this is a peanut butter

[Grmo]

ok seriously let's just let this thread die

 

[Percon]

*runs away*

But, um, play what you want, really.

Even though Brawl's pretty campy at the moment hopefully with enough play people will be able to overcome that.

I'll admit I camp quite a bit, but I go back and forth between offensive and defensive. Also, Niko and Pyrnight, who have mostly offensive playstyles, beat semi-frequently.

But I could be wrong about this whole thing. I'll see for sure when I play you guys.

And even if Brawl is campy, I still find it mostly fun. Dunno why.

 

[Grmo]

It's fun because it's smash I guess. I'm hoping for camping to be annihilated as well. Either that or for us to go back to Melee. The reason I made this thread is more for those who like to be sort of aggressive about things, which we'll certainly see a lot of.

 

[Kjdjy]

Not a bad idea Grmo, thanks for at least trying to keep this stuff out of the other threads at last, especially your tournament thread.

My thoughts at the moment are that camping IS a prevailing strategy at the moment, but that's part of the evolution of the metagame. Camping has always been a usable strategy, even in Melee today it's an important part of some characters. Right now for Brawl, its just the absolute easiest thing to do with the least amount of effort that provides the best results. Camping will always be a part of the game but like Melee, over time people will find ways to counter it with better offensive techniques.

Hopefully, anyways. It's silly for anyone to claim "This is how the metagame will develop in the future, for sure don't even try to argue with me"

As far as personal preference I prefer Brawl for the time being and am working with Ken to find ways to get our characters around camping. If Brawl never evolves competitively beyond camping then so be it, I'll give it up and just stick to playing it for fun but I don't feel like I can go back to Melee in any case.

 

[Grmo]

^ The GTA thread was getting bad as well. Anyway yeah. The only person I've seen NOT camp and win during a match was Nate, but he plays Metaknight so I'm not sure it can be transferred to other characters.

PS. Howcome you can't go back to Melee?

 

[Europhoria]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WFp4kozlOU
Beefy

 

[Crooked Crow]

i spam bombs like a *****, i'm not gonna lie
melee felt so much more fun when i played it after
brawl's okay, but i don't feel like wasting money on it in tournaments because i suck at that stupid game lol

 

[Runawayfire]

Steve actually has the right idea, camping is the most effective strat in the metagame RIGHT NOW.

I can't believe that some of the people here who can't fathom the idea that metagames change are Pokemon players....
I mean look at the advance generation before Tyranaboah came out, STALLFEST.
But once Boah started running rampant, EVERYTHING changed.

The same thing happened with a bunch of other fighters, Cvs2 is a great example.
Also Mvc2 was completely different before you saw people start going insane with Magneto.

Now, I for one know that certain characters at this point can blow through camp strategies. Are you going to say that this small handfull of characters are going to be the ONLY group who can approach ever? That nobody is going to continue to develop strats for characters?

We haven't even had a real tournament yet and people think they know exactly whats going to happen. Take a step back from yourself and realize that predictions aren't god.

It really shows me how little some of you guys truly understand about fighting games, although it makes sense seeing as this is the first one that most of you people have played in tournaments.

 

[Kjdjy]

I dont feel like I can go back to Melee (at the moment anyways) because I just got sick of Melee and I still feel the same way, that's all. Maybe in the future if Brawl fizzles completely I can get back into it but at the moment I just dont see it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I have a very strong feeling that Brawl's evolution will occur backwards. In most games I'm under the impression that combos become more refined and lethal as a game develops, but I think Brawl is going to be the opposite purely because nothing can follow-through purely because there is no hitstun, a double jump readily available most of the time, and multiple air-dodges that don't leave much lag at all (if any) if you hit the ground during it.

I'm sure for many at the moment Brawl is filled with combos and that's fine. But as we discover how everything is escapable by air-dodge, Brawl's combos will become less and less damaging until the built-in strings are the only guaranteed things.

Obviously people will use their imagination to improvise and try to read air-dodges and "tech chase" in the air, but none of it is guaranteed. Say what you will, but barring a glitch that teleports your body into their hitbox range as a cancel, no exploit will save this game from its own lack of hitstun.

 

[MetaKnight0]

So... instead of 100% guaranteed high damage punishes from the highest echelons of Melee characters or 100% no-brain setups like Nair-shine or or Laser-Laser-Laser-Laser or Forward Tilt-Forward Air that will **** every character that is not some form of top tier or Taj-driven robot, we might have to think about our offense!

Lemme describe a few matchups in Melee
Fox v Marth
Don't get grabbed/shined
Falco v Fox
Just combo
Falco v Marth
Don't get grabbed/shine
Sheik v anyone
Down Smash/Forward Tilt/Forward Air
Ice Climbers v anyone
Grab and win, don't and lose
Peach v anyone
Turnips/DownSmash/FC

That's like 1/2 the matchups right there. Show me a Marth player who doesn't just grab all day against space animals and I'll show you a Marth player that needs to grab all day against space animals. The offensive game in Melee was braindead easy.

Brawl is going to take a lot of thought to get a good offensive game steamrolling. That's and thumbs up from me.

 

[Unexplanetory]

I only play campy vs Snake players, and thats because Snake owns the stage :/. Ive also never lost to a camper yet, I guess im playing the wrong people.

 

[homsar]

IMO, Brawl will be just as competitive as melee ever was. It will just be a different kind of competition.

In melee it was all about technical speed and the faster you were the more chance you had of winning. Of course reading your opponnent was important but it was still a test of speed in the end. As for brawl, since it is so much less technical I find that it is now a test of ones wits. I find that I'm thinking much more then i did in melee as I don't just auto react anymore, and thats my preference.

Of course this could change, and in fact it already is. Advanced techs are starting to seep out already, such as Squirtles Shellshifting and Hydroplanning (I think thats what its called). Another example is Pikachus QAC (Quick Attack Cancel) which has sped up his ability to chase opponents and string moves. I mean, once my opponent was on the other side of FD and I QAC'd over to them and daired them then jumped into a nair which put me into a position to edge guard.

Itll just take time to develop a more deap experience. Well, at least I hope it gets developed.

 

[Drolian]

I only play campy vs Snake players, and thats because Snake owns the stage :/. Ive also never lost to a camper yet, I guess im playing the wrong people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvyuvstABB0

 

[Grmo]

homsar: "In melee it was all about technical speed and the faster you were the more chance you had of winning."

not really. You know just as well as I do that speed gets ***** by smart playing.

 

[MetaKnight0]

homsar: "In melee it was all about technical speed and the faster you were the more chance you had of winning."

not really. You know just as well as I do that speed gets ***** by smart playing.

I think he is more referring to technical combo ability.

And all the smart playing in the world isn't going to save Mewtwo from his 18-2 matchup against Falcon. Falcon can dashdance like he does against every character and ****ing destroy Mewtwo no matter what insanity he tries. Shadowball spam? grab punish into knee. Anything else? brb dashdance.

My hope is that Brawl, with the easy out of combos and relatively light punishes, will become less of a "I **** you for free" and more of a "I **** you in certain tactical situations". I'd rather that when you take off a stock, it was because of a lot of hard work, not because you landed a lucky grab and then do an auto instinct combo that does 70% and annihilates them.

 

[homsar]

not really. You know just as well as I do that speed gets ***** by smart playing.

Smart playing in melee required (for the most part, not always) speed. If I could win by quickly getting behind after you ****ed up a combo you it wouldnt make sense to roll to get behind you now would it? No it wouldn't, Id want to be faster and use a wavedash.

In melee Mindgames and smart playing for the most part relied on quick reaction times knowing what advanced tech to do. You just couldn't develop the best mindgames if you hadn't already mastered advanced techs.

EDIT: MetaKnight0 has it. I just am **** at explaining stuff. Bottom tier at it you could say.

 

[Grmo]

lol. yeah it's true. I'm just thinking about those people who win by liek...not moving. but yeah, you're right. it's funny because that was my argument for why smart playing would be harder for brawl (lack of speed I mean), and I just basically contradicted myself lol.

 

[homsar]

lol. yeah it's true. I'm just thinking about those people who win by liek...not moving. but yeah, you're right. it's funny because that was my argument for why smart playing would be harder for brawl (lack of speed I mean), and I just basically contradicted myself lol.

Lol, happens to everyone. Anyways, neither argument for or against brawl is strong enough to stand any ground yet. To early to know everything so arguments are so biased right now.

 

[Drolian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPcYZO0vUc0 WTF!!
6950.9 Meters = 22804.79 Feet!

 

[alphameric]

Brawl really is not that slow. The difference lies in fast falling and that is about it.
The game was designed so that you can't constantly do the same strategy to win which means you have to actually.. yknow.. think about what move to do next. So instead of spamming pillars and waveshining without risk of punishment (aside from ****ing up), you now have to think of what youre doing, what your opponent is doing and what you and he are going to do next.

As I said in the other thread, no camping is impenetrable. Snake can only camp so long as he has the ability to plant mines. Keep the pressure on him and he won't have that much ease (and its not really hard to avoid the ****). Characters like Peach are easier to combat this time around since projectiles are so bloody easy to catch. The rest aren't really cause for concern since they are all so light that they die in a couple hits anyways.

The problem is that Melee diehards are seeing camping as the means to an end. It's not, there is always a counter, and counter-camping isn't it.

Melee = old and busted
Brawl = new hotness

 

[MetaKnight0]

Brawl actually has great pseudo-meter management **** what with the damage prorate system.

I'm torn as to whether use MetaKnight's Nair as a kill move or damage move.

 

[Grmo]

alphameric: Melee = old and still hot. Even if it wasn't, it's irrelevant.

MK0: Why not both?

 

[JeffMan]

alphameric (referring to your tourney thread post): since when can't Olimar's Pikmin be reflected? For example, I was playing Wolf today against Olimar, and his reflector works just fine. Even Lucas' jabs reflect Pikmin. I don't know about the other characters since I don't own the game and can't test them, but Olimar isn't that much of a camping threat. Just make some space and find a way to deflect his Pikmin until he's forced to approach.

 

[MetaKnight0]

alphameric: Melee = old and still hot. Even if it wasn't, it's irrelevant.

MK0: Why not both?

Even using it a few times makes it much much harder to kill with it.

It's difficult because Neutral Air is mad utility. Trying to optimize it's kill potential and yet keep the threat of it being there is very difficult X_X

 

[MetaKnight0]

alphameric (referring to your tourney thread post): since when can't Olimar's Pikmin be reflected? For example, I was playing Wolf today against Olimar, and his reflector works just fine. Even Lucas' jabs reflect Pikmin. I don't know about the other characters since I don't own the game and can't test them, but Olimar isn't that much of a camping threat. Just make some space and find a way to deflect his Pikmin until he's forced to approach.

Problem is he isn't really forced to approach. Him tossing the pikmin is also a way for him to get his best pikmin (which I really don't know what they are but when he gets them he's mad hurt). Camping is less about doing actual damage then it is taking space up well and being annoying while getting an advantage yourself. i.e. Falco laser camping in Melee.

 

[JeffMan]

Good point, but even if he gets the Pikmin he wants, he can't use it until it's close combat time, at which point it's your job regardless to beat it. Falco's laser camping is a tad different because it can't be blocked forever -- unless you're Fox/Falco and can reflect it, or you're mad insane at powershielding -- since your shield will eventually break; and also because Falco can move around much easier while spamming lasers since he can land-cancel them. Against Olimar, there should be more ways to deflect the Pikmin indefinitely (ie., Wolf's reflector, Lucas' jabs, probably more), and he's less agile than Falco. You're right about the overview of the point of camping, but I'm just saying it's a little less effective for Olimar than what alphameric is claiming it to be.

 

[Europhoria]

Brawl really is not that slow. The difference lies in fast falling and that is about it.
The game was designed so that you can't constantly do the same strategy to win which means you have to actually.. yknow.. think about what move to do next. So instead of spamming pillars and waveshining without risk of punishment (aside from ****ing up), you now have to think of what youre doing, what your opponent is doing and what you and he are going to do next.

As I said in the other thread, no camping is impenetrable. Snake can only camp so long as he has the ability to plant mines. Keep the pressure on him and he won't have that much ease (and its not really hard to avoid the ****). Characters like Peach are easier to combat this time around since projectiles are so bloody easy to catch. The rest aren't really cause for concern since they are all so light that they die in a couple hits anyways.

The problem is that Melee diehards are seeing camping as the means to an end. It's not, there is always a counter, and counter-camping isn't it.

Melee = old and busted
Brawl = new hotness

Yeah you have to know what you're talking about... or do you just suck?
Because perfectly pillaring and breaking shields is just THAT easy right? No one ever had to think about what to next, or what there opponent was doing...? Camping isn't effective right? Take those concepts and argue them with some of the high level players, see what they tell you.

BTW David recalls him 3 stocking you with Kirby several times; I'm sorry for mistakenly remembering them as 4 stocks. It was fun laughing about epic matches today lol.

 

[alphameric]

I Wasn't referring to reflecting, i mean in terms of catching or absorbing projectiles INSTEAD of destroying them.

And as a matter of fact, david and I only have played 1 full game where he was Kirby and that was at seasons. Since then we have STARTED a game and then ended it for a tourney match.

Another thing, why does everyone keep referring to the 'pros' when it comes to Brawl? They aren't Brawl pros. Sure some concepts are transferable, but that doesn't make them the end all be all verdict on all things smash.

You are skirting around the point as usual. Camping is not the 100% undefeatable way to play brawl, and the sooner you accept that, the sooner you will start playing the game instead of pitching tents.

So Mike, do yourself a favor and stick to your sword because that seems to be all you really know.

 

[Miller]

Hey, Alpha, Stop arguing with people better then you, they will always win.

 

[Grmo]

alphameric: Dude. Stop with the lame analogies. And stop with your lame insults directed at Mike. I've got a list on the first post you know. Anyway back on topic. pikmin aren't normal projectiles since they stick to you and go through your sheild. also rofl reflecting them is fun because they attack olimar.

 

[Europhoria]

Moron... I meant go consult the Melee pros with your concept of Melee. See how much they agree with you.
I remember David beating up your Ganon at the bi-weeklies with Kirby.

I'm not sure what point you think I'm skirting around >_> You can say what you will about camping being ineffective or whatever but so far everyone who has won a Brawl tournament has done so by playing defensive, ultra conservative and campy. It seems very unbeatable when done right. If you're beating any campers Adrian it's probably because they're worse then you are (sad as that is).

 

[alphameric]

Wow, check the other thread, not only did GRMO ask me why i dont play melee (which i answered and everyone else chimed in), MIKE has the first personal attack, so dont make me look like the bad guy here.

My point about Olimar is that you have to do something that can potentially expose you, be it roll/attack or whatever. With the others you can catch, absorb etc..

And no, i have never played Davids Kirby as Ganon. Ever. Period.
IC's? yes
Sheik? yes
Kirby? no

Sidenote: Who the fuck is this Miller wise-ass?

 

[Grmo]

Don't fuck with Miller, bitch. You just made yourself the bad guy via disrespect. Watch what you say eh?

 

[Europhoria]

I remember watching you do those matches, and David seems to remember playing them...
Everything you say that you like about Brawl you do so by contrasting it to something from Melee. But then you go on to say they're different games and can't be compared; lovely.
You only ever post to be a whiny ***** about how you think Melee is gay. You lose to everyone and instead of looking at your own playing (where you went wrong and getting better yourself) you just call the game gay so you can feel good about yourself... Well, if you expect me to deal with your whining be prepared to be ridiculed for being a *****.

 

[alphameric]

Hey, Alpha, Stop arguing with people better then you, they will always win.

Don't **** with Miller, *****. You just made yourself the bad guy via disrespect. Watch what you say eh?

Cause jumping into someone else's discussion and insulting a person at random is respectful right?

I sincerely hope you are kidding


@Mike
I don't post to whine. I post to make a point.
And I don't recall ever saying you can't compare Brawl to Melee. Get your facts straight; all of them. Brawl plays differently than Melee, but they both retain similarities. Lay off the attacks on me (for whatever reason you felt inclined to start them), Comprende?

 

[Grmo]

lol kidding about what? Who jumped into the discussion and insulted someone? If you mean Miller, he didn't insult anyone. Your "who the **** is this noob" post was disrespectful. mine certainly wasn't and Miller's wasn't an insult. If you mean I jumped in, that was even less of an insult, so I don't really know what you're talking about.

 

[alphameric]

I think you've got everything backwards Grmo.
He (randomly) called my a noob, followed be me calling him a wise-*** when asking who he was.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM FCUKING TYPING?
or is everything in this forum hopeless

 

[Grmo]

No, he didn't call you a noob. He just said that you're arguing with people who are better than you. There will always be people who are better than you; it doesn't mean you're a noob. And you did more than call him a wiseass while asking who he was. You said "who the **** is this miller wiseass", which is really disrespectful.

Um, yes, I understand perfectly well what you're typing. Stop being so condescending.

 

[MetaKnight0]

Good point, but even if he gets the Pikmin he wants, he can't use it until it's close combat time, at which point it's your job regardless to beat it. Falco's laser camping is a tad different because it can't be blocked forever -- unless you're Fox/Falco and can reflect it, or you're mad insane at powershielding -- since your shield will eventually break; and also because Falco can move around much easier while spamming lasers since he can land-cancel them. Against Olimar, there should be more ways to deflect the Pikmin indefinitely (ie., Wolf's reflector, Lucas' jabs, probably more), and he's less agile than Falco. You're right about the overview of the point of camping, but I'm just saying it's a little less effective for Olimar than what alphameric is claiming it to be.

I think it's pretty effective. Olimar with proper Pikmin is beast at close range. Since it goes through shields, it forces the opponent to move rather than absorb the hit. It's not nearly as effective as Falco's laser camping but it has pretty nice damage potential for camping and it feeds Olimar the pikmin he needs. Also some Pikmin are actually painful tossed (I think the fatass?)

And a lot of people are really good at powershielding Falco's lasers, but that isn't a bother for a properly spaced Falco. Personally, I can pshield lasers about 50% of the time, and I've done 100% in some matches before. Usually you're in the air anyways to avoid the lasers.