Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[Opana]

Honestly, the only art I don't usually edge guard with is Buster due to the knockback reduction. With shield, it's possible to shff a fair and still recover, so I like to use that to catch people off guard.

I use speed the most all the time tbh, I find the gimp potential to be better than busters huge damage.

 

[Berserker.]

Dash attack pivots is when you're dashing / running & put analog stick to neutral & input A or C-stick down to do a late Dash Attack, right. . .?

My bad. I edited my post again. Corrected pivoting to dash dancing. Dash attack has great range, damage and knockback. It's usually forgotten since the start up is pretty slow but it's usable at a scenario wherein you feel that your grab won't reach. I still don't throw it out a lot but it's something good to know.

 

[Masonomace]

Ah yes Speed's Dash Dance in conjunction with Dash Attack is neat. the distance carried forward OoS helps punish characters easier, but with enough opportune frames we could dash grab instead. I think it depends on how far we're pushed back when shielding hits, per-say if the shield-stun put on our bubble shield is too much then Dash Attack can't go wrong. Though again, it depends on the character & it's attack move that opts me to either dash grab, or mix it up & pivot grab whether they're near either side by the ledge.

The funny thing with Buster edge-guarding is the knockback matters less when their health reaches the +70% range using smashes. I've used Buster to augment my edge-guarding & KO'd light-weight characters with a half charged upward angled F-smash, but their % was from 90% to 110%. But as I've come to notice smash attacks are the only moves you can get away with Buster's knockback issue because you're obviously charging up the smashes to deal tons more damage & more knockback.

Btw guys apparently Jump mode has the best horizontal air speed, while Speed is 2nd place. =]

 

[TheHopefulHero]

Not sure if this means anything, but Monado Arts can cancel out the landing lag from an air dodge when it activates.

 

[SGJet]

I was actually putting some use into a interesting concept we discussed shortly about, involving our floor options with Buster on. When the opponent rushed to my floor landing & shielded, I was able to break their shield with both hits of Shulk's Front Floor Attack in mid-match & got a sweet punish with Buster F-smash Fullcharged, dealing 36% in total.

So after that I went into training mode to lab this up, & learned that:

• Buster Shulk's Ledge Attack barely deals more shield damage aka not worth the effort. Can still be punished
• Buster Shulk's Front Floor Attack indeed breaks shield when both hits connect on-block. The back hit seems to decide it all
• Buster Shulk's Front Trip Attack at relatively close range did slightly increase shield damage, but not enough to make it viable. Can still be punished

I did not attempt only hitting with the back-hitting slash from Back Floor Attack or Back Trip Attack, because sleep. I also didn't mess with DBuster or HBuster, but if I had to guess, HBuster Shulk's Front or Back Floor Attack probably destroys an entire shield with just one hit.

What is Shulk's Floor Front Attack?

I need to get back to studying for my 2 exams tomorrow, so not testing anything. Just an idea. What about reversed air slash for ledge trumps?

Not sure yet, but I can confirm that U-air, D-air, and Air Slash all work after ledge trumps. After they jump to get back to the stage, they're all yours. Still testing reverse air slash.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

^Floor attacks, like when you're getting up from being knocked on your back and you press an attack

How would you even go about doing a reverse Air Slash after a trump?

 

[Berserker.]

Alright. I want you guys to try this out because I don't have the tools or method to do this. Can anyone test vision's counter window? How much it decreases per usage and the minimum number of frames for the counter window. Also, try checking if the counter window regenerates overtime or it just refreshes after a certain duration. Thanks.

I'll just explain my pov regarding when to use either f-air or n-air. F-air is used for more purposes than n-air. You use it to wall out opponents. It also is more used than n-air for neutralizing projectiles because unlike n-air whose animation lasts until you land on a surface, you can use f-air more than once. Maybe if you're trying to close in quickly, n-air would be used but you might get punished even if the landing is only 12 frames. I'd use f-air for poking a lot more than n-air simply because f-air has longer range than n-air. N-air covers more "area" than f-air but I'm only talking about how far the hitbox reaches. For edgeguarding, f-air is used more for obvious reasons. It 's dangerous to use n-air off stage because of how long the animation lasts. You'll get yourself killed if you use this off stage. That's not to say that you absolutely can't use it off stage. It's just more favorable and helpful to use f-air. Rising n-air won't get you killed unless you FF (Why would you do that?)... Anyway, n-air is used for closing in because you can do so much off of a hit from n-air (Grab or jab combo or d-tilt) and the landing lag is obviously less than f-air's. Although f-air can be used to cover space, n-air does a better job at doing that since the monado goes around Shulk. Yeah, that's all I'll say for now. Feel free to disagree.

 

[TheHopefulHero]

Not sure if this means anything, but Monado Arts can cancel out the landing lag from an air dodge when it activates.

Here's a short video describing what I just said. Meant to upload it earlier, but I forgot until now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkyirLuV5wA

 

[erico9001]

^Floor attacks, like when you're getting up from being knocked on your back and you press an attack

How would you even go about doing a reverse Air Slash after a trump?

You would need to be used to doing reversed air slashes. I do them all the time (or do I do B-reversed air slashes?) so it's no problem for me. My method is to input the air slash and immediatley afterwards have my joystick to the side I want to face. I usually do this anyways, even if not reversing, so I can get horizontal movement between the two strikes of Air Slash. Anyways, to do it after a ledge trump either press down or away from the ledge and do the reversed air slash. You need to be quick and make sure to get off the ledge as soon as possible. Following the move, drift back to the ledge.

Note: Pressing down and going low may be better because it will give opponents less height if they do not hit the blastbox. This would also compensate for people who do not jump after the ledge trump but instead try to recover low with an Up-B.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Alright. I want you guys to try this out because I don't have the tools or method to do this. Can anyone test vision's counter window? How much it decreases per usage and the minimum number of frames for the counter window. Also, try checking if the counter window regenerates overtime or it just refreshes after a certain duration. Thanks.

-The counter window decreases with each usage, not with each successful hit.
-Vision's blinking animation does not change regardless of the actual window, meaning that it can be deceptive.
-The window regenerates when not in use; seems to be fully restored in 20 seconds if drained to the bare minimum.
-The window seems to decrease 50% every time it's used and continues to do so until it's only active on the first frame; more experimenting needed.

 

[SGJet]

Hey guys, I think we need to start thinking about falling U-air as an offensive option. Vanilla Shulk can fall on the enemy, get the first hit of U-air and go for either a U-Smash or pivot grab.

Also, let's start thinking about the application of perfect pivots with Shulk. Check out this guide on perfect pivoting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vaR4RM-qr0 The potential with Shulk is really good since he has a really nice perfect pivot.

 

[Opana]

0 to death Shulk string vs bad recoverys

Ledge drop Back Slash

Shulk pivot grab spike on Little Mac!

All with the help of my brother, messhia_light on Gamefaqs. These are my first videos off the U version demonstrating something, andf it was much easier with him than a XPU.

Also, about uair, I use it with speed shulk as if timed right as you sh the beam pops out right as you land, at the vvery least stringing to utilt.

The pivot spike needs more testing, I only tested a handful of characters it didnt work on, and a handful of stages and so far it only works on omega BF and Piotwings.

 

[M-Z]

@ SGJet awesome video, pivots work great with shulk

 

[Nammy12]

Alright. I want you guys to try this out because I don't have the tools or method to do this. Can anyone test vision's counter window? How much it decreases per usage and the minimum number of frames for the counter window. Also, try checking if the counter window regenerates overtime or it just refreshes after a certain duration. Thanks.

Not exactly sure about the duration but I figured I might as well test the frame data.
I may be off a bit.

Startup: Frames 1-6 (vulnerable during this time)

Counter activation window: Frames 7-30 (when a fresh counter can be triggered)

Invincibility: Regular counter: Frames 7-52 (after hitting)
Forward Counter: Frames 7-48 (after hitting)

Cooldown if not activated: About 30 frames.

 

[Masonomace]

What is Shulk's Floor Front Attack?

Shulk's Front Floor Attack is when Shulk tumbles hitting the ground, & pressing A or B while Shulk is laying on his back will make him get up & slash in front of him, & then behind him. The Back Floor Attack is opposite directions, Shulk laying on his stomach & slashing behind him first, then in front of him.

Here's a short video describing what I just said. Meant to upload it earlier, but I forgot until now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkyirLuV5wA

It's cool if I store that link to the Educational Shulk videos portion in the OP HHero?

You would need to be used to doing reversed air slashes. I do them all the time (or do I do B-reversed air slashes?) so it's no problem for me. My method is to input the air slash and immediatley afterwards have my joystick to the side I want to face. I usually do this anyways, even if not reversing, so I can get horizontal movement between the two strikes of Air Slash. Anyways, to do it after a ledge trump either press down or away from the ledge and do the reversed air slash. You need to be quick and make sure to get off the ledge as soon as possible. Following the move, drift back to the ledge.

Note: Pressing down and going low may be better because it will give opponents less height if they do not hit the blastbox. This would also compensate for people who do not jump after the ledge trump but instead try to recover low with an Up-B.

Good thing AAS would KO them before we SD, but MAS might not work with this (lack of range). With Customs out of the way, I haven't tried this with regular AS yet. I'll be so excited to implement this. I think we'd have more success B-Reversing AS for that extra horizontal movement rather than pivoting AS also.

Hey guys, I think we need to start thinking about falling U-air as an offensive option. Vanilla Shulk can fall on the enemy, get the first hit of U-air and go for either a U-Smash or pivot grab.

Also, let's start thinking about the application of perfect pivots with Shulk. Check out this guide on perfect pivoting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vaR4RM-qr0 The potential with Shulk is really good since he has a really nice perfect pivot.

The best offensive way I feel is Speed mode + SH > U-air with some drifting to aim for the opponent's landing, Aside from that I like doing falling U-air upon landing to get the first hit of U-air to pop them up, with whatever follow-up comes to mind after. Also In Speed mode you can SH > U-air & get both hits to come out right before landing, so there's that. Although ofc it's unsafe on shield even when augmented by Buster.

As for perfect pivoting with Shulk, it's pretty nice. A retreating perfect pivot > F-smash is really good spacing & is the next level of stutterstepping F-smash backwards. I'm going to start leveling up my mix-up game with some Pivot dashing > Boost grabbing too.

 

[Opana]

0 to death Shulk string vs bad recoverys

Ledge drop Back Slash

Shulk pivot grab spike on Little Mac!

All with the help of my brother, messhia_light on Gamefaqs. These are my first videos off the U version demonstrating something, andf it was much easier with him than a XPU.

Also, about uair, I use it with speed shulk as if timed right as you sh the beam pops out right as you land, at the vvery least stringing to utilt.

The pivot spike needs more testing, I only tested a handful of characters it didnt work on, and a handful of stages and so far it only works on omega BF and Piotwings.

Was gonna run some testing on the 3DS regarding the Mac spike, but apparently it only works on the U which is odd. Went to Omega bf and pivot grabbed Mac but it acted like a normal dthrow, so I'm assuming it only works on the U for some reason.

EDIT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyTIq4Ul-yw
Buffered Perfect Pivot with Shulk

I love doing this with speed. I am curious if buffering a PP after a throw will follow up to anything.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Zelda could do the same thing in Brawl (idk about Wii U, I'll have to test it) on some characters on BF/Spear Pillar and a few other stages, but it only worked at the verrrry edge of the stage and she was too slow to run and pivot grab. It looks like Shulk's dthrow spike might have some sucess though, since you can use a pivot grab AND Speed. Once he's at 25% or so, we might be saying bye to Little Mac

 

[Berserker.]

Based from the Perfect pivot video, Shulk's pp length (measured by windy hill blocks) is 4 at normal, 2 at shield and 7 at speed

 

[FlareHabanero]

Based from the Perfect pivot video, Shulk's pp length (measured by windy hill blocks) is 4 at normal, 2 at shield and 7 at speed

Fyi, this technically means Shulk has both the worst (tied with Jigglypuff) and best perfect pivot in the game.

 

[Berserker.]

@ Masonomace The OP (Not my OP) should be updated with these facts

1) Jump Shulk's air speed is at 1.1750 (Fastest in the game w/o customs on)
2) Speed Shulk's air speed is at 1.0375 (3rd fastest in the game w/o customs on)
3) Normal Shulk's air speed is at 0.8000 (As slow as Ike's and Pacman's air speed)
4) Shield Shulk's air speed is at 0.4875 (Slowest in the game w/o customs on tied with Dedede)
5) Shulk's Perfect Pivot length (measured by windy hill blocks) is 4 at normal/buster/jump/smash/buster, 2 at shield and 7 at speed

 

[erico9001]

I'm trying to figure out the change in knockback with Monado Buster/Monado Jump and what causes it.

Luigi Up B
Neutral Shulk - 69%
Jump - 68%
Buster - 65%
Shield - 114%
Smash - 58%
Mega Man - 72%
Captain Falcon - 72%
Lucario - 69%
Marth - 65%
Jigglypuff - 49%
King Dedede - 82%
Rosalina & Luma - 56%
Pikachu - 58%
Olimar - 58%
Duck Hunt - 67%

C. Falcon side B
Shulk - 122%
Jump - 128% - I tested this over and over... odd.
Buster - 121%
Duck Hunt - 124%
Yoshi - 118%
Mega Man - 130%
Lucario - 124%

Yoshi Up Smash
Shulk - 78%
Jump - 77%
Buster - 75%
Duck Hunt - 76%
Lucario - 78%
C.Falcon - 81%

^These results are more normal.

Meta Knight F-Smash, opponent all the way to edge, up close
Shulk - 41%
Jump Shulk - 36%
Buster - 38%

With the forward smash, it does 22% damage to neutral Shulk and 27% damage to Jump Shulk. I notice that the difference for kill % here is 5%. This may mean that the only reason Shulk has more knockback is because of the extra damage he takes (the damage after the hitbox hits is used in calculating knockback, not the damage before).

Meta Knight F-Smash going other way
79% - neutral
76% - Jump
76% - Buster

Here, you notice that Jump proportionally has more knockback than the others compared to the other one. This is probably because the large distance Shulk travels gives him a lot of time to be vectoring.

Okay, Bowser does 32% damage to Shulk with a fully charged F-Smash, 39% against jump. The difference is 7%, so whatever the kill percent for Neutral Shulk is for this F-Smash, Jump's kill percent should be 7% lower than that. The vectoring/air speed factor should be negligible because Shulk is not travelling far.

Shulk dies specifically at 22% in neutral. In Jump, he dies no sooner than 15%. That's a 7% difference! "This is a good result!" Since these percents are so low, I bet that Monado Smash won't even be killed. And... yep! Monado Smash survives until 16%.

Furthermore, Shulk takes 36% damage when in Buster, so the kill percent should be 18% if there's no weight change. Let's test that. Shulk's kill percent is 18%!

Right, so there's no weight change with the Jump and Buster Monado arts. Now that we know that, let's try to explain some of the previous results I had.

Luigi Up B:
Neutral Shulk - 69%; Jump - 68%; Buster - 65%
25.0% damage to Neutral, 30.5% damage to Jump (reads as 30), 28% damage to Buster (28.25). Theoretically, if there were no other factors, Shulk's kill percents should really be Vanilla: 69%, Jump: 63.5% (reads as 63%), Buster: 65.75 (reads as 65%).

In this case, Buster is actually about where it should be (I only know the recorded kill % to the significant figure of the whole number), but Jump is way off. This is usually the case. I had the opponent settings to control in training mode, so there's no way vectoring or DI made the difference. It's quite strange, especially with C. Falcon's side B. Maybe Shulk's horizontal air mobility being increased makes him go less vertically over time, changing the angle? Well... that doesn't explain why duck hunt is harder to kill higher than Yoshi with the up B, since Yoshi has both a higher weight and air mobility than duck hunt.

Well, at least we can conclude that being in Jump or Buster does not make you have very much more knockback than being in neutral. It's also good to know that they do not change your weight value and the extra knockback is due to the extra damage. This should have implications for how we treat the art in general.

edit: Now I've done some testing with that Little Mac stage spike that was found earlier. It only works on Battlefield/Big Battlefield and their Omegas and Wuhu Island Omega. It also works with G&W somewhat, but only on the omega of battlefield/big battlefield. I don't know if it works on any other character, but I tested any I thought it might.

 

[Jaxas]

Now I've done some testing with that Little Mac stage spike that was found earlier. It only works on Battlefield/Big Battlefield and their Omegas and Wuhu Island Omega. It also works with G&W somewhat, but only on the omega of battlefield/big battlefield. I don't know if it works on any other character, but I tested any I thought it might.

Lucario had a Bthrow stage spike like this on LM back in the 3DS version, if I remember correctly.

 

[TheHopefulHero]

It's cool if I store that link to the Educational Shulk videos portion in the OP HHero?.

By all means go ahead Masonomace! I'll try using the capture card to show some more stuff when ever possible.

 

[Masonomace]

I'm trying to figure out the change in knockback with Monado Buster/Monado Jump and what causes it.

Luigi Up B
Neutral Shulk - 69%
Jump - 68%
Buster - 65%
Shield - 114%
Smash - 58%
Mega Man - 72%
Captain Falcon - 72%
Lucario - 69%
Marth - 65%
Jigglypuff - 49%
King Dedede - 82%
Rosalina & Luma - 56%
Pikachu - 58%
Olimar - 58%
Duck Hunt - 67%

C. Falcon side B
Shulk - 122%
Jump - 128% - I tested this over and over... odd.
Buster - 121%
Duck Hunt - 124%
Yoshi - 118%
Mega Man - 130%
Lucario - 124%

Yoshi Up Smash
Shulk - 78%
Jump - 77%
Buster - 75%
Duck Hunt - 76%
Lucario - 78%
C.Falcon - 81%

^These results are more normal.

Meta Knight F-Smash, opponent all the way to edge, up close
Shulk - 41%
Jump Shulk - 36%
Buster - 38%

With the forward smash, it does 22% damage to neutral Shulk and 27% damage to Jump Shulk. I notice that the difference for kill % here is 5%. This may mean that the only reason Shulk has more knockback is because of the extra damage he takes (the damage after the hitbox hits is used in calculating knockback, not the damage before).

Meta Knight F-Smash going other way
79% - neutral
76% - Jump
76% - Buster

Here, you notice that Jump proportionally has more knockback than the others compared to the other one. This is probably because the large distance Shulk travels gives him a lot of time to be vectoring.

Okay, Bowser does 32% damage to Shulk with a fully charged F-Smash, 39% against jump. The difference is 7%, so whatever the kill percent for Neutral Shulk is for this F-Smash, Jump's kill percent should be 7% lower than that. The vectoring/air speed factor should be negligible because Shulk is not travelling far.

Shulk dies specifically at 22% in neutral. In Jump, he dies no sooner than 15%. That's a 7% difference! "This is a good result!" Since these percents are so low, I bet that Monado Smash won't even be killed. And... yep! Monado Smash survives until 16%.

Furthermore, Shulk takes 36% damage when in Buster, so the kill percent should be 18% if there's no weight change. Let's test that. Shulk's kill percent is 18%!

Right, so there's no weight change with the Jump and Buster Monado arts. Now that we know that, let's try to explain some of the previous results I had.

Luigi Up B:
Neutral Shulk - 69%; Jump - 68%; Buster - 65%
25.0% damage to Neutral, 30.5% damage to Jump (reads as 30), 28% damage to Buster (28.25). Theoretically, if there were no other factors, Shulk's kill percents should really be Vanilla: 69%, Jump: 63.5% (reads as 63%), Buster: 65.75 (reads as 65%).

In this case, Buster is actually about where it should be (I only know the recorded kill % to the significant figure of the whole number), but Jump is way off. This is usually the case. I had the opponent settings to control in training mode, so there's no way vectoring or DI made the difference. It's quite strange, especially with C. Falcon's side B. Maybe Shulk's horizontal air mobility being increased makes him go less vertically over time, changing the angle? Well... that doesn't explain why duck hunt is harder to kill higher than Yoshi with the up B, since Yoshi has both a higher weight and air mobility than duck hunt.

Well, at least we can conclude that being in Jump or Buster does not make you have very much more knockback than being in neutral. It's also good to know that they do not change your weight value and the extra knockback is due to the extra damage. This should have implications for how we treat the art in general.

edit: Now I've done some testing with that Little Mac stage spike that was found earlier. It only works on Battlefield/Big Battlefield and their Omegas and Wuhu Island Omega. It also works with G&W somewhat, but only on the omega of battlefield/big battlefield. I don't know if it works on any other character, but I tested any I thought it might.

The reason for Jump's inconsistency might be because of the Falling Speed stat that's naturally increased, because IIRC Falling Speed affects the vertical element of an attack's knockback. Perhaps Jump could be altering your vertical KO'ing results along with the secret suspicion that Jump may have an altered amount of Gravity to it as well. There's always BKB & KBG of the attack to be in the mix too.

In any case, reading about Jump & Buster's decreased Damage Defense not accounting for Weight is educational. Since Weight isn't the primary factor of why Shulk dies at earlier percentages, it's probably just Jump suffering from more knockback dealt to us because of taking more damage.

@ Masonomace The OP (Not my OP) should be updated with these facts

1) Jump Shulk's air speed is at 1.1750 (Fastest in the game w/o customs on)
2) Speed Shulk's air speed is at 1.0375 (3rd fastest in the game w/o customs on)
3) Normal Shulk's air speed is at 0.8000 (As slow as Ike's and Pacman's air speed)
4) Shield Shulk's air speed is at 0.4875 (Slowest in the game w/o customs on tied with Dedede)
5) Shulk's Perfect Pivot length (measured by windy hill blocks) is 4 at normal/buster/jump/smash/buster, 2 at shield and 7 at speed

Added a "Some Shulk Game Stats" section to the OP for this occasion~

 

[Kraryo]

Alright. I want you guys to try this out because I don't have the tools or method to do this. Can anyone test vision's counter window? How much it decreases per usage and the minimum number of frames for the counter window. Also, try checking if the counter window regenerates overtime or it just refreshes after a certain duration. Thanks.

I tested Vision's properties using the database Chrono Penguin posted a few pages back for frame reference. Having a 3rd controller to pause and unpause helped greatly with synching the input for Shulk's vision with the attacks to test against.

-All three versions of Vision have their active frames start at frame 6 (same speed as Lucario's jab1), no matter how much they decayed. Faster jabs such as Shulk's jab1 (frame 5) beat out Vision before it can even counter.

-Vision and Dash Vision can always counter a move with a hitbox coming out on frame 12 (D3's and Shulk's ftilt), assuming that the inputs for both moves are registered on the same frame. Completely decayed Power Vision (takes two uses) loses out to said attacks and frame 11 (such as Falcon's dtilt) moves. Fully decayed Power Vision can still counter Shulk's dtilt (frame 10).

-Therefore, counter windows for completely decayed Vision and Dash Vision are 6-12 frames (could be 6-13, but the only frame 13 moves I found were smash attacks), while fully decayed Power Vision's is 6-10 frames.

-Fresh Vision and fresh Power Vision with Shulk standing right in front of Ike counters his fsmash (slightly above 31 frames due to position and likely human error since I can't just hold down the input like with other attacks). Dash Vision can never counter Ike's fsmash head on even when fresh, but a fresh one can "counter" it by standing on a Battle Field platform above him where the hitboxes of the attack come out.

-If fresh Shulk quickly spams out four Visions and then quickly inputs the fifth at the exact same time as Palutena inputs her dtilt (frame 14), the counter will fail. A few seconds later (guessing around 4-6 seconds), Shulk can successfully counter said attack.

-Fresh Shulk who used one Vision can't counter Ike's fsmash (standing in front) until 3 seconds have passed. Unexpectedly, two consecutive Visions from fresh Shulk change the waiting time to 9-10 seconds. For 3 Visions, it's 14-15 seconds. 4, it's 17-18 seconds.

-Fresh Shulk who wastes used one Power Vision can't counter Ike's fsmash (standing in front) until 18 seconds have passed. Two Power Visions and it becomes 19 seconds.

 

[erico9001]

The reason for Jump's inconsistency might be because of the Falling Speed stat that's naturally increased, because IIRC Falling Speed affects the vertical element of an attack's knockback. Perhaps Jump could be altering your vertical KO'ing results along with the secret suspicion that Jump may have an altered amount of Gravity to it as well. There's always BKB & KBG of the attack to be in the mix too.

I've been wondering about the fall speed for a while. People have been saying that Shield Shulk falls slower and Jump Shulk falls faster. What is the basis for this? Maximum horizontal air speed/Air Mobility/Terminal Velocity/Gravity were all separate components in Brawl, and it's unlikely that has changed. I haven't observed any differences when eyeballing it in a few casual tests; I think I'll set up an official test using a custom stage.

edit: Okay, I tested and Jump does fall faster! Shield is the same speed though.

In any case, reading about Jump & Buster's decreased Damage Defense not accounting for Weight is educational. Since Weight isn't the primary factor of why Shulk dies at earlier percentages, it's probably just Jump suffering from more knockback dealt to us because of taking more damage.

Jump/Buster are more dangerous against really high damage attacks, such as Bowser/Ganondorf's F-Smash and Ness's neutral special. As I showed in the testing, jump is actually worse against Bowser's fully charged F-Smash in early percents than Smash. This carries through to different percents though. Although, as your damage continues to increase, Jump/Buster continue to get safer than Smash.

Also, I think this might have implications for Shulk dittos in Jump vs Smash. Since Smash does half damage, maybe Jump is not actually much worse off (like being 3% higher in damage rather than 6%). Jump may not actually be that bad thanks to improved vectoring (which is more noticeable when launched a long distance).

 

[Berserker.]

I've been wondering about the fall speed for a while. People have been saying that Shield Shulk falls slower and Jump Shulk falls faster. What is the basis for this? Maximum horizontal air speed/Air Mobility/Terminal Velocity/Gravity were all separate components in Brawl, and it's unlikely that has changed. I haven't observed any differences when eyeballing it in a few casual tests; I think I'll set up an official test using a custom stage..

Shield does not change fall speed. Only jump affects fall speed

 

[Opana]

Pretty sure this isn't know, but when I countered in the air while in jump my counter seemed to go a lot farther.

 

[erico9001]

Shield does not change fall speed. Only jump affects fall speed

Yep that's what I found at least. Is there any extracted data on this stuff? I'm wondering who has the fastest, since I've just found that Jump Shulk's terminal speed is actually a slight bit faster than Falco's, while Falco's gravity is a little bit higher.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Pretty sure this isn't know, but when I countered in the air while in jump my counter seemed to go a lot farther.

It's the same regardless of the mode.

 

[Berserker.]

Yep that's what I found at least. Is there any extracted data on this stuff? I'm wondering who has the fastest, since I've just found that Jump Shulk's terminal speed is actually a slight bit faster than Falco's, while Falco's gravity is a little bit higher.

Shulk's fall speed in jump is on par with Falco's (3.1)
Shulk in any art and vanilla when falling, he's on par with Mario and Robin (3.9)

Note that I didn't mention fast falling. That's different. All the other details are here

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-aerial-speed-list-horizontal-fall-and-fastfall.382495

 

[Opana]

So at early percents I love using Buster Dthrow->Dtilt, and stringing another Dthrow in there to w/e.

Anybody else use buster to combo/string early on?

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

So at early percents I love using Buster Dthrow->Dtilt, and stringing another Dthrow in there to w/e.

Anybody else use buster to combo/string early on?

Buster dthrow > fsmash and uthrow > utilt > utilt (and possibly an Air Slash) work at 0-30ish% as well;;

 

[Berserker.]

100% of Shulk's data is now available thinks to Thinkaman!

1. Jab1
2. Hits on real frame: 5.0
3. Damage: 3.5
4. KBG: 100
5. WKB: 40
6. Angle: 70
7. Enables state transition on real frame 11.0
8. 
   
9. Jab2
10. Hits on real frame: 5.0
11. Damage: 3.5
12. KBG: 100
13. WKB: 52
14. Angle: 66
15. Enables state transition on real frame 12.0
16. 
    
17. Jab3
18. Hits on real frame: 12.0
19. Damage: 5.3
20. KBG: 100 (530.0 relative)
21. BKB: 60
22. Angle: 50
23. Element: Slash
24. 
    
25. Dash Attack
26. Hits on real frame: 15.0
27. Damage: 11.0
28. KBG: 80 (880.0 relative)
29. BKB: 70
30. Angle: 60
31. Element: Slash
32. 
    
33. F-tilt (normal)
34. Hits on real frame: 12.0
35. Damage: 13.0
36. KBG: 92 (1196.0 relative)
37. BKB: 30
38. Angle: 361
39. Element: Slash
40. 
    
41. U-tilt
42. Hits on real frame: 9.9
43. Damage: 8.0
44. KBG: 90 (720.0 relative)
45. BKB: 70
46. Angle: 85
47. Element: Slash
48. 
    
49. D-tilt
50. Hits on real frame: 10.0
51. Damage: 9.0
52. KBG: 90 (810.0 relative)
53. BKB: 45
54. Angle: 60
55. Element: Slash
56. Trip Ratio: 0.300000011921
57. 
    
58. F-smash (high)
59. Hits on real frame: 14.0
60. Damage: 13.0
61. KBG: 125 (1625.0 relative)
62. BKB: 30
63. Angle: 361
64. Element: Pierce
65. Hitlag Multiplier: 2.0
66. Smash charge window on real frame 9.0
67. 
    
68. F-smash (normal)
69. Hits on real frame: 14.0
70. Damage: 13.0
71. KBG: 115 (1495.0 relative)
72. BKB: 30
73. Angle: 361
74. Element: Pierce
75. Hitlag Multiplier: 2.0
76. Smash charge window on real frame 9.0
77. 
    
78. F-smash (low)
79. Hits on real frame: 14.0
80. Damage: 13.0
81. KBG: 115 (1495.0 relative)
82. BKB: 30
83. Angle: 361
84. Element: Pierce
85. Hitlag Multiplier: 2.0
86. Smash charge window on real frame 9.0
87. 
    
88. U-smash
89. Hits on real frame: 18.0
90. Damage: 13.5
91. KBG: 98 (1323.0 relative)
92. BKB: 45
93. Angle: 89
94. Element: Pierce
95. Smash charge window on real frame 11.0
96. 
    
97. D-smash
98. Hits on real frame: 18.0
99. Damage: 14.0
100. KBG: 95 (1330.0 relative)
101. BKB: 50
102. Angle: 361
103. Element: Slash
104. Smash charge window on real frame 5.0
105. 
     
106. Nair
107. Hits on real frame: 13.0
108. Damage: 8.0
109. KBG: 100 (800.0 relative)
110. BKB: 40
111. Angle: 50
112. Element: Slash
113. Enables state transition on real frame 1.0
114. Cancels state transition on real frame 80.0
115. 
     
116. Fair
117. Hits on real frame: 14.0
118. Damage: 7.5
119. KBG: 100 (750.0 relative)
120. BKB: 46
121. Angle: 361
122. Element: Slash
123. Enables state transition on real frame 1.0
124. Cancels state transition on real frame 57.0
125. 
     
126. Bair
127. Hits on real frame: 18.0
128. Damage: 12.0
129. KBG: 100 (1200.0 relative)
130. BKB: 35
131. Angle: 361
132. Element: Slash
133. Enables state transition on real frame 1.0
134. Cancels state transition on real frame 79.0
135. 
     
136. Uair
137. Hits on real frame: 14.0
138. Damage: 10.0
139. KBG: 100 (1000.0 relative)
140. BKB: 55
141. Angle: 88
142. Element: Pierce
143. Hitlag Multiplier: 1.2
144. Enables state transition on real frame 1.0
145. Cancels state transition on real frame 79.0
146. 
     
147. Dair
148. Hits on real frame: 14.0
149. Damage: 11.0
150. KBG: 90 (990.0 relative)
151. BKB: 10
152. Angle: 270
153. Element: Pierce
154. Enables state transition on real frame 1.0
155. Cancels state transition on real frame 78.0
156. 
     
157. Grab
158. Hits on real frame: 7.0
159. Enables state transition on real frame 9.0
160. 
     
161. Dash Grab
162. Hits on real frame: 9.0
163. Enables state transition on real frame 11.0
164. 
     
165. Pivot Grab
166. Hits on real frame: 10.0
167. Enables state transition on real frame 12.0
168. 
     
169. Pummel
170. Hits on real frame: 5.0
171. Damage: 3.0
172. KBG: 100
173. WKB: 30
174. Angle: 361
175. Hitlag Multiplier: 1.5
176. 
     
177. F-throw
178. Hits on real frame: 0.0
179. Damage: 8.0
180. KBG: 70 (560.0 relative)
181. BKB: 60
182. Angle: 45
183. 
     
184. B-throw
185. Hits on real frame: 0.0
186. Damage: 9.0
187. KBG: 63 (567.0 relative)
188. BKB: 70
189. Angle: 135
190. 
     
191. U-throw
192. Hits on real frame: 0.0
193. Damage: 4.0
194. KBG: 80 (320.0 relative)
195. BKB: 60
196. Angle: 88
197. 
     
198. D-throw
199. Hits on real frame: 0.0
200. Damage: 4.0
201. KBG: 115 (460.0 relative)
202. BKB: 75
203. Angle: 50
204. 
     
205. unknown substate 0x242
206. Hits on real frame: 31.0
207. Damage: 16.0
208. Extra Shield Damage: 7
209. KBG: 100 (1600.0 relative)
210. BKB: 30
211. Angle: 140
212. Element: Slash
213. Hitlag Multiplier: 1.5
214. 
     
215. unknown substate 0x243
216. Hits on real frame: 28.0
217. Damage: 12.0
218. Extra Shield Damage: 7
219. KBG: 100 (1200.0 relative)
220. BKB: 30
221. Angle: 140
222. Element: Slash
223. Hitlag Multiplier: 1.5
224. 
     
225. unknown substate 0x244
226. Hits on real frame: 31.0
227. Damage: 15.0
228. Extra Shield Damage: 7
229. KBG: 100 (1500.0 relative)
230. BKB: 30
231. Angle: 140
232. Element: Slash
233. Hitlag Multiplier: 1.5
234. Begins super armor on real frame 0.0
235. Ends super armor on real frame 31.0
236. 
     
237. unknown substate 0x24a
238. Hits on real frame: 0.0
239. Damage: 16.0
240. Extra Shield Damage: 7
241. KBG: 100 (1600.0 relative)
242. BKB: 30
243. Angle: 140
244. Element: Slash
245. Hitlag Multiplier: 1.5
246. 
     
247. unknown substate 0x24b
248. Hits on real frame: 0.0
249. Damage: 16.0
250. Extra Shield Damage: 7
251. KBG: 100 (1600.0 relative)
252. BKB: 30
253. Angle: 140
254. Element: Slash
255. Hitlag Multiplier: 1.5
256. 
     
257. unknown substate 0x24c
258. Hits on real frame: 0.0
259. Damage: 11.0
260. Extra Shield Damage: 7
261. KBG: 100 (1100.0 relative)
262. BKB: 30
263. Angle: 140
264. Element: Slash
265. Hitlag Multiplier: 1.5
266. 
     
267. unknown substate 0x24e
268. Hits on real frame: 0.0
269. Damage: 15.0
270. Extra Shield Damage: 10
271. KBG: 100 (1500.0 relative)
272. BKB: 25
273. Angle: 140
274. Element: Slash
275. Hitlag Multiplier: 1.5
276. 
     
277. unknown substate 0x24f
278. Hits on real frame: 0.0
279. Damage: 18.0
280. Extra Shield Damage: 10
281. KBG: 100 (1800.0 relative)
282. BKB: 25
283. Angle: 140
284. Element: Slash
285. Hitlag Multiplier: 1.5
286. 
     
287. unknown substate 0x250
288. Hits on real frame: 0.0
289. Damage: 14.0
290. Extra Shield Damage: 10
291. KBG: 100 (1400.0 relative)
292. BKB: 25
293. Angle: 140
294. Element: Slash
295. Hitlag Multiplier: 1.5
296. 
     
297. unknown substate 0x252
298. Hits on real frame: 10.0
299. Damage: 6.0
300. KBG: 100
301. WKB: 140
302. Angle: 78
303. Element: Slash
304. Enables state transition on real frame 10.0
305. Enables forward ledge grabs on real frame 10.0
306. Enables all ledge grabs on real frame 40.0
307. 
     
308. unknown substate 0x253
309. Hits on real frame: 10.0
310. Damage: 6.0
311. KBG: 100
312. WKB: 120
313. Angle: 60
314. Element: Slash
315. Enables state transition on real frame 10.0
316. Enables forward ledge grabs on real frame 10.0
317. Enables all ledge grabs on real frame 40.0
318. 
     
319. unknown substate 0x254
320. Hits on real frame: 10.0
321. Damage: 9.0
322. KBG: 100
323. WKB: 140
324. Angle: 78
325. Element: Slash
326. Enables state transition on real frame 10.0
327. Enables forward ledge grabs on real frame 10.0
328. Enables all ledge grabs on real frame 40.0
329. 
     
330. unknown substate 0x25a
331. Hits on real frame: 15.0
332. Damage: 5.5
333. KBG: 170 (935.0 relative)
334. BKB: 35
335. Angle: 48
336. Element: Slash
337. Hitlag Multiplier: 1.3
338. 
     
339. unknown substate 0x25b
340. Hits on real frame: 10.0
341. Damage: 8.0
342. KBG: 130 (1040.0 relative)
343. BKB: 35
344. Angle: 48
345. Element: Slash
346. Hitlag Multiplier: 1.3
347. 
     
348. unknown substate 0x25c
349. Hits on real frame: 15.0
350. Damage: 10.0
351. KBG: 80 (800.0 relative)
352. BKB: 55
353. Angle: 80
354. Element: Slash
355. Hitlag Multiplier: 2.0
356. 
     
357. unknown substate 0x26a
358. Hits on real frame: 20.0
359. Damage: 13.0
360. KBG: 94 (1222.0 relative)
361. BKB: 70
362. Angle: 50
363. Element: Slash
364. Hitlag Multiplier: 2.0
365. Unblockable
366. 
     
367. unknown substate 0x26b
368. Hits on real frame: 12.5
369. Damage: 11.0
370. KBG: 94 (1034.0 relative)
371. BKB: 70
372. Angle: 35
373. Element: Slash
374. Hitlag Multiplier: 2.0
375. Unblockable
376. 
     
377. unknown substate 0x26c
378. Hits on real frame: 42.0
379. Damage: 20.0
380. KBG: 100 (2000.0 relative)
381. BKB: 70
382. Angle: 50
383. Element: Slash
384. Hitlag Multiplier: 2.0
385. Unblockable
386. 
     
387. unknown substate 0x26e
388. Hits on real frame: 8.0
389. Damage: 10.0
390. KBG: 84 (840.0 relative)
391. BKB: 70
392. Angle: 50
393. Element: Slash
394. Hitlag Multiplier: 2.0
395. Unblockable
396. 
     
397. unknown substate 0x26f
398. Hits on real frame: 8.0
399. Damage: 8.0
400. KBG: 84 (672.0 relative)
401. BKB: 70
402. Angle: 35
403. Element: Slash
404. Hitlag Multiplier: 2.0
405. Unblockable
406. 
     
407. unknown substate 0x270
408. Hits on real frame: 12.0
409. Damage: 17.0
410. KBG: 100 (1700.0 relative)
411. BKB: 70
412. Angle: 50
413. Element: Slash
414. Hitlag Multiplier: 2.0
415. Unblockable
416. 
     
417. unknown substate 0x282
418. Hits on real frame: 20.0
419. Damage: 3.0
420. KBG: 100
421. WKB: 200
422. Angle: 80
423. Unblockable
424. 
     
425. unknown substate 0x283
426. Hits on real frame: 0.0
427. Damage: 5.0
428. KBG: 180 (900.0 relative)
429. BKB: 105
430. Angle: 361
431. 
     
432. unknown substate 0x287
433. Hits on real frame: 15.0
434. Damage: 12.0
435. KBG: 80
436. WKB: 1
437. Angle: 361
438. 
     
439. **********
440. END shulk

unknown substate 0x242, unknown substate 0x243, unknown substate 0x244 is back slash (back hit). I don't know what unknoen substate 0x24a and 0x24b could be. It's probably back slash (back hit) but the hits on real frame is at 0.0. So much back slash data. From unknown substate 0x242 until unknown substate 0x25c.

 

[Masonomace]

I've been wondering about the fall speed for a while. People have been saying that Shield Shulk falls slower and Jump Shulk falls faster. What is the basis for this? Maximum horizontal air speed/Air Mobility/Terminal Velocity/Gravity were all separate components in Brawl, and it's unlikely that has changed. I haven't observed any differences when eyeballing it in a few casual tests; I think I'll set up an official test using a custom stage.

edit: Okay, I tested and Jump does fall faster! Shield is the same speed though.

Jump/Buster are more dangerous against really high damage attacks, such as Bowser/Ganondorf's F-Smash and Ness's neutral special. As I showed in the testing, jump is actually worse against Bowser's fully charged F-Smash in early percents than Smash. This carries through to different percents though. Although, as your damage continues to increase, Jump/Buster continue to get safer than Smash.

Also, I think this might have implications for Shulk dittos in Jump vs Smash. Since Smash does half damage, maybe Jump is not actually much worse off (like being 3% higher in damage rather than 6%). Jump may not actually be that bad thanks to improved vectoring (which is more noticeable when launched a long distance).

I used to think Shield decreases falling speed, but it feels like that because of Shield or even worse, HShield having the slowest air speed. Which btw for us, Shield Shulk isn't the absolute worst character for recovering in the game (imo). I feel Shield recovers better than these guys but not by much:

So now that Jump & Buster are more-less de-confirmed for altering the weight, Smash remains as the sole MArt to be a combo-breaking MArt early on (I'd say Shield too, but it can backfire on you if they're aware of the knockback change), since Jump or Buster would only make those situations worse. Plus I now have more understanding from the mention of Jump vs Smash.

Pretty sure this isn't know, but when I countered in the air while in jump my counter seemed to go a lot farther.

This kind of reminds me of that post I made in the Shulk Video Thread. What MArt Shulk has on may not factor in with Vision's distance increase, but something about this moment urges my head for scratching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0UHsIB2oqY&feature=youtu.be&t=2m47s

Buster does not improve mobility, which confuses me as to how HRNut got that kind of distance. This is just a regular Vision btw.

 

[Berserker.]

I used to think Shield decreases falling speed, but it feels like that because of Shield or even worse, HShield having the slowest air speed. Which btw for us, Shield Shulk isn't the absolute worst character for recovering in the game (imo). I feel Shield recovers better than these guys but not by much:

So now that Jump & Buster are more-less de-confirmed for altering the weight, Smash remains as the sole MArt to be a combo-breaking MArt early on (I'd say Shield too, but it can backfire on you if they're aware of the knockback change), since Jump or Buster would only make those situations worse. Plus I now have more understanding from the mention of Jump vs Smash.

This kind of reminds me of that post I made in the Shulk Video Thread. What MArt Shulk has on may not factor in with Vision's distance increase, but something about this moment urges my head for scratching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0UHsIB2oqY&feature=youtu.be&t=2m47s

Buster does not improve mobility, which confuses me as to how HRNut got that kind of distance. This is just a regular Vision btw.

Buster was confirmed to not affect weight ever since. It artificially decreases it (not by much) though due to the additional damage received but the weight value doesn't change. It only affects damage, knockback and damage received. Only those attributes were changed. Buster never had any effect on mobility

Jump nerfs weight but the amount is still unknown at the moment

 

[erico9001]

Buster was confirmed to not affect weight ever since. It artificially decreases it (not by much) though due to the additional damage received but the weight value doesn't change. It only affects damage, knockback and damage received. Only those attributes were changed. Buster never had any effect on mobility

Jump nerfs weight but the amount is still unknown at the moment

Jump does not nerf weight. I showed this with those kill percents above. First get the damage that a move does on Vanilla Shulk and then the damage that move does on Jump Shulk. Subtract the damage it does to Vanilla from the damage it does to Jump. Then get a kill percent from using that move. You should find that the kill percent for Monado Jump is equal to the difference between the damages subtracted from the kill percent for Vanilla. I will admit it may be possible I'm wrong since I only specifically found those results for two attacks. All the others were being effected by Jump's faser fall speed (probably). I'll test again to be sure.

Kirby's fully charged F-Smash does 21% damage to Vanilla Shulk, 25% to Jump. Jump's kill percent should be 4% lower than Vanilla's
Kirby kill % for Vanilla Shulk is 56% (I have kirby's foot touch a lava line on FD for consistency, Shulk is in practice mode position, stage FD), so Jump's should be 52%. Testing... yep, 52%, no sooner.

 

[Berserker.]

Jump does not nerf weight. I showed this with those kill percents above. First get the damage that a move does on Vanilla Shulk and then the damage that move does on Jump Shulk. Subtract the damage it does to Vanilla from the damage it does to Jump. Then get a kill percent from using that move. You should find that the kill percent for Monado Jump is equal to the difference between the damages subtracted from the kill percent for Vanilla. I will admit it may be possible I'm wrong since I only specifically found those results for two attacks. All the others were being effected by Jump's faser fall speed (probably). I'll test again to be sure.

Kirby's fully charged F-Smash does 21% damage to Vanilla Shulk, 25% to Jump. Jump's kill percent should be 4% lower than Vanilla's
Kirby kill % for Vanilla Shulk is 56% (I have kirby's foot touch a lava line on FD for consistency, Shulk is in practice mode position, stage FD), so Jump's should be 52%. Testing... yep, 52%, no sooner.

Thanks for informing me of this

Seems like Masonomace has made the changes already to the OP. Good job guys

 

[Masonomace]

A tiny tiny tiny detail I'm curious of is v1.0.4 F-air's landing lag. It's obviously not 21 frames anymore, & I could figure out whether it's shorter or longer than N-air or U-air's landing lag if I test in 1/4x speed buffering two Shulks to compare F-air's landing lag to another Shulk who does U-air first, then N-air second to get a good guesstimate of the number. U-air is 17, while N-air is 12, so yeah.


EDIT: @ Berserker. according to this wiki about the MArts, HMArts last for 5 seconds & recharge / have a cooldown of 15 seconds based on the description. And DMArts last for 20 seconds while only having a 5 second cooldown window. I thought your Custom Specials could provide the cooldowns of the MArt Customs, & I can come back to this & re-confirm if it's fairly / exactly true or not.

 

[Berserker.]

EDIT: @ Berserker. according to this wiki about the MArts, HMArts last for 5 seconds & recharge / have a cooldown of 15 seconds based on the description. And DMArts last for 20 seconds while only having a 5 second cooldown window. I thought your Custom Specials could provide the cooldowns of the MArt Customs, & I can come back to this & re-confirm if it's fairly / exactly true or not.

Oh, I already know of this (and I confirm it) but I didn't bother updating the customs description because of their current status. Thanks for reminding me. I'll update the OP

Edit: Changed the durations