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this is a peanut butter

Drolian

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 13, 2006
Messages
357
Location
KITCHEN STADIUM!
IMHO, Brawl doubles is completely different from brawl singles.

The videos on getyourtournament for the team finals were pretty entertaining and short with decent team combos and stuff (lol liek 6 rests on brinstar).

Iunno if you guys like..team camp or whatever. >_>
 

TyrantWolf

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Messages
1,640
Location
Lavender Town
Hahaha you have Ambrose, the camp champ LOL. And Julian who fights I guess. But I agree with you Jeff, even Melee was like that. You can't have a Sheik needle camping on the left part of FD or shino stall while the Peach is fighting 2 foxes (lol peach can fight?). Doubles usually is always less campy, but when you have 2 camping partners... mann. I don't know if that's possible since I havn't seen much of it. But man would that be hidious.


Like 2 Sheiks shino stalling.. LOL.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
really, david? In retrospect I always thought my aggression towards your sheik in our matches always cost me the match.

then again, i have no idea how i play, i just play. sometimes i think people think too much.

but from what i remember, i really don't think i was that campy. are you sure?
i think peach has to attack sheik because sheik's defensive options and camping game is superior to peaches. needles > turnips. i've discussed with this with vwins after our peach games (i actually won one yeahyuz -.-) and he says sheik is hardest when sheik plays defensively because peach can't win the attrition war like that.

i think i started beating your peach around the time i started camping like a bitch.
 

Europhoria

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
1,476
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Hmm... So your tournament is going to be on the 5th then. I can't have a bi-weekly on the 12th since i've already made plans for that day. C3 is the 19th, which leaves me for the following weekend.

Yes, I've decided yesterday that I will be hosting Melee bi-weeklies instead of Brawl bi-weeklies.

I'm sure many people will agree with me that brawl is a dumb game.. I'm not good at lengthy posts, so someone should support me and write something about it since I know MANY people already agree with me.

When I play at brawl tournaments, it isn't the same as in Melee tournaments. I see so many people get soo frusterated at this game because of all the dumb things that happen such as tripping. When I look into peoples faces as they play, they constantly shake their heads. After I play a match with someone, they don't even bother to shake my hand firmly saying "good game", and instead just look away. This game is not fun. It's more of a stressor, and bound to break into people and blow their fuse at some point.

With that said, I hope everyone is looking forward to my next bi-weekly because I personally will be bringing back melee into the NoVa scene.

There will be a Super Smash Brothers: Melee Bi-Weekly on April 26th.
I love this man.
 

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
Location
Toronto, Ontario
wow @ the 2 above posts.

anyways, for brawl teams at the bi-weekly, we didn't really camp until it became 1 v 1. Usually if it was me vs ambrose, then we had a long *** camp fest. In one of the games in the grand finals, we were camping on battlefield lucario vs pikachu, and I threw a fully charged aura sphere across the stage, and ambrose tripped and got hit by it. Lol
 

rx-007

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
81
Location
Toronto, ON
lol the way i see it, if Ambrose was dashing and he tripped and got hit by the aura ball, he would've dashed into it anyway if he didn't trip
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
6,454
Location
Corneria, Lylat System
What the **** is wrong with the boards. It keeps changing parts of our posts.

When I type mike, it shows "dwight eisenhower".

When I type time, it shows "Coin".

And Ryan's post showed a sentence as reading "Mewtwo2 vs. Ikue Ootani". Wtf??? Also...when I tried to type technical FOX up there...it appeared as Wolf. Is anyone else having the same problem?
 

Switchblade

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 16, 2006
Messages
488
Location
right behind you o_o
smashboards idea of an apil fools joke?

ive noticed they did the same when it comes to melee and brawl

k hold on im tesing this:

melee came out 7 years ago
and
brawl came out 7 weeks ago

yea my theory is right i think its an april fools day joke, they switch the words melee and brawl along with wolf and kitty, i wonder what othe words they did =/
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
6,454
Location
Corneria, Lylat System
Ya so, heres my quandary:

The game is fun, no lie...but it is really gay.

No seperation from Pros-Nubs. Do you know how bad a Meta outprioritizes like...everyone? Or how people can stand on one side of a stage with Falco and Pit and spam to win? Its ridiculous in this game. You can't fight spam.

All Meta has to do is block ANYTHING, then drop his shield and dsmash. Even Azn couldn't beat some scrub Meta in a tourny, and he's the king of "thinking" or whatever.

Just enter a tourny and you'll see. PRacticing means nothing, because some gay noob will come out of nowhere and use only 2 aerials and a chain-throw to beat you. Then we'll see how much thinking is required to win at this stupid, stupid game.

I do like playing it though. Its just REALLY ****ING GAY.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
this is mostly a reply to jake's post in some thread where he remarks that bernie probably dislikes brawl for using fox in melee because brawl takes more "strategy" and "thinking" opposed to "lololol u-smash".

i'll be honest. i think it takes strategy, but the thinking portion is grossly exaggerated.

brawl doesn't require much thinking if you play intelligently. this sounds strange, but there are systems that effectively shut down the vast majority of the casts' combo rock/paper/scissors systems. it works through a combination of di and buffering defensive options, though, so if you're not prepared to learn specific dis and listen to air-dodge theory and whatever else is in here then don't bother reading this because it's quite tl;dr.

okay. first this whole "yomi" crap and "combos are determined by thinking and reading" crap i keep hearing about.

yeah. it doesn't exist. it's a myth. in fact, the anti-combo system is extremely simple.

when you are hit by an attack, di as far away as possible (unless it's lethal range or near-lethal range in which case survival di; the "SMASH DI NOW" frames when the game freezes to process knockback and allow smash di makes this very, very easy to differentiate). then, when you are done with hitstun, look for the first strip of land (or platform), fast fall and/or drift towards it, and air-dodge if they come after you. effectively, this shuts down any sort of juggle they could do for two reasons.

1) the air-dodge is ridiculously fast and has less "blind spots" this time around

self-explanatory. if they attack you directly, your air-dodge will eat it. naturally the counter to this is to come after and wait out the defensive option but this is negated by the fact that...

2) air-dodge is lagless

having no lag means it's retardedly hard to punish. buffering shield or sidestep = ftw. buffering roll = ftw. you can basically buffer a defensive option and it will work AS SOON AS your air-dodge is done, with like a 1 frame intermission. 1 frame for a chance at follow-through is a very, very small window.

this effectively wrecks combos by basically everyone who relies on the air to juggle with the exception of characters with rapid aerial attacks and amazing aerial mobility. so basically metaknight's fair, sideB, and b. and pit sort of. beyond that this system is virtually flawless. i do not jest. making air-dodge invincibility longer allows many break-outs with proper di and drift abuse.

this in turns shuts out the yomi argument because of the lagless landing; hence the need for the proper use of drift and fast fall. offensively, you can know where the opponent is going at all times after you hit them, but it often does no good if they abuse this system. invincibility into shield/roll is absurd (we needed air-grabbing and faster aerial movement dammit). lagless defenses are not cool.

obviously you can put them in a situation where they can't fast fall and land lagless invincibility but that's awkward and most characters do not have that ability to set it up. so even if you do argue that certain characters can do that, then how is this game balanced at all? if only a handful of characters with situational counters to easily-mastered defensive outs are capable of "pressuring" (brawl pressure is a joke) then how can the ones who can't be usable? food for thought.

now, ground combos are trickier. but generally mashing air-dodge (or shield, depending on the nature of the knockback) is effective for those and kill everything what with no lag and whatever.

here's something cool. did you know that you can actually buffer shield during fox's dair and powershield any follow-through he does into whatever you want? well, now you do. and it's so easy. whenever fox comes in for the drillshine or dair --> u-tilt/u-smash, just hold L/R. the shield should pop up just as the shine/u-smash/u-tilt hits, which effectively shutss him out. this is supposed to perfect shield. from there, shield cancel and punish with whatever your character can do from shield-cancel. and obviously if you want to play it safe and they're good and expect you to perfect shield the shine/tilt/smash and instead "mindgame" and go for grab, you can forgo the shield-cancel altogether and roll away. and the roll works no matter what they do, because there's too much lag after the drill for their grab to beat your roll.

i have never since been comboed by fox's dair. i know people are supposedly praising his dair u-tilt/smash combos as his savior but none of them work.

and this is rapidly becoming apparent with a lot of other characters. lucas can't chain anything together that isn't pk thunder in a circle (circle beats air-dodge but if they do an attack this is nullified so this rps hasn't entirely been destroyed) after launcher (usually tilt or uair) basically. rob can't combo anything, his "combos" at the moment are basically repeated pokes from fair or a tilt that are highly escapable. it's becoming very, very clear that the only character where you can't just rely on spacing with PURELY is snake and the crappy characters; in the case of the former, he actually requires some genuine thought because of his awkward (yet unbelievably powerful) moveset. as for the crap characters, they tend to rely on tricks as a whole. this is nothing new.

any sort of combo that was previously decided by guessing actions seems to be becoming obsolete because there's an answer somewhere between shield, air-dodge, and the lagless nature of both. grab is NOT a suitable follow-through because only two characters (dedede and ic) can do anything with grab, if what efex messaged me for is true at all.

apparently falco's cg is escapable with light characters at low percents if you forgo di and footstool jump off him when he comes in for the grab. supposedly this worked with kirby. m2k says marth can up+b out at certain percents (higher ones probably; 30ish up maybe). with the more-generic weights and physics, falco is most likely not cging many characters past 40.

this basically leaves dedede and ics as the sole characters who can do ANYTHING with a grab. sonic can tech chase for like 14% sure but honestly sonic is so unbelievably bad it doesn't even matter. oh no, a character with a garbage moveset has one move that deals more than 10% (with a chance of hitting). how horrible. oh well. i guess we can't just exploit the fact that sonic is kill ********. and has no range. or priority. or damage source. and really is just a fast ****** who can do d-throw tech chase.

so. with the insane ease of escapability, how anyone can argue brawl requires deep mental thought is beyond me. i have read sirlin, but in his articles he deals with rps dynamics when he talks about yomi. what do you do, i ask, when there's a surefire escape? what would compel you to not use it? once you learn the escapes (or begin to get general common sense on escapes) the rock/paper/scissors model that people flaunt as adding game depth begins to vanish very, very quickly. obviously some combos are cemented in stone, like ike's jab, or marth's dancing blade, but these combos for the most part are pre-programmed. what is there to discover from the creative spectrum if nothing but the bare basics work? what use is there worrying about what your follow-through is when the game more or less TELLS you to do nothing (or retreat via roll) by its own nature (tripping and no hitstun). why on earth is there this belief that more thinking is demanded when your mobility options for the most part (assuming not everyone plays pikachu) are your basics and basics only, your moveset is exactly how it is laid out, and that you can never be punished severely for anything but in turn cannot punish them back*?

* the exception is the ics infinite
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
way too long, didn't read, i dont care to read, sorry david

like truly i do apologize, but like.. i get that you think brawl is broken in terms of whatever

but i think melee is more broken in other ways and i find brawl a lot more fun, so im wliling to put up with potential stupidity in brawl because i put up with a hell of a lot worse in melee and that's fact

therefore

lets just stick to our own games and just both be happy

i think that works best

but ya im just not in the mood to read a wall of text
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
6,454
Location
Corneria, Lylat System
this is mostly a reply to jake's post in some thread where he remarks that bernie probably dislikes brawl for using fox in melee because brawl takes more "strategy" and "thinking" opposed to "lololol u-smash".

i'll be honest. i think it takes strategy, but the thinking portion is grossly exaggerated.

brawl doesn't require much thinking if you play intelligently. this sounds strange, but there are systems that effectively shut down the vast majority of the casts' combo rock/paper/scissors systems. it works through a combination of di and buffering defensive options, though, so if you're not prepared to learn specific dis and listen to air-dodge theory and whatever else is in here then don't bother reading this because it's quite tl;dr.

okay. first this whole "yomi" crap and "combos are determined by thinking and reading" crap i keep hearing about.

yeah. it doesn't exist. it's a myth. in fact, the anti-combo system is extremely simple.

when you are hit by an attack, di as far away as possible (unless it's lethal range or near-lethal range in which case survival di; the "SMASH DI NOW" frames when the game freezes to process knockback and allow smash di makes this very, very easy to differentiate). then, when you are done with hitstun, look for the first strip of land (or platform), fast fall and/or drift towards it, and air-dodge if they come after you. effectively, this shuts down any sort of juggle they could do for two reasons.

1) the air-dodge is ridiculously fast and has less "blind spots" this time around

self-explanatory. if they attack you directly, your air-dodge will eat it. naturally the counter to this is to come after and wait out the defensive option but this is negated by the fact that...

2) air-dodge is lagless

having no lag means it's retardedly hard to punish. buffering shield or sidestep = ftw. buffering roll = ftw. you can basically buffer a defensive option and it will work AS SOON AS your air-dodge is done, with like a 1 frame intermission. 1 frame for a chance at follow-through is a very, very small window.

this effectively wrecks combos by basically everyone who relies on the air to juggle with the exception of characters with rapid aerial attacks and amazing aerial mobility. so basically metaknight's fair, sideB, and b. and pit sort of. beyond that this system is virtually flawless. i do not jest. making air-dodge invincibility longer allows many break-outs with proper di and drift abuse.

this in turns shuts out the yomi argument because of the lagless landing; hence the need for the proper use of drift and fast fall. offensively, you can know where the opponent is going at all times after you hit them, but it often does no good if they abuse this system. invincibility into shield/roll is absurd (we needed air-grabbing and faster aerial movement dammit). lagless defenses are not cool.

obviously you can put them in a situation where they can't fast fall and land lagless invincibility but that's awkward and most characters do not have that ability to set it up. so even if you do argue that certain characters can do that, then how is this game balanced at all? if only a handful of characters with situational counters to easily-mastered defensive outs are capable of "pressuring" (brawl pressure is a joke) then how can the ones who can't be usable? food for thought.

now, ground combos are trickier. but generally mashing air-dodge (or shield, depending on the nature of the knockback) is effective for those and kill everything what with no lag and whatever.

here's something cool. did you know that you can actually buffer shield during fox's dair and powershield any follow-through he does into whatever you want? well, now you do. and it's so easy. whenever fox comes in for the drillshine or dair --> u-tilt/u-smash, just hold L/R. the shield should pop up just as the shine/u-smash/u-tilt hits, which effectively shutss him out. this is supposed to perfect shield. from there, shield cancel and punish with whatever your character can do from shield-cancel. and obviously if you want to play it safe and they're good and expect you to perfect shield the shine/tilt/smash and instead "mindgame" and go for grab, you can forgo the shield-cancel altogether and roll away. and the roll works no matter what they do, because there's too much lag after the drill for their grab to beat your roll.

i have never since been comboed by fox's dair. i know people are supposedly praising his dair u-tilt/smash combos as his savior but none of them work.

and this is rapidly becoming apparent with a lot of other characters. lucas can't chain anything together that isn't pk thunder in a circle (circle beats air-dodge but if they do an attack this is nullified so this rps hasn't entirely been destroyed) after launcher (usually tilt or uair) basically. rob can't combo anything, his "combos" at the moment are basically repeated pokes from fair or a tilt that are highly escapable. it's becoming very, very clear that the only character where you can't just rely on spacing with PURELY is snake and the crappy characters; in the case of the former, he actually requires some genuine thought because of his awkward (yet unbelievably powerful) moveset. as for the crap characters, they tend to rely on tricks as a whole. this is nothing new.

any sort of combo that was previously decided by guessing actions seems to be becoming obsolete because there's an answer somewhere between shield, air-dodge, and the lagless nature of both. grab is NOT a suitable follow-through because only two characters (dedede and ic) can do anything with grab, if what efex messaged me for is true at all.

apparently falco's cg is escapable with light characters at low percents if you forgo di and footstool jump off him when he comes in for the grab. supposedly this worked with kirby. m2k says marth can up+b out at certain percents (higher ones probably; 30ish up maybe). with the more-generic weights and physics, falco is most likely not cging many characters past 40.

this basically leaves dedede and ics as the sole characters who can do ANYTHING with a grab. sonic can tech chase for like 14% sure but honestly sonic is so unbelievably bad it doesn't even matter. oh no, a character with a garbage moveset has one move that deals more than 10% (with a chance of hitting). how horrible. oh well. i guess we can't just exploit the fact that sonic is kill ********. and has no range. or priority. or damage source. and really is just a fast ****** who can do d-throw tech chase.

so. with the insane ease of escapability, how anyone can argue brawl requires deep mental thought is beyond me. i have read sirlin, but in his articles he deals with rps dynamics when he talks about yomi. what do you do, i ask, when there's a surefire escape? what would compel you to not use it? once you learn the escapes (or begin to get general common sense on escapes) the rock/paper/scissors model that people flaunt as adding game depth begins to vanish very, very quickly. obviously some combos are cemented in stone, like ike's jab, or marth's dancing blade, but these combos for the most part are pre-programmed. what is there to discover from the creative spectrum if nothing but the bare basics work? what use is there worrying about what your follow-through is when the game more or less TELLS you to do nothing (or retreat via roll) by its own nature (tripping and no hitstun). why on earth is there this belief that more thinking is demanded when your mobility options for the most part (assuming not everyone plays pikachu) are your basics and basics only, your moveset is exactly how it is laid out, and that you can never be punished severely for anything but in turn cannot punish them back*?

* the exception is the ics infinite

Holy ****. That is SO GAY.

The whole defensive buffering is retarrrrrrrrded.

My god.
 

Ambrose

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Messages
242
Location
Toronto, Ontario
wow @ the 2 above posts.

anyways, for brawl teams at the bi-weekly, we didn't really camp until it became 1 v 1. Usually if it was me vs ambrose, then we had a long *** camp fest. In one of the games in the grand finals, we were camping on battlefield lucario vs pikachu, and I threw a fully charged aura sphere across the stage, and ambrose tripped and got hit by it. Lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoM9ok4P1w4

lol, ryan when u said that, it reminded me of this match we had ages ago.
Good old camping. Pills vs ice blocks lol.
 

Runawayfire

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
1,649
Location
Toronto
David just two things:

Metaknight legitimately combos, hell he even has a ground combo style that didn't even exist in melee.

Aaaaand Lucas can combo at low percentages from certain moves..... also his goal is more to get a spacial advantage after landing a hit then go for the definite combo.

Anyways, I challenge some of you who think you know the facts about this game to win Grmo's tournament via use of these tactics. Camping is unstoppable? prove it. Metaknight is unstoppable? prove it. (Omg wait a sec, deosn't Metaknight not have a projectile to camp with!? But wait i thought camping was unstoppable!?)
If you take a step back and think about what you'd say if you heard people complain about melee the same way you guys are doing now..... You'd think they were pretty scrubtacular no?
 

Europhoria

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
1,476
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Nate stop being ********. You're challenging people who are posting that Brawl is boring and stupid to extensively play Brawl. That would be like us challenging you to get better at Melee.
 

Grmo

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 16, 2006
Messages
2,128
Location
Plymouth Rock, eating Thanksgiving dinner
It sounds like Metaknight can combo. Therefore yes, he is a legitimate character. Lucas and Olimar can sort of combo as well. 3 out of 39 characters can combo then...it's nothing that really saves the game from the fact that most characters are rendered illegitimate by Metaknight and Pit.

Anyway, on to something else: why I think Brawl is not a step up from Melee.

Note: these are the big things in the game. I know tons of other tricks in brawl have been discovered, but there are just as many for melee so there's no point lengthening this list just for that.

no tripping
no sheild dash cancel
no reverse aerial rush (including edge attack)
wavedashing
dashdancing
dash cancelling
jump cancelling
waveland tricks
l cancelling
SHFLLing
fastfalling that's useful
more mobility
more fluency
more speed
HITSTUN
MORE COMBOS
MORE MINDGAMES (as a result of speed; speedy gameplay makes prediction harder and since there are more options, there are more ways to trick people)

Now, let those be compressed and represented by the array variable M, for melee. Let brawl be B in the equation, which we will use to represent the attributes of the game:
B = -(M) (note that the "more"s above become "less"s)
This is the easiest and simplest way I can point out the raw difference between the two games. Now, we can see that by performing the transformation in the equation, we see that the previous 3 negative values become positive, whereas 14 attributes from melee are rendered negative. While mathematically, they should just become 0 and not a negative value, for all intents and purposes they are nonexistent because a negative value is still not practically applicable in a game. So, let's recap:

for brawl, we gain:
tripping
sheild dash cancel
reverse aerial rush (including midair/edge attack)

we lose:
wavedashing
dashdancing
dash cancelling
jump cancelling
waveland tricks
l cancelling
SHFLLing
fastfalling that's useful
greater mobility
greater fluency
greater speed
hitstun
combos
mindgames (inadvertently taken away with lack of speed)

Moreover, the risk of tripping negates the use of any ground tricks, such as pivoting (which we had in both, but is now easier).

Now seriously, tripping sucks, so we may as well count that as a negative for "stepping up" from melee to brawl. But wait, it isn't really stepping up is it? Doesn't this seem way too much like a "step down"? Why is a game with less stuff in it being widely accepted as a better competative game?

The keyword is competative actually. Brawl has much more stuff, including one of the most enjoyable soundtracks of any game ever. It's got a stage builder, better items, more characters, more stages, subspace emissary, and TONS of other awesome stuff. I could go on at length as to why it is an excellent party/novelty game. Probably one of my top ten favourite games ever. But party settings are not viable in a tournament.

For random, skill-less fun: Brawl > Melee

For competition, we require a deep game that has lots of options open to us at any moment. See the above list, and can we now draw a conclusion on which one has more options available to us? Yes of course. With more options comes gameplay with more variation. Not to mention more speed. With more to do there comes a deeper metagame. This I believe to be an unarguable fact. So in conclusion, for competition:

Melee > Brawl

So why is everyone playing brawl seriously? It's in no way superior. I've just proved that logically, in the most simple and objective manner I possibly could. The fact remains that yes, even though brawl is VERY competative at the moment (and only because people want it to be), there is a better game to be played.

PS. Jake, if your attitude is "let's just play our own games and not bother eachother" then you don't need to be reading anything in this thread. It exists for the sole purpose of letting people talk over their differences, which you don't want to do.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
David just two things:

Metaknight legitimately combos, hell he even has a ground combo style that didn't even exist in melee.

Aaaaand Lucas can combo at low percentages from certain moves..... also his goal is more to get a spacial advantage after landing a hit then go for the definite combo.

Anyways, I challenge some of you who think you know the facts about this game to win Grmo's tournament via use of these tactics. Camping is unstoppable? prove it. Metaknight is unstoppable? prove it. (Omg wait a sec, deosn't Metaknight not have a projectile to camp with!? But wait i thought camping was unstoppable!?)
If you take a step back and think about what you'd say if you heard people complain about melee the same way you guys are doing now..... You'd think they were pretty scrubtacular no?
me said:
this effectively wrecks combos by basically everyone who relies on the air to juggle with the exception of characters with rapid aerial attacks and amazing aerial mobility. so basically metaknight's fair, sideB, and b.
also i'm aware that his d-tilt "trip" style combos and other lulz are workable, but the issue isn't with meta. i think meta's actually one of the best characters, because he seems to be the only one with non-preprogrammed combos that work. my issue is with everyone else, who seems limited to u-tilt --> tilt/fast smash for combos barring extremely botched di.

metaknight, on that note, is one of the only characters who can break shield-canceling because of his multi-hit stuff, so he can actually attack with a lot of stuff with impunity. meta is very, very good at attacking and possibly the only character who actually CAN rambo in this game.

lucas can combo until about 30. beyond that his follow-through on everything seems to be some sort of projectile special to form a "projectile" juggle or whatever, but the problem with relying on his projectiles for combos is the trajectory of pk freeze, and the other two - with proper timing - can be eaten by basic attacks. moreover there's a greater variety of reflecting moves this time around, that often nullifies his attempts to follow-through, along with the usual air-dodge. having said that, yeah, lucas can combo it's just very difficult and awkward after his low percents.

as for your challenge, i'd be happy to play you and express my views, i don't see why this needs to become nasty.

honestly, i'm not as anti-brawl as i make myself out to be, i was actually playing a lot of brawl friendlies at matt's house yesterday. but i don't think the game is really as skill intensive or demanding as melee, and it bothers me greatly when people make it seem like this game is some sort of epic mental battle when i really don't see it. i don't see how it can be an epic mental battle when the characters with non-preprogrammed combos are limited to maybe 5.

maybe i've missed out on something. anyone care to enlighten me?
 

rx-007

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
81
Location
Toronto, ON
for those who say that melee is better, i agree with everything except that it takes more thinking, i think we need to play brawl at least half as long as melee to be able to make any kind of conclusions about how mentally demanding the game is

also has anybody noticed that the windows for punishment in brawl are a lot smaller than melee? doesnt that mean more timing is required to punish an attack
 

KirbyKaze

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for those who say that melee is better, i agree with everything except that it takes more thinking, i think we need to play brawl at least half as long as melee to be able to make any kind of conclusions about how mentally demanding the game is

also has anybody noticed that the windows for punishment in brawl are a lot smaller than melee? doesnt that mean more timing is required to punish an attack
well, i think the point i'm trying to make is that most of the time there isn't even a window if the opponent is any good at all.
 

Grmo

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no lol, punishing is easy. it's just that punishing in brawl is more like grabbing them then watching them fly. then maybe you can pressure them with an aerial to make them get out of your face. try doing something out of any sort of punishing grab or attack if you're not metaknight? ha! not gonna happen.

note: hitstun would make me play this game.

edit: yeah, it's true that we don't know everything about the game yet, while it's also true that we might still have to learn other things. is that going to make it as deep and complex as melee? think about it.

no combos
no universal speed
no real mindgames (because of it being slow, everything is predictable)

and you know what the biggest thing is? tournament matches. i've played one tournament match ever that i enjoyed in brawl. it was with MDK, and that match had everyone on the edge of their seats. we laughed at the end, said good game and shook hands, just like we did in melee. i thought, "hey, this game's gonna be fun", but no, i was wrong. every match since, except for one with Jeffman that had an awesome ending, has ended with the worst "meh" atmosphere ever. people don't really look at eachother, don't shake hands or feel compelled to say good game, or really anything.

we're losing so much, people. if (to anyone) you havent already, go back to the last page and read my post, 3rd from the bottom.
 
D

Deleted member

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Brawl isn't an epic mental battle, you are right David

But Melee wasn't an epic tech skill battle...Fox wasn't truly that hard to get good with

People say he was

This is how it goes down

"Fox is really good"

"Ya but DO YOU KNOW HOW HARD IT IS TO GET GOOD WITH HIM"

"Not that hard?"

"Nah man he's tough to learn"

It's just muscle memory.

Like I said, Brawl has stupid things in it, let's be clear on that

That being said, Melee had ******** stuff in it too, and I think Melees cons greatly outweigh Brawls which is why I play Brawl

My real guess as to why there's a small group of you guys still clinging to Melee is:

It's because you've only just gotten like really good in the recent past. I've been good at melee for a long time, i'm basically a vet, i'm moving on. I can totally understand that you don't want to give up your skill at melee for another game.

My only suggestion is to try to learn brawl while keeping your melee skills up, as it's quite possible melee won't take the top spot.
 

Runawayfire

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David I actually dont want to turn things nasty at all, thats really not my intentions.
And I wouldn't be negative if you came out and really did win it. Thats the kind of friendly competition I'm trying to breed.

Really though, this thread lost its use a little while back, the arguements are refreshing over themselves... and its not doing any of us any good. Unfortunately a lot the melee supporters just can't stop throwing the first stones all the time.... and it ignites these discussions over and over again. Both sides are suffering from this **** for no good reason anymore.
 
D

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^ agreed.

I almost want to start warning or reporting posts that brawl or melee bash.

Can't we just learn to get along?

Remember when we owned quebec at starfurry

where'd that go huh
 

Europhoria

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Fox wasn't that hard to get good with? Then why didn't you play Fox if he was so broken and easy to learn.

Just throwing that out there of course...
 
D

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because unlike the majority of tier whores I actually enjoyed peach as a character before I knew she was broken
 

Grmo

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There doesn't seem to be much to learn. I was all for Brawl at first. I wasn't really that good at it ever, but I'm clinging to Melee because my experiences with Brawl have made me dislike it.

You know what though, Melee's cons, or ******** stuff that happens to you in matches, are not really cons because you can do them back to people. In Brawl it's all about like, Metaknight, Pit, Falco, etc. Anyone who can either dominate (really play, which is only metaknight), or camp, makes the rest of the cast inviable save for that small group.

Yeah, it's true that Fox is muscle memory. He's way harder than anything in Brawl.

Even if Melee's cons outweigh Brawls (which I don't even think is true but whatever), it's pros also greatly outweigh Brawl's. I would back this up here but I already did on page 7. So really, if you're right about Melee's cons outweighing Brawl's, and I'm right about Melee's pros outweighing Brawls (since they don't really contradict eachother), then Brawl is just simpler. The greater amount of options in Melee allowed for creativity. Imagine taking creativity and thinking away from real life. It would make things simpler, yes, far simpler, but better? Is that really true?

EDIT: Jake you're right actually, about this thread. Although I think this seems like pretty healthy discussion, not bashing or flaming or anything. People seem to be being respectful, for the most part. Which is good.

lol Starfurry. That was a golden moment.

I think Melee players are throwing the first stones because we feel like Melee should be the game being played, and we're trying to convince the Brawl players to come back, or something. Losing Melee players to Brawl hurts the Melee community. We want them back. I think that's why.
 
D

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I think you're confusing me for Ryan, he's the one that would proclaim "LUCK" in the middle of a battle.

Umm..in fact, I really don't remember complaining about fox. I dealt with him just fine, because I was a smarter player than the fox players for a good amount of time.


Grmo:

Only Fox and Falco in melee could use tech skill to the point where it became creative. I'ms orry, but every character can wavedash, and it essentially became another move that everyone could do.

That's why when you say Brawl loses creativity, you're crazy, because only a very small minority in melee could use tech skill to be creative. I'm slightly exaggerating, but you don't need tech skill in melee to be good at it.
 

Europhoria

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Umm not really. As far as I've seen you've *****ed about Shine Spikes and Tippers and lots of crap as being "lucky". And if by smarter then you mean... The GTA spacies miss l-cancels and waveshines so your downsmash spam which fails vs. technical players works, then sure! Smarter it is.
 

Runawayfire

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^ This is an example of why things have been going in circles.... Mike just can't stop getting on Jake's case about anything he can try to think up..... hell he seems to enjoy it so much sometimes I think he's jacking off as he does it.
 
D

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open your eyes then. If I complained at all, it was either very little or just to egg someone on the boards.

Oh wait! I did that to you!

So that's why you're posting about the most ridiculous point, knowing fully well that I posted that I'm sick of hearing "____ is better than _____"

i dunno why you enjoy instigating. it's fun for maybe when you first join the boards.

Adnan manages to be pretty technical and creative with Peach.

maybe so, but my peach was still a lot better than his. saying peach requires tech skill is ********.

therefore, if adnan was creative, he was creative because he was creative, not because his fingers went fast. That's what brawl is like.
 
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