Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[#HBC | Ryker]

Regardless of which version used, Vision never worked.

Even when experimenting in practic mode, it would always be cancelled.

You're wrong. I have video evidence above, but I'm not crawling through an hour of video.

 

[erico9001]

Reverse back slash twice? Please elaborate for the uneducated if you don't mind.

You can reverse back slash at the first few frames of the move by tilting in the othe direction. What I found is you can actually do that twice if you're fast enough. You'll end up in the initial direction you were going to go after to reverses.

happy 1000 replies @This Thread.

Something i'm wondering is if the additional knockback you take in MJump is proportional to the extra damage you take rather than a change in lightness, since knockback is calculated by the damage you are at after the hitbox hits.

Anyways, maybe we don't need to worry much about the additional damage you take while in Jump when it comes to early combos. If you assume they are going to string the combos together anyways, which is usually the case, while you will gain the damage faster you will get out of the combo sooner due to the damage. Theoretically, it should not matter if you are in MJump when being combo'd. In fact, this might even throw the opponent off and cause his combo to fail, making it better to be in MJump when being combo'd. Furthermore, if it actually is the case that your character is lighter in addition to the taking extra damage, then that would make MJump even better for being combo'd.

This could possibly extend to MBuster. However, since Buster's damage intake is actually less than MJump's, it might not apply. For instance, look at Mario's U-tilt->U-tilt->U-tilt. With MJump you might be able to get out after two U-tilts with the extra damage you take (maybe not, needs testing). If you got out of MJump after two U-tilts it would be beneficial as you would have less damage overall and would have thrown off the Mario who was not ready to try to follow up with U-airs. If you did not get out after two U-tilts it would be not beneficial with more damage and no throwing off. It's about whether the specific damage you are at is enough to get you off the tipping point. If you were in MBuster, you would be likely still hit by the three tilts still with extra damage given to you since the extra damage would not be large enough to put you off the tipping point. However, the longer the opponent's combo, the more likely you are to get beyond that tipping point and get out of the combo. Really, I guess it all depends on each individual situation - what combo is being used and what damage you are at the start of the combo.

 

[Masonomace]

@ ChronoPenguin check out the first Damage Data table & lemme know if you dig it or not. This goes for anyone else too.

@ #HBC | Ryker sup, so for some additional input on the matter of Vision vs Arcfire I was playing against my friend a ton & played the Robin vs Shulk MU frequently. Anytime I would Vision counter the Arcfire grounded, I had some success going through it since I thought of your previous mentioning post of a theory on Vision having invulnerability on the step back (or something like that). Anyhow, I was never able to pass through Arcfire if I activated Vision airborne, not one time. Every time I used Vision airborne I'd proc the counter window, however I'd instantly be hit from the fire & my Vision ceased. Don't know if that helps anything but I thought I'd mention it.

@ erico9001 hmm. . .I steered away from the thought of actually using Jump as a means of avoiding early combos by taking a smidgen extra damage % for it, but then again Jump in Neutral is funny. Until we learn most if not everything about the MArts DMArts & HMArts, I won't go too far into discussion pertaining to Jump's usage of combo escaping like Buster, though I will try it out & see how it do. While they both have lowered Damage Defense & Weight to help escape, I can say from my experience with using Smash for this kind of occasion despite the 50% damage reduction, apparently having lowered Knockback Defense(?) & reduced Weight helps him escape out of early combos very easily, so easily that I was escaping Sheik's F-tilt strings after her first F-tilt, including her D-throw shenanigans, & also avoiding a good majority of rapid jabs to prevent being hit from the finisher. The best part, Smash doesn't have lowered Defense so it's not as grieving as Jump or Buster, that I would imagine they'd be.

 

[MarioFireRed]

The damage data table in the OP is just...wow. It's pretty easy to follow and properly organized/color coded so new players to Shulk can understand it easily. The only slight problem I have is Jump's inclusion to the data table since we know it's the only art that doesn't modify Shulk's damage output at all. It's also jarring because we only see Jump in the first data table only pertaining to his default moveset.

I suggest making a note where the MArts key is located just above that first damage table to remind readers that Vanilla and Jump, regardless of which MArts special you use, do the exact same damage. That or go the "(D)Buster" route and include Vanilla and Jump into the same column to make it more consistent to the rest of the damage data.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Looks great bud. If I see anything down the line I'll note it

 

[Masonomace]

The damage data table in the OP is just...wow. It's pretty easy to follow and properly organized/color coded so new players to Shulk can understand it easily. The only slight problem I have is Jump's inclusion to the data table since we know it's the only art that doesn't modify Shulk's damage output at all. It's also jarring because we only see Jump in the first data table only pertaining to his default moveset.

I suggest making a note where the MArts key is located just above that first damage table to remind readers that Vanilla and Jump, regardless of which MArts special you use, do the exact same damage. That or go the "(D)Buster" route and include Vanilla and Jump into the same column to make it more consistent to the rest of the damage data.

As a person who loves the color green (that's me), removing Jump from the first table is saddening. I may go the (D)Buster route & include Jump in the same column as Vanilla. The feedback is appreciated, I'll fix that up a bit.

Looks great bud. If I see anything down the line I'll note it

Thanks to the max!

 

[NairWizard]

I wish Shulk's recovery were better. *sigh*

 

[FlareHabanero]

I wish Shulk's recovery were better. *sigh*

On the bright side, at least Air Slash is great for discouraging edge guarding.

 

[NairWizard]

On the bright side, at least Air Slash is great for discouraging edge guarding.

Until you miss the ledge snap and get f-smashed.

 

[kj22]

Ohhhhh solid sense you're a shulk main ;D
Was reading everybody praise you in the "Character competive impressions" thread I'm sloughing my way through each page (on like 140ish outta 180somethong ;/)

I guess I'll ask a question since I'm making this post...

Being a Marth main, I love shulk due to his range and low lag aerials. He can definitely be a great Zoner.

My problem is once the oppenent gets inside shulks range and starts applying pressure its hard to deal with it. Jab is good if you're grounded, but that's assuming your facing the right way (or are turnarounds still 1 frame?) When its pressure in the air its a guessing game between vision and airdodge, as his aerials have pretty long startup time.

How do you guys deal with up close pressure, both grounded and aerial?

Koing has been an issue as well as I don't believe any of his throws kills and he can't punish (with a KO option) a roll instantly, so grab then throw offstage and go for the kill their seems to be the answer.

I'm liking shulk a lot and I'll continue to use him as my 3rd character and stalk these shulk boards ;D

 

[Berserker.]

Until you miss the ledge snap and get f-smashed.

Or meteor smashed. At the moment, yeah. Shulk's lack of ledge snapping really hurts.

Alright, I'm starting to not like how Smash art is VERY read-based or that it's way too reliant on punishment. I'm forced to KO with throws and f-tilt but I want to KO with Smash attacks. Problem is, Shulk's attacks do have **** shield stun in this mode and his weight gets reduced. F wat. So my attacks are unsafe, they're still relatively slow and now I'm lighter? It's not like everyone in a tourney rolls a lot which equates to a free d-smash. I find myself using shield+rage or jump more often now these days

Ohhhhh solid sense you're a shulk main ;D
Was reading everybody praise you in the "Character competive impressions" thread I'm sloughing my way through each page (on like 140ish outta 180somethong ;/)

I guess I'll ask a question since I'm making this post...

Being a Marth main, I love shulk due to his range and low lag aerials. He can definitely be a great Zoner.

My problem is once the oppenent gets inside shulks range and starts applying pressure its hard to deal with it. Jab is good if you're grounded, but that's assuming your facing the right way (or are turnarounds still 1 frame?) When its pressure in the air its a guessing game between vision and airdodge, as his aerials have pretty long startup time.

How do you guys deal with up close pressure, both grounded and aerial?

Koing has been an issue as well as I don't believe any of his throws kills and he can't punish (with a KO option) a roll instantly, so grab then throw offstage and go for the kill their seems to be the answer.

I'm liking shulk a lot and I'll continue to use him as my 3rd character and stalk these shulk boards ;D

Shulk doesn't have THAT much options against pressure because most characters can beat him to the punch because his start ups are pretty long

Grounded, jab is your fastest attack. You can hope for a grab if you want because that's your other fast option but jab is more solid. At air, your best bet is vision, air dodge or n-air (n-air and vision don't work 100% of the time). Power vision works in mid air more than vision. Some arts buffs/debuffs might help or might make it worse. Like buster for example: Using buster when they get into your zone won't do you much if you need to make some space. When you throw them, the damage is tasty but they won't be knocked back that far which is needed at situations like that. This wouldn't be a problem at higher percentages

Lastly, his throws don't kill unless you're in Smash art but yeah. Also, using other arts like Jump or Shield is sometimes better and safer for KO'ing. With jump, go off stage and kill. With shield, take advantage of the rage effect


Edit: About air slash again, just learn how to ledge snap with it. That's all we got at the moment. There's some certain distance or timing with it

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Or meteor smashed. At the moment, yeah. Shulk's lack of ledge snapping really hurts.

Alright, I'm starting to not like how Smash art is VERY read-based or that it's way too reliant on punishment. I'm forced to KO with throws and f-tilt but I want to KO with Smash attacks. Problem is, Shulk's attacks do have **** shield stun in this mode and his weight gets reduced. F wat. So my attacks are unsafe, they're still relatively slow and now I'm lighter? It's not like everyone in a tourney rolls a lot which equates to a free d-smash. I find myself using shield+rage or jump more often now these days

Out of shield USmash. Sweetspot Bair. Offstage Fair. Offstage or Out of shield Air Slash.

It's also not like you're really risking anything by entering Smash after you lose a stock when you still need a kill or when you're 200 plus and are going to die Shield mode be damned.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Until you miss the ledge snap and get f-smashed.

Why the hell would you intentionally avoid the edge and what the hell kind of character are you facing that can use a forward smash at such a ludicrous distance.

 

[Masonomace]

Until you miss the ledge snap and get f-smashed.

Tell me 'bout it. Out of the several times AAS would be useful, it would be for this occasion. Even ledge-standing Counters can ruin your world especially when Jump & Speed are on cooldown. (That would never happen. . .right?)

My problem is once the oppenent gets inside shulks range and starts applying pressure its hard to deal with it. Jab is good if you're grounded, but that's assuming your facing the right way (or are turnarounds still 1 frame?) When its pressure in the air its a guessing game between vision and airdodge, as his aerials have pretty long startup time.

How do you guys deal with up close pressure, both grounded and aerial?

Koing has been an issue as well as I don't believe any of his throws kills and he can't punish (with a KO option) a roll instantly, so grab then throw offstage and go for the kill their seems to be the answer.

I'm liking shulk a lot and I'll continue to use him as my 3rd character and stalk these shulk boards ;D

Ohh Keith 'sup. I dig the familiar face, & Thanks for Stalking~

Some solutions for handling pressure that sounds obscure, but have slightly helped my situation include:

Grounded options I use:

• Jab-1
• Retreating Pivot Grab
• Perfect Pivoted Rapid Jab-1 (This can be difficult, but it may help)
• Turn-Around SH > N-air (N-air's start-up & active hit-box starts behind Shulk, even though it's lack of range, it's something)

These options are for positioning yourself in a more favorable situation that would alleviate the pressure you're against up-close-and-personal. This all varies with how much stage area you have & where it's occurring on-stage, but hope that helps.

Airborne options I use:

• AirDodge
• N-air if I'm faced backwards

So yeah. . .not much airborne options due to Shulk's aerials having a lot of start-up, but yeah. I would say F-air but it's not Marth F-air status because it has that slight start-up, & only N-air frontwards or backwards is slightly better because it starts from behind & low. I would say Vision but man, anytime I do Vision airborne it just doesn't work out for me. They either get slowed down too much & don't even reach me because their attack has enough range to it to not be so close to me, or that my air space isn't correct. Not saying it's not a good option since others use it, but from my personal experience with it, I don't have much success with it.

The only KO throws that are potentially going to net you a KO or two, would be D-throw, or B-throw while facing toward the stage. Though commonly B-throw is Shulk's strongest KO, it's got decent KO power, but you'll be using D-throw for KO'ing most of the time. Sooooooooometimes F-throw can be rogue & get you a KO, but don't count on it. Like Berserk mentioned, Smash augments your KO power & amplifies your chances of netting KOs, but when you take into consideration that:

1. It's highly unsafe on bubble shields, AND
   
2. It's damage output is cut in half

Ya either accept Smash & get around the setbacks by using Tilts such as U-tilt & F-tilt & Throws such as B-throw & D-throw reliably, or the drawbacks hinder your strategy of assuring KOs overall & you prefer to go back to Vanilla, use Shield+Rage, or Jump to open aerial cans of woop ass, gimping characters off-screen.

Ofc this all varies on the stage's size overall including the sideways blast lines, the ceiling whether it's high or low, or the pit below, but this goes without saying. Sorry if I sounded like a broken record.

Why the hell would you intentionally avoid the edge and what the hell kind of character are you facing that can use a forward smash at such a ludicrous distance.

Them Shulk Dittos.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

what is M2 [MonadoMasters] and why did someone with that tag online just DESTROY my Kirby with their Shulk. I got edge-guarded so effectively with Jump my spirit was crushed. Ran into two Shulks online today, exciting.

Also, Kirby is a dangerous match for Shulk. If he can copy our Monado OOOOOOOOOOH MAN GGS

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

You're just now learning about that? He also crouches jab and grab.

 

[Masonomace]

The last time I played a Kirby. .I could of swore he avoided my F-tilt by crouching as well, at least U-tilt & D-tilt are fine against him.

 

[Berserker.]

Out of shield USmash. Sweetspot Bair. Offstage Fair. Offstage or Out of shield Air Slash

Whelp, I was close minded. Forgot about the OoS options and off stage kills. Thanks for reminding me

Also, Kirby is a dangerous match for Shulk. If he can copy our Monado OOOOOOOOOOH MAN GGS

Shield Kirby ain't **** though. He's still slightly lighter than DK. Getting pivot grabbed by Speed Kirby sucks. Getting u-tilted to ~50% by Buster Kirby equates to frustration. Jump Kirby is dumb BUT it does make him lighter. That's something that a lot of people forget but it doesn't matter that much since he becomes a lot harder to hit because of Jump's buffs to aerial mobility and jump height

Good thing that Kirby's inhale isn't that good but it doesn't help that Shulk's smashes are free inhale opportunities. And that Kirby can crouch under some of Shulk's attacks. The match up still comes down to taking advantage of your range and zoning Kirby out as much as possible

what the hell kind of character are you facing that can use a forward smash at such a ludicrous distance.

Shulk and Mega Man


Anyone still keen on using Hyper arts because of Hyper Smash? Considering the smaller blast zones and other mechanics that were changed in the patch, I'd assume that Hyper Smash kills noticeably earlier now. The only problem with Hyper arts is that everything else isn't that good. Especially shield which becomes borderline useless

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Good thing that Kirby's inhale isn't that good but it doesn't help that Shulk's smashes are free inhale opportunities. And that Kirby can crouch under some of Shulk's attacks. The match up still comes down to taking advantage of your range and zoning Kirby out as much as possible

You, sir, have not encountered Jumping Inhale. That **** will gimp your balls off if he reads a double jump and it's nigh impossible to avoid for an entire stock.

 

[NairWizard]

Why the hell would you intentionally avoid the edge and what the hell kind of character are you facing that can use a forward smash at such a ludicrous distance.

I said *miss* the ledge snap. What part of the word *miss* implies "intentionally" to you?

Anyone who spotdodges the swing that has a reasonably sized f-smash can buffer a downward-tilted f-smash and hit you if you miss the autosnap. Granted, you shouldn't be missing the autosnap, but it can happen. I've also been *grabbed* and then grab released, and not getting to Jump Monado in time can be hilariously unfortunate.

 

[Berserker.]

You, sir, have not encountered Jumping Inhale. That **** will gimp your balls off if he reads a double jump and it's nigh impossible to avoid for an entire stock.

I'm glad I don't have to deal with that LMAO. The friend who uses Kirby didn't even unlock this custom yet so I'll have my fun while it lasts

Still, fml. Diddy is still a thing in every place in the damn planet. Except Texas. No one there uses Diddy except like 2 people

 

[NairWizard]

What part of Diddy vs. Shulk is hard? Actually curious. I play a Diddy in Grand Finals around here every so often, and while I prefer to use Pikachu, I don't feel super disadvantaged as Shulk.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

What part of Diddy vs. Shulk is hard? Actually curious. I play a Diddy in Grand Finals around here every so often, and while I prefer to use Pikachu, I don't feel super disadvantaged as Shulk.

You die at 70 to Dthrow -> Uair. You die at 85 if you air dodge and he Uairs you afterward. He combos you freely for about ~30% every time he grabs you. That's two grabs, one stray hit and another grab. Lost stock.

 

[Berserker.]

What part of Diddy vs. Shulk is hard? Actually curious. I play a Diddy in Grand Finals around here every so often, and while I prefer to use Pikachu, I don't feel super disadvantaged as Shulk.

It's not a super disadvantaged/70:30 match up. Diddy's aerials are dumb good and his throw combos are insane. By throw combos, I meant just d-throw->u-air. It's not the bananas that are the issue at all. His monkey flip is something I can deal with (Spotdodge). It's just the grab combos and quick damaging aerials. Too little risk for high reward and Shulk can't do much about it. Not saying Shulk's hopeless or anything

You die at 70 to Dthrow -> Uair. You die at 85 if you air dodge and he Uairs you afterward. He combos you freely for about ~30% every time he grabs you. That's two grabs, one stray hit and another grab. Lost stock.

If there's a percentage wherein D-throw->U-air doesn't work anymore then I'm not really feeling it. Uggggh man

 

[PokemonyeWest]

You're just now learning about that? He also crouches jab and grab.

Kirby's not a very popular character, I use Kirby sometimes but I never see anyone else use em

 

[Berserker.]

Kirby's not a very popular character, I use Kirby sometimes but I never see anyone else use em

Same case for me

 

[NairWizard]

That's fair/reasonable, but that's Diddy's strength in basically every MU. Shulk has strengths against him too. I don't think that it's in Shulk's favor or anything, but probably it's slight advantage: Diddy. The best thing about the MU is the range on Shulk's tilts and the ability to edgeguard with Jump.

I don't fastfall n-air against him because he's a very mobile ground character and he will run up and shield it so close that you can get shieldgrabbed or even just dashgrabbed/FH f-aired before you can throw out another aerial/jab. Instead I do a lot of walking back and forth and pressuring Diddy with tilts. Remember that grab armor is gone so he's not going to grab you unless you hit his shield at super close range (landing into him is the best way to accomplish this since you can't jab fast enough, so again don't aerial). Diddy loves to shield, so Buster is a good choice because he has a hard time punishing your tilts on his shield.

I don't use smash monado to KO Diddy because d-throw up-air is real as you guys have noted. Instead, I use Speed. Speed is a bad choice at low percents imo but a really good choice at higher percents because you want to grab him before he can grab you for the KO. If you can get him offstage with a throw from Speed, you can then run up and f-air the obviously incoming Monkey Flip (he always goes for that first to recover if he can). If he goes past Monkey Flip range then he's definitely going to go for rocketbarrel boost, so you can switch to Jump from here and dive deep to get the f-air KO (he has to charge it for it to be worth anything; you have to memorize the animation and react to it to time the swing of your f-air, otherwise you will miss and let him get away with a free angled up-b).

That's my approach anyway. Has worked to decent success against some high-level Diddys, but have yet to play Tyrant (best Diddy on my coast probably). If I did play Tyrant I would totally use Pikachu lol.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

The primary issue with the match-up, which I think is a little worse than that, is that Diddy doesn't have anything he has to use that is really punishable while Shulk requires commitment. This is Shulk's general issue, although it is more noticeable against good characters. I'm not complaining because this is the life I chose to lead, but Diddy basically just out-tiers Shulk in the match-up.

 

[NairWizard]

To some extent I agree: Shulk is strange because he's basically not good in neutral outside of a few specific tricks with arts (like Speed Art grabbing/pivot grabbing), and he's also not that great in disadvantage because he's easy to juggle and n-air doesn't break combos, and...wait, why do I play this character again?

Anyway, jokes, aside, the only matchup where I really think Shulk gets out-tiered is . This one is atrocious; you can't really edgeguard her either, so your advantage in advantage is, well, not one.

 

[kj22]

Tell me 'bout it. Out of the several times AAS would be useful, it would be for this occasion. Even ledge-standing Counters can ruin your world especially when Jump & Speed are on cooldown. (That would never happen. . .right?)

Ohh Keith 'sup. I dig the familiar face, & Thanks for Stalking~

Some solutions for handling pressure that sounds obscure, but have slightly helped my situation include:

Grounded options I use:

• Jab-1
• Retreating Pivot Grab
• Perfect Pivoted Rapid Jab-1 (This can be difficult, but it may help)
• Turn-Around SH > N-air (N-air's start-up & active hit-box starts behind Shulk, even though it's lack of range, it's something)

These options are for positioning yourself in a more favorable situation that would alleviate the pressure you're against up-close-and-personal. This all varies with how much stage area you have & where it's occurring on-stage, but hope that helps.

Airborne options I use:

• AirDodge
• N-air if I'm faced backwards

oh dang thanks for all the feedback! For killing I'll probably either use smash and try to go for a killing throw if I'm grounded. I'll need more practice with shulks aerials before I go chasing people offstage ;P

 

[kj22]

The primary issue with the match-up, which I think is a little worse than that, is that Diddy doesn't have anything he has to use that is really punishable while Shulk requires commitment. This is Shulk's general issue, although it is more noticeable against good characters. I'm not complaining because this is the life I chose to lead, but Diddy basically just out-tiers Shulk in the match-up.

Can't shulk space retreating nair's for days and theres nothing diddy can do about it? The diddy will try to dash shield and thats when you standing grab him!

...wish it was that easy haha. The higher tier the opponent, the more safe you have to be in general. It's a pain in the rear to be restricted to such few choices/have to let the other character do whatever they want and not be able to play your game.

The discipline required to play like this kind of reminds me of fighting icies...everybody had to change their strategy when they fought them. Everybody had to play their game. Strong characters usually force their opponents to play their game, and diddy kong is definitely make everybody play his game lol.

 

[NairWizard]

Can't shulk space retreating nair's for days and theres nothing diddy can do about it? The diddy will try to dash shield and thats when you standing grab him!

You can do this, actually, but you're basically giving up stage control every time you do. Diddy will advance a little bit more every time you retreat. He won't dash shield into your standing grab range. He'll just dash forward and wait for you to do that trick again, the one where you put yourself in the corner

 

[Masonomace]

Especially shield which becomes borderline useless

Objection! HShield survives Home-Run Bat. Okay seriously though. . .HMArts are insayian & HSmash is dope now that I'm using the custom more often, but I refrain from using it fully because of only 6 seconds, with a lot of cooldown time, waiting. Vanilla chose this life. Off-stage HSmash moments feel really good when you completely gimp recoveries, especially the above-average recoveries. (basically more than half of the cast)

oh dang thanks for all the feedback! For killing I'll probably either use smash and try to go for a killing throw if I'm grounded. I'll need more practice with shulks aerials before I go chasing people offstage ;P

Sorry but thanks for thanks, to attempt being extra helpful slightly?, Shulk strings F-air twice nicely when your drift-chasing after characters airborne, & U-air is an underrated move to use for frame-trapping upon landing. U-air's landing lag is the 2nd shortest so it's do-able. With Jump, you can attempt the Ken Combo in hopes you get a double sweetspotted D-air for that strong Meteor effect, otherwise you'll get the sourspot 2nd hit that sends them flying horizontally. . .which can net more success depending on the character's recovery.

What ya gotta think about mostly, is dat B-air, B-air is hotness & it's great. The sourspotted tip area can potentially gimp, & if you hit with B-air's sweetspot, then that's potentially a KO or more off-stage edge-guard time.

 

[kj22]

You can do this, actually, but you're basically giving up stage control every time you do. Diddy will advance a little bit more every time you retreat. He won't dash shield into your standing grab range. He'll just dash forward and wait for you to do that trick again, the one where you put yourself in the corner

noooo but thats when you roll behind him and pivot grab him and open up a can of whoop-...(;

I see what you're saying about giving up stage control slightly, but at least this is a "you can't punish/touch me while I'm doing this" situation and allows you to watch what the diddy is going to do. Also it can allow you to stall until you get the monado you need *coughspeedcough*

I see it akin to marth spacing retreating short hop fairs in brawl. Unless they hard commit, your opponent can't do shi...(;

This is more powerful when diddy's on the edge as well, since if he rolls/fairs/monkey flips he gets hit, most likely he'll jump up throw a banana and try to catch it and thats when you RAR bair him for trying such nonsense :D

Actually SH airdodging right as you leave the ground then pivot grabbing would beat (potentially catch) banana throws and avoid monkey flips and avoid fair and beat standing and shield ;o

 

[kj22]

Objection! HShield survives Home-Run Bat. Okay seriously though. . .HMArts are insayian & HSmash is dope now that I'm using the custom more often, but I refrain from using it fully because of only 6 seconds, with a lot of cooldown time, waiting. Vanilla chose this life. Off-stage HSmash moments feel really good when you completely gimp recoveries, especially the above-average recoveries. (basically more than half of the cast)

Sorry but thanks for thanks, to attempt being extra helpful slightly?, Shulk strings F-air twice nicely when your drift-chasing after characters airborne, & U-air is an underrated move to use for frame-trapping upon landing. U-air's landing lag is the 2nd shortest so it's do-able. With Jump, you can attempt the Ken Combo in hopes you get a double sweetspotted D-air for that strong Meteor effect, otherwise you'll get the sourspot 2nd hit that sends them flying horizontally. . .which can net more success depending on the character's recovery.

What ya gotta think about mostly, is dat B-air, B-air is hotness & it's great. The sourspotted tip area can potentially gimp, & if you hit with B-air's sweetspot, then that's potentially a KO or more off-stage edge-guard time.

haha there's alot about shulk I have to get use to...yes I've heard back air is amazing. I like upair but i usually get the bad landing lag for it, I'll need to figure out at what height to best use it at (Don't have a wii u or I'd be doing this myself, I am going to my second tourny on sunday though! ;D )

I wanna watch more shulk videos so I can see more of his greatness...

tbh I have alot of fun playing as shulk but at the same time I feel overwhelmed, like there's still limitless potential untapped...
from gimps to shield pressure to air traps, so much to learn, and I want to, I'm just like "where to start" o.o

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

To some extent I agree: Shulk is strange because he's basically not good in neutral outside of a few specific tricks with arts (like Speed Art grabbing/pivot grabbing), and he's also not that great in disadvantage because he's easy to juggle and n-air doesn't break combos, and...wait, why do I play this character again?

Anyway, jokes, aside, the only matchup where I really think Shulk gets out-tiered is . This one is atrocious; you can't really edgeguard her either, so your advantage in advantage is, well, not one.

Shulk's main draw is that when he ACTUALLY gets in, he's absolutely terrifying.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

You can do this, actually, but you're basically giving up stage control every time you do. Diddy will advance a little bit more every time you retreat. He won't dash shield into your standing grab range. He'll just dash forward and wait for you to do that trick again, the one where you put yourself in the corner

Or throw a banana at you.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

noooo but thats when you roll behind him and pivot grab him and open up a can of whoop-...(;

But Shulk's forward roll is ass cheeks. His back roll is passable, but don't use his forward roll much of ever.

 

[Berserker.]

The double and triple posts are strong atm

Objection! HShield survives Home-Run Bat. Okay seriously though. . .HMArts are insayian & HSmash is dope now that I'm using the custom more often, but I refrain from using it fully because of only 6 seconds, with a lot of cooldown time, waiting. Vanilla chose this life. Off-stage HSmash moments feel really good when you completely gimp recoveries, especially the above-average recoveries. (basically more than half of the cast)

HBuster... Eh I'm mixed. The knockback nerf though is massive.

Seriously, maybe using JUST HJump for recovering and HSmash for KO'ing is all I'll do wit HArts. The rest seem underwhelming. I think I'll stick to Vanilla for damage

 

[Masonomace]

haha there's alot about shulk I have to get use to...yes I've heard back air is amazing. I like upair but i usually get the bad landing lag for it, I'll need to figure out at what height to best use it at (Don't have a wii u or I'd be doing this myself, I am going to my second tourny on sunday though! ;D )

I wanna watch more shulk videos so I can see more of his greatness...

tbh I have alot of fun playing as shulk but at the same time I feel overwhelmed, like there's still limitless potential untapped...
from gimps to shield pressure to air traps, so much to learn, and I want to, I'm just like "where to start" o.o

Yeah you want to get either the first hit of U-air, or try getting both hits to come out before landing. The best & easiest way of doing this imo is to activate Speed mode, & buffer SH > U-air all day. You get both hits to come out just before landing & you can drift with this all you like. You may come to adore its usage for frame-trap landings forcing some to AirDodge, or not =P. The horizontal range of U-air is poor so you have to drift & aim accordingly.

But speaking of Diddy MU, I'm sure we know this but Speed mode against Bananas or with Bananas, is a good day. Anytime we're dashing / running past them we become almost impossible to be punished while forced-tripping on them. That's besides the main point but it's there. (Damnit I need to play against more Diddys)

The double and triple posts are strong atm

HBuster... Eh I'm mixed. The knockback nerf though is massive.

Seriously, maybe using JUST HJump for recovering and HSmash for KO'ing is all I'll do wit HArts. The rest seem underwhelming. I think I'll stick to Vanilla for damage

Same here. Vanilla is HMArt's life, whereas the HMArts activated are for that heated moment when you really need them. HShield would be very helpful surviving that launch, but a moment can last longer than 6 seconds so.

It also doesn't help that shield-stun is so low in this game anyone could shield-drop & punish you after your HSmash moves connect on-shield no matter what move it is. I feel people will just trade damage with your HBuster because of that knockback nerf, & really HJump & HSpeed are useful for all 6 seconds basically kinda-sorta.