This is either going to be really great or really terrible

[Pakman]

I USED to think this was true, but now I've found this argument completely untrue for vegetarianism

There are various ways to obtain nutrients such as Iron, Protien and Vitamin B12 aside from eating meat, fish and fowls

I subscribe to a thing called Metabolic typing. Basically metabolic typing says that each person processes food differently. Person A may need lots of Fats and Oils to function optimally while person B may need certain veggies and grains to function optimally. If you feed Person A a diet of ONLY veggies and grains, he will lose energy, get fat, and get sick, while on that same diet Person B feels great loses weight and stays healthy. This is why the cookie cutter low fat low calorie diets do not have lasting results for everyone. (The FDA is a bunch of corrupt jerkbags, but that is a whole different story.)

If you have a protein heavy metabolic type, vegetarianism will make you sick, and unhealthy. For many, you cannot get sufficient amounts of protein, vitamin B12, vitamin A and vitamin D from a vegetarian diet. It would require supplements which totally ruin your caloric intake. The neat thing about food is that the calories you get from eating are more than enough to process the nutrients in the food. Supplements do not give those calories and vegetarianism makes it difficult to make up for it.

Vegetarianism can work, but you have to be a person who can optimally work on non-meat fuel. I would also HIGHLY recommend any vegetarian eat organic vegetables. Plants become healthy foods by the nutrients they gain from the LIVING soil. By living I mean the micro organisms found in soil. Pesticides kill these micro organisms and basically make fruits and vegetables nutritionally useless.

 

[Jam Stunna]

For the record, I should state that I am not against eating meat, and if this vegetarian thing doesn't last, it wouldn't be that big of a deal to me.

My position is essentially right there with Man of Popsicle. It's not about how the animals die, it's about how they live before they die. The way that the mega meat companies treat their animals is really terrible.

If I ever did go back to meat, I would only buy from local farmer's markets. At least there the animals come from local farms where they aren't caged from birth to death.

I can understand the difference of opinion on this subject, but please, for my own sanity, spare me any discussions about "nature" and what humans are/aren't supposed to do. It's really just glorified navel-staring and totally irrelevant to the topic.

 

[SuperBowser]

My position is essentially right there with Man of Popsicle. It's not about how the animals die, it's about how they live before they die. The way that the mega meat companies treat their animals is really terrible.

This is the most important distinction for me too. The life most chickens live is barely what I would constitute ''life''.

Most of the meat I eat is outside my house, so I figured I may as well go vegetarian.

 

[Pakman]

Eating cage-free free-range chicken and grassfed beef supports local farmers. It is pretty expensive, but you are not only supporting animal rights and your local farmers. You are also eating a much healthier meal.

 

[SuperBowser]

Honestly, I probably would consider eating free range chicken. However, I don't like meat so much that I'm willing to spend double the money for it and restaurants/fast food shops/supermarkets do not use this meat in their own products. If you can cook, vegetarian food is not inferior in the slightest, so I'm quite happy to have it.

I disagree that it's necessarily healthier to eat meat but it's a long debate and I'd have to pull studies out (which I don't have time for right now). Three of my grandparents have been vegetarian all their lives and the fourth is more or less forced into it since his wife does the cooking. They don't go out their way in the slightest to be ''healthy'' but all four are in their 80s and all four have never had a deficiency of any sort.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

You know, we as humans like swimming in the ocean. And we as humans tend to accidentally bleed. A shark comes and eats one of us. OH MY GOD! WHY WOULD AN ANIMAL EAT ANOTHER ANIMAL? THAT'S NOT RIGHT! I mean, come on! How stupid can you sound? It's what animals do! Something called the FOOD CHAIN! You can't just cut us out. Unbalance occours. What about, we put all of the cannibals in a reserve for three months, all armed with a spear. Either the "vegetarian appropriate" food would run out, or another animal will put you in danger, forcing you to kill it. The only reason you can be vegetarians is because our society gives you that luxury. You CAN just pick out any food you want from the market, imported from who knows where. Eating meat is natural, and what we're doing in our society is speeding up the process. Making what would be a bit of a hardship faster. And plus, making an animal live destined to be eaten, it makes the animal used to the life it's living. It sounds horrible, but that animal's purpose is to be eaten, whereas farm animals live to be farm animals.

Case and point, there's no strong argument to being a vegetarian. Granted, I WAS a vegetarian for two weeks, only forced out from my mom, telling me we don't have the money to support the lifestyle, which is understandable. But I was one for the challenge. Not because it's to SAVE THE ANIMALS! I never regretted turning back.

I respect vegetarians. It's a tough choice to change your whole life. But I'll never agree with it.

 

[Mr.Freeman]

Okay.

If you're going to type out long walls of text pointing out the obvious, then ending it with "I respect it, but I don't like the lifestyle", then just say that. I'm pretty sure most people know how the food chain works.

I'm not vegan, by the way. Most veggies taste bland to me.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Well if it's so obvious, then why are there vegetarians? That's my point.

 

[Mr.Freeman]

Vegeterians have the choice to do it. Simple as that.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Well, Jam, you've completely baffled me this time. Those poor vegetables...

Just make sure to watch your health. Vegetarian diets can leave you with dangerous deficiencies if you don't do them right. You're probably smart enough to do your research without me telling you to though.

 

[SuperBowser]

I never knew so many people believed this...

You guys realise that vegetarians have a higher life expectance than meat eaters right? I know correlation =/= causation, but it's certainly a good sign that being vegetarian isn't risking your health.

edit: should add, the only real increased risk you run is low iron. This isn't life threatening and it's pretty easy to avoid as long as you're aware of it. Most other nutrients are easy to find.

 

[Ganonsburg]

I never knew so many people believed this...

You guys realise that vegetarians have a higher life expectance than meat eaters right? I know correlation =/= causation, but it's certainly a good sign that being vegetarian isn't risking your health.

Show us a study then. Also, with your grandparents, there are people who are among the oldest living and they aren't vegetarian. So just giving specific instances doesn't really mean anything to the majority. It may apply to you because your grandparent's genes passed down to you, but that doesn't mean it applies to everyone.

I can't really find any science articles that say anything either way; most sites that talk about it are not sites I would trust for accurate statistics. But here's something. So yeah, you can be healthier, but a lot of the things that make it healthier are also easy to apply to a non-vegetarian diet.

While we're on the subject, I have yet to see any reliable sites say that not eating meat is the cause of these benefits. They all say "vegetarians have..," which really only tells us that vegetarians might be doing something right. They don't tell us what happens when we take the All-American diet of soda (or beer), chemical-dosed burger, and bottomless fries and make it more like milk (or water), local beef (and veggies/fruit), and a salad or carrots or something.

Basically what my point is that there needs to be a balance. Our bodies are designed to eat meat, so taking meat 100% away is probably a bad idea. However, taking veggies/fruit 100% away is equally a bad idea. If you blindly say, "MEET R BAD 4 U" then you'll probably have the problems mentioned above.

 

[SuperBowser]

I like how you fail to provide any evidence for your own assertions. Saying things over and over doesn't make them so. I'm quite happy to provide studies but you'll have to wait a while. I'm busy right now. And I suspect most people will just ignore them anyway.

I've quoted these studies in a previous SWF vegetrian topic. I can find better ones, but this will do for now - people who eat a lot of meat die more than those who eat none. Remember, we aren't talking about vegans (their diet is diffifcult) so it's best to ignore studies that talk about them. http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Vegetarians-live-longer-says-study

 

[LordoftheMorning]

I never knew so many people believed this...

You guys realise that vegetarians have a higher life expectance than meat eaters right? I know correlation =/= causation, but it's certainly a good sign that being vegetarian isn't risking your health.

What matters is what you eat, not what you don't eat. I'd attribute that life expectancy to the tendency of a vegetarian to be more health conscious in the first place. You can definitely screw up the diet and yourself if you don't keep yourself properly nourished.

 

[Pakman]

The results of the study suggest that while a low level of meat consumption may have a desirable effect on life expectancy, it is a balanced lifestyle, both in terms of nutrition and activity that leads to longevity.

All I gotta say is DUH SCIENCE

 

[Skrlx]

i saw on the news last night that they discovered even more health benefits towards eating fish

take that for what you will

 

[Ganonsburg]

I like how you fail to provide any evidence for your own assertions. Saying things over and over doesn't make them so. I'm quite happy to provide studies but you'll have to wait a while. I'm busy right now. And I suspect most people will just ignore them anyway.

I've quoted these studies in a previous SWF vegetrian topic. I can find better ones, but this will do for now - people who eat a lot of meat die more than those who eat none. Remember, we aren't talking about vegans (their diet is diffifcult) so it's best to ignore studies that talk about them. http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Vegetarians-live-longer-says-study

Dude....did you read the link you posted? It said that those who occasionally eat meat are better off than the others. Which supports what I said about balance. Not only that, but it didn't say that not eating meat was the cause of better lives.

As for support for my assertions, there's really not much to support. If you look below, you'll see why.

Show us a study then. Also, with your grandparents, there are people who are among the oldest living and they aren't vegetarian. So just giving specific instances doesn't really mean anything to the majority. It may apply to you because your grandparent's genes passed down to you, but that doesn't mean it applies to everyone.

Don't need evidence because I'm stating a statistical fact that individual experience does not necessarily make something true for most people. Anecdotal Evidence.

I can't really find any science articles that say anything either way; most sites that talk about it are not sites I would trust for accurate statistics. But here's something. So yeah, you can be healthier, but a lot of the things that make it healthier are also easy to apply to a non-vegetarian diet.

I provided a source here, and if you read it you'd notice that they say that having a balance of foods is better than fries and bananas only. Notice that they said grains, vegetables, fruits, and a calcium source (which includes meat, among other things). Then I note here that it doesn't say that eating vegetables only is the cause of their health, it only says that having a limited diet is not good.

While we're on the subject, I have yet to see any reliable sites say that not eating meat is the cause of these benefits. They all say "vegetarians have..," which really only tells us that vegetarians might be doing something right. They don't tell us what happens when we take the All-American diet of soda (or beer), chemical-dosed burger, and bottomless fries and make it more like milk (or water), local beef (and veggies/fruit), and a salad or carrots or something.

This is basically a reiteration of the previous paragraph and the article I provided.

Basically what my point is that there needs to be a balance. Our bodies are designed to eat meat, so taking meat 100% away is probably a bad idea. However, taking veggies/fruit 100% away is equally a bad idea. If you blindly say, "MEET R BAD 4 U" then you'll probably have the problems mentioned above.

And this is common sense. If a system is designed to use one thing, and you don't give it that, then the system won't work so well.

All I gotta say is DUH SCIENCE

lol, basically. It's funny that so many people forget this and automatically assume that the most extreme studies are the ones that will always be right.

 

[SuperBowser]

Dude....did you read the link you posted? It said that those who occasionally eat meat are better off than the others. Which supports what I said about balance. Not only that, but it didn't say that not eating meat was the cause of better lives.

As for support for my assertions, there's really not much to support. If you look below, you'll see why.:

I'm fully aware of that finding. You can attribute it to the same problems highlighted by previous posters. The people who eat meat sparingly are more likely to look after the rest of their health too, they unsurprisingly live longer than a standard vegetarian. Meat is not the reason for their greater life expectancy and proving such a thing would be very difficult.

But you don't get off so easily. When we are dealing with the extreme terms originally used, it is only fair to compare all vegetarians to all meat eaters. In this respect, I have shown vegetarians do live longer than meat eaters. People have implied it is nutritionally inferior to be vegetarian in this topic. I merely wished to show it is not unhealthy to be vegetarian, not that it is superior to be a vegetarian. I already admitted correlation =/= causation and have not stated vegetarianism is healthier. I think the study I provided showed what I wanted.

And this is common sense. If a system is designed to use one thing, and you don't give it that, then the system won't work so well.

Naa. That is you asserting your opinion as fact.

All I gotta say is DUH SCIENCE

Good. We can agree that being vegetarian will not predispose you to a serious health deficiency as much as any other person's diet then. As I mentioned already, the only deficiency to watch out for is iron.

 

[Ganonsburg]

Naa. That is you asserting your opinion as fact.

You go pour the gasoline your minivan or Prius or whatever uses into a tractor trailer designed to use diesel and tell me how it goes. Or you could replace the water running water wheels with wind.

And for the record, I showed that vegetarians ARE subject to health problems. I don't think people were saying that being vegetarian is nutritionally inferior to being a meat-eater, just that being a vegetarian has a different set of problems that people need to be aware of.

 

[SuperBowser]

Well okay then. I think you overstate the problem though. The difference in your example is that our bodies can adapt to a vegetarian diet very easily.

It's really not difficult to be a vegetarian because your body will naturally crave what it needs . For example, you don't really crave meat when you want a steak, you just need some protein. Our bodies are pretty smart. Vegetarians will just crave different protein-rich foods, but they'll get their dietary requirements regardless. I mean, if we are talking about a slob who eats pizzas everyday for dinner who then becomes vegetarian then sure. He might well encounter nutritional problems. But it's only exacerbating what was already a poor diet.

For a normal person, changing to a vegetarian diet imposes very little risk to your health. Chances are it will improve your diet because you begin examining the food you eat!

EDIT: to put it another way: My study shows it would be more prudent to worry about the general population's diet and lifestyle than a vegetarian's.

 

[Wrath`]

My one friend had a similar revaluation to yours Jam, but unfortunately she became incredibly ill after a month, it's been a year now and she constantly missed school and such. If you feel wierd do not continue it.

I remember seeing on one of those morning doctor shows that certain people have a "reverse allergy" where they need some mineral/something in meat to maintain homeostasis, but I can not find that .

 

[El Nino]

Hijacking a computer to bring you moral support.

And supplementary information to get you started on the new path you have chosen in your life.

Health:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vegetarian-diet/HQ01596/NSECTIONGROUP=2

Recipes:
http://www.happycow.net/vegetarian-recipes.html

For purely promotion purposes:
http://www.vegetarian-nutrition.info/updates/vegetarian_diets_health_benefits.php

You'll want to keep track of your B12 intake, and also iron and calcium. Supplements are recommended, just be aware that some supplements are derived from animal sources.

However, this store:
http://store.veganessentials.com/vitamins-and-natural-therapeutics-c43.aspx

...sells vegan products without animal by-products, and they do have a vitamin selection. I can't vouch for them because I haven't tried any of it, just sayin.

Might update this post if I get any feedback from some of my friends, who are, for better or worse, real hardcore about it. They even own vegan shoes, heh.

 

[M.K]

Eating cage-free free-range chicken and grassfed beef supports local farmers. It is pretty expensive, but you are not only supporting animal rights and your local farmers. You are also eating a much healthier meal.

^This.
My mother is the type to read some mumbo-jumbo about carcinogens and the moral oddities of food, so she's started buying only free-range, cage-free, grass-fed bison and steaks. Overally, they just taste DIVINE (I know this is hard to hear, but I'm proving that these healthier animals indeed taste better, and I feel LESS for them before they died).

I only know one vegetarian irl, and he's so bent on trying to convince everyone it's supreme that I find the whole concept absurd. I don't care that you are abstaining from meat, congratulations, but do not force your ways on me, and don't expect me to bow down to you BECAUSE you do so.

 

[Dre89]

The only reason you can be vegetarians is because our society gives you that luxury.

And the only reason why we have the luxury is because society was made by urbanising natural habitats and killing off animals in those areas.

Basically, to be vegetarian, or uphold animal rights, humans actually needed to destroy animal habitats and their lives so that we could uphold those ideals.

Had we done nothing of the sort, we would either have to be killing animals anwyay to eat them, or killing them off by eating plants that they eat, essentailly imbalancing and corrupting any ecosystem we infiltrate.

So I agree, that animal rights argument is hugely ironic and contradictory.

 

[El Nino]

Basically, to be vegetarian, or uphold animal rights, humans actually needed to destroy animal habitats and their lives so that we could uphold those ideals.

Historically, there were a lot of things done in the name of science that are no longer condoned in the scientific community, including the use of human beings as test subjects without their consent, and the use of test methods that were painful to live subjects.

We have since moved beyond that, and the current regulations in place in the US forbids the unnecessary use of live test subjects, "unnecessary" to include the repetition of old tests that have already been verified and their information taken in by the current body of knowledge.

My point here is that there is such thing as "progress." We used to kill each other with rocks and spears, but now our technology has advanced to the point where we are forced to pay consideration to the other side in order to forestall MAD.

Empathy is a trait that has come about due to communal living in human beings. There are times when it is cast aside due to external pressures. However, in the absence of those external pressures, there is reason to believe that that empathy might be retained.

Morals are often not logical, but their progression in the face of social change can be viewed in a way that makes sense. Ethics can be expected to evolve as societies evolve.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I only know one vegetarian irl, and he's so bent on trying to convince everyone it's supreme that I find the whole concept absurd. I don't care that you are abstaining from meat, congratulations, but do not force your ways on me, and don't expect me to bow down to you BECAUSE you do so.

Yes, this is a HUGE problem. I hate the claim to moral superiority that some vegetarians make.

 

[Dre89]

Historically, there were a lot of things done in the name of science that are no longer condoned in the scientific community, including the use of human beings as test subjects without their consent, and the use of test methods that were painful to live subjects.

We have since moved beyond that, and the current regulations in place in the US forbids the unnecessary use of live test subjects, "unnecessary" to include the repetition of old tests that have already been verified and their information taken in by the current body of knowledge.

My point here is that there is such thing as "progress." We used to kill each other with rocks and spears, but now our technology has advanced to the point where we are forced to pay consideration to the other side in order to forestall MAD.

Empathy is a trait that has come about due to communal living in human beings. There are times when it is cast aside due to external pressures. However, in the absence of those external pressures, there is reason to believe that that empathy might be retained.

Morals are often not logical, but their progression in the face of social change can be viewed in a way that makes sense. Ethics can be expected to evolve as societies evolve.

All I'm saying is that it would have been impossible to uphold the animal rights ideal since the beginning of humanity, for if we did we would have died out by now.

We would not be allowed to urbanise anything, for we would be infringing on the rights of animals by destroying their habitat.

We would not be able to eat them, for we would be depriving them of their right to life.

We wouldn't even be able to eat vegetation either, for we would out compete the herbivores, evtually killing them off, which would cause a huge imbalance in the ecosystem.

Humans aren't supposed to co-operate with ecosystems, we're not welcome in them, because our participation corrupts them. We're supposed to conquer them.

Basically, if we never infringed upon the rights of animals we would have died out.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

The question that popped into my head was did you stop playing MH3?

Btw, MH3 also reminded me of killing a cow when I killed the dino, (maybe it's because the dino make the noise of a cow when it dies) but I got a different messege from it. It reminded me of how back in the day you had to kill what you eat, and you needed to eat to survive. So I was thinking how hard it must have been to get everything your self instead of it being ready for you to pick up down the street.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I stopped playing it because I honestly don't have the time for single-player games anymore, but it seemed pretty neat from what I did play.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

It's quite addicting actually, too bad you stopped at the part where you killed the most insignificant monster in the game.

Irony huh?

 

[Sucumbio]

Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet. ~Albert Einstein

Which is ironic considering the eating of fish has been credited for the evolution of the "bigger brain."

I won't discount that vegetarians are probably healthier individuals than red-meat/pork/poultry eaters. Fortunately essential fatty acids are prevalent in many nuts and beans, and there are a wealth of nutrients in many alternative foods.

But me, well it's just not for me. I gotta eat me a steak every now and then. Burgers, pulled pork and baby back ribs, mmm, yeah, I'm just too fond of meat to give it up.