Things we aren't doing versus MK.

[<π]

Well... I'm just gonna type this up real quick trying to spend as little time on smash as possible this week. Specifically in the MK match up.

A few things that are actually effective, or at least seem to be.

Full hop needle.
great at shutting down air camping before it starts.
good damage
blah.

Chain.
Again a good way to shut down some MK approaches. especially ground approaches. pretty safe on sheild. if you and MK are a chain away you can use this as one of your mix ups (your main ones being dash attack, dash grab, dashing in sheild, needles.)
I actually kind of stumbled into it trying to piviot needles when I was in dash attack range. chain came out be accident and I was able to hit MK out of a fair. pretty hip.

So to recap. Not chain camping. But using the chain more as a safe poking tool when people are already in range of the chain.

Ftilt.
ftilt is a poke versus a huge portion of the cast. but not against MK. ftilt and hist aerials just can't be beat so don't force it too. Try and combo into your tilt locks after your aerials

MK's Defensive Options
LOL thats funny because you have to be very careful about your jump in approaches. between nair OOS and upB in general. getting your attacks in will be very hard. You can bait junk but most of these are pretty safe espeacially if the MK is playing more defensively.

Our defensive options
Not worth much in thsi match up... you can uair MK OOS if he messes up his dair camping you can use your speed to force him to mess up his spacing on his last jump to get sheild grabs. Nair OOS is decent too.

 

[-Mars-]

Didn't try the chain much this past weekend so I really don't have any comments on that. I've now pretty much resigned myself to only getting a max of 4 ftilts before I use an ender against MK. Either i'm doing it wrong or it's not decayed enough or I don't know but MK's can break out of my ftilt lock.

What I do have down now is GR>DACUS, in fact come to think of it I didn't lose to a single MK player this weekend. Didn't play any spectacular ones but I think the MK MU might be my personal best matchup right now.

I noticed that most of MK's OoS options are punishable by Sheik so a lot of the times MK players get into this comfort zone that usually isn't bothered by other characters.

I don't get why you would use such a useless thing such as FH needles.....could you elaborate?

 

[<π]

sure

Fullhopped needles are lagless, that we all know.

most MKs will air camp and try to use plats to prevent you from really dealing any damage through needles for the larger portions of the game. using full hopped needles its completely safe against aerial MKs because of their very low horizontal movement speeds they can't really answer it at all.

Pretty much it lets you rack damage safely.

Against good MKs it is going to be very hard to get inside of their defenses between fair ftilt and well spaced dairs.

 

[Tristan_win]

Didn't try the chain much this past weekend so I really don't have any comments on that. I've now pretty much resigned myself to only getting a max of 4 ftilts before I use an ender against MK. Either i'm doing it wrong or it's not decayed enough or I don't know but MK's can break out of my ftilt lock.

What I do have down now is GR>DACUS, in fact come to think of it I didn't lose to a single MK player this weekend. Didn't play any spectacular ones but I think the MK MU might be my personal best matchup right now.

I noticed that most of MK's OoS options are punishable by Sheik so a lot of the times MK players get into this comfort zone that usually isn't bothered by other characters.

I don't get why you would use such a useless thing such as FH needles.....could you elaborate?

It's possible your not buffing correctly or starting at the right percent (25% and higher) if you really think it's your end messing up try starting the tilt lock at a later percent like 30% or 35% which will expand your room from error from 13-14 frames to 14-15 or 16-17 frames.

..By the way I'm adding the 10 frame of buffing sheik get's before her move end minus the ftilt speed and then adding 3 frames it takes for meta knight to air dodge which is his fastest useful option he has to the tilt lock.

Once again I'm not talking about frame advantage but room for error.

 

[ddonaldo]

ive never tried the FH needle tbh so I might try it out to see how it goes. I agree with the chain especially since MK likes to nado at that range as well so putting chain into the game really eliminates nado problems.

What i always fail to notice is that a good MK will never let me grab him by forcing it which frustrates me when going for the kill since MK at high % will never quite let you into grab range

 

[saviorslegacy]

If buffered correctly you can double jump out of a FH Needle cancel.
Which means you can do it again with no lag.

FH> buffered Needle's> double jump> buffered Needle's> land with no lag/Vanish buffer

 

[Zankoku]

If you threw needles already then you can only throw one needle the second time. Why you would want to toss a single double-jumped needle after an entire salvo is beyond me.

 

[choknater]

im going to try full hop needles

 

[Tristan_win]

...Yeah I'm having trouble seeing as well why you would want to throw another needle, however ever since I read your post I've added full hop needle storm edge guard into vanish to my mix up and so far I've landed it four times.

Always nice to have another option.

 

[saviorslegacy]

"Why would you throw another Needle?"
A: 2% and if the first bunch hit you aren't getting punished.

 

[Zankoku]

2% if the guy is stupid enough to stand there after getting shot up by 5 needles two seconds ago. If he just dashes forward in the time it takes for you to double jump and start throwing another needle, you're getting punished. I can see some sort of reasoning behind a mixup with the Vanish, but none whatsoever for jumping and throwing another needle.

 

[ddonaldo]

MKs really dont like rapid jab, instead of going into a grab after ftilt(s) im starting to opt for rapid jab vs MK

 

[Judo777]

MKs really dont like rapid jab, instead of going into a grab after ftilt(s) im starting to opt for rapid jab vs MK

I get dsmashed for rapid jabs against mk every single time.

 

[<π]

I always get dsmashed as well. even hitting mk off stage with rapid jabs will result in a punishment.

rapid jabs are good against like... snake, dk, slower characters without sword priority hit boxes.

 

[riocosta123]

Speaking of things I don't see enough, jab -> grab. A really good MK is hard to grab just using Sheik's ****ty throw range.

The jab -> jab -> down smash sometimes works (I think more so if MK is off the stage) because it's unexpected but I wouldn't abuse it because it's easy to DI her jabs.

 

[Zankoku]

lol, try to jab > grab any good MK and he'll dsmash you after your jab.

 

[<π]

jab is like ftilt the hit stun is based on percent.

unless you litearlly mean jab->grab instead of jab->short->grab then yeah. Thats why jabs can lead into kill moves true at higher percents. jab->short->nair is amazing because it allows you to connect with strong killing hit boxes even with MKs DI, though more often depending on where you are on the stage you'll want to go for the grab to try and get dacus from that.

there is never any reason to not do both jabs if the first has connected

 

[Judo777]

jab is like ftilt the hit stun is based on percent.

unless you litearlly mean jab->grab instead of jab->short->grab then yeah. Thats why jabs can lead into kill moves true at higher percents. jab->short->nair is amazing because it allows you to connect with strong killing hit boxes even with MKs DI, though more often depending on where you are on the stage you'll want to go for the grab to try and get dacus from that.

there is never any reason to not do both jabs if the first has connected

What is jab -> short i never saw where that was named. is it the second jab?

 

[choknater]

i tried full hop needles, its very legit and can beat plankers too

i realized i have to jump a lot and air dodge sometimes in this matchup

cuz even though sheik's ground game can match his speed (frame wise) he still has much more range and running speed. his walk up ftilt is better than ours LOL, heck its almost as good as snakes. but if u jump a lot, at least you can avoid him better, its just scary when hes below you and can uair, but whatever, it doesnt seem to bother me too much

lmao i played the otherd ay, i wasn't able to get even one GR dacus sigh

some days i am jsut terrible at dacus

 

[<π]

jab->short = jab->second jab


I call the second jab a short just so it is easier to differentiate between the two in my head.

 

[riocosta123]

Can someone test grab release - full needle storm - to dash attack when the grab release puts MK off the stage?

I pulled it off in a friendlies a few times but I don't know if my opponent was trying to attack as soon as possible. If that's a true combo then that's another grab release 25% damage we can put on him.

 

[Judo777]

i tried full hop needles, its very legit and can beat plankers too

i realized i have to jump a lot and air dodge sometimes in this matchup

cuz even though sheik's ground game can match his speed (frame wise) he still has much more range and running speed. his walk up ftilt is better than ours LOL, heck its almost as good as snakes. but if u jump a lot, at least you can avoid him better, its just scary when hes below you and can uair, but whatever, it doesnt seem to bother me too much

lmao i played the otherd ay, i wasn't able to get even one GR dacus sigh

some days i am jsut terrible at dacus

Im pretty sure we run faster than mk

 

[ddonaldo]

i dont know if everyone else isnt doing but it is almost always safe to DI as upwards as possible whenever hit offstage by MKs attacks since apart from shuttle loop all his KO attacks have horizontal trajectory and the earlier u DI the better. also the higher we are the easier it is to make it safely back on stage

 

[<π]

i dont know if everyone else isnt doing but it is almost always safe to DI as upwards as possible whenever hit offstage by MKs attacks since apart from shuttle loop all his KO attacks have horizontal trajectory and the earlier u DI the better. also the higher we are the easier it is to make it safely back on stage

Thats good to point out and is actually very true for sheik in general regardless of the match up since most characters only have horizontal knock back in the air.
Also because sheik is much more of a vertical character than a horizontal in terms of recovery. Recovering high just leaves you with more options and more time to stall for better oppertunities and MOST importantly an easier time taking advantage of the invincibility from vanish. forcing people off stage,avoiding moves when the opponent is and range while still being able to recover, etc. always recover high.

 

[-Mars-]

Things we aren't doing vs. MK: counterpicking MK.

 

[<π]

I suck as MK... everyone wants me to use him but........ man Mars that ava is distracting.

 

[Zankoku]

Grape soda is excellent.

 

[Eddie G]

Needs moar consistent grab release DACUS' in general.

 

[FrozenFire13]

Needs moar consistent grab release DACUS' in general.

I can honestly say that I'm confident in saying that 85 or more percent of my MK kills come from GR->DACUS. WOOTZ!

 

[Jas Shoken]

Wow a lot of this is really good material. Very nice!

I tend to go for chain pokes as a form of spacing and go for some full jump needles if he tries to aircamp me with fair/dair. Grab release to DACUS sweetspot at around 90% is also sexy and one of the advantages unique to our character in the MU. :3