why that specific range only...
Bowser (Works from 16-28%)
Bowser Jr. (13% -19%)
Wario (13% -23%)
Donkey Kong (Works from 16-32%)
Diddy Kong (Works from 13-27%)
Sheik (Works from 12-22%)
ZSS (Works from 11-30%)
Pit (Works from 13-18%)
Palutena (13% -15%) - Again with specific ranges…
King Dedede (Works from 15-31%)
Fox (Works from 11-29%)
Falco (Works from 11-26%)
Pikachu (Works from 11-27%)

Greninja (Works from 13-34%)
ROB (Works from 14-32%)
Captain Falcon (Works from 14-22%)
Dr.Mario (21% - 33%) - Same as Mario (They really are the same person…)
Dark Pit (Works from 13-18%)

Shout-outs to berserker01 for beginning the data process. Will come back after collecting more data.

 

[Berserker.]

Works but Strict Timing:
Marth (51%)
Robin (51%)
Sheik (51%)
Mario (52%)

Works if Shulk knocks the opponent behind him. (Possible DI-Exploit/Advantage?)
Link (50%)

This is regarding N-air->F-air->Air slash right? If so then thanks!

Also, thanks for the additional numbers :D

 

[erico9001]

How are you guys testing this? If it's training mode CPUs I worry that it may not work against a lv 9 CPUs or real players.

 

[Berserker.]

How are you guys testing this? If it's training mode CPUs I worry that it may not work against a lv 9 CPUs or real players.

Training mode level 1 CPU's

They're all true combos which means it can't be avoided. I've tested it against players and level 9's and they all worked

By that I meant, it's considered a "4-hit combo" in training mode

 

[TheHopefulHero]

Training mode level 1 CPU's

They're all true combos which means it can't be avoided. I've tested it against players and level 9's and they all worked

By that I meant, it's considered a "4-hit combo" in training mode

I've been testing this stuff with Lv.9's and they've been working well so far. The biggest one I'm curious on right now is Shulk himself. The main thing I'm interested in is any possible changes when Shulk has an art active (Namely Jump, Shield, and Smash). But I might have rough time doing that until I boot up the Wii U, as I can only test on the 3DS at the moment. Oh, and yes, Shulk can attack with FF N-Air -> U-tilt -> Air-Slash at 50%, IF he knocks Link behind him. This intrigues me at the moment, as this may be able to help us with people who love to DI out of combos.

So far, i've gotten through the first four rows in the CSS. All that's left is anyone starting from Villager and ending Sonic. (Not sure about Mii Fighters. Namely because I'd need to check for any weight and height differences, and if the classes have any attributes to the combos (i.e. will Gunner have an easier time escaping the combo compared to the Brawler? If so, does the weight and height have any influence?)

 

[SGJet]

As for that one-trick pony express trip to the pits, I can see it working once, unless the opponent relies to ledge-climbing up & getting outta there already, but doing it once & sealing a stock may condition him to never stay on the ledge & get off of it quickly anyways, so a walk-off fake-out to a reverse drifted N-air F-air B-air or even D-air on-stage coming back would wreck.

I don't think I explained it well enough. You can pull this off when Shulk is grabbing the ledge. You jump up D-air when they are next to you on the stage and you are off the stage. Thats when they get sucked into the first hit of D-air and then subsequently the spike. You literally spike someone that was on the stage into the abyss.

 

[Berserker.]

I've been testing this stuff with Lv.9's and they've been working well so far. The biggest one I'm curious on right now is Shulk himself. The main thing I'm interested in is any possible changes when Shulk has an art active (Namely Jump, Shield, and Smash). But I might have rough time doing that until I boot up the Wii U, as I can only test on the 3DS at the moment. Oh, and yes, Shulk can attack with FF N-Air -> U-tilt -> Air-Slash at 50%, IF he knocks Link behind him. This intrigues me at the moment, as this may be able to help us with people who love to DI out of combos.

So far, i've gotten through the first four rows in the CSS. All that's left is anyone starting from Villager and ending Sonic. (Not sure about Mii Fighters. Namely because I'd need to check for any weight and height differences, and if the classes have any attributes to the combos (i.e. will Gunner have an easier time escaping the combo compared to the Brawler? If so, does the weight and height have any influence?)

Then again THANK YOU. I'm busy doing some thesis papers at the moment. Haha

 

[TheHopefulHero]

Big update incoming. Got to testing everyone,except for Mii Fighter and Shulk equipped with a specific art, with the Jump and Buster Combos. Here's what I got, combined with the data from berserker01, organized via CCS.

Combo List (Normal Monado Arts):
Jump: FF N-air -> u-tilt-> Air-Slash (Deals around 25%)
Wario (16% - 26%) - A little difficult to combo with Air-Slash around 26%
Lol Diddy @ 17-26%(28-31) 32-39% ~27 whiffs for some reason
Link (16% -38%) - 2nd Air-Slash Hit starts missing around 25%.
Sheik @ 17-30%
Ganondorf @ 21-27(28-36)%
ZSS @ 13-34%
Ike (16% -37%) - 2nd Air Slash Hit starts missing around 30%
Robin @ 18-22(23-29)30-35%
King Dedede (18% -47%) - 2nd Air Slash Hit start missing around 30%. (Plenty of damage to work with here!)
Meta Knight (17% - 32%) - Meta Knight likes to dip downwards in this combo at 23%…
Little Mac (17% - 37%) - Really not air-fighter son.
Fox @ 13-34%
Falco @ 13-34%
ROB @ 13-29(30-42)%
Captain Falcon (22% - 46%) - 2nd Air Slash-Hit misses all-over the place, even at 22%. Falcon loves dipping out of this combo, even as early as 20%, which is still possible, but weird.
-To keep things simple, I’ve gotten this combo to constantly hit at 25% - 32%, every other percent, it’s either a hit or a miss… anything past 36% is where the 2nd Air-Slash hit tends to whiff.
- Technically, you can do this combo at 20%, but good luck get the 2nd Air-Slash to connect consistently.


Vanilla Shulk (20% -35%) - Shulk can be hit by his own combo… Something to think about for Shulk doubles. Also, 2nd Air-Slash Hit starts dropping as soon as 24%.
- I put Vanilla Shulk here because I don’t have the means of testing the other arts at the moment. I will try to post something soon, but I will put up what I have at the moment.

MegaMan (18-42%) - MegaMan tends to dip at 32%, which is also where the 2nd Air-Slash starts to miss. 18% can cause problems, but it’s possible.


Works but Strict Timing:
Marth (51%)
Robin (51%)
Sheik (51%)
Mario (52%)
- This is with (Jump Active) FF N-Air -> U-Tilt -> Air-Slash for reference

Works if Shulk knocks the opponent behind him with U-Tilt. (Possible DI-Exploit/Advantage?)
Link (50%)
- This is with (Jump Active) FF N-Air -> U-Tilt -> Air-Slash for reference



Buster: d-throw -> d-tilt (Deals around 19%)
Mario (21% - 33%)
Luigi ( 20 % -22% (?)) - No idea why that specific range only...
Bowser (Works from 16-28%)
Bowser Jr. (13% -19%)
Wario (13% -23%)
Donkey Kong (Works from 16-32%)
Diddy Kong (Works from 13-27%)
Sheik (Works from 12-22%)
ZSS (Works from 11-30%)
Pit (Works from 13-18%)
Palutena (13% -15%) - Again with specific ranges…
King Dedede (Works from 15-31%)
Fox (Works from 11-29%) \
Falco (Works from 11-26%) - These 3 are candidates for earliest chance to do this combo.
Pikachu (Works from 11-27%) /
Charizard (15%-24%) - 25% works, but it’s really inconsistent, so I kept it separated from the group.
Greninja (Works from 13-34%) - Really weird gravity works to our edge here.
ROB (Works from 14-32%)
Captain Falcon (Works from 14-22%)
Wii Fit Trainer (14%) - No you’re not seeing things. It only works at 14%…. So in light of this, I thought I should list something that can nail at least 24 -25% against her / him.
- (Jump Art active) FF N-Air -> F-Smash (20% - 40%) You need to let the slide carry you, but it can connect more consistently as opposed to the Buster combo here in this situation. It also works against a fair-majority of the cast, and you can use F-tilt as opposed to F-Smash at higher percents for about 20%.

Dr.Mario (21% - 33%) - Same as Mario (They really are the same person…)
Dark Pit (Works from 13-18%)
MegaMan (14% -20%) - Timing’s tight at 20%.

Lot of testing here, but I had a good time doing it. Will try to go back with Shulk and his other arts and see if there's any changes whenever I can

 

[TheHopefulHero]

Then again THANK YOU. I'm busy doing some thesis papers at the moment. Haha

No prob. Happy to help.

 

[DavemanCozy]

The biggest one I'm curious on right now is Shulk himself. The main thing I'm interested in is any possible changes when Shulk has an art active (Namely Jump, Shield, and Smash).

Man, Shulk dittos are so tricky to play. It's what doomed me in 3rd seed at Come Up, only top 2 made it out of pools. Shout-outs to Nightmare for the Shulk ditto though.

The matchup is tricky, it feels like dittos in Brawl, where one thing counters the other (except it's monados instead of type advantages).
From my one experience, this is what if seems to be in Monados:
Buster 5:5 Smash
Jump > Speed
Speed > Shield
Buster > Jump (dat damage...)
Smash > Shield (knockback too strong)
Shield 5:5 Buster
Speed > Buster
Jump > Smash

I don't think it's quite as simple as I put it up there, but it's a general idea of what I felt when I chose a monado art against Nightmare's own art. Shulk dittos are the funnest and most interesting dittos in the game, definitely a matchup I would like to try out sometime with you guys here (after exams though).

 

[TheHopefulHero]

Man, Shulk dittos are so tricky to play. It's what doomed me in 3rd seed at Come Up, only top 2 made it out of pools. Shout-outs to Nightmare for the Shulk ditto though.

The matchup is tricky, it feels like dittos in Brawl, where one thing counters the other (except it's monados instead of type advantages).
From my one experience, this is what if seems to be in Monados:
Buster 5:5 Smash
Jump > Speed
Speed > Shield
Buster > Jump (dat damage...)
Smash > Shield (knockback too strong)
Shield 5:5 Buster
Speed > Buster
Jump > Smash

I don't think it's quite as simple as I put it up there, but it's a general idea of what I felt when I chose a monado art against Nightmare's own art. Shulk dittos are the funnest and most interesting dittos in the game, definitely a matchup I would like to try out sometime with you guys here (after exams though).

Oh I'd be definitely be down for that. It's also something I've been struggling with too (That, and Monado Kirby, but I think Shulk dittos are worse). Not entirely sure if we should rush down other Shulks, or stick to our spacing strategy to keep the Monado arts in check.

It's finals week, so that will have to wait for a while, but I'd be glad to play against you.