Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[erico9001]

Vanilla's DACG was slightly, sliiiiightly more distance than a dash grab but meh.

Yeah, in 1/4x speed they seem to go nearly exactly the same distance if I use from the middle of FD.

Oo!! I just found something!

Shulk has huge grab range if in MSpeed and WALKING. He continues to slide as the grab starts out. This is great considering Shulk's walk speed in MSpeed seems to be a little faster than his run speed in Vanilla.

This is, of course, similar to how Shulk continues to slide with his Smash attacks used from this walking mode.

-

This has lead me to another discovery!

If your Monado Art cancels while you are walking, you will walk the same speed you were in the last Monado Art. So you can walk at MSpeed speed while Vanilla. Additionally, you do not need to be going full speed for it to work. You can be walking really slow with MSpeed, have it cancel, then put the walk at full speed and you will be at the full speed for MSpeed.

This is the same for running, but you have less control over your speed while running (but if you had great timing skills, still could mean something).

 

[TheHopefulHero]

That's importatnt to know for, especially when it comes to approaching opponents. Time to test this stuff in the lab to make use of it.

 

[Masonomace]

If your Monado Art cancels while you are walking, you will walk the same speed you were in the last Monado Art. So you can walk at MSpeed speed while Vanilla. Additionally, you do not need to be going full speed for it to work. You can be walking really slow with MSpeed, have it cancel, then put the walk at full speed and you will be at the full speed for MSpeed.

This is the same for running, but you have less control over your speed while running (but if you had great timing skills, still could mean something).

That's familiar with the times I'm recovering with Jump or Speed on, & as the MArt de-activates itself, my air speed carries over, but when I DoubleJump it reverted the air speed factor. Weird, I'll have to mess around with the carried over movement from Jump Speed & Shield too.

 

[meleebrawler]

Just gonna say that I used Power Vision for the first time today and that thing is BROKEN. I KO'd a Fox at like 63% damage. Ridiculous.

Everyone seems to scream "OP" every time they see Power Vision.

Nobody seems to see the drawbacks: the active frames become ridiculously
short after the first use, meaning you can't reliably escape trouble
like with the default. Short matches definitely help mask this weakness,
since what does great deterioration matter when your opponent has no lives left.
The less stocks in a game, the better Power Vision becomes as an option.

Answer me this: Did you ever land another one after the initial use?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Everyone seems to scream "OP" every time they see Power Vision.

Nobody seems to see the drawbacks: the active frames become ridiculously
short after the first use, meaning you can't reliably escape trouble
like with the default. Short matches definitely help mask this weakness,
since what does great deterioration matter when your opponent has no lives left.
The less stocks in a game, the better Power Vision becomes as an option.

Answer me this: Did you ever land another one after the initial use?

You dont need to land a second one because they are dead.


K question.
Is it the case with Vision that forward visions have a sour and sweetspot, while regular visions also have a sour and sweetspot?

Eg. Forward Power vision Sweetspot 20, sour 17. Regular powervision sweetspot 17, sourspot 14%?

It may be that Forward Powervision hits enemies on Frame 26, compared to Forward regular/dash vision hitting on frame 25. it seems like the most minor detail but when I searched Mastercore 2.

I found a segment that looked like it contained the vision data and thats what it showed :o
Starting from 26A if anyone wants to check
http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore2/index.php?char=shulk&mode=view104#subaction-270

 

[Fernosaur]

Am I the only one to begin thinking Shulk's moveset is pretty mediocre? I mean yeah he's got incredible range and the Monado Arts are pretty cool assets, but the moveset design in general leaves a lot to be desired in terms of hitbox placement and specially speed.

Anyone else?

Has Zelda forever tainted me into only seeing the flaws of the characters I like? :'D

Edit: I think that's the main reason the higher tiers are probably gonna be a pain in the ass for Shulk. He might outrange them, but he'll never be fast enough to keep his space for long and not get hit by, say, Diddy's aerials. Also, our current metagame revolves around like basically four moves with variations coming from MArts. Nair, Fair, Ftilt and Dtilt. Throw Utilt in there sometimes. Smashes are slow, they're incredibly punishable, and even though Fsmash has the longest range in the game, in pro play it's gonna be rare to actually see it land, specially on characters with little ending lag on their attacks.

Not to say he's not viable, though. I was just thinking about all the disadvantages he has.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

He does have considerable lag/start-up.

 

[Xeiros]

That is essentially Shulk's primary weakness. Due to both the delayed activation time of many of his attacks coupled with the recovery frames of aerials in general it is in actuality disadvantageous from him to approach. Patience as a Shulk player is vital.

Because grabs statistically beat both Shulk's aerial approach options as well as his vision counter, characters with reliable throw follow ups give him the most trouble thanks again to the difference in recovery frames in general between attacking in the air versus on the ground.

It doesn't matter as much that his Monado has impressive range when all the other player has to do is take advantage of the defensive option that allows them to react and counterattack before your recovery frames are up. Shulk in neutral is an iffy situation.

All of his arts either make his weakness worse by increasing the damage he takes or lowering his weight or simply weaken the overall impact of a successful string of hits. You can whip out buster for higher damage or zoom about with speed or jump, but you cannot escape just how heavily the Monado forces you to commit to almost every attack you make.

When Shulk is the one on the offensive (actively approaching and putting out hit-boxes) while the opponent is not in hit-stun, he's risking more than his opponent. Unfortunately he lacks a reliable means to encourage or outright force a good chunk of the cast to approach him instead.

Luckily he has one trick up his sleeve. The Monado Art Cancel. The ability to eleminate the recovery frames on an attack does wonders for Shulk's ability to react after a whiffed or shielded swing of the Monado. Unfortunately. it's neither practical nor does it mesh at all with his parameter changing play-style. At best, it's useful for a surprise attack every so often, but that's it.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Hmm? I use the reality of speed to approach with Grabs.
The ability to react at Mid/Close range to Monado speed is fairly limited. Then throw in aerials because the grabs have made sitting in shield impractical which leaves rolling/spotdodge & attack. We can out range their attack, so all thats comfortably left is to roll/spot dodge. They can attempt to shield but its guesswork because of our rush from mid-range.
Shulks grab speed is competitive with everyone elses. Sure there are a couple 6 frame grabs to his 7 but this isn't that large a deal for normal discussion.

Like you said Monado art cancel isn't very practical. It's also not a true reality for Decisive Monado Arts.
Speed is though.

Projectile users disrupt speed however, which makes your work harder. Even still Monado Speed puts his ground mobility in the top 4/5 within the game out of 51 characters and he carries that momentum into the air.
It's not that bad. From Mid-range you can end up grabbing a Robin mid-arcfire.

 

[Fernosaur]

Yeah that's more or less what I was thinking. He has no real approaches and he also cannot force approaches himself. His only real advantage is the range of the Monado but having large attacks doesn't get you anywhere if they're slow. Even in the defensive he's not stellar, specially against faster characters, because his attacks are actually VERY slow to come out. I can see how this isn't necessarily a problem against characters that rely more heavily on CQC like the Fire Emblems, Ness or Mac, but I think in the long run he's gonna have a very hard time against campers and ninja characters. Tbh I only see him going down the tiers in the future.

Also, agree on Art cancelling. It's an interesting gimmick at best.

Edit: Oh, and about Speed. It is great for CQCs, as I said, but it's fairly useless against campers, and don't even get me started on banana peels. :'D

 

[Berserker.]

Am I the only one to begin thinking Shulk's moveset is pretty mediocre? I mean yeah he's got incredible range and the Monado Arts are pretty cool assets, but the moveset design in general leaves a lot to be desired in terms of hitbox placement and specially speed.

Anyone else?

Moveset design being lacking? Not sure about that at all

Shulk's primary weakness is his attack speed being slow. Well, not ****ing slow but slow. It's not the start up that's bothersome (for me at least), it's more of the ending lag that's pretty much dumb on most of his ground attacks. His aerials come out pretty late and his fastest attack comes out from frame 5(?) which is his jab 1. He doesn't handle pressure that well. That's also another disadvantage he has.

Instead of focusing on his disadvantages, you might as well live the life you chose and space/play defensively which can radically vary depending on which art you switched to.

Yeah that's more or less what I was thinking. He has no real approaches and he also cannot force approaches himself. His only real advantage is the range of the Monado but having large attacks doesn't get you anywhere if they're slow. Even in the defensive he's not stellar, specially against faster characters, because his attacks are actually VERY slow to come out. I can see how this isn't necessarily a problem against characters that rely more heavily on CQC like the Fire Emblems, Ness or Mac, but I think in the long run he's gonna have a very hard time against campers and ninja characters. Tbh I only see him going down the tiers in the future

I think we found your problem then. You're trying to rush down with him which is only remotely possible with speed (and jump sort of). Mid-range imo is the best way to play with Shulk even though I think his defense is already good (Mid-range+Buster). More importantly, you're actually having an iffy time against projectile campers with speed which is pretty odd at best. Although some people just go for jump because you can literally just jump over mountains with the art, like what Chrono said, it's not that bad. Your given an air mobility boost and a ground speed boost. Use it to your advantage. Dash to shield btw

If you find his defense to be not stellar then we really do have a problem. Not saying that you suck or anything. It's just that I'm not sure how I can answer this tbh even though I fully disagree

EDIT: U-tilt is an anti-air. F-tilt and D-tilt have huge range so space with them. You can wall out anyone with f-air's insane range or n-air also. B-air is a great poke. D-smash or a drifting n-air works very well against rolls


Lastly, it should be noted that rising f-air AC's (F-air's lag isn't horrible anymore) and n-air's landing lag is at 12 frames which is good in comparison to most Landing lag of aerials in the game

 

[Masonomace]

and don't even get me started on banana peels. :'D

Don't get you started on Banana Peels? Pish pash I'd want that~

If you have trouble with Banana Peels on the ground, you have several means of picking them up in Speed mode:

• Running to it, pressing A to grab it, & dodge roll away to be safe (you can do all of this in quick succession) (PM if needed)
• SH > N-air (The N-air catches the Banana Peel as you're rising)
• SH > F-air (a bit unsafe albeit if spaced by retreating with it, you're very safe)
• FH > F-air Z-catch (The F-air catches the Banana Peel as you're rising) (And you can throw the Banana Peel after your F-air)
• Falling Z-catch upon landing without aerial (Do this as you're FF'ing to the ground & press Z)
• Landing N-air Item-catch (Example: F-air to zone the air & then input N-air upon landing to catch the Banana Peel)

I haven't explored everything we can do with a Banana Peel while Speed mode is active, but there are some cool things we can do with it, such as JCIT (Jump Canceled Item Throw) which is some extra sliding distance.

 

[Berserker.]

Lastly, Xeiros said patience and I agree with him on this one. Be patient. Don't be careless with any of his attacks

 

[Bittersweet]

I seem to have a thing for characters that require a lot of patience. Shulk, Ganondorf, Mewtwo in Melee... And I can't play the faster-paced characters like the Ninjas at all.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Im not a very patient Shulk when I think about it. I was when I started, and was a big fan of Shield as a result.
I spent too much time in Speed to be patient, and there are too many characters with projectiles/zoning options that bring you inward.

General grab speed is either 6 or 7 frames (tethers/Zelda have twice that), Shulk has 7 frames.
Dash grab is what 9?
When you are about a Back-airs distance from someone in Speed, a grab is a pretty strong offensive option, and if they roll they reposition themself out of your grasp. They have to read the Grab for a spot dodge/attack, which is easier said then done because you are in speed. You would assume then that being in Speed telegraphs grabs but it doesn't because all your other options are still applicable. Speed just emphasizes the threat of a grab to the point that it also inherently opens up your other options.

Patience is for the other modes. Speed has to use its namesake, and while you can do so defensively, I think defensive speed play is just not as strong as offensive speed play.

Fortunately, speed doesn't have a % threshold where it falls off like Buster/Smash or damage received increases that make you more likely to KO. So you can use it whenever, wherever. The damage loss is meager given 1.04 changes.

Some Shulks can use Buster really well offensive/defensively. I can't, because I don't spend as much time in Buster. If Im not in For Glory im in Decisive Speed.

 

[Masonomace]

Did some sliiiiiight updates to the Damage Data Tables. Basically the 2nd hits of all of the Air Slashes don't have a sourspot damage, & only the 1st hits of every Air Slash has sweet & sourspots. Also I did take another look at the Dantarion MasterCore info @ ChronoPenguin & inputted the Visions having sweet & sourspots in the Forward input.

Speed imo is better off as an aggressive grounded MArt, although Speed can be utilized in more ways. Imo Shield should be the more defensive grounded MArt than Speed, & Buster can be more aggressive than Shield, leaving Jump to be that rogue airborne madman that lands like N-airplane from flight school.

 

[SGJet]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejv4MvI0HSE Just in case someone didn't have the chance to see this pristine Shulk play. Ally's shulkin' it up in Grand Finals.

 

[Fernosaur]

If you find his defense to be not stellar then we really do have a problem. Not saying that you suck or anything. It's just that I'm not sure how I can answer this tbh even though I fully disagree

I'm not saying I'm having particular trouble with him. I'm just analyzing his moveset in general. You don't have to tell me about patience :'D, as I said before, I was a Zelda main in Brawl, and believe me that was the ultimate patience test against like 90% of the cast. But coming from that same place, it's also good to analyse all the flaws and the faults in a character in order to turn them around and capitalize on them. Complaining and pointing things out are very different things.

Also, Shulk's defense isn't stellar, but that's not to say it's bad. In that vein I think U-tilt is the greater move because literally no one can get around it with any attack. But F and D-tilt cover a relatively specific point of space so they're not amazing defense options save for the long range in front.

The thing is that comparatively a good chunk of his moveset isn't something you can capitalize on save for very specific scenarios, which reduces the usefulness of his moves in general, looking at the moveset as a whole.

 

[NairWizard]

Am I the only one to begin thinking Shulk's moveset is pretty mediocre? I mean yeah he's got incredible range and the Monado Arts are pretty cool assets, but the moveset design in general leaves a lot to be desired in terms of hitbox placement and specially speed.

Anyone else?

Has Zelda forever tainted me into only seeing the flaws of the characters I like? :'D

Edit: I think that's the main reason the higher tiers are probably gonna be a pain in the *** for Shulk. He might outrange them, but he'll never be fast enough to keep his space for long and not get hit by, say, Diddy's aerials. Also, our current metagame revolves around like basically four moves with variations coming from MArts. Nair, Fair, Ftilt and Dtilt. Throw Utilt in there sometimes. Smashes are slow, they're incredibly punishable, and even though Fsmash has the longest range in the game, in pro play it's gonna be rare to actually see it land, specially on characters with little ending lag on their attacks.

Not to say he's not viable, though. I was just thinking about all the disadvantages he has.

Shulk has two major disadvantages:
- he doesn't have a fast aerial to avoid juggles from below
- his recovery is awful

So he's pretty bad in disadvantage.

It's been said before that he's also not that good in neutral--he's not bad, either, though. N-air has a ton of range and you can mix up jab1 and n-air to be pretty safe (and pivot options depending on Monado of choice). He has so much disjoint that projectiles really won't be that bad for him since most vanish on hit now (like Diddy's bananas, which are no longer transcendent).

In advantage, Shulk is terrifying. Avoiding up-tilt, f-air, and b-air? Good luck. If you try to just hit him, he can Counter you, too, and that's not a pretty sight (Power Vision in particular can mean your death, worse than getting hit by his f-air or b-air).

Bad in disadvantage, average in neutral, great in advantage--this would yield a decent character by itself, until you add in the unique advantages of Monado Arts.

Think about it. What characters with range and disjoint have you seen in the past two smash games who are also mobile, like Speed Monado Shulk? Marth's walk speed is pretty good, but he's not a fast character by any metric, and Shulk has even more range than Marth ever had. Other sword characters like Ike, Link, and Robin are all painfully slow. Not Shulk. Put on a Speed Monado and Shulk is suddenly fast with tons of range and disjoint, a pretty broken combination that is only made balanced by the fact that Shulk's aerials do pitiful damage. Look at it from this perspective: if Speed Shulk didn't have the disadvantages that he does (bad damage and shield safety), he'd be ridiculously unfair.

Go through the other Monado Arts and you'll see similar trends:

What characters are as good at edgeguarding as Jump Shulk? Even characters with enough recovery to get back to the stage after edgeguarding from deep like Pikachu don't have the range and power to flat out end stocks as quickly as Shulk does.
What characters in the game are as safe on shield as Buster Shulk while doing as much damage?
What characters can have their tilts and throws become kill moves at their % of choice like Smash Shulk?
Shield Monado is kinda mediocre, probably the weakest of the bunch, but even it has uses: what other characters can invalidate Ness' ability to kill you with a grab on command?

Shulk is a pretty good character. My belief is top 20, probably top 15. With customs he gets a lot better, because of Power Vision, Back Slash and Air Slash options for different matchups, and Hyper and Decisive Monado Arts (again for different matchups; in some MUs you want to be in Speed all day long, and in some MUs Hyper really helps you seal the deal quickly, since Hyper Smash is absurd, especially with Power Vision). I'd say top 5 in the customs environment.

Also, you can't boil his metagame down to four moves. N-air, f-air, f-tilt, and d-tilt are all good, but up-tilt is just as good if not better (go to Battlefield or Town and City, or Smashville, don't go to a flat stage, this thing is insane for platform pressure), Air Slash out of shield is really good, Counter mixups are really good, jab is amazing even though some characters can fall out (well, to be honest I think it's only Jigglypuff and Greninja), b-air is great in conjunction with his other aerials for a followup (someone can air dodge your f-air, but then what he is going to do when you land with b-air? if he goes behind you he gets hit, and b-air has a hitbox in front too if he just lands in place) and KO move, pivot options are really good especially in Speed mode, up-air is actually really good even though the hitbox is narrow, and his smashes are kinda mediocre overall, yes. But he has more than enough of a kit to work with. Different moves change in viability according to Monado state (pivot options get better in Speed, tilts get better in Buster, f-air gets better in Jump, etc.).

 

[TheHopefulHero]

Shulk has two major disadvantages:
- he doesn't have a fast aerial to avoid juggles from below
- his recovery is awful

So he's pretty bad in disadvantage.

It's been said before that he's also not that good in neutral--he's not bad, either, though. N-air has a ton of range and you can mix up jab1 and n-air to be pretty safe (and pivot options depending on Monado of choice). He has so much disjoint that projectiles really won't be that bad for him since most vanish on hit now (like Diddy's bananas, which are no longer transcendent).

In advantage, Shulk is terrifying. Avoiding up-tilt, f-air, and b-air? Good luck. If you try to just hit him, he can Counter you, too, and that's not a pretty sight (Power Vision in particular can mean your death, worse than getting hit by his f-air or b-air).

Bad in disadvantage, average in neutral, great in advantage--this would yield a decent character by itself, until you add in the unique advantages of Monado Arts.

Think about it. What characters with range and disjoint have you seen in the past two smash games who are also mobile, like Speed Monado Shulk? Marth's walk speed is pretty good, but he's not a fast character by any metric, and Shulk has even more range than Marth ever had. Other sword characters like Ike, Link, and Robin are all painfully slow. Not Shulk. Put on a Speed Monado and Shulk is suddenly fast with tons of range and disjoint, a pretty broken combination that is only made balanced by the fact that Shulk's aerials do pitiful damage. Look at it from this perspective: if Speed Shulk didn't have the disadvantages that he does (bad damage and shield safety), he'd be ridiculously unfair.

Go through the other Monado Arts and you'll see similar trends:

What characters are as good at edgeguarding as Jump Shulk? Even characters with enough recovery to get back to the stage after edgeguarding from deep like Pikachu don't have the range and power to flat out end stocks as quickly as Shulk does.
What characters in the game are as safe on shield as Buster Shulk while doing as much damage?
What characters can have their tilts and throws become kill moves at their % of choice like Smash Shulk?
Shield Monado is kinda mediocre, probably the weakest of the bunch, but even it has uses: what other characters can invalidate Ness' ability to kill you with a grab on command?

Shulk is a pretty good character. My belief is top 20, probably top 15. With customs he gets a lot better, because of Power Vision, Back Slash and Air Slash options for different matchups, and Hyper and Decisive Monado Arts (again for different matchups; in some MUs you want to be in Speed all day long, and in some MUs Hyper really helps you seal the deal quickly, since Hyper Smash is absurd, especially with Power Vision). I'd say top 5 in the customs environment.

Also, you can't boil his metagame down to four moves. N-air, f-air, f-tilt, and d-tilt are all good, but up-tilt is just as good if not better (go to Battlefield or Town and City, or Smashville, don't go to a flat stage, this thing is insane for platform pressure), Air Slash out of shield is really good, Counter mixups are really good, jab is amazing even though some characters can fall out (well, to be honest I think it's only Jigglypuff and Greninja), b-air is great in conjunction with his other aerials for a followup (someone can air dodge your f-air, but then what he is going to do when you land with b-air? if he goes behind you he gets hit, and b-air has a hitbox in front too if he just lands in place) and KO move, pivot options are really good especially in Speed mode, up-air is actually really good even though the hitbox is narrow, and his smashes are kinda mediocre overall, yes. But he has more than enough of a kit to work with. Different moves change in viability according to Monado state (pivot options get better in Speed, tilts get better in Buster, f-air gets better in Jump, etc.).

So if I'm understanding your post correctly, you're saying we should keep mixing our moves and approaches all while taking the advantage of the Monado Arts? That's something to work on. I really need other options besides Shulk's fastest-attacks. Time to return to the lab.

 

[NairWizard]

So if I'm understanding your post correctly, you're saying we should keep mixing our moves and approaches all while taking the advantage of the Monado Arts? That's something to work on. I really need other options besides Shulk's fastest-attacks. Time to return to the lab.

Mix up most of your moveset while keeping in mind that a strategy which is optimal while you are in one art will NOT be optimal while you are in another art.

 

[TheHopefulHero]

Got it. Thanks for the tip. (And I've realized that when F-Airing in Jump is a whole lot better than F-Airing in Speed.)

 

[meleebrawler]

You dont need to land a second one because they are dead.

Power vision alone will probably be a strong case for three
stocks being the norm. The less stocks in a game, the more obvious
a choice power vision becomes.

Just know that you likely won't get another chance to use
it, at least in the current stock, whether you hit or miss (does vision refresh
on a new stock?).

Also, G&W's Oil Panic KOs at 0 with any remotely
decent energy projectile and no one bats an eye.

 

[Berserker.]

Vision refreshes on a new stock. Same goes for dash and power vision

 

[Eternal Abyss]

I decided to become a member, after lurking for a month or so, since I think I finally have something useful to contribute. I found two methods that seem to work well for getting back on the stage when you are hanging from the ledge. (Sorry if they have been discussed. I couldn't find them by searching.)

- First one I had another Shulk use on me in For Glory. If you drop and then Up-B it serves as a good way to hit them away from the ledge for a safe recovery.

- The second one I discovered (and later saw on Jerms Shulk guide). If you use jump recovery you can then counter mid jump. I found out that that If you time it right you will even do it on the platform instead of the air. This is really useful with the forward input version as it allows you to hit them off the stage. One word of warning: Sometimes instead of landing on the stage you will start the counter off the stage. This prevents snapping back on the ledge which can kill you if you failed to get hit. This can be avoided if you jump right after the counter animation is finished and then use Up-B.

Obviously you shouldn't spam these options as they can be punished if not careful, but I figure you guys might want to know they are possible options.

I would love to hear any other unique options for recovery in this scenario if you have them.

 

[AlvisCPU]

I don't venture around Smashboards much, but this seems like the place to ask where I'm trying to better my Shulk.

- Do Vision activations *only* refresh on new stocks? For some reason I had the impression it regenerated over time, but I never really knew if it was true.
- How dramatically does the activation window on the Visions drop on each counter? (And does it decrease if the Vision isn't activated?) Reading some of the above comments it sounds like I can only get one or two uses out of Power Vision before it's too hard to time correctly.
- I keep hearing that there's a sweet- and sour-spot on some/most of Shulk's hits. Where do they lie? I know that with the fsmash and usmash there's two hits, but I think that's a separate deal. I get the impression that other attacks have better areas to hit with than others.
- How should I be playing under Smash arts? I know when and when not to use it, of course, but I'm having a realisation that when I try to get a decent hit in, I end up getting hit or punished, and I spend most of the activation time recoiling through the air because of the increased knockback.
- I thought I understood this well enough but maybe not - how should I play under Buster? I thought I had a good grasp on it, but I'm finding it's 50/50 to whether or not I come out of Buster better than when I started. I'm not sure what it is, but I'm finding that when I try to go all hyper-offensive with non-Speed arts, it doesn't go well. Maybe I'm predictable.
- Is Jump a viable offensive art (outside of edgeguarding)? I only ever use it for recovery and some pitiful edgeguard attempts (that's just practise though), wondering if I'm missing out on some fighting benefits due to the increased vertical agility has. I fear the increased damage.

 

[Berserker.]

@ Eternal Abyss

Thread OP moved to Meta game thread

Welcome to Smashboards by the way

 

[Eternal Abyss]

@ Eternal Abyss

Thread OP moved to Meta game thread

Welcome to Smashboards by the way

That works. Wasn't sure if it should have been posted here because of the subtitle emphasis on Monado Arts and thanks.

 

[Berserker.]

I don't venture around Smashboards much, but this seems like the place to ask where I'm trying to better my Shulk.

- Do Vision activations *only* refresh on new stocks? For some reason I had the impression it regenerated over time, but I never really knew if it was true.
- How dramatically does the activation window on the Visions drop on each counter? (And does it decrease if the Vision isn't activated?) Reading some of the above comments it sounds like I can only get one or two uses out of Power Vision before it's too hard to time correctly.
- I keep hearing that there's a sweet- and sour-spot on some/most of Shulk's hits. Where do they lie? I know that with the fsmash and usmash there's two hits, but I think that's a separate deal. I get the impression that other attacks have better areas to hit with than others.
- How should I be playing under Smash arts? I know when and when not to use it, of course, but I'm having a realisation that when I try to get a decent hit in, I end up getting hit or punished, and I spend most of the activation time recoiling through the air because of the increased knockback
- I thought I understood this well enough but maybe not - how should I play under Buster? I thought I had a good grasp on it, but I'm finding it's 50/50 to whether or not I come out of Buster better than when I started. I'm not sure what it is, but I'm finding that when I try to go all hyper-offensive with non-Speed arts, it doesn't go well. Maybe I'm predictable.
- Is Jump a viable offensive art (outside of edgeguarding)? I only ever use it for recovery and some pitiful edgeguard attempts (that's just practise though), wondering if I'm missing out on some fighting benefits due to the increased vertical agility has. I fear the increased damage.

- It refreshes over time even on a current stock. No one figured out the duration of the refresh time though
- Not really sure here. Also needs to be experimented with
- Base is the sweetspot. Tip is the sourspot. For n-air, tip is the sweetspot. Base is the sourspot
- Smash art is insanely unsafe on shield. Use Smash art purely for PUNISHING if you're trying to land a hit. That or you can go for a grab KO with Smash art. B-throw and D-throw are your KO throws in Smash. Also, use OoS air slash or OoS u-smash
- Buster is best used at mid %'s OR if you're confident that you're going to outplay your opponent. Grounded buster is safe in general. Aerial buster at 0% or low %'s in general is unsafe IF you connect the hit due to the additional landing lag and the fact that the hitsun is really low
- Jump is versatile. It can be used offensively and defensively but imo, it's best to be elusive with it if you want to use it for on-stage tactics. The lower defense really hurts so take advantage of the mobility and jump height to avoid getting hit. Also, learn how to perform and use empty hops. Bait them into doing something then go in with n-air



Edit: If you space it well enough, buster aerials probably won't get punished most of the time

 

[AlvisCPU]

- It refreshes over time even on a current stock. No one figured out the duration of the refresh time though
- Not really sure here. Also needs to be experimented with
- Base is the sweetspot. Tip is the sourspot. For n-air, tip is the sweetspot. Base is the sourspot
- Smash art is insanely unsafe on shield. Use Smash art purely for PUNISHING if you're trying to land a hit. That or you can go for a grab KO with Smash art. B-throw and D-throw are your KO throws in Smash. Also, use OoS air slash or OoS u-smash
- Buster is best used at mid %'s OR if you're confident that you're going to outplay your opponent. Grounded buster is safe in general. Aerial buster at 0% or low %'s in general is unsafe IF you connect the hit due to the additional landing lag and the fact that the hitsun is really low
- Jump is versatile. It can be used offensively and defensively but imo, it's best to be elusive with it if you want to use it for on-stage tactics. The lower defense really hurts so take advantage of the mobility and jump height to avoid getting hit. Also, learn how to perform and use empty hops. Bait them into doing something then go in with n-air

Much appreciated
I generally use Buster under those conditions. I think I just need to be less reckless with it. And am I reading that correctly? Do you have more landing lag under Buster, or are you saying that on top of the decreased knockback, the lag becomes more dangerous?
I think empty hopping is something I need to learn to do. I think any good player, after playing me for 40sec, wouldn't need Visions to foresee that I nair into nearly everything. Somewhat difficult to practise when I can't get online often and you can't play mindgames in that way with the AI.

 

[Berserker.]

Space with buster then your good at the start but honestly, racking up damage with speed first is safer. You don't have to worry about being punished on hit as long as you racked up maybe around ~50% damage

Also, mid-range playstyle is what fits with buster art. Note that being too reckless might get you damaged while being too defensive won't let you rack up that much damage

 

[MarioFireRed]

Space with buster then your good at the start but honestly, racking up damage with speed first is safer. You don't have to worry about being punished on hit as long as you racked up maybe around ~50% damage

Also, mid-range playstyle is what fits with buster art. Note that being too reckless might get you damaged while being too defensive won't let you rack up that much damage

This pretty much. Shulk is best played patiently while baiting aerials to strike. He's got all the options in the world thanks to his arts (Rushdown? Tank? Gimp? You got it.), however you also have to act fast and get accustomed to virtually six different playstyles to succeed with this character.

Or be like me and become a little too depending on a certain art (darn you Speed).

 

[erico9001]

I don't venture around Smashboards much, but this seems like the place to ask where I'm trying to better my Shulk.

- Do Vision activations *only* refresh on new stocks? For some reason I had the impression it regenerated over time, but I never really knew if it was true.
- How dramatically does the activation window on the Visions drop on each counter? (And does it decrease if the Vision isn't activated?) Reading some of the above comments it sounds like I can only get one or two uses out of Power Vision before it's too hard to time correctly.
- I keep hearing that there's a sweet- and sour-spot on some/most of Shulk's hits. Where do they lie? I know that with the fsmash and usmash there's two hits, but I think that's a separate deal. I get the impression that other attacks have better areas to hit with than others.
- How should I be playing under Smash arts? I know when and when not to use it, of course, but I'm having a realisation that when I try to get a decent hit in, I end up getting hit or punished, and I spend most of the activation time recoiling through the air because of the increased knockback.
- I thought I understood this well enough but maybe not - how should I play under Buster? I thought I had a good grasp on it, but I'm finding it's 50/50 to whether or not I come out of Buster better than when I started. I'm not sure what it is, but I'm finding that when I try to go all hyper-offensive with non-Speed arts, it doesn't go well. Maybe I'm predictable.
- Is Jump a viable offensive art (outside of edgeguarding)? I only ever use it for recovery and some pitiful edgeguard attempts (that's just practise though), wondering if I'm missing out on some fighting benefits due to the increased vertical agility has. I fear the increased damage.

-it does regenerate over time (I can't think of a specific example, but I'm just certain of it).
-I'm not sure, but I usually think of it as a drop of 1/4 each time it is used. It still decreases when nobody hits it.
-For sweetspots and stuff:

2. Monado Sword
The Monado is Shulk's primary weapon which is an energy blade that grants foresight to Shulk. Besides the ability to cycle activate & switch between Arts in mid-battle, Monado's greatest advantage it has is the long & wide range, further beyond that of any sworddsman in Smash 4. Though it is neither the fastest nor the strongest. Despite that, Shulk's Monado has sweetspots & sourspots within most of his moves, along with a couple more of hit-boxes in other moves too. The Blade aka the sweetspot area, mostly deals stronger damage & knockback whereas the Beam aka the sourspot area, mostly deals weaker damage & knockback. Some of Shulk's attacks grounded or airborne possess a Tipper within the Beam, & the Base / Hilt within the Blade.

Moves with sweet & sourspots:
Jab-3
F-tilt, U-tilt, & D-tilt
F-smash & D-smash
N-air, F-air, B-air, U-air, & D-air
Side-B, including Customs #1 & #2
Up-B, including Customs #1 & #2
Down-B, including Customs #1 & #2

Moves without sweet & sourspots:
Jab-1 & Jab-2
Dash Attack
U-smash
Grab, Pummel, & all 4 throws
Front & Back Floor Attack
Front & Back Trip Attack
Ledge attack
Neutral-B including Customs #1 & #2
All 3 taunts
════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════

Some poor-man's hit-box diagrams I made (they're not exact)​

Probably easier to read if you follow the link for the quote.
-Under Monado Smash you don't want to become too predictable. Smash Attacks are still as unsafe as always- possibly more unsafe since Monado Smash does not send people who are shielded as far away. Personally, I avoid Smash attacks while in Monado Smash and aim more for side tilts and BAirs. It's also a mode I will go to for trying to get people with FAirs offstage. However, I don't think Monado Smash is as good as I used to see it.
-Most people here would recommend using Buster defensively, but I'm not exactly sure why. It's preference I guess. Maybe you should try it defensively then.
-Jump is viable offensively. Go high, dive low while attacking. You can mix it up every once in a while and land without an aerial and do a grab since they are shielding- expecting an aerial. The art helps with follow ups like Dtilt -> Fair at higher percents. Offstage attacks take practice to get used to. You should sometimes go for people recovering low by running off the stage though- maybe you're not doing this?

 

[Berserker.]

-Most people here would recommend using Buster defensively, but I'm not exactly sure why. It's preference I guess. Maybe you should try it defensively then.

Defensive buster is the safest way to go with the art but you don't get that much damage out of it which pretty much negates the purpose of the art

 

[erico9001]

Defensive buster is the safest way to go with the art but you don't get that much damage out of it which pretty much negates the purpose of the art

I usually use it offensively myself, but just due to the impatience I have with people in For Glory.
Edit: Screw that post. I've got something new. So...

You're not talking about pressing special three times to cancel your current art in order to either stay vanilla or swift to a different one if you're grabbed and thrown for an aerial string juggle in Shield mode right? I wasn't aware a basic function of his neutral special was meant to be some special tactic. If your current art isn't working out, you can switch! You don't say?!

He actually mentions it (canceling your current art) multiple times in his video guide. He even brings it up during his section on this very mode in regards to being grabbed and tossed off the stage in which he advises the viewer to cancel shield in midair in order to switch to jump to make it back onstage. I must be missing something here.

Mace. That's basically cancelling the art

Xeiros, try not to be sarcastic :|

No actually you're not getting what he means. You can input for the Monado Art to be cancelled while doing something that prevents anything from happening - for instance, while doing your taunt. You don't need to be in a state where you have control. If you press B 3 times soon enough before you gain control of your character again, the Monado Art will deactivate right away once you do gain control. It's easiest if you just spam the B button though. Understanding this, you can cancel the art even while shielded or dodging.

Here's a situation. You're trying Shield out against Mario and he grabs you. Oh crap, here comes the Dthrow into repeated U-tilts? No! Rapidly press B while he's got you, or even when he's comboing you. While the deactivation won't save you from the grab's knockback, it will save you from the next hit. Another situation is you're in Smash mode and are anticipating a death. No matter what you're doing, you can spam B and get out of Smash.

My own side note: You can also change Monado Arts right away during landing lag with no waiting, which I find interesting. You can also start the activation too during landing lag. But with what Masonomace said, why not start deactivating the art when you're doing the attack that will cause the landing lag?
------------------------
Okay so why did I bring this from the video thread to here? Well.. I made another discovery. This may be new tech.

Going off what I was saying above, you can hit the B button 3 times while in the shield and then unshield, and then the Monado Art will cancel. Well here's the thing... there's a small delay. Significance? Decent enough for usefulness. Remember this post from above?

Yeah, in 1/4x speed they seem to go nearly exactly the same distance if I use from the middle of FD.

Oo!! I just found something!

Shulk has huge grab range if in MSpeed and WALKING. He continues to slide as the grab starts out. This is great considering Shulk's walk speed in MSpeed seems to be a little faster than his run speed in Vanilla.

This is, of course, similar to how Shulk continues to slide with his Smash attacks used from this walking mode.

-

This has lead me to another discovery!

If your Monado Art cancels while you are walking, you will walk the same speed you were in the last Monado Art. So you can walk at MSpeed speed while Vanilla. Additionally, you do not need to be going full speed for it to work. You can be walking really slow with MSpeed, have it cancel, then put the walk at full speed and you will be at the full speed for MSpeed.

This is the same for running, but you have less control over your speed while running (but if you had great timing skills, still could mean something).

The main issue with it is you have to be walking or running when the art deactivates. But thanks to this small delay, you can start walking or running before it deactivates. Similarly, you can deactive directly after you jump out of your shield, and you retain the height and air speed (air speed lasts until you do another action like air dodging or double jumping). Furthermore, you can cancel it on anything. You can even cancel it on the animation that plays when you activate the art! In fact, doing this is very reliable, because you cannot deactivate arts when in this animation, but you can walk out of it or jump out of it. So a very easy way to do it is activate a Monado art, while in the animation for it press B 3 times to deactive, and then immediately run, walk, or jump out of the animation.

Although, thanks to this I was able to figure out I was wrong when I said above that you continue to run at the same speed when your art deactivates. It actually just takes some time for you to slow down or speed up. So what you'll be seeing here with what I have found today is with Monado Speed you will start off with a really quick dash but then slow down as you continue. Walking is still the same as I said it was though. @ Masonomace I wonder if air speed is like running or walking in this regard - stay the same speed or just slowly decrease?

Right, so that's all I have to say about that. I'm going to bed now.

 

[Berserker.]

I had an interesting idea which I can't do at the moment. What if you started out a match with Smash Shulk against Rosaluma? You can try to knock luma off-stage with Smash's increased knockback then after successfully doing that, switch back to speed or jump. Thoughts on this?

Not saying that this is going to work. I just want some opinions and thoughts, spark some discussion

 

[Masonomace]

I had an interesting idea which I can't do at the moment. What if you started out a match with Smash Shulk against Rosaluma? You can try to knock luma off-stage with Smash's increased knockback then after successfully doing that, switch back to speed or jump. Thoughts on this?

Not saying that this is going to work. I just want some opinions and thoughts, spark some discussion

My thoughts (IDK much about the Rosalina MU so correct me anywhere I'm wrong) :
I dig it. The Luma has 50 HP(?) & having to deal 50% just to remove it from play for 13 seconds would be time-consuming, but using Smash in this kind of way would give a nice window of opportunity to switch to Jump or Speed since Luma's knocked out off-stage is how they mostly die. As long as we keep Rosalina away from Luma while securing the Luma KO to prevent summoning him back. The moment Luma's launched by Smash, de-activate it asap for Jump or Speed to keep her away?

 

[Berserker.]

The moment Luma's launched by Smash, de-activate it asap for Jump or Speed to keep her away?

Keep her away from what when the Luma's launched? You're talking about if the luma wasn't launched far enough for it to be off stage even after using a smash art attack or when it's launched off-stage?

The luma's as good as dead once it's hit off-stage. They can't act out of hitsun until they land on some surface

 

[ArchmageMC]

I dunno if Smash is enough to knock a luma off stage with an aerial or a smash unelsss its near the edge. I'd personally use Buster and just kill the thing since it only has 50 stamina, and unlike rosalina it can't shield or dodge making hitting it a breeze. And you can use the luma to extend your smash hitboxes if rosalina is rolling or sidestepping to possibly get a hit. And of course if she shields a buster smash or tilt, that shield will get wrecked.

Smash might work, but Buster just sounds safer imo.

 

[Berserker.]

I dunno if Smash is enough to knock a luma off stage with an aerial or a smash unelsss its near the edge. I'd personally use Buster and just kill the thing since it only has 50 stamina, and unlike rosalina it can't shield or dodge making hitting it a breeze. And you can use the luma to extend your smash hitboxes if rosalina is rolling or sidestepping to possibly get a hit. And of course if she shields a buster smash or tilt, that shield will get wrecked.

Smash might work, but Buster just sounds safer imo.

You don't have to be that near the edge to successfully knock the luma away. Also, f-tilt in smash has a lot of knockback so spacing that against Luma will work well

Using buster for luma is a viable tactic but it's time consuming and you're simultaneously risking your damage percentage since you take more damage in buster (+13% more damage) unlike in Smash wherein your weight is only lessened (This weakness is not really much to worry about at lower percentages)