Zoning > Spacing
>>" Spacing - Making sure your attacks are at their maximum effective distance.
----- Zoning - Making sure you have more available options at any given moment than your opponent. If you can reach them and they cannot reach you, that is a perfect zone. Your goal is to stay within these zones.
Theres your difference, you can technically do both. And for Marth, with the lack of a projectile, his best zone is perfect spacing on his longest ranged moves."<< -SUSA
Example of Zoning's Uses:
When playing Ike you want tipper range but that's not only because it's for tippers but because it's INSIDE HIS FAIR RANGE where he can't just space you out. If you can't get within his Fair range, you can just walk up and shield it to slowly drive him away from the middle of the stage into eventually a dead end next to the ledge. From there he can't do retreating fairs, and he has lost the option.
You should not get too close to Ike, for he has not only the speed (frame 3 jab beats your frame 4 side-B), but he also has a higher reward than you if his jab lands (jab->jab->**** the hell out of whatever you do).
The distances at which your opponent has less strong options than you are to be maintained , The rest avoided.
In considering the distances, include in your mind (to be perfect) frame data involved, range involved, and risk/reward based on possible followups & situations. This is a lot to consider, but basically if the opponent has a quicker option that will beat yours in a range, don't be there. If an opponent has a stronger setup move than you do at a certain range, watch out for it.
Where your opponent is on the stage determines how many options he has position-wise.
If he has like two feet of stage he's in trouble unless you let him behind you
- Walking up to the "zone" you want to maintain relative to an opponent
Sound like a "too slow" method? Perhaps. But when you walk you can Shield, Tilt, Turn Around and Back Away
Now say you dashed to that position BECAUSE YOU GOT NO TIME TO LOSE. Well, you lost all those options. Instead, you can sulk "BS" as your dash attack is a too committed, laggy attack, or because your dash animation didn't allow you to shield/powershield.
- There's such a thing as foxtrotting. And there's pivots that can be made while foxtrotting with Marth
So I just said dashing is stupid because you can't shield. Well...it's faster than walking, and if your opponent is aerial and defenseless, you want to be as on top of your reaction speed as possible in following that meal (Nothing tastier than a Snake in the air). Tapping the movement stick once will foxtrot. Doing a foxtrot, then tapping forward&back quickly (think foxtrot into a dashdance) will allow you to pivot while still foxtrotting Couple these movement abilities and you have yourself in a standing position under your opponent's anticipated landing spot.
Shorthop Game > Fair game
- Empty Hop to provide yourself the option to fair, not to necessarily fair. - Pierce7d
Once in a while you may just land and grab/sideB the opponent, and once in a while you may hop over to the behind of the opponent and work from there. Overall, you want to focus on being able to fair in case the opponent attempts to hit you out of the air, and on pressuring the opponent to provoke a response you can punish.
- Nair > fair for aerial opponents
Reasons: Better followups, makes airdodging less safe, reaches farther horizontally
- Nair > Fair for opponents with heads that may be shieldpoked (for obvious reasons)
- First hit Nair combos into Tilts/Smashes
Try it out!, but it's the least important point on this post and you cancel the 2nd hit by landing
-Tippered Nair is an amazing kill move
If you don't utilize it your kill moves will be far more predictable. Combine this with the fact that it can shieldpoke and....at higher percents when opponents shield too much...
- Fairing a lot, as well as ANY OTHER REPETITIVE BEHAVIOR is just asking to be punished
If an opponent rolls behind you when you fair, or gets under you and punishes, you are screwed, and it's your fault.
Timing is IMPORTANT
- Just like you wouldn't want to attack an opponent at where he was 2 minutes ago, you don't want to attack where he was 2 seconds ago .
Nor where he will be if he's not there yet. Seems simple, but frustrated players do it a lot.
- Airdodges in occur when either
1) the opponent likes to airdodge at a certain height off the ground (many people think like "Hey I'll airdodge here and DI there)
2) the opponent feels in danger (usually by your proximity)
*Therefore, bait the airdodge (by just being next to them in the air) before you attack, don't just attack when they can airdodge past you and take the stage
*Note: Do not bait the airdodge unsafely (MK has a Dair...you can't just stay in that hitbox and expect an airdodge)
- Fight in the PRESENT - don't do what would have worked in a previous situation when it's over, and don't mull over things, whatever happens, just take note, don't take strife
- Laugh at Noobs - OUT LOUD (but seriously, don't actually because they're people too)
Many people attack or defend with exactly the same timing every time (attack..wait..attack..wait or OH-NO-spotdodge....retaliate or hold-shield........sulk....keep-holding-shield)
Those are nervous habits or "I don't know what to do reactions". **** them, as hard as possible. They're present even (much less often though) at high level play.
- Buffering mash inputs will allow you to grab break earlier (Ice Climbers!), and Buffering SDI will allow you to survive things like anticipated spikes (SDI into wall and tech or land on stage)
Punishes need to be capitalized on and avoided
- Landing close to an opponent puts you in a position where you are LOSING and will get grabbed/hit if they're decent.
Try a retreating fair once in a while! It is safer on shield. It is probably the safest landing. It is a C-C-COMBO BREAKER on most followups (*Note: Metaknight's Dthrow)
- Airdodging in on a good opponent means being baited into a BIGGER **** than you would have succumbed to if you didn't airdodge
- There's buffering (performing an action, then buttoning commands for another action in the ending of it to move as fast as possible)
If you're not doing it in a situation where the opponent is doing it...you're probably BEHIND. This is why pros don't just stand around and react to things, yet win because they are capable of watching their opponents' individual styles.
- Getting up from the ledge in a certain way needs a REASON other than "felt like that one was safest"
Example1: Using normal get up invincibility frames to get through an attack that was thrown out and punish the opponent
Example2: Rolling from ledge because the opponent expects a normal get up and wants to punish it specifically
Example3: Jumping from ledge because the opponent is FAR AWAY AND YOU WOULD NEVER JUMP FROM LEDGE IF THE OPPONENT COULD SIMPLY STAND THERE AND BE BENEATH MARTH WHICH MEANS DEATH FROM BELOW
(*Note: Marth has terrible options for dealing with opponents below him)
Using your Shield for Offense
- Walking shield is one of the strongest options for approach
Moving in slowly can deceive an opponent into thinking he can batter your shield some more, allowing you to sneak in a punish on the next whiff. Dashes compromise your ability to shield.
- Up-B is the safest out of shield option because the startup has invincibility
The most common knowledge in Marth's metagame, but only a starting point for OoS options.
- Full Hop D-air out of shield is a great GTFO move that may tipper on opponents behind you
- Shorthopped U-air out of shield can be done by tilting the control stick up and jumping then pressing A
This is one of the best moves for followups in juggling the opponent.
- Upsmash out of shield works great on moves that put the opponent near you and lagged
It suffices as a vertical kill move or at least a startup for combos. It's far better than the other option OoS as a kill move (backwards Up-B).
- Shield-Dropping to a tilt or smash attack should never be overlooked as an option
Sure it's cool to do an out of shield move, but if you can upsmash out of shield you probably can shieldrop to a dsmash.
- Power shields are also very important
Master the art of powershielding on purpose. And develop a habit for doing a strong damage racker or kill move when you powershield an opponent's attack.
when I play Marth it feels like the movement advantage I gain is off immediately moving and/or doing something on landing
Funny Techniques[/B
- Land facing backwards to an opponent, then craq-walk into him and punish if he moved toward you
Good Points Made by Posters:
"When I play Marth it feels like the movement advantage I gain is off immediately moving and/or doing something on landing" - JunK
It is important to learn buffering, especially things off of landing or turning around for Marth. Learn when is the earliest you can do a turn around grab or side-B when landing for instance. It'll save you a lot of trouble from opponents behind you.
That's all for now.
>> Thanks to Havok's blog, Junk's mentorship, MikeHaze's unorthodox techniques, Pierce7D's monster posts, Steel's threads, and Cen-Cal Smash for continuing to help me improve and realize these key aspects of play.
Marth isn't nearly as represented at top level play as he should be.
All thoughts and editing suggestions are welcome.
>>" Spacing - Making sure your attacks are at their maximum effective distance.
----- Zoning - Making sure you have more available options at any given moment than your opponent. If you can reach them and they cannot reach you, that is a perfect zone. Your goal is to stay within these zones.
Theres your difference, you can technically do both. And for Marth, with the lack of a projectile, his best zone is perfect spacing on his longest ranged moves."<< -SUSA
Example of Zoning's Uses:
When playing Ike you want tipper range but that's not only because it's for tippers but because it's INSIDE HIS FAIR RANGE where he can't just space you out. If you can't get within his Fair range, you can just walk up and shield it to slowly drive him away from the middle of the stage into eventually a dead end next to the ledge. From there he can't do retreating fairs, and he has lost the option.
You should not get too close to Ike, for he has not only the speed (frame 3 jab beats your frame 4 side-B), but he also has a higher reward than you if his jab lands (jab->jab->**** the hell out of whatever you do).
The distances at which your opponent has less strong options than you are to be maintained , The rest avoided.
In considering the distances, include in your mind (to be perfect) frame data involved, range involved, and risk/reward based on possible followups & situations. This is a lot to consider, but basically if the opponent has a quicker option that will beat yours in a range, don't be there. If an opponent has a stronger setup move than you do at a certain range, watch out for it.
Where your opponent is on the stage determines how many options he has position-wise.
If he has like two feet of stage he's in trouble unless you let him behind you
- Walking up to the "zone" you want to maintain relative to an opponent
Sound like a "too slow" method? Perhaps. But when you walk you can Shield, Tilt, Turn Around and Back Away
Now say you dashed to that position BECAUSE YOU GOT NO TIME TO LOSE. Well, you lost all those options. Instead, you can sulk "BS" as your dash attack is a too committed, laggy attack, or because your dash animation didn't allow you to shield/powershield.
- There's such a thing as foxtrotting. And there's pivots that can be made while foxtrotting with Marth
So I just said dashing is stupid because you can't shield. Well...it's faster than walking, and if your opponent is aerial and defenseless, you want to be as on top of your reaction speed as possible in following that meal (Nothing tastier than a Snake in the air). Tapping the movement stick once will foxtrot. Doing a foxtrot, then tapping forward&back quickly (think foxtrot into a dashdance) will allow you to pivot while still foxtrotting Couple these movement abilities and you have yourself in a standing position under your opponent's anticipated landing spot.
Shorthop Game > Fair game
- Empty Hop to provide yourself the option to fair, not to necessarily fair. - Pierce7d
Once in a while you may just land and grab/sideB the opponent, and once in a while you may hop over to the behind of the opponent and work from there. Overall, you want to focus on being able to fair in case the opponent attempts to hit you out of the air, and on pressuring the opponent to provoke a response you can punish.
- Nair > fair for aerial opponents
Reasons: Better followups, makes airdodging less safe, reaches farther horizontally
- Nair > Fair for opponents with heads that may be shieldpoked (for obvious reasons)
- First hit Nair combos into Tilts/Smashes
Try it out!, but it's the least important point on this post and you cancel the 2nd hit by landing
-Tippered Nair is an amazing kill move
If you don't utilize it your kill moves will be far more predictable. Combine this with the fact that it can shieldpoke and....at higher percents when opponents shield too much...
- Fairing a lot, as well as ANY OTHER REPETITIVE BEHAVIOR is just asking to be punished
If an opponent rolls behind you when you fair, or gets under you and punishes, you are screwed, and it's your fault.
Timing is IMPORTANT
- Just like you wouldn't want to attack an opponent at where he was 2 minutes ago, you don't want to attack where he was 2 seconds ago .
Nor where he will be if he's not there yet. Seems simple, but frustrated players do it a lot.
- Airdodges in occur when either
1) the opponent likes to airdodge at a certain height off the ground (many people think like "Hey I'll airdodge here and DI there)
2) the opponent feels in danger (usually by your proximity)
*Therefore, bait the airdodge (by just being next to them in the air) before you attack, don't just attack when they can airdodge past you and take the stage
*Note: Do not bait the airdodge unsafely (MK has a Dair...you can't just stay in that hitbox and expect an airdodge)
- Fight in the PRESENT - don't do what would have worked in a previous situation when it's over, and don't mull over things, whatever happens, just take note, don't take strife
- Laugh at Noobs - OUT LOUD (but seriously, don't actually because they're people too)
Many people attack or defend with exactly the same timing every time (attack..wait..attack..wait or OH-NO-spotdodge....retaliate or hold-shield........sulk....keep-holding-shield)
Those are nervous habits or "I don't know what to do reactions". **** them, as hard as possible. They're present even (much less often though) at high level play.
- Buffering mash inputs will allow you to grab break earlier (Ice Climbers!), and Buffering SDI will allow you to survive things like anticipated spikes (SDI into wall and tech or land on stage)
Punishes need to be capitalized on and avoided
- Landing close to an opponent puts you in a position where you are LOSING and will get grabbed/hit if they're decent.
Try a retreating fair once in a while! It is safer on shield. It is probably the safest landing. It is a C-C-COMBO BREAKER on most followups (*Note: Metaknight's Dthrow)
- Airdodging in on a good opponent means being baited into a BIGGER **** than you would have succumbed to if you didn't airdodge
- There's buffering (performing an action, then buttoning commands for another action in the ending of it to move as fast as possible)
If you're not doing it in a situation where the opponent is doing it...you're probably BEHIND. This is why pros don't just stand around and react to things, yet win because they are capable of watching their opponents' individual styles.
- Getting up from the ledge in a certain way needs a REASON other than "felt like that one was safest"
Example1: Using normal get up invincibility frames to get through an attack that was thrown out and punish the opponent
Example2: Rolling from ledge because the opponent expects a normal get up and wants to punish it specifically
Example3: Jumping from ledge because the opponent is FAR AWAY AND YOU WOULD NEVER JUMP FROM LEDGE IF THE OPPONENT COULD SIMPLY STAND THERE AND BE BENEATH MARTH WHICH MEANS DEATH FROM BELOW
(*Note: Marth has terrible options for dealing with opponents below him)
Using your Shield for Offense
- Walking shield is one of the strongest options for approach
Moving in slowly can deceive an opponent into thinking he can batter your shield some more, allowing you to sneak in a punish on the next whiff. Dashes compromise your ability to shield.
- Up-B is the safest out of shield option because the startup has invincibility
The most common knowledge in Marth's metagame, but only a starting point for OoS options.
- Full Hop D-air out of shield is a great GTFO move that may tipper on opponents behind you
- Shorthopped U-air out of shield can be done by tilting the control stick up and jumping then pressing A
This is one of the best moves for followups in juggling the opponent.
- Upsmash out of shield works great on moves that put the opponent near you and lagged
It suffices as a vertical kill move or at least a startup for combos. It's far better than the other option OoS as a kill move (backwards Up-B).
- Shield-Dropping to a tilt or smash attack should never be overlooked as an option
Sure it's cool to do an out of shield move, but if you can upsmash out of shield you probably can shieldrop to a dsmash.
- Power shields are also very important
Master the art of powershielding on purpose. And develop a habit for doing a strong damage racker or kill move when you powershield an opponent's attack.
when I play Marth it feels like the movement advantage I gain is off immediately moving and/or doing something on landing
Funny Techniques[/B
- Land facing backwards to an opponent, then craq-walk into him and punish if he moved toward you
Good Points Made by Posters:
"When I play Marth it feels like the movement advantage I gain is off immediately moving and/or doing something on landing" - JunK
It is important to learn buffering, especially things off of landing or turning around for Marth. Learn when is the earliest you can do a turn around grab or side-B when landing for instance. It'll save you a lot of trouble from opponents behind you.
That's all for now.
>> Thanks to Havok's blog, Junk's mentorship, MikeHaze's unorthodox techniques, Pierce7D's monster posts, Steel's threads, and Cen-Cal Smash for continuing to help me improve and realize these key aspects of play.
Marth isn't nearly as represented at top level play as he should be.
All thoughts and editing suggestions are welcome.
