Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[erico9001]

Hmm ok so air dodge is probably like 4 frames (basing off of brawl). That's good to know, but I'll need to make sure I don't do it too near to the ground or I'll just be punished again =/. Is counter really that quick on start up? Hmm, I wish dantarion's data dump had specials.

 

[Berserker.]

http://smashboards.com/threads/shulk-in-depth-guide-video.380580/

Needs to be in the OP. Some new things are in the guide. Like at high %'s, n-air to f-air in jump

 

[Monado Boy]

Well, a lot of you guys have probably been doing this for a long while, but I finally found a use for Monado Shield that I actually care about. (I hate it's lowered mobility) At low percents it's really good for avoiding Diddy Kong's D-Throw>U-Air string.

 

[Zephil]

Hey guys I have been checking the issue with the C-stick affecting the movement of the character while doing aerials.

I tried to see the difference using normal C-stick and c-stick changed to tilts but I dont see difference in Shulk's movement in the air.

Do you guys notice any difference and if you notice then which one you prefer or recommend?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Then you're one framing your inputs on smash stick. Good job.



So, I have finally returned to the boards to request assistance. I have not lost a tournament since the Wii U version launched (giving Shulk significant assistance), but I am beginning to run into significant problems when playing top players online. I recently got a chance to play Will and his DK pretty much stuffed me cold on edge guarding him, which is where I get most of my kills. That combined with his weight highlighted my poor buster play. After people adjust to the reduced knockback and recognize the potential to be caught with Shulk's strings, they begin to DI correctly and I don't get much. As a result, I don't use Buster as often as I believe I should. I nickel and dime in neutral with jump and speed and then kill outright in Smash or edge guard.

This brings me to my question: what specific low percent strings should I be looking for with buster? Specifically out of throws, DTilt, and UTilt. Most everything seems to be cut off unless I tag a single Utilt if they just DI up and away.

 

[Leeyam]

Two questions,

1. What situations is Jump useful in?

2. What successful setups are there for killing people with upB?

 

[Raziek]

I do have experience with fighting Robin.

It's a ****ing joke.

Aerial attacks alone can shut down Robin's projectiles, Robin moves slowly (for example the dash is on par with Zelda), Robin has very weak attacks, and literally every Monado Art can stop Robin. It's not easy just for Shulk, it's easy for everyone. Which makes me really question why people praise that shrimp.

I would like to play you in this match-up. It's clear you don't understand Robin at all or how Robin should be approaching the match-up.

Which Robin players have you even played?

 

[Berserker.]

I was like, "Raziek? That's weird. Why would he post in the---- Oh he didn't see THAT post, did he?" I checked and I was right. Lol

This brings me to my question: what specific low percent strings should I be looking for with buster? Specifically out of throws, DTilt, and UTilt. Most everything seems to be cut off unless I tag a single Utilt if they just DI up and away.

I don't think you can get some follow ups out of dtilt, utilt or even his throws with buster. Buster reduces too much hitsun for a string to be possible. It's only nair to jab, or nair to grab for buster. I think buster combos are possible at higher percentages but usually at that point, you should be going for the kill instead of racking up damage

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I'm talking strings, not tight combos. What to do to trap DI up and out?

Also, Raz is my fault. I apologize.

 

[Berserker.]

I'm talking strings, not tight combos. What to do to trap DI up and out?

Also, Raz is my fault. I apologize.

Nah it's cool

My bad for the correction. I have the same problems with you regarding that so I also need an answer. Buuut, maybe this video might help (and entertain). My bad about not being able to answer you directly

Edit: I almost forgot. There was this:

my go to with Buster at low percents is Up throw > Up tilt > regrab > up tilt (at this point you can usually uptilt again if they don't DI appropriately) then I just reset to neutral. It does insane damage and usually is a free setup into an easy Smash KO

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Up Throw -> Utilt beats everything some characters can do except air dodge in which case Shulk can regrab. That regrab, however, is completely based on the opponent reacting poorly. An out of shield option or a roll will stuff that cold. Dtilt or a roll read can cover most of that and doing one can condition for the other.

In general, most every good character just has options against that sort of shenaniganry. I'm fairly sure Shulk should mostly be using his other forms in neutral scenarios and only using Buster when behind and needing a comeback or when ahead and at high percent looking to extend a lead. In Buster itself, I'm thinking you should mostly just be looking to win neutral.

 

[Berserker.]

Up Throw -> Utilt beats everything some characters can do except air dodge in which case Shulk can regrab. That regrab, however, is completely based on the opponent reacting poorly. An out of shield option or a roll will stuff that cold. Dtilt or a roll read can cover most of that and doing one can condition for the other.

In general, most every good character just has options against that sort of shenaniganry. I'm fairly sure Shulk should mostly be using his other forms in neutral scenarios and only using Buster when behind and needing a comeback or when ahead and at high percent looking to extend a lead. In Buster itself, I'm thinking you should mostly just be looking to win neutral.

Hm... I usually start out with buster and poke their shield, get my damage off spacing attacks and grabs. I don't know if that was a thing in the old version. I wasn't entirely sure if buster attacks were safe on shield. It's only now that I realized it. Were buster attacks safe in the last patch?

I also opt for jump or speed at the start when I feel like it. Interestingly, a lot of people are beginning to encourage defensive play with jump now because it's Shulk's most fragile art at the moment (Weight decrease and it receives 22% more damage). Speed is just ridiculously good. The damage output is almost identical to vanilla Shulk back in 1.03

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

It's just so unsafe to be in Buster.

Play with me some time, Berserker. Add me on Skype (cpt_ryker). I can't play at the moment, but I'd like to play you.

 

[Berserker.]

It's just so unsafe to be in Buster.

Play with me some time, Berserker. Add me on Skype (cpt_ryker). I can't play at the moment, but I'd like to play you.

Ah. I'd love to but pardon me

I don't use skype and my wifi is garbage so I'm usually play with other players locally without being aware of their skill level (Basically, if they beat me, they're good. If they get blown out hard, I think they aren't that serious). Maybe if I had the Wii U version and that ethernet adapter people were talking about, I think I'd like to play. Yeeeah, at the moment I'm stick with the 3DS version because... I have to wait until Christmas or next year.

Yet again, a lot of big pardons

 

[DavemanCozy]

I do have experience with fighting Robin.

It's a ****ing joke.

Aerial attacks alone can shut down Robin's projectiles, Robin moves slowly (for example the dash is on par with Zelda), Robin has very weak attacks, and literally every Monado Art can stop Robin. It's not easy just for Shulk, it's easy for everyone. Which makes me really question why people praise that shrimp.

I agree with everything you said about Pit, but man I don't think Robin is weak. He's got that Levin Sword, some of his attacks can KO us at 90%, and this is Shulk who's generally pretty heavy and survives a good amount of time. I'm curious what kind of weak attacks you're talking about, and if you could elaborate more on how you play said matchup it would be nice.

I'll admit, I haven't done this matchup with Shulk, I usually just go Fox. Even then, when I got to Toronto for tourneys, I have yet to play a Robin that has given me a challenge (not that there aren't good Robin players here: I just haven't played one yet). But hey, I just gotta give credit to that shrimp, that Levin Sword hurts!

 

[Berserker.]

I don't know if I'd call him a shrimp. There are some known players are winning with Robin (Nairo, Xzax, Trela come into mind). The results can do the talking, but I don't wanna digress

I'm at the same boat with you. I barely know much about how to deal with Robin

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Its called Monado Speed.
You can weave between Arcfires and hell catch him mid cast with the bloody thing. You out range him in CQC as well, so you mind your spacing. 80% of my issue with Robin was 1) poor spacing my part 2) mistiming against his Air dodges that I already "knew" were coming, which lead to me drawing out fights to my demise.

 

[Claxus]

Speed could be a bit risky depending on the distance. Arcfire does have some cast time, but it's really not that much, and it can still hit you point blank, sometimes even as you grab him. And if you block it, it's a pretty mean frame trap. If it's already ignited, Speed Shulk will have a hard time jumping over it, and I'm not sure if it's even possible to roll through it because it has a deceptively horizontal hitbox. Despite that you want to close the gap against Robin, I feel restricting yourself more horizontally is just playing his own game.

I like Jump, because it basically bypasses and counters Arcfire. Having so much vertical control renders Arcfire essentially useless, and that's one of his main tools. If he uses it while/as you jump, it's extremely easy to punish him with a fastfall attack. And Jump also gives his thunder attacks hard time, reducing it mostly to just trying to punish your landings, and since you can close the gap so fast from various angles, he won't have an easy time charging it.

Playing in the air will likely try and make them make use of those Levin aerials, though, so you have to be wary of that. But at the same time Shulk still can outrange him fairly easily in an aerial fight, so throwing out D-air when you know they're going for their U-air can tip the scales.

And of course, spacing is key. Robin has no real ways to punish ranged attacks like N-air and F-air, as all his fast options are pretty bad on range, except for maybe the first two stages of his thunder attacks which aren't all that harmful.

 

[Luco]

Heya Shulksters, I just wanted to ask you guys, how much lighter will Shulk become roughly during his jump, buster and smash MArts?

I'm umm, totally just curious... DEFINITELY not looking to Bthrow you or anything!

(it's k though I still think you guys represent one of our harder MUs )

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Smash Shulk according to Aerodrome operates between Marth and Peach in Weight, with some sort of margin of error he may be Marth of Peach's weight.

Jump is unknown but it's absolutely less drastic on KO's then Smash.
http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-weight-rankings.367479/

If I were to hazard a guess around Pit or Ness weight?

Even still I can't put that as how the KO's will workout.

 

[Luco]

Smash Shulk according to Aerodrome operates between Marth and Peach in Weight, with some sort of margin of error he may be Marth of Peach's weight.

Jump is unknown but it's absolutely less drastic on KO's then Smash.
http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-weight-rankings.367479/

If I were to hazard a guess around Pit or Ness weight?

Even still I can't put that as how the KO's will workout.

Thanks Penguin! That really helps me out.

You guys are boss btw, Shulk is really good :D

 

[NairWizard]

It's just so unsafe to be in Buster.

Play with me some time, Berserker. Add me on Skype (cpt_ryker). I can't play at the moment, but I'd like to play you.

Buster increases the damage taken by 13% but doesn't increase your opponent's safety on shield, so it's not super unsafe
Buffs your own damage by 40% and increases your safety on shield on the flipside, so it's actually probably safer than most modes. Did some research on shield safety earlier, Buster tilts are a *lot* safer. A lot of attacks which can punish you in other modes (especially Speed since Speed has lower shield safety) can't after you whiff on shield in Buster.

Buster is basically about neutral

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Shield is hella unsafe.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Shield is hella unsafe.

It's only unsafe if you try to use it like Speed or Jump.

 

[erico9001]

I just realized that I get grabbed so much online due to lag - preventing my spot dodge from activating in time. I need to find a way to do more local matches...

 

[NairWizard]

Shield is hella unsafe.

I meant shield safety as in safety on shield, not Shield Monado, think you may have misread

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Wheeeeee namesearching brought me hereeeeee

Mainly wanted to say an updated monado art topic coming soon (very soon). I got the game a few days ago for Wii U, but I've been playing it for once so that's been nice.

Also regarding Shulk's viability, I personally think the buffs he got were very unusual. I don't think he was terrible to begin with, and I don't think buffing everything by 1% is very helpful.

 

[Berserker.]

So much name searching. So much purple tags

It's only unsafe if you try to use it like Speed or Jump.

I think that's why I was starting to be negative about it. Dammit. I still feel a bit like a ping pong ball in shield, even though that's like 1/2 it's purpose

Mainly wanted to say an updated monado art topic coming soon (very soon). I got the game a few days ago for Wii U, but I've been playing it for once so that's been nice.

Take your time dude. We know you're doing a lot and a lot of people are grateful for your effort

I just realized that I get grabbed so much online due to lag - preventing my spot dodge from activating in time. I need to find a way to do more local matches...

Get people to learn about competitive Smash. That's what I do. Have some serious sets with them when they get used to it. It will slowly grow once you get more friends to play :3

 

[Masonomace]

Heyy I'm back.

http://smashboards.com/threads/shulk-in-depth-guide-video.380580/

Needs to be in the OP. Some new things are in the guide. Like at high %'s, n-air to f-air in jump

Does this mean we can take down ZeRo's Analysis on Shulk?

Well, a lot of you guys have probably been doing this for a long while, but I finally found a use for Monado Shield that I actually care about. (I hate it's lowered mobility) At low percents it's really good for avoiding Diddy Kong's D-Throw>U-Air string.

Shield mode for sure disrupts the player's percentage-based setups they fish for. The issue is the moment they adjust to Shield mode's heavily reduced knockback they'll adapt by juggling with combos that would never usually work before. This can be also said for Jump Buster or Smash yet Jump & Buster make you take more damage. Smash mode does not, so I'd like if we used Smash mode as an early-game-combo-disrupting tactic.

Two questions,
1. What situations is Jump useful in?
2. What successful setups are there for killing people with upB?

1. Jump is useful for edge-guarding, recovering, star KO fishing, going balls deep for that gimp off-screen, air combos, stuff like that. The other situation Jump is useful in is not getting hit, because taking additional damage with reduced weight makes you ez to KO.

2. This varies, though Buster U-tilts > Air Slash is fine to an extent. There's not much setups atm I believe, I'm still working on-and-off for Shulk's footstooling setups with Air Slash.

It's just so unsafe to be in Buster.

I can believe this because the person's bubble shield you wanted to poke down with Buster, is now compromised when they spot-dodge, leaving Buster wide open to a punish if I'm implying you weren't spacing properly.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Buster is unsafe as a concept. You take increased damage and deal increased damage for a period of time without gaining any combat advantage until you have gained an advantaged state by scoring a hit. I am strongly of the opinion that the match should never be started in Buster unless you have a strong inherent combat advantage from the onset. It seems a far better idea to start the match with Jump or Speed which net you advantages over standard Shulk in the neutral game. Use those to get your lead and set up for your kill. Use them to GET your kill if possible. Buster seems much better as a concept when used from a point where the increased damage you take will not be a major factor. Times such as when you have a stock lead or when you have already reached 90+%. Then the added benefit from scoring a hit in Buster outweigh the risk by such a margin that there is less of a reason not to.

tl;dr

No matter the difference between the profit you and your opponent get when a hit is scored with Shulk in Buster, the fact you receive increased damage is a risk. Your time is better spent using those stances that give you an edge in actually getting a hit and using Buster actively during periods of time where that risk is mitigated.

 

[Berserker.]

The worst feeling when using buster is when the opponent deals more damage to you than how much damage you deal to the opponent. Buster's advantages are all in the numbers mostly. Of course, buster attacks are safe on shield. You can take advantage of that, but behind the attractive numbers, you're basically playing as Vanilla Shulk with less knockback and more damage and more safety. Buster and smash are the two arts that feel somewhat identical to vanilla but I guess you can thank the untouched mobility for that.

I'm not discouraging the use of buster. I'm only merely saying that it's not a brain dead art at all. Your attacks become safe on shield. That's a huge plus, yes. Some attacks in buster are unsafe on HIT. I already said once that there are some cases wherein buster is safer on shield than on hit which is further exposed when using hyper buster. Think about this: You're using buster f-airs to poke. If that hits, the hitsun won't be that much and f-air's landing lag (although reduced from 1.03) will be punished hard thanks to the knockback/hitsun nerf.

I still love me buster though. I'll admit, the sheer numbers are successfully tempting. Just rack up damage first before using it. Or use it when you feel like it. It's 100% possible to just go in a match without using buster

 

[Masonomace]

Buster mode at the start of a match is for sure unsafe. Though any moment that's in your favor such as gaining stage control from the center of the stage, or under BF's platforms awaiting their landing, opens up the momentary advantage Buster may score more of a lead than before. Jump or Speed would do well in controlling the stage too, but your opponent's health is a factor too, which may lead to the idea of using Buster being plausible if it were in the combo range. To be safe about it entirely & waiting for a stock lead until thinking about Buster is something I can dig, but if the 90% is considered too dangerous, I'll stick to being a Shield man.

I'd talk about Jump going in the same hand that Buster goes into, since they both take additional damage except Jump takes more, buuuut we don't need to. Good read Ryker, you too berserk.

EDIT: Trading damage as an option for Buster is something we shouldn't be doing, unless we know their damages for everything & we know your damages for everything. But most of the time, don't think about trading evar.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

Buster against some characters is frankly suicide and should be avoided altogether unless of course you are very in control of the match. All the hardbodies, Ganondorf specifically, should only be dealt with using an alternation of Shield/Speed I think. All it would take is a proper powershield on any of Shulk's many unsafe moves for a world of pain to fall on our heads.

Also, what do you guys think about using Mumble or something to discuss Shulk strategies and the like?

 

[Berserker.]

Wait until you use Hyper buster. You'll laugh at how incredibly safe his attacks are on shield and how incredibly unsafe his attacks are on hit. You can probably get n-air on shield to grab for free (I think) but if I were the enemy, I'd rather take the hit and exploit the hell out of Shulk's -35% defense

Also, what do you guys think about using Mumble or something to discuss Shulk strategies and the like?

What's your usual strategy with Shulk? We all have different ways of playing him. I mean, someone uses shield 100% of the time in this boards

Edit: Buster is still awesome gois. I don't want anyone getting wrong ideas about me bashing on buster. I love buster. I just don't think it's brain dead at all but it has very notable advantages. It's very deadly if you're precise and safe with it.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

Usually I start off matches by immediately going into Speed. If against a character with a good projectile game, I might opt to Jump. A mixup I sometimes employ is using Speed, running right past the opponent, then doing a SH Bair and after that hits, throwing. If I was better at cancelling my MArts I could probably be able to switch to Buster and pull of some silly grab/regrab combo. But with Speed active I mostly focus on controlling the air right in front of/on top of me and grabbing a lot. There's not a character that can outrun Shulk save another Shulk with the same MArt active. D-Throw into SH nair is a combo at lower percents with Speed active, at least I've hit it in matches a few times. Also, playing a bit recklessly and unpredictably is favorable in this MArt because you can use hit-and-run tactics pretty effectively.

Once I've racked up enough damage (Usually anything higher than 60%) I switch to Buster and begin playing defensively. Attempting to snuff approaches with D-Tilts and F-Tilts. Spacing is important when using this MArt, I like to be within F-Smash tipper range and not any closer. I've got no reason to approach with Buster active. It's only something I use when I have a life-lead.

Around 100% is free fodder for Smash. Dash attack KOs, F-Tilt KOs, all smash attacks, and Bair can KO pretty well.

If however I'm on the losing end and need to mount a comeback, my strategy is about the same but I use Shield a lot, and try to stay away from attempting to have an air game off-stage since it gets you gimped easy. Middle of the stage is the best place to use it I think.

Also, DON'T FORGET ABOUT VISION!! It's a move I don't throw out unless I'm guaranteed a nice launch or KO from it, which is why using it in conjunction with Smash tends to be my best bet. Spot-dodging is preferable but Vision can counter projectiles. Using the Forward version of Vision travels farther I think? This is especially important against characters like Mega Man, Lucario, et al. A poorly spaced projectile can spell their end and surprisingly low percents. Just try countering Mega Man's fully charged F-Smash when he's around 50% with Smash active. Wheeeeeeeeew.

D-Tilt to throw is a setup I like to use to get a throw while applying offensive pressure. Shulk sadly lacks in any decent throw setups.

 

[erico9001]

Theoretically, I think the reason Buster is worse at the start of the match is it's usually easier to combo at low percents and also because you have not had time to read and understand your opponent. Additionally, against many opponents your knockback is too low. I think buster at the start is okay for Jigglypuff though - she's light and I find Jigglys to be somewhat predictable.

I have tried using MShield at the start of battle, and the result was pretty much nonstop Utilts from the opponent (I think it was either Mario or Link). It may be good against certain MU's though, for instance I think someone brought up Shulk can get out of Diddy's annoying dthrow combo. Something else I think could work is maybe Shulk can get out of anohter Shulk's u-throw, Utilt combo.
-
A thought I have about MShield in general - opponents may be more likely to approach if you go into Shield. Not only does it force you into a defensive style, if the opponent realizes that it may also force them into an aggressive style. You could use MShield to fish out approaches - and you're by no means required to stay in MShield once they change into an aggressive style.
--
Smash at the start is interesting - it does let you get out of combos... but you do half damage yourself. On average you would need to do twice as many hits to make up for the art. If you assume you and the opponent deal the same damage, you would need to hit twice as much as they do to be level with them. This seems unlikely..

I would say most often MSpeed and MJump are the "safest" in terms of working for most match-ups, but Shield or Buster may be advantageous depending on the situation. I don't know about using Smash early on...

 

[Bittersweet]

Originally when I started with Shulk, I -- like most people, probably -- started using the generic Bustersmash strategy. However, as of recently, I've actually won more with only MSpeed, MJump, and the occasional MShield at high percentages on both sides. MBuster and MSmash seem way too risky for someone with Shulk's attack speed. Increased mobility seems like what Shulk needs more than more attack power.

 

[FlareHabanero]

My main problem with relying on Buster and Smash is that it becomes predictable. A savvy opponent can take advantage of the weaknesses, causing it to become a liability. So much so I can even argue it's a scrub tactic, because it sounds great on paper but it doesn't solve every single problem that you will face. Buster and Smash can't fix stage control, camping, recovery, defense, and in some cases (ironically) offense.

 

[SoniCraft]

This is just a topic I wanna bring up real quick: Optimal Doubles MArts?

Does anyone think that a teammate, or any specific teammate could justify using other arts more often or less often? For example, what if you had a Diddy on your team, and you could follow up a dthrow up air combo with a more guaranteed Buster hit for some crazy damage. Or maybe turn on Smash a little earlier with hopes of getting a good edgeguard if your teammate is cooperating properly. Just some ideas I'm throwing around; I don't think I'm well-versed enough with Shulk to have any strong opinions.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I'd talk about Jump going in the same hand that Buster goes into, since they both take additional damage except Jump takes more, buuuut we don't need to. Good read Ryker, you too berserk.

Jump is not as useful as Speed overall, but match-up dependent is a great tool in neutral. However, Jump's real strength is in allowing you to jump around like an idiot waiting for Speed or Buster or Smash or Shield. That and being able to switch to it in order to recover or go deep after knocking an opponent off stage.

Man, seeing everyone talk about being able to play so cautiously and gratuitous use of Shield is making me wish I didn't end up playing against Robin, ROB, Greninja, Lucario, Rosalina, Villager, and Link. Shield as but a desperate attempt to hold your stock longer against a character with decent speed and a projectile is just asking to gain percent and be back where you started.