this is a peanut butter

[alphameric]

Grmo: Forget about it, you obviously don't understand in the slightest.

Camping is just as effective in Brawl as it was in Melee.
The fact that it is easier this time around is irrelevant.

Nobody thinks that they can approach because they always think they will get punished and die from it.
That isn't the case, so the only other reason I can think of is that there is no creativity with most people complaining about Brawl.

I'm going to find it rather amusing when people start releasing some insane footage from matches and the haters start to recognizing Brawl for its true colors. That or, somebody starts putting out some USEFUL data about the game and the people hating on Brawl see it in a new light and start leeching those techniques.


Also, since it's very likely there will be an attack on me shortly after this reply.. how about making an on topic post instead.

 

[MetaKnight0]

Also, since it's very likely there will be an attack on me shortly after this reply.. how about making an on topic post instead.

Here's my ontopic post!

Man my photoshop skills are getting better

 

[alphameric]

incorrect, as i am still here.

 

[MetaKnight0]

ORDER OF OPERATIONS

That'll be the last one because I imagine GRMO is mega pissed at my pictures now xd

how2bnr1douchebag

 

[Patooty]

lol, too good

 

[Pointman Rob]

This is a post for everyone who still actually cares about good discussion.

Here's how the last page or two goes if you clean it up a bit and remove all the anger, unnecessary hate, childish personal attacks, and subsequent flame posts. (im paraphrasing, and leaving out the olimar part of the discussion btw)

Alphameric: Brawl is more about reading your opponent than Melee. With fewer true combos, a greater emphasis is placed on mindgames, whereas in Melee, you could fall into a very simple attack pattern (like pillaring and waveshining) and still be successful. Also, as I've stated before, camping can be countered. For example, catching items during attacks makes it easier to get inside characters like Peach. In summation I think Brawl is a good improvement on Melee.

Europhoria: I disagree alpha, the advanced techs that you mentionned (like pillaring) were very difficult to perform consistently and required lots of practice. It also takes a lot of experience to realize WHEN you should use said techniques, since simply spamming them would result in punishment. I would also have to disagree with your camping statement, since people will always find ways to effectively camp (certainly, the most successful Melee players were expert campers, and only the most seasoned opponents were able to break their camping and apply pressure)

Alphameric: This is true, but Brawl is very different from Melee - I don't think its fair to infer that because certain ways of playing were effective in Melee, those same methods will be equally effective in Brawl. This early on its understandable that people will gravitate to old, familiar ways of playing, but I remain firm in my belief that sometime soon it will be proven that camping is not as effective a strategy as everyone currently believes.

Europhoria: Perhaps in the future such will be the case, but right now there is overwhelming evidence that shows campy play is king. Most winners of major Brawl tournaments so far have done so by playing defensive, ultra conservative, and very campy. I'm afraid I just don't see what you see in regards to anti-camping strategies.

Alphameric: Just you wait. Camping may be just as effective as it was in Melee _now_, but soon people will start finding ways around it, and no doubt Brawl will be seen in a new light after they do.

Europhoria: I guess we will have to wait and see.

See how nice that is? I'd respect both of your opinions a lot more if you'd grow up. You guys actually make good points, but you somehow turn those points into stupid attacks on one another. Bury the hatchet already.

 

[Grmo]

^ Thanks. This thread needed that lol. Anyway yeah, back to discussion:

You're right in a sense, when you said that more emphasis is placed on mindgames and reading your opponent. All logic points the discussion in that direction. However, I think we have to take into account the anti-tech skill factors that are in the game. Those are: no wavedashing, no dash dancing, no wavelanding tricks, and basically no fast or tricky ground movements that don't risk you tripping. Now while there are a lot more aerial things going on, it's still harder to trick your opponents into getting grabbed. Also, since grabs aren't as lethal as in Melee, there's less pressure because the punishment for being grabbed isn't that huge. Stuff like that.

I just think that reading your opponent is too easy in many cases, although I'm not really sure about that nor do I have any particular proof, so it's not an argument. In Melee things were happening a lot faster so reading was harder. Here it just seems like characters are slower, and the floatyness of everything makes reading your opponent more predictable. At first I thought that sort of "tech chasing" in the air, as in following the air dodge or predicting the attack would be the key to winning. I'm still not sure about it, because since then there have been some good arguments against it. I think that this is a good example of something resembling a combo though:

Fox up smashes his opponent, they DI up and away. Fox runs, reverse aerial rush's into a full jump (no attack yet), and jumps up towards them. They see this (because there's so much time in between events), and they attack to outprioritize him. He fast falls out of it, predicting either an air dodge or an attack, and knowing that he can time the coming attack properly either way. He then double jumps back up, much to his opponents surprise, and lands a bair. Actually a uair might be more practical in which case the RAR was unnecessary in the first place. I dunno. Stuff like that seems to make sense, but it'll have to be tested out. The only thing that would hold it back is speed and aerial maneuverability, which Brawl Fox lacks. Honestly he's so stiff in this game >_>

 

[alphameric]

Rob: Bscly
Grmo: There is dash dancing in brawl

edit: also, i never said anything about wanting to get inside peach lol

 

[Crooked Crow]

Except dash dancing is utterly pathetic in Brawl <_<
And I play Link in Melee lol

 

[Pointman Rob]

dash dancing not really as useful for spacing anymore. but pivot grabs and smashes are beastly, and much more useful than they were in melee.

 

[Grmo]

Dashdancing is in yes, but it's even tighter than sheik's was in Melee. At least sheik had a wider dashdance via quick dashes, but this is just nuts. Not to mention you can trip so it's not worth it at all. I think trying to dashdance in a match warrants a slap in the face with a trout.

 

[KirbyKaze]

dash dance is stupid in brawl because it takes 2 (or 4? don't remember) motions per rotation and each motion has a 1/100 chance of causing tripping (this seems to be the theory right now).

so if you dash dance for any period of time at all, you're basically tempting the game to trip you. you can't get any use out of dash dance at a distance anymore, because of the risk of leaving yourself open to a random tripping, and dash dance in close range is dumb because it doesn't give enough distance to get you out of the way of anything or put you in range of anything.

also i am confused as to why people say brawl has a higher mental demand when you are allowed to make anywhere between 7 - 15 mistakes per stock before you run the risk of losing it whereas in other fighters you can make 1 - 3 before you die.

 

[Runawayfire]

dash dance is stupid in brawl

Yup,, for all the reasons you posted plus more.
The only time I find myself using dashdancing is for fakeout and getting that SLIGHTLY different timing for a running grab.... which isn't usefull at all considering melee dashdancing.

also i am confused as to why people say brawl has a higher mental demand when you are allowed to make anywhere between 7 - 15 mistakes per stock before you run the risk of losing it whereas in other fighters you can make 1 - 3 before you die.

Well for me at least, the game has become one of rapidly predicting manuevers.
You have to continually analyze and try to guess your opponent, while factoring in other effects such as momentum, etc.

Now this is not so say that every other fighting game in the planet isn't about this... its just as you said, in other games you pay more dearly.... while in this you can make more mistakes.

In the end though, you enter these rapid exchanges of predictions MUCH MORE then you did in melee, seeing as the stakes were much higher and grave in melee. This makes momentum and memory come in to play over a long term. That means more exchanges of rps. Thus yomi comes into many more times than in melee.

For those who are unfamiliar with 'Yomi' here's Sirlin's amazing article on it (Every person who plays anything competitively should read this):
http://www.sirlin.net/archive/yomi-layer-3-knowing-mind-of-the-opponent/


Thus, mental deepness.

 

[KirbyKaze]

^ i still feel melee still demands mental awareness at least as much as brawl does, and gives more opportunity to screw with patterns or predictability due to the movement options available (that in turn contribute to your own patterns that you can take into consideration when plotting your mixups) but i really like that post and the way the information is presented.

 

[MetaKnight0]

I am not going to be surprised when the best players aren't specializing in technical skill, but rather mindreading skills.

Someone here must have once felt that they were getting their mind read when fighting. This only occurs in life in two ways: someone has incredible mindgames, or you just figured out that Bridget is not in fact a guy.

 

[Runawayfire]

^ Well in all honesty, I never said brawl was MORE mental...... they're both around equal but different,, (with melee even possibly being still slightly more) because melee had more of these: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/the-art-of-war/8-critical-points/
As for the movement point, overall there were more in melee, but brawl has a handfull of new ones which in turn kinda just shift things in a different direction.
(Kinda like if you took out certain peices in chess and replaced them with new ones that moved differently)


Oh yeah I might kick myself for this later ( seeing as how a lot of people could get a LOT better from reading Sirlin's book....) but everyone should read Sirlin's book.

Playing to Win: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/

 

[Percon]

For those who are unfamiliar with 'Yomi' here's Sirlin's amazing article on it (Every person who plays anything competitively should read this):
http://www.sirlin.net/archive/yomi-layer-3-knowing-mind-of-the-opponent/


Thus, mental deepness.

Hey, that was pretty insightful. I kind of had a general feeling of that whole yomi thing but it's nice to see put into words. Thanks for linking that.

 

[unknown522]

lol, not really addressing it to anyone, but I have nothing better to do atm so here it goes:

I played brawl @ school today (since the melee tourney was a huge flop there, and everyone wanted to play Brawl all of a sudden, then we got a melee disk and played on 1 of the 4 t.v.s), OMG, I experienced first-hand how easy it is for people to play brawl. We did a winner stays on thing and I was on for nearly and hour (lol only 7 matches [yes they took like 7 + mins/game]) until I got bored playing. also, every game I played with people, I won when I camped, w/ tlink and lucario. and lost a game because I got bored and approached w/ tlink. I also won games vs people by spamming up-smash with ike, lol. Still, I got so bored fighting to win, and could have fun approaching at all (except for lucario vs diddy, where I was losing when I approached, and got a HUGE lead off camping.

Still during, or after matches, the people I played were like "I miss melee" or "wow melee is so much better", and man, that made me laugh really hard. 21/25 people said "melee is so much faster, is more interesting, and has more depth).

 

[KirbyKaze]

so you're saying if i enter brawl singles i should be tink, yes?

 

[Kjdjy]

I still find it odd that I don't really feel like I've experienced what you guys describe when it comes to really long matches, camping etc. We have had occasional 6-7 minute matches of hit and run and projectile camping, but it mostly happens with BOTH people play in this fashion, usually at least one person is willing to make approaches and fight close quarters.

I'm not sure if it's maybe there's something of an unspoken agreement between us that we don't literally refuse to approach and camp for 7-8 minutes, or maybe we keep too tight to our opponents to let them do it or we can just get through it when it starts happening. I have come across some ultra-defensive players but I was able to punish and beat them without too much frustration, but again this could be because they werent genuinely smart and experienced players like Ryan. And when I fight the better, experienced players in my group and they play defensively (although not ULTRA campy defensive, like I said) the matches still wind up fairly short and close enough that my offensive style did just as well as their defensive style.

Ultimately of course, I can't really pass judgement until I play against someone who both employs this style deliberately and constantly, and is also really good at it but from what I've come across it hasn't seemed like as big a deal as everyone else makes it out to be.

 

[alphameric]

My problem with Melee is that it is at the point where there are only a handful of useful characters and each one of those only has a handful of used tactics. Variations of those tactics, yes, but in the grand scheme of things not so different that they are hard to predict.

In Brawl, things are spaced out a bit more which opens the game up to more possibilities and therefore requires players to keep tabs on everything in order to react in the most effective matter.

And like Steve said, we really haven't had problems with long running games. The only time stuff really goes long in when both players are on their last stock or something, OR if the camping party is new to the game etc..
For example, when we first started playing our games were long as hell because nobody would edgegaurd off the stage or anything. Nowadays things are much quick and players are getting more comfortable with the limits of their characters.

Also, when it comes to Dash-Dancing/Tripping, if it is supposed to be a 1/100 chance of tripping per every dashing frame.. I wouldn't be too concerned because you're just as likely to trip running across the stage to attack as you are Dash-Dancing in place.

PS: DASH DANCING LOOKS HILARIOUS

 

[unknown522]

so you're saying if i enter brawl singles i should be tink, yes?

if you want to....

steve: When I played and camped today, I was fight against a lot of MKs, Marths, and tlink dittos. For marth and MK, they kept trying to approach me, and I'd do really bad (more range and all) but whenever I ran away and threw crap at them, it was working realy well. They're pretty crapy melee players, but they knew their advanced techs, and knew what they were doing, but the gameplay seems too slow to be able to get past walls of projectiles, and they had a lot of trouble getting through w/o taking a good amount of damage in it.

Also, the punishment system is really bad: They make a bad move, and get hit/shield grabbed, but then there's no way to get a real follow up.........they take like 4 - 11 damage (unless you're ike....maybe), and you get to run away, and throw stuff at them again, or try to follow up and potentially take a hit yourself.

 

[Europhoria]

The point of camping isn't for random damage. It's to take control of the match and force the other person to approach and commit to something that you can react to and punish accordingly; the damage is a side bonus.

Sleepy Edit: I'm not sure why I posted this. Lol camping was the same in Melee it's just that in melee there was a punishment game at all. I agree with Gimpyfish that Brawl is going to evolve defensively more then offensively. And I find it surprising to see the person who most hyped Brawl leading up to it to suddenly not like Brawl (actually I don't considering he's spent time with the game and realized how it works >_>)

 

[unknown522]

lol, still, If I get 30 damage against marth, and get grabbed while camping, then I take like 5 damage, and they still take 30, or I get the hit first. Still yea, that's control, but It gets so boring. The one game where I only approached (lucario vs diddy), The match suddenly became close. Instead of consistent 2 or 3 stocks, that game was really close. Then there's the game I lost when I got bored and rambo'd marth halfway through, so I got 1 stocked. Lost the 2 stock lead, then went back to play melee, lol

 

[Kjdjy]

Yeah I see what you're saying actually.

I've been discussing it a little, and I kind of think now that this, at least somewhat plays into how Brawl seems like a game of counterpicks. Some characters are more or less designed to be campy or defensive, but other specific characters are (maybe, I guess?) designed in a way that can get around that particular way of playing.

Like Pit for example, obviously a very pro-camping character with fast, controllable projectiles. I was playing a while ago and one of my friends at the time played a very, very campy Pit and was winning lots of matches. I started picking Fox and by using his speed to close the gap or reflector, it made projectile camping pointless and I forced the game into an offensive battle and won. Or for contrast, I also used Falco to push back the arrow camping and punish with his throws which are one of the few that can be followed up for larger amounts of damage.

Someone also mentioned other forms of camping and defensive styles, using metaknight doing F-air then dodging back as an example, which in that particular example seems like something you could (maybe) get around with a larger-ranged character, like Ike which seemed to work for you (?) or going back to projectiles to keep them off balance until you can get in other attacks.

It isn't like camping or defensive play is new, thinking back to stuff like Needle Camping or general Jigglypuff playstyle in Melee, they were both very effective strategies but were defeatable once you found the right approach

As for your other point, there definately are follow-ups to some grabs and other potential punishes, but it is definately more rare and only certain characters can do it at certain percents, and eventually you're just hitting them away and can't do anything to immediately follow up, that's definately true. But if you know you're going to be playing against somewhere where that kind of followup is needed, then it becomes important to use a character that can do it. This, in my opinion adds to the idea that Brawl is more of a game of counterpicks than playing one or two specific characters.

As far as someone like Ike not being able to follow up, against a defensive player who will DI away, airdodge, shield etc to avoid it this is pretty much true, but (in principle at least, I know it doesnt always work like this in practice) he shouldn't really have follow ups, instead using his huge range and power to just land occasional hits and kill at lower percents. It's just part of the new heavy character style that comes with the lack of hitstun and L-cancelling. Faster characters can combo better because they can reach before hitstun wears off, and slower characters have to rely on defense and power, as well as DI reading and punishment

This is how I feel thinks SHOULD work, but as I've said previously I don't claim for sure that this is the truth because my experiences at the time are limited to my small crew and some other friends, but I still think this is how things may turn out in the future if I'm right and other people come to this kind of realization.


Edit: To Mike -
Seeing Gimpyfish act like that and being dissapointed in Brawl after all he's put into making it sound good was really dissapointing to me, and admittedly made me consider in some ways that maybe he's right, because he's certainly tested the game in more ways than I have. I definately feel bad that he seemingly has decided to throw in the towel about Brawl's competitiveness, he was probably the best-spoken person who encouraged the future of the game.

 

[KirbyKaze]

My problem with Melee is that it is at the point where there are only a handful of useful characters and each one of those only has a handful of used tactics. Variations of those tactics, yes, but in the grand scheme of things not so different that they are hard to predict.

I disagree with that part in so many ways. There are so many ways of playing characters in Melee. Until you get to the low tiers, just about everyone can be played with at least some variation and with the higher mid tiers and top tiers you have incredible flexibility with your style.

Even with an extremely constricted character like Jigglypuff you have some radical variation. King and Mang0 are nothing alike. King despises doing anything less than 8 hits in a combo whereas Mang0 just makes sure he can land the Rest somewhere and then goes back to dancing around the stage. King likes overkill, Mang0 likes to sleep.

With the complex characters, the differences are even more apparent. Take Ice Climbers, for instance. Wobbles and Chu have absolutely different styles. It's like watching night and day. They're opposites down to their very throw combos. Chu has very underdeveloped throw combos. He grabs, hits you with a smash or whatever, then chases you with a combo. He spaces well, has incredible waveland fakeouts, randomly desynchs them to continue a combo, and lands smashes for his kills (or a grab). Wobbles is so different. His strong points are his numerous desynch tricks (tricks that Chu doesn't employ) that throw his opponent off-guard, his absurd throw combos (not just wobbling; he'll grab, throw you, regrab with the other climber, follow the grab and that often means a third grab in a row, and THEN he does a smash or whatever and often regrabs from that depending on what he tells Nana to do) and his general... randomness.

Falcos as a whole are sort of strange. You have people who use glaringly different styles and make them work really well. Forward's Falco is nothing like, say, Dope's. Similarly, Dope is nothing like DaShizWiz.

Even DKs are different. Bum is much different than PKMvodka. Bum has random habits with DownB when he predicts rolls and does a lot of strange improvisation with sideB and downB and u-tilt during combos, whereas PKM's combos aren't nearly as random (more u-air, more b-air, more grab, less random downB), but in exchange does more throw --> giant punches (no, really, i'm serious; he tosses you off the stage, reads your mind, and hits you during your recovery).

KoreanDJ's Sheik (really aggressive) isn't really comparable to M2K's (camping), and neither is Drephen's (grab, dash attack, down-smash). Obviously with every character there is going to be a traditional style, something that's tried and true, something that works. But that's not the only way to play every character and there are enough non-traditional styles out there, winning and placing well, that really show this.

If you don't see variation in characters then that's fine. But it's overwhelmingly there.

 

[Deleted member]

Don't misinterpret what I'm saying btw... Brawl is competitive, and would be even if the game was much worse. regardless of ALL OF THIS anti-competitive attitude BY THE CREATOR HIMSELF brawl IS competitive, but it sure isn't the
same as melee.

If you were
to look at these games on a gameplay standard only, looking only at
game physics and options, not at graphics or number of characters or
anything like that, you'd assume that the order of release was smash 64, brawl,
and then the last game to come out was melee.


I don't know why I made this topic, I just found this stuff interesting... getting a sort of look into the mind of sakurai at least in part. I thought others might find this interesting too.

so just discuss, that's what this is for, I'm not saying brawl isn't good and that sakurai is a big dumb dumb, I'm saying that melee was never supposed to be a competitive game, so there should really be no surprise that brawl hasn't been catered specially for the competitive players...

Mike, he states that he doesn't think Brawl sucks. He's just reflecting on it.

He seems really all over the place. Give it a week and I think we'll see a new thread with more thought out ideas.

 

[Grmo]

Another factor is a game’s ability to hold together at high levels of play. Many games degenerate when played at high levels of skill, and many other games only appear to degenerate but actually don’t. If you choose a mature game such as chess, you can be assured of some real gameplay at high levels, but newer games are a gamble. This may seem like a minor issue now, but whether a game breaks down as you increase in skill is, in fact, a major issue. I would even say that most serious players of most games will reach a point where they feel that their game breaks down and no longer requires any real strategy. Often, this is when they have discovered some powerful tactic that seems to have no real counter, thus removing any strategic thought from the game. I would also go so far as to say that most of the time, the player will be wrong and there will exist either counters to the tactic or far better tactics, and that the game does indeed have more depth left to it. Sometimes though, there is no more depth and the player is right. Unfortunately, this looks suspiciously like the case where the player is wrong. It will take some wisdom to know whether you should continue with a degenerate game in order to discover its further depth or whether to abandon it in favor of a better game.

This seems very key presently. Our discussions are based on how powerful that one seemingly supreme tactic is. In this case, camping. I believe Sirlin has made an excellent point.

 

[alphameric]

thats exactly what i have been saying for the past week, but sure dont take my word for it, take 'sirlins'

 

[Pointman Rob]

well actually, you've only been arguing the one side of the coin (there exist counters/better tactics) sirlin also states that it could be the opposite, that the tactic (camping in this case) could very well be the be all and end all. hopefully such is not the case, but i don't have much reason to believe otherwise yet. so far my best bet is to just let my waddle dees soak up all the projectiles.

 

[alphameric]

Unfortunately, this looks suspiciously like the case where the player is wrong.

Um... That line (summing up his thoughts), is saying that camping is not the be all end all tactic.

 

[Grmo]

Not necessarily. The conclusion is what wraps up his thoughts, and it's this:

"It will take some wisdom to know whether you should continue with a degenerate game in order to discover its further depth or whether to abandon it in favor of a better game."

Don't be so sulky. I'm much more willing to take David Sirlin's word for it because his arguments are much better than yours are. You've been only arguing for Brawl, whereas he's neutral. Anyway you've made it clear that you think I'm stupid (with your complaining about how I clearly don't understand anything you're saying) so you probably won't take this post very seriously at all.

 

[KirbyKaze]

our teams finals took an hour and a half for 9 matches.

brawl isn't slow my ass.

in fairness though my friendlies were done in good time.

then again nobody hardcore camps in friendlies (except ambrose).

 

[Deleted member]

you guys realize we've had much much longer tournaments than that, right?

plus.. nate and i weren't there

 

[KirbyKaze]

you guys realize we've had much much longer tournaments than that, right?

plus.. nate and i weren't there

unless you two have undergone dramatic alterations in your playing style, i don't see what difference it would make. both of you were hyper-conservative and ridiculously defensive when you were winning -____-

and that was just for grand finals. an hour and a half for grand finals. each game took between 6 and 7.5 minutes on three stocks. that's ridiculous.

 

[alphameric]

you obviously weren't camping enough.

 

[KirbyKaze]

you obviously weren't camping enough.

you're free to not camp in brawl if you think it's a stupid strategy, but you reserve no right to complain about how you're getting ***** by it.

 

[Grmo]

edit: ^ hahahahaha

lol actually I haven't seen Jake play, but Nate's playing is anything but campy. It's all out aggro, and he was ******. So it gives me hope; a camp-free Brawl would be pretty awesome.

 

[Deleted member]

really, david? In retrospect I always thought my aggression towards your sheik in our matches always cost me the match.

then again, i have no idea how i play, i just play. sometimes i think people think too much.

but from what i remember, i really don't think i was that campy. are you sure?

 

[TyrantWolf]

Man, the best part of the tournament was when Ryan was screaming in agony after they had to play the 2nd set LOL. So funny omg.