Theory on yet unrevealed characters and the WiiU/Future Unannounced DLC Discussion

[Rajikaru]

I make this argument constantly.
They are both in fact, not only more "deserving" than Wolf or Lucas, but would unquestionably sell better.
The single weak point to them is that one cannot get in without the other.

I personally never enjoyed the way they play (I also didn't enjoy Charizard and don't play him in Sm4sh at all), but if their movesets were fleshed out a bit more I think they'd be welcome additions.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

I make this argument constantly.
They are both in fact, not only more "deserving" than Wolf or Lucas, but would unquestionably sell better.
The single weak point to them is that one cannot get in without the other.


You quite clearly miss the point, in that she would be from the Mario universe, which I generalized as 'Mushroom Kingdom' because of the symbol. Rosalina is not from it either.

Also greninja and mewtwo exist

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Deserving is seriously subjective, and it's very questionable they would sell better. Ivysaur is not extremely popular compred to Bulbasaur or Venusaur. It's the oddball and always was. A huge amount of Pokemon popularity is due to the Anime alone. Note how Bulbasaur and Venusaur show up the most in the Anime while Ivysaur gets a single episode appearance. There's a reason for that. The middle forms in the first Gen had very little love. Wartortle was the only one to somewhat stand out. It may help that it looked fairly unique compared to the other ones. Charmeleon is just a slightly bigger/longer dinosaur. Ivysaur is just the leaves opened up. Wartortle just suddenly has wings on its head. It doesn't make any sense at all. It stands out more. Also, Squirtle is severely more popular than Ivysaur. There's no reason to believe it's 'both or nothing" with them. Neither of those points hold any actual truth to it. Being a Pokemon does suggest it'd sell decently for paild DLC. Does not actually hold true just because they are Pokemon.

And no, Rosalina can't really be just considred some Princess. She either is called one in-game, or she isn't. Her "looks" don't matter. That was never relevant. She doesn't even fit the Mario series Princess archtype all that well. She doesn't get kidnapped from the first game. She has a full story again right away. She's a stand out.

 

[Rajikaru]

And no, Rosalina can't really be just considred some Princess. She either is called one in-game, or she isn't. Her "looks" don't matter. That was never relevant. She doesn't even fit the Mario series Princess archtype all that well. She doesn't get kidnapped from the first game. She has a full story again right away. She's a stand out.

"Rosalina is a character that debuted in Super Mario Galaxy, first appearing in the Gateway Galaxy. She serves as the adopted mother of the Lumas and commands the Comet Observatory. She is a princess as well as a very powerful figure, as her duty is to watch over and protect the cosmos as well as the Lumas."

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

"Rosalina is a character that debuted in Super Mario Galaxy, first appearing in the Gateway Galaxy. She serves as the adopted mother of the Lumas and commands the Comet Observatory. She is a princess as well as a very powerful figure, as her duty is to watch over and protect the cosmos as well as the Lumas."

You realize the mario wiki is a fan site

 

[Rajikaru]

You realize the mario wiki is a fan site

Super Mario Galaxy

• Bios
  • Instruction manual: "This keeper of the Comet Observatory floats through the cosmos with curious star creatures called Lumas. Her past is shrouded in mystery."
  • Guide: "Not much is known about Rosalina, the lonely princess who wanders the cosmos in the Comet Observatory, a giant starship that travels the celestial expanse. She is a great friend of the Luma, taking them in and caring for them as if they were her children. But there is a sadness behind her eyes. What has she lost out among the stars?"

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

You're welcome to find proof that they're wrong in calling her a princess, but it's enough of proof for me.

The wiki also says

It also says "Although Rosalina's design has not been changed since her debut, when she was originally being created for Super Mario Galaxy, her concept design was vastly different compared to what she looks like now. She was depicted with a beehive hairstyle along with straight-cut bangs. She had more unique facial features including the style of her eyes and mouth; the facial features she has now are more similar to Peach's. Her outfit was more similar to Peach and Daisy's, however, complimenting her now dropped trait as a princess. Instead of a crown, she wore a tiara, and her gloves were just like Peach's."

 

[pupNapoleon]

Also greninja and mewtwo exist

I... I don't know what your point is. Congratulations?

Deserving is seriously subjective, and it's very questionable they would sell better. Ivysaur is not extremely popular compred to Bulbasaur or Venusaur. It's the oddball and always was. A huge amount of Pokemon popularity is due to the Anime alone. Note how Bulbasaur and Venusaur show up the most in the Anime while Ivysaur gets a single episode appearance. There's a reason for that. The middle forms in the first Gen had very little love. Wartortle was the only one to somewhat stand out. It may help that it looked fairly unique compared to the other ones. Charmeleon is just a slightly bigger/longer dinosaur. Ivysaur is just the leaves opened up. Wartortle just suddenly has wings on its head. It doesn't make any sense at all. It stands out more. Also, Squirtle is severely more popular than Ivysaur. There's no reason to believe it's 'both or nothing" with them. Neither of those points hold any actual truth to it. Being a Pokemon does suggest it'd sell decently for paild DLC. Does not actually hold true just because they are Pokemon.

Deserving is absolutely subjective.
The fact that nearly any pokemon would sell better, not that subjective.
A brief history into the understanding of Nintendo merchandise will show you that Pokemon even still outsells Mario when it coems to promotional products. As per the boom in 1999 described by economists as a phenomenon, transcending the fields of sociology, ecology, and psychology alone, Pokemon has been an unmatched sensation in regard to revenue and consumer penny.
The fact that you distinguish that Ivysaur and Bulbasaur are nearly interchangeable only furthers the point that they chose Ivysaur to represent the second stage, while making it nearly the exact same Pokemon as the popular first stage Pokedex launcher. The original starters will always hold a place of nostalgia over older fans, and be continued to introduce new fans to the game in nearly every generation.

And no, Rosalina can't really be just considred some Princess. She either is called one in-game, or she isn't. Her "looks" don't matter. That was never relevant. She doesn't even fit the Mario series Princess archtype all that well. She doesn't get kidnapped from the first game. She has a full story again right away. She's a stand out.

Huh, missed another message earlier; Rosalina was never considered a Princess. I think it's implied she's a Goddess or Queen at best.

Perhaps not; she may not be stated to be a Princess, I honestly don't care to debate it because I don't know if she was and it is either factual or not.
That said, it is absolutely IMPLIED that she is regardless as to if it is stated or not. The archetype you describe is not what defines a Mario Princess at all- ruling over an amount of terrain, the dress, playability in many games, these are contributing factors. You must also weigh in they Disney Factor, wherein any popular female of ruling is a princess by consumerism right. By a pop cultural affect, she may not be stated to be a princess, but she is absolutely Implied to be.

 

[Rajikaru]

The wiki also says

It also says "Although Rosalina's design has not been changed since her debut, when she was originally being created for Super Mario Galaxy, her concept design was vastly different compared to what she looks like now. She was depicted with a beehive hairstyle along with straight-cut bangs. She had more unique facial features including the style of her eyes and mouth; the facial features she has now are more similar to Peach's. Her outfit was more similar to Peach and Daisy's, however, complimenting her now dropped trait as a princess. Instead of a crown, she wore a tiara, and her gloves were just like Peach's."

Super Mario Galaxy

• Bios
  • Instruction manual: "This keeper of the Comet Observatory floats through the cosmos with curious star creatures called Lumas. Her past is shrouded in mystery."
  • Guide: "Not much is known about Rosalina, the lonely princess who wanders the cosmos in the Comet Observatory, a giant starship that travels the celestial expanse. She is a great friend of the Luma, taking them in and caring for them as if they were her children. But there is a sadness behind her eyes. What has she lost out among the stars?"

And, to finish off this discussion, calling her a princess is fine because she was in fact a princess at some point, and if it actually upsets anybody, they should consider cooling down because it is, in fact, pointless semantics.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

I... I don't know what your point is. Congratulations?

They hurt the chances of squirtle and ivysaur

 

[pupNapoleon]

They hurt the chances of squirtle and ivysaur

Let's clear something up.
There are no 'chances' in smash bros. We use this terminology as fans, in prediction, because we have no idea who will be in or what Sakurai feels.

However, it is all or nothing. There are not percentages, not odds, no chances.
There is balancing of a series, sure, and we will not get 80 Mario reps and 4 from the rest of Nintendo.
We do not know, still, what this means to Sakurai.
It is not as if it would be strange for Pokemon to have Eight characters in this game, particularly since it was supposed to have SEVEN in Brawl, (the six we had, and forbidden cut Mewtwo).

What you mean to say, is that your interpretation of having other Pokemon characters in lieu of Squirtle and Ivysaur, lessens the need for further Pokemon characters to be added back in.
Yet still, as two of the most iconic Nintendo IPs not in SSB4, and being veterans, I'd say both have strong chances.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

Let's clear something up.
There are no 'chances' in smash bros. We use this terminology as fans, in prediction, because we have no idea who will be in or what Sakurai feels.

However, it is all or nothing. There are not percentages, not odds, no chances.
There is balancing of a series, sure, and we will not get 80 Mario reps and 4 from the rest of Nintendo.
We do not know, still, what this means to Sakurai.
It is not as if it would be strange for Pokemon to have Eight characters in this game, particularly since it was supposed to have SEVEN in Brawl, (the six we had, and forbidden cut Mewtwo).

What you mean to say, is that your interpretation of having other Pokemon characters in lieu of Squirtle and Ivysaur, lessens the need for further Pokemon characters to be added back in.
Yet still, as two of the most iconic Nintendo IPs not in SSB4, and being veterans, I'd say both have strong chances.

I'm just saying that if sakurai had any intention of bringing squirtle or ivysaur back, mewtwo and greninja wouldn't be in the game. Squirtle's entire role has been filled by greninja and without pokemon trainer, ivysaur is pointless

 

[pupNapoleon]

I'm just saying that if sakurai had any intention of bringing squirtle or ivysaur back, mewtwo and greninja wouldn't be in the game. Squirtle's entire role has been filled by greninja and without pokemon trainer, ivysaur is pointless

Greninja's role is gen six badass pokemon.

Squirtles role is beloved adorable classic fan favorite, one of the most iconic Nintendo characters still to date, by the way, and fulfilling the title of representing the entire mechanic of pokemon, battling strategy, the marketing of such for each generation encompassed within as well.

Unless Sakurai decided to make a new trio with a new grass starter, Greninja serves a completely different purpose.

He claimed with adding Robin that it was perfect because it captured the essence of the entire series.
So far, he isn't doing that at all with Pokemon, he just happens to have random monsters chosen to play as.
He was MUCH closer to the essence of Pokemon with the trainer, in capturing what the series is actually about.

He doesn't have POKEMON portrayed well at all in this generation- the worst its ever been in fact. There is no unifying factor or whole feeling to the characters selected, at all, which is something that quite literally cannot be said for any other franchise.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

Greninja's role is gen six badass pokemon.

Squirtles role is beloved adorable classic fan favorite, one of the most iconic Nintendo characters still to date, by the way, and fulfilling the title of representing the entire mechanic of pokemon, battling strategy, the marketing of such for each generation encompassed within as well.

Unless Sakurai decided to make a new trio with a new grass starter, Greninja serves a completely different purpose.

He claimed with adding Robin that it was perfect because it captured the essence of the entire series.
So far, he isn't doing that at all with Pokemon, he just happens to have random monsters chosen to play as.
He was MUCH closer to the essence of Pokemon with the trainer, in capturing what the series is actually about.

He doesn't have POKEMON portrayed well at all in this generation- the worst its ever been in fact. There is no unifying factor or whole feeling to the characters selected, at all, which is something that quite literally cannot be said for any other franchise.

But they both fill the same role, water starter that's fast

 

[ProjectAngel]

To add to Noivern's point, adding in Squirtle and Ivysaur would stuff the Pokemon part of the roster with too many 1st gen reps. You already have four (Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Charizard, and soon to be Mewtwo), so why add more? Other gens need loving- which is why we have Lucario from 4th gen and Greninja from 6th gen; we even had a 2nd gen rep in Pichu back in Melee.

And while Squirtle and Ivysaur are popular, they don't hold a candle to Charizard's popularity, which is why he was chosen over the other two Pokemon.

Sakurai also has different reasons for choosing each newcomer; he doesn't hold each newcomer to the same logic and reasoning.

 

[Greda]

4. The "final" 3ds roster can fit 4 more character slots onto it and completely fill up the screen without altering the size of any of the character icons.

I didn't read through all 66 pages, so if someone mentioned this already, please tell me.

To start off, I've been thinking of Mewtwo's release for quite a while now. This would naturally change a shift from 1.0.4(3DS) to 1.0.5, and 1.0.1(WiiU) to 1.0.2, granted there will be no updates until that time.

I'm implying that this will more or less be a major update, including the tourney mode and sharing stages and whatnot online that was announced, as Nintendo has done something like this with updates in the past. For example, Mario Kart 8 included Amiibo functionality and a Shop feature after the first DLC pack came out, no?

Comparing the versions, and updates from other games, such as Mario Kart 8, it's likely possible that the entire CSS can change within the patch. The CSS would look really disoriented, especially in the Wii U version, if there was Mewtwo just right there in the middle of the rows, and would possibly break the balance. This leads me to believe a change will at least happen to both versions to better depict the arrival for Mewtwo, as such, I am thinking that it will at least get overhauled in the 3DS version, seeing the amount of feedback on it.

Whenever this gets overhauled, since Sakurai said he didn't plan on DLC, further supporting this with no more balance pathes, I will think that the Character Selection Screen will finally be fixed be in the area it was supposed to look like.

However, I absolutely have nothing to support that it will in fact change the CSS majorly, so go wild on discussion.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I would not trust Player's Guides as an official source in the same way as Nintendo itself being an official source.

...Especially one made by Prima. They've done quite a few errors, although are decently good. I know, since I own many of their guides and at least one I studied carefully has errors alone(pretty ridiculous ones too). They're still fans creating guides. The Instructional Manual or Miyamoto is literally the only thing that is useful for knowing what her official status is. As of now, it's legitimately unknown.

No, she is not implied to be one either. She's outright said to be the adoptive Mother of the Lumas, but that's it. There is no Disney archtype to consider either. This is the Mario series. Rosalina doesn't even rule some huge Kingdom. It's hardly the same thing. And yes, a major key point of each Princess thus far has them being kidnapped. In the case of the Princess of the Beanbean Kingdom, she got her mind kidnapped instead and was controlled. That's basically the whole point of them, they're designed to be kidnapped. Sure they do a little bit more, but that's their basic premise. This does not apply to every series with a Princess(although it's a Zelda issue too). Albeit, this does only apply to those who live outside of a body. Since there's a Princess living inside Bowser's Body, it's a bit weird. It doesn't matter if Rosalina was originally a Princess concept. That got changed and she's now different. There is still no actual official word from the main Booklet(which to be fair have been inaccurate on things before) or from Miyamoto himself. Or even the other people working on it. Just another Company who makes guides based off of stuff they think applies sometimes. In addition, keep in mind that Rosalina looks similar to the Princesses, so it's not hard to think she is one. The Prima Guide makes thinking that is not unjustified. Lastly, there's absolutely zero implications in her own storybook that she's truly a Princess. At least not in the way the series generally defines it. She doesn't have a natural Kingdom. She's not kidnapped at all, which is a huge thing in the Mario series for Princesses to be given the role of. MarioWiki using a fan Guide(by design) was an error on their part, basically. Rosalina is not officially a Princess in the Mario series. At least through any completely official sources. Not a semi-official source that was approved, but like all "Official Guides" not written by Nintendo's employees, can easily contain errors. Or even lacking information. Smash 4's official guide doesn't even have a proper Assist Trophy list. -_-

That said, technically, Squirtle's "role" is not gone. The issue is that that's a lot of Pokemon already. We're talking about 8, over 2 Mother and 3 StarFox characters. With Mewtwo in, Pokemon is already well represented. Ivysaur would be nice to fill a Grass spot, sure, but I don't think Sakurai cares about the Starter Trio now that PT was directly cut. That made sense for him specifically, but it's not necessary for the new game as a whole.

 

[pupNapoleon]

To add to Noivern's point, adding in Squirtle and Ivysaur would stuff the Pokemon part of the roster with too many 1st gen reps. You already have four (Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Charizard, and soon to be Mewtwo), so why add more? Other gens need loving- which is why we have Lucario from 4th gen and Greninja from 6th gen; we even had a 2nd gen rep in Pichu back in Melee.

And while Squirtle and Ivysaur are popular, they don't hold a candle to Charizard's popularity, which is why he was chosen over the other two Pokemon.

Sakurai also has different reasons for choosing each newcomer; he doesn't hold each newcomer to the same logic and reasoning.

That's completely arbitrary. Why would all generations get a character, and why should they?
That's a fan constructed notion that is completely baseless.
All generations don't even represent equal numbers of Pokemon, much less equal years on market, equal numbers of games, equal amounts of new content, equal popularity...
Of course diversify the roster, but lumping all of the Pokemon who happen to be in gen 1 together simply because they happen to be in gen one is about the same as lumping together all sword fighters. It's something they have in common, but it is by no means the defining characteristic.

If you want to get a pokemon that "Holds a candle to Chaizards popularity," then I guess no one but Pikachu is a character.

But they both fill the same role, water starter that's fast

Another arbitrary description of your own assertion as to statements they have in common.

If Greninja's role is 'water type,' and as a replacement to Squirtle, then there would be a Grass type, because the whole schtick was that the triangle- the representation of the battling component, as well as the starter Pokemon, huge in marketing every new generation and instant celebrities with each generation.
Greninja's role can defacto not take over Squirtle's in that regard if a piece of such is missing. Ergo, he simply happens to be a water starter, but that is superfluous to the relationship at hand.

That said, I could easily argue that Greninja fills Sheik's role in this game thematically. Does that get me anywhere? Of course it does not, because, while they share a relationship, no Causation can be determined.

We got two Links before Vaati/Skull Kid/whomever, A second Mario before Toad (and initially before a good number of other Mario characters), three space pilot animals before Krystal, two psychic boys in striped shirts, three blue haired swordsmen/people of Fire Emblem....
Whatever "roles" you have determined are surely made up by yourself and have no impact on what happens to the roster in Sakurai's eyes. Otherwise Link surely would have filled the role of Link.

 

[TheAnvil]

The problem with Daisy is that literally no one aprart from about 3 people on the internet care about her. To the rest of the world she's Peach with brown hair and a yellow dress.
Waluigi on the other hand, has a completely distinguishable physical design, unique character traits that stem from his design, an actual fan base and a connection to three of the most popular and iconic Nintendo characters.
There's a reason why he was selected as an Assist Trophy, and Daisy has still never been anywhere near a Smash game ever.

To add to Noivern's point, adding in Squirtle and Ivysaur would stuff the Pokemon part of the roster with too many 1st gen reps. You already have four (Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Charizard, and soon to be Mewtwo), so why add more? Other gens need loving- which is why we have Lucario from 4th gen and Greninja from 6th gen; we even had a 2nd gen rep in Pichu back in Melee.

And while Squirtle and Ivysaur are popular, they don't hold a candle to Charizard's popularity, which is why he was chosen over the other two Pokemon.

Sakurai also has different reasons for choosing each newcomer; he doesn't hold each newcomer to the same logic and reasoning.

There's no such thing as "too many first gen reps". The fact is that the majority of Pokemon's most popular and most iconic characters come from Gen 1. Pokemon are Pokemon, they all exist together in the same world.

If you hold Charizard as a measuring stick for popularity, and decide that anyone less popular is not worthy to be included in Smash, then he should be the only Pokemon rep, because he IS the most popular Pokemon of all time.

I'd not be at all surprised if Ivysaur and Squirtle come back as DLC. Even if they did, Pokemon would still not go over Mario in terms of reps (Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Peach, Bowser, Bowser Jr, Dr Mario, Rosalina and basically Wario too).

 

[Kenith]

The problem with Daisy is that literally no one aprart from about 3 people on the internet care about her. To the rest of the world she's Peach with brown hair and a yellow dress.
Waluigi on the other hand, has a completely distinguishable physical design, unique character traits that stem from his design, an actual fan base and a connection to three of the most popular and iconic Nintendo characters.
There's a reason why he was selected as an Assist Trophy, and Daisy has still never been anywhere near a Smash game ever.

Lol. You lost me when you said Daisy doesn't have fans but Waluigi has so many fans.
Nevermind the reason that Waluigi is well known is because he is widely disliked or otherwise mixed.

 

[TheAnvil]

Lol. You lost me when you said Daisy doesn't have fans but Waluigi has so many fans.
Nevermind the reason that Waluigi is well known is because he is widely disliked or otherwise mixed.

I didn't say that Waluigi has "so many fans". He's a pretty polarizing figure actually, a lot do seem to hate him, but there's an equal amount that actually like him.
Daisy invokes no opinion either way. She's just a nothing.

 

[Kenith]

I didn't say that Waluigi has "so many fans". He's a pretty polarizing figure actually, a lot do seem to hate him, but there's an equal amount that actually like him.
Daisy invokes no opinion either way. She's just a nothing.

And again, that's not really true. Baby Daisy wouldn't exist if she was a nothing. Hell, even Daisy stayed in MK7 while Waluigi was cut.

 

[TheAnvil]

And again, that's not really true. Baby Daisy wouldn't exist if she was a nothing. Hell, even Daisy stayed in MK7 while Waluigi was cut.

By that logic, Pink Gold Peach is more popular than Diddy Kong.

 

[Rajikaru]

And again, that's not really true. Baby Daisy wouldn't exist if she was a nothing. Hell, even Daisy stayed in MK7 while Waluigi was cut.

And then he was added back in Mario Kart 8. And nobody knows why he wasn't in MK7 anyways.

Also, babies of literally almost every Mario character exist. Baby Mario, Baby Luigi, Baby Bowser, Baby DK, Baby Yoshis are in NSMBW, Baby Peach AND Daisy, Baby Rosalina... At this point they're just easy additional characters in the MK games, like the metallic Mario and Peach characters.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

And then he was added back in Mario Kart 8. And nobody knows why he wasn't in MK7 anyways.

Also, babies of literally almost every Mario character exist. Baby Mario, Baby Luigi, Baby Bowser, Baby DK, Baby Yoshis are in NSMBW, Baby Peach AND Daisy, Baby Rosalina... At this point they're just easy additional characters in the MK games, like the metallic Mario and Peach characters.

Literally, the only thing that's coincidental about the Baby choices is they all are characters who are from the platformers. That's... it.

As for the Metals, it seems that just about anyone in the Mario series can potentially go Metal now, so it's just a normal thing. Some different colored now just to make them look more unique. Gold Mario, Metal Mario, Metal Wario, Metal Bowser, Silver Mario, and now Gold Pink Peach.

 

[Rajikaru]

Literally, the only thing that's coincidental about the Baby choices is they all are characters who are from the platformers. That's... it.

Never said there was any coincidence to them being included, I just said that they're the easiest "new characters to add in". There's no specific reason as to why they're added other than they're easy: just shrink down the characters to baby Mario-size, and babify their appearance. That's... it.

As for the Metals, it seems that just about anyone in the Mario series can potentially go Metal now, so it's just a normal thing. Some different colored now just to make them look more unique. Gold Mario, Metal Mario, Metal Wario, Metal Bowser, Silver Mario, and now Gold Pink Peach.

Again, didn't say anything about why they're included, just that they're incredibly easy. Slap a metallic texture on the character, run their voice samples through a modifier, and bam, all you have left to do is what you do for the other characters: unique stats and a unique car colour scheme.

Arguing that Baby Daisy being added to Mario Kart is proof that she's important or anything like that is silly. ANY character can be added to Mario Kart, as proven with the Queen Bee or whatever in Mario Kart 7. Who exactly wanted her? Probably like 5 people, but she was still a character. At the end of the day, Daisy's just a tomboy Peach with an orange colour scheme and different hair. Waluigi isn't exactly unique either, however, but at the very least he has a distinct profile since he's so lanky, and his face is unique. They both have as much chance as anybody to be added into the Smash games eventually.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh boy, catch up time!

I completely agree with Rosalina not being a Peach clone, because that makes total sense, and plus she can represent some Mario Galaxy moves/ideas.
Daisy, on the other hand, has really just been a Peach counterpart for sooo long. So it would make sense to introduce her as an alt in the vein of Olimar/Alph etc. I don't think Peach's moves would be that out of character anyway. Or really Daisy could be a clone/semi clone like Luigi is of Mario, but either way they're going to be similar. And her similarity to Peach doesn't mean she doesn't have any fans. For example: http://nintendoprincessdaisyfansite.webs.com/
--------------
As for Squirtle and Ivysaur, I agree that Smash can't have one without the other, which would be okay because I like both. Also, yes, Ivysaur is not as popular as Bulbasaur or Venusaur, but it has been pointed out that it's pretty much a mix of the two (slightly closer to Bulbasuar, though, which is probably more popular), and I'm sure there are now more Ivysaur fans because of Brawl.
And while some complain about "too many Gen1 reps"---I'm sorry, but Gen1 will always be more important than any other generation of Pokemon, because it was the first. The mascot of Pokemon in general is from Gen1. And for many, any forms of the three original starters are more important than other starters that will follow. Besides, even if they weren't tied to the Pokemon Trainer, I think their inclusion would neatly round out the Pokemon reps. But since their inclusion may seem superfluous to some, that makes them perfectly ideal for DLC.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Never said there was any coincidence to them being included, I just said that they're the easiest "new characters to add in". There's no specific reason as to why they're added other than they're easy: just shrink down the characters to baby Mario-size, and babify their appearance. That's... it.

Never said that at any time.

Again, didn't say anything about why they're included, just that they're incredibly easy. Slap a metallic texture on the character, run their voice samples through a modifier, and bam, all you have left to do is what you do for the other characters: unique stats and a unique car colour scheme.

Never said that at any time.

Arguing that Baby Daisy being added to Mario Kart is proof that she's important or anything like that is silly. ANY character can be added to Mario Kart, as proven with the Queen Bee or whatever in Mario Kart 7. Who exactly wanted her? Probably like 5 people, but she was still a character. At the end of the day, Daisy's just a tomboy Peach with an orange colour scheme and different hair. Waluigi isn't exactly unique either, however, but at the very least he has a distinct profile since he's so lanky, and his face is unique. They both have as much chance as anybody to be added into the Smash games eventually.

Nobody argued this that I saw on this topic.

You brought up all these points yourself, nobody else. I consider every Mario character to hold importance outside of any Hotel Mario specific ones at best. I have full reasons to believe every game is canon outside of the CD-i games bar none, and no reason to believe someone isn't important due to that alone. When the creator of the series implies no game is "non-canon"(except Super Mario Galaxy 2, and that's specifically the story only), there is no reason to believe otherwise.

Also, that's not really what Daisy is. She's a bit more than that, but her personality is pretty distinct from Peach's, and she has also does not show the same skill set either. We never saw any of Daisy's other skills. She's clearly a far more activate character in Sports, and more rough. This is a large contrast. Despite being similar to Peach in concept, she spun off as a rather notable character. It's to the point that some joke about her Sports version being a "different character", which is silly, but eh. Daisy doesn't show any actual differences outside of the various Sports/Party games. There's a reason she has a different "personality stamp" in Mario Party 3, as does everybody else. She isn't just a slightly different Peach. She may not be as heavily unique as Waluigi is(and he's got some of the strongest personality in the series. Only beaten out by other direct Mario characters from the RPG's, Bowser, and Wario at best), but she's not just a recolored Peach either. That's likely a reason why Peach never got a proper alt of her. They're a lot more different than people give credit for.

 

[Rajikaru]

Christ, what am I even arguing with you about at this point?
Alright, I'll try to end it here:
Nobody would complain if Daisy were an alt of Peach (I already said this as an FYI). Nobody would complain if she was a semi-clone of Peach (another FYI). Nobody would complain if she was her own new character, and nobody should complain if she ends up as none of those. Using information from a video game to try and prove the idea that she could be x or y is dumb, because they're video games, universes created by other people that don't actually exist, and can change at any second. Using them as reasoning or logic for their inclusion is also dumb, as proven by Ridley and the WFT, to polar opposite but accurate cases.

Daisy was originally a recolour of Peach, that's a fact. She now has an orange colour scheme, a tomboy personality, and an affinity with flowers. These are also facts. She is the Luigi to Mario or the Waluigi to Wario, except with differences in departments other than body type. Fact.

Now whatever you're trying to prove or argue with me or anybody else in this thread (this goes for everybody), stop arguing dumb things like "Rosalina ISN'T a princess" or "DAISY SHOULD GET IN BEFORE WALUIGI BECAUSE SHE'S MORE IMPORTANT IN THE MAIN GAME SERIES" or whatever cause they're dumb things to be arguing about. Don't be dumb.

 

[skylanders fan]

I'm just saying that if sakurai had any intention of bringing squirtle or ivysaur back, mewtwo and greninja wouldn't be in the game. Squirtle's entire role has been filled by greninja and without pokemon trainer, ivysaur is pointless

that is seriously the dumbest thing i have ever heard

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

I just think it'd be weird to see daisy floating, pulling out toads and throwing vegetables

Where did you get that Wolf pic in your signature?
Also on the Rosalina thing, she's the ruler of the cosmos, Game theory made a video about her (though its not official) I kind of consider her kind of like a magical princess, (also why does she golf holding the golf club with her wand?)
Also there was a huge data dump
http://smashboards.com/threads/data-dump-information.369704/

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

Where did you get that Wolf pic in your signature?
Also on the Rosalina thing, she's the ruler of the cosmos, Game theory made a video about her (though its not official) I kind of consider her kind of like a magical princess, (also why does she golf holding the golf club with her wand?)
Also there was a huge data dump
http://smashboards.com/threads/data-dump-information.369704/

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-smash-3-project-not-working-with-3-5.340807/

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-smash-3-project-not-working-with-3-5.340807/

Do you have the Wolf separate from the others?

So far I haven't found it, If I'm missing it please tell me.

 

[pupNapoleon]

That said, technically, Squirtle's "role" is not gone. The issue is that that's a lot of Pokemon already. We're talking about 8, over 2 Mother and 3 StarFox characters.

I'm not sure I'm seenig the problem. In recognition, monetary profit, viable character count, number of games, consumer fanbase, ... any claim to how many characters a series gets, Pokemon more than triple beats it.
The real losers are the unrepped series at all.
Mother getting 2 characters is legitimately overkill. Starfox getting 3, at the time, even seemed 'over repped' by my standard.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm not sure I'm seenig the problem. In recognition, monetary profit, viable character count, number of games, consumer fanbase, ... any claim to how many characters a series gets, Pokemon more than triple beats it.
The real losers are the unrepped series at all.
Mother getting 2 characters is legitimately overkill. Starfox getting 3, at the time, even seemed 'over repped' by my standard.

Mother getting 2 characters is not overrepresentation. StarFox getting 3 isn't either. That's utter bull. They barely have any representation to begin with compared to Pokemon, which has it in spades. It has less Songs, Assist characters(and Hazards like Flying Man), regular Characters, Trophies. About the only thing they're nearly the same on is stages. Oh, and Pokemon had actual Bosses(although no longer in 4 since the Brawl Bosses were all turned into Hazards or removed entirely. No, Stage Bosses still are not a real thing. They're actually still Hazards officially, never actually called a Stage Boss in any actual context, and I am actually talking about regular Bosses like Master Hand, not Hazards that are based upon a Boss from a series. Ridley stopped being a Boss since Brawl. A real Boss, anyway) You've overselling it. Pokemon is severely and well-repped. It doesn't have any reason to add anyone beyond Mewtwo now. It's beautifully done and has all it needs. StarFox and Mother are vastly underrepped in comparison. No, none of that frankly matters. You've still underepping them severely.

Representation is more than playable characters. StarFox/Mother barely has, what, 1/8 of Pokemon's amount of representation(and I'm pretty understating it too!)? Pokemon has over 50 Trophies alone. More Songs by far. Yeah, this is false that they're(SF, Mother) overrepped in total with 5 characters between the series. None of that justifies it. There is no reason for them to return their previous characters just as much as Pokemon could get theirs back. You might as well bring them all back, except, to be frank, Young Link, since he's literally the only one with his role gone. They have to change him up and give him a new gimmick entirely. Roy's only issue is the same name problem, but otherwise is not simply like Ike or Lucina, despite having similarities to both. He plays very differently and could still be made more unique. And I do not dislike the idea of Yong Link or everybody else returning. You just have to make them notable/unique. There's little point to return every Pokemon, but still leaves Mother and StarFox out in the cold. Fire Emblem at least got two new characters so they aren't that low, but StarFox and Mother? Vastly lower. Doesn't make much sense at all.

Lastly, once a character gets in, they're deserving by that point. Nobody actually should be cut, but revamped to allow more unique playstyles. Ganondorf feels vastly different from Falcon now to the point that they barely could be called clones. Semi-clones at best. Falco got this too, even moreso in 4. Nobody feels just like another outside of Dark Pit and Lucina, and only kind of on Lucina. Dr. Mario is just too different now. Lucina requires another playstyle. Dark Pit sadly dropped the ball on this, but that's what it is(but he still has some notable differences that justifies choosing one over the other). I only hope he gets more unique in the next game, too.

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

I'm not sure I'm seenig the problem. In recognition, monetary profit, viable character count, number of games, consumer fanbase, ... any claim to how many characters a series gets, Pokemon more than triple beats it.
The real losers are the unrepped series at all.
Mother getting 2 characters is legitimately overkill. Starfox getting 3, at the time, even seemed 'over repped' by my standard.

I personally consider a series overepped if it has more playable reps than number of games in their respective franchise. Kid Icarus is pushing it 3 reps 3 games.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I personally consider a series overepped if it has more playable reps than number of games in their respective franchise. Kid Icarus is pushing it 3 reps 3 games.

I agree. Notably, every series avoids this. Remember, Red/Blue/Yellow/Green are all officially different games in the end Pokemon-wise. Same with Stadium/Stadium 2, etc. Pokemon has tons of games and could easily have 9 characters without being overrepped by this definition. There's going to be 6 StarFox games soon. I do not count a simple remake as a different game, mind you. 3 characters is barely scratching the surface. There's 3 Mother games. 2 characters is hardly overrepping them, like, at all. Fire Emblem has a ton of games and barely has gotten 5 overall characters. Metroid still has 2 with a vast amount of games, and they haven't even managed to have a different person other than Samus herself, despite a pretty good variety otu there. Not that I want a Hunter over someone heavily important like Ridley, but let's not pretend it doesn't have many viable choices for uniqueness. To note, I'd rather have a new character that isn't nearly the same as another. I would only have minded Dark Pit if Palutena was not there. But since she is, he's not an issue because he's not the "only new KI rep" overall. In other words, unless the series already justified two characters from the start(see: Mario and really only that), giving essentially a clone as their second character is not a good way to represent the series and it's variety of things it's known for.

The thing about each character is that it represents more than just themselves alone, it shows off the power of their series too. Despite Ganondorf being a clone, he still shows off the dark and brutal magic he's capable of, as well as others in the series proper. Link shows off the massive item selection and sword techniques from various games. Zelda well represents all of Ocarina of Time and now a bit of Spirit Tracks. Sheik shows the more fast nature of characters that appear, including various Ninja-based ones in the series. Young/Toon Link is no different from Link except that he shows how a Young and a more Adult can both function as true heroes. Everybody feels this way to me overall. They feel well-repped in variety. Bar none. Dark Pit actually does show some different weapons and a very different jerkish personality that makes me enjoy having him in. Now, while Wario pretty much is nowhere near notable for his Wario Land stuff, he still reps WarioWare just fine, which is still a notable thing for him. I prefer WL myself, but still. Wolf doesn't play really like anyone else and was one of the few antagonists to be cut(a true one. Mewtwo can barely apply for this. King Dedede and Meta Knight show up too often as heroes or similar now). You get what I mean, though. Lucas was a rather unique character that wasn't that much like Ness outside of his specials to a slight degree(and really only their PK Thunder was pretty similar, with the others have somewhat similar properties but still very distinct).

Overall point is that only Young Link/Toon Link truly shared a direct role, and even they aren't exactly the same as each other. So having anyone back only adds to the overall series and never truly overreps them. I can understand not going over 10 characters for any series(9 is the max we have via Pokemon entirely, albeit not in one game at a time. Smash 64 had 2, Melee had 4, Brawl had 6, and now Smash 4 is going to have 6 again. I wouldn't mind it having 8 just to increase the number by 2 if only cause I like patterns, but I think they're vastly repped well and all I truly want to see is a new Grass Pokemon to show off the various different Types themselves. Or a type not currently used. But eh.).

 

[TheAnvil]

I'm not sure I'm seenig the problem. In recognition, monetary profit, viable character count, number of games, consumer fanbase, ... any claim to how many characters a series gets, Pokemon more than triple beats it.
The real losers are the unrepped series at all.
Mother getting 2 characters is legitimately overkill. Starfox getting 3, at the time, even seemed 'over repped' by my standard.

Seriously, Pokemon is Nintendo's second most profitable franchise. It has a cast that exceeds 700 viable characters, all with unique moveset potential, character traits and varying levels of popularity. At least 50 of those characters are household names (with about 95% of those being from Gen 1). If any franchise deserves more characters than Mario, that franchise is Pokemon. And it's entirely justifiable to give them as many characters as Mario has (9 including Wario, which means if Squirtle, Ivysaur and Pichu all came back both franchises would have 8 unique characters and 1 clone).

Squirtle and Ivysaur literally make for perfect DLC characters. They're popular, Iconic, they have Smash relevance and they have unique movesets. They tick every box.

FTR I think SF sat perfectly at 3. My only real complaint with Brawl's roster in regards to franchise representation is that DK should have had 3 (and a 4th in this game).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ivysaur is not severely iconic. Seriously, stop overrating him so much. He only got in because he was the middle evolution and Squirtle was more popular than Bulbsaur, with Charizard severely outweighing them both. They could've just as easily went with Bulbasaur, who is way more iconic than his next evolution. Venusaur is also still more iconic.

Pokemon having 9 would definitely outweight Mario's direct 7 representation(enough with the bullcrap, Yoshi and Wario are not counted as Mario characters. They're their own series entirely in Smash. Let it go and just live with it already). Right now, Pokemon has one less than Mario after Mewtwo comes back. Getting more than Mario's 7 is already going overboard, the main series. That, and Ivysaur nor Squirtle can easily come back without the other. They were mainly notable in Brawl because they were together. Charizard was regardless of them and easily earned his own unique slot(slots are a thing, keep in mind. Slots can hold multiple playable characters too. As PT's 3 characters clearly sknow).

SF is perfect at 3 or 4. Both work fine. It has 4 viable characters right now(with Krystal being the only one to bring anything more unique than Wolf, who is already highly unique). DK can easily justify 1 or 2 more as well. Mother is more than easy enough to get 2 total at the very least. Pokemon really doesn't need to go beyond 7 or 8 unless it has some better variety. As of Smash 4 and even during Brawl, no type was reused for playable characters, the best variety the series is about. We don't need another Water Pokemon. Ivysaur brings more with a more unique moveset(a lot of Squirtle's moves are decently covered among the cast, and Grenija as well does cover a very similar role. It's not just type, but the fact he's both a starter and has speedy water moves, and also was better designed to a degree. The only major difference between them other than a somewhat different moveset is their size and how it facts into their power/defense capabilities. Greninja can lost longer. That's about it). I would gladly take Ivysaur back, but I'd rather just throw another Grass type that we have yet to see at all, namely from the other vastly underrepped Gens. He has never actually given a playable character for anything but the latest Gen at the time. To be perfectly honest, if we actually had 3 more playable characters, I'd rather they were from Gen II, III, and V. Preferably of unique types, but Pichu would be fun to play as again anyway, especially if they found a way to make him feel more interesting(like his electric attacks could increase as he gains more damage, but he also only takes damage during electric moves of his own. I could also see him resisting other electric attacks to make him more viable). The whole damage mechanic was better done to a degree with Lucario(obviously the mechanic is different, but they focus on the general gimmick of "damage" in some way). It's a crutch for him, but I also think it makes him very interesting too.

Also, with Tether Recoveries removed for balance purposes, it's a problem for Ivysaur because he outright depends on it design-wise. He has very few options for actual Up B's as is. That's not even counting the customs. Another thing to note is returning a character is one thing, but making them properly with the new changes to the series as a whole takes a lot of works. And balnce. And customs. Pokemon does not work as well as it used to for characters due to the customs alone. It requires a bit more than just simple options and actually makes choosing them a bit harder now. Since a lot of them have far less similar choices to replace a custom with(there's not much for Vine Whip even, or Bullet Seed...), they can't just slap it on because of "tons of moves available". Having lots of choices only works if they make sense. I feel that a lot of Pokemon have far less chance of happening due to this alone. I honestly am not so sure Ivysaur and Squirtle have a good chance of coming back. Pichu does, if only due to being a clone and faster to remake, as well as having more options for a new gimmick than the other two. I also honestly don't think we'll get anyone new till Smash 5 proper Pokemon-wise unless the next Gen holds a really interesting character and comes out early enough. Every DLC character will take a ton of work. In fact, I think Sakurai might try and concentrate on more type differences just to make them stand out better. I don't honestly think Squirtle was cut just because PT didn't work, but with Greninja, part of his role is still covered. And he was interesting to him already, and there was great variety with Charizard's revamping already. Likewise, let's not pretend Sakurai doesn't attempt to represent multiple Gens at once. If Gen 1 was severely important to him alone, we wouldn't have each Gen vastly represented. It's not just characters. There's stages, music, and trophies. Of course Smash 64 had two Gen 1 Pokemon. No other choice. He easily went with a Gen II Pokemon as a clone as well, to show it off, plus other stuff related to it in Melee. Overall, if we get a DLC Pokemon character back, I wouldn't be surprised if Pichu got the spot instead after Mewtwo. Easier to do, nobody damages themselves as an overall mechanic, is still iconic and pretty much Gen II's mascot, and yes, was missed by many.

 

[ShinyRegice]

Why are people expecting Smash 4 DLC characters to be mostly cut characters from previous games? Because they're easier to do than full newcomers? Because we got Mewtwo? To be honest I don't think that returning back previous fighters is THAT easy compared to actual newcomers, unless I'm wrong animation and hitbox data cannot just be copy-pasted from Melee/Brawl to Smash 4 so easily, and creating a moveset on paper takes only a few hours if you're inspired. The only time-saving thing I really see is porting the base model, but it's probably the least time-consuming part of creating a character. Again, I'm not a programming expert, so the "animation and hitbox data can't be copy-pasted so easily" is maybe flawed. And for Mewtwo, he had many reasons to return asides from being a cut veteran, with both legendary level fan demand and huge recent revelancy in the recent years that confirmed his role as a Pokémon staple, and without the later I believe that the former would be less important tbh. No other cut character can compare to that. None.

tl;dr Just because you were playable in a previous Smash game doesn't mean you'll make it into the battle again.

(And btw I'm curious to know how people reacted to Melee cuts - asides Mewtwo of course - when Brawl's roster was confirmed. Did they miss Dr. Mario, Young Link, Pichu and Roy very much? I know DLCs weren't a possibility back then, so post-release character and roster discussions weren't as active as now.)

And...

SF is perfect at 3 or 4. Both work fine. It has 4 viable characters right now(with Krystal being the only one to bring anything more unique than Wolf, who is already highly unique). DK can easily justify 1 or 2 more as well. Mother is more than easy enough to get 2 total at the very least. Pokemon really doesn't need to go beyond 7 or 8 unless it has some better variety.

To be honest, I think that the "[insert name here] series should have at least/no more than [insert number here] playable characters" logic is taken too seriously. Sure, it's a factor, but it's extremely overrated IMO.