Theory on yet unrevealed characters and the WiiU/Future Unannounced DLC Discussion

[JaidynReiman]

Never mind each character requires customs, more colors, more Trophies made, and so on. Mewtwo alone is going to take a lot of work. He doesn't have time or any good reason to work on another character at this time. As you said, he made it possible for Character/Stage DLC, right? Well, he just told us of a Character and Stage DLC. Which means he's putting that data to work already and he doesn't have to make anything beyond that. I don't know why people think he absolutely will make tons of DLC characters and stages. There's no reason to believe that's guaranteed. There's no reason to believe he's working on anything beyond the character and stage at the moment. He even stopped doing patches, just to show he means it. He'll only do a new patch if a serious issue comes up. Not a smaller one, just one that actually breaks the game. It has to be as bad as ZSS' infinite on Robin(which was patched out), and it does seem there's a new Bowser Jr. Kart glitch, so I can see that being fixed soon enough since it completely changes the hitboxes and matters in battle(enough that tourneys are putting up rules for it).

I don't think he will make "tons" of DLC characters and stages. In fact, I don't think Sakurai will do anything at all DLC related. He made it pretty damn clear he's done with that. In fact, I said the exact opposite. Sakurai may have put out the framework for DLC, but he's NOT going to be the one developing it. He doesn't need to.


The fact is, the game is built with the idea in mind with DLC. We KNOW this. We've already found all this data in-game with details showing the capability of DLC, as well as options for the eShop to appear in the game menus. We also know that Namco Bandai planned to hire an additional 80 developers to work on Smash Bros. for this year. Why? For what purpose? And no, it wasn't fake, it was very much legit.

Sakurai explained pretty well. He said they had hundreds of people working on the game. Sakurai and his team are going to stop development and Namco is hiring people to help working on additional content for the game. What content? Can't say, but everything we have points to DLC.


It doesn't matter what Sakurai wants. If Nintendo wants it, its going to happen. And Nintendo has been aiming to add as much content to its games, and then extending it even more with DLC. Smash is Nintendo's biggest game right now.


Also, in regards to Mewtwo, they only just started working on Mewtwo. He's expected by Spring. That's about four months development time.


I don't think we'll get "tons" of DLC. I don't necessarily think anything I want is going to be in the game. But absolutely everything we know points to DLC being a thing, most notably Nintendo's recent plans to add DLC to all of their top games. Smash IS their biggest game. They're not going to waste the opportunity of adding DLC to Smash Bros.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't think he will make "tons" of DLC characters and stages. In fact, I don't think Sakurai will do anything at all DLC related. He made it pretty damn clear he's done with that. In fact, I said the exact opposite. Sakurai may have put out the framework for DLC, but he's NOT going to be the one developing it. He doesn't need to.

He has given zero words to say he's going to leave after Mewtwo is done. He may or may not stay. So yes, he very well could be part of the process. He has never actually suggested he won't be.

The fact is, the game is built with the idea in mind with DLC. We KNOW this. We've already found all this data in-game with details showing the capability of DLC, as well as options for the eShop to appear in the game menus. We also know that Namco Bandai planned to hire an additional 80 developers to work on Smash Bros. for this year. Why? For what purpose? And no, it wasn't fake, it was very much legit.

And yet he outright told us DLC is being tested first because he doesn't want to throw it at us without seeing what the SSB players are interested in. It already is getting DLC. That's covered. It doesn't matter how much more it can get. Doesn't mean it will get more than this.

Sakurai explained pretty well. He said they had hundreds of people working on the game. Sakurai and his team are going to stop development and Namco is hiring people to help working on additional content for the game. What content? Can't say, but everything we have points to DLC.

Doesn't actually in any way mean anything other than Miiverse and Mewtwo are being worked on. And he told us already that he is sure issues could come up against that could require additional balance patches. That alone could be their purpose, and finishing up Mewtwo in a very fast and timely manner. Seems to me like they already are serving their purpose outright.

It doesn't matter what Sakurai wants. If Nintendo wants it, its going to happen. And Nintendo has been aiming to add as much content to its games, and then extending it even more with DLC. Smash is Nintendo's biggest game right now.

No, they already are doing this just fine with Mario Kart and it's very popular due to that alone. They don't need to update Smash anymore than it already is getting and they know it. It's already severely more popular than Mario Kart regardless of the DLC coming. You're severely overestimating what they "need" to do. They have a solid and finished product with a tiny list of complaints, and it ain't lack of characters. People are quite happy with it. Mario Kart 8, on the other hand, got some serious roster complaints, considering the fact that the roster is very easy to add to in comparison. People are going nuts over Diddy not being there, same with Bowser Jr. Most people are pretty happy with Smash's roster. The stages are getting far more complaints.

Also, in regards to Mewtwo, they only just started working on Mewtwo. He's expected by Spring. That's about four months development time.

Yeah, and? It's still going to take that long to heavily balance and made new moves and him entirely from scratch. It's not like Mario who could be ported from Brawl. He's going to take all that time and they need it for him almost entirely. The few coworkers and time left can be spent gathering up the rest of the Miiverse phrases and any huge glitches that could come along that need a fix(like the Bowser Jr. one).

I don't think we'll get "tons" of DLC. I don't necessarily think anything I want is going to be in the game. But absolutely everything we know points to DLC being a thing, most notably Nintendo's recent plans to add DLC to all of their top games. Smash IS their biggest game. They're not going to waste the opportunity of adding DLC to Smash Bros.

It already is a thing. It's already happening. Why on earth are you acting like it will be more than Mewtwo and Miiverse? That's not guaranteed and never was. We were damn sure we'd get some DLC in general due to this, and that wasn't guaranteed either. Just because a coding exists for something doesn't mean it will be used.

It could very well end at Mewtwo and Miiverse. It's only going to easily continue if Mewtwo goes highly well enough to justify paying people for more DLC that they are sure will sell. Nintendo isn't going to force DLC if the sales were abysmal for Mewtwo. That'd just be a waste of money. It's bad business practice. They, just like Sakurai, are a business. They need to be sure any work they have them do will be paid for. They can't make them work without pay, and they can't get pay if the DLC won't sell. This is basic knowledge, even.

You can't give people tons of hours if you don't get the money/sales to do so. Sakurai and Nintendo are well aware of this. This still applies. And because Smash itself is already a highly solid and popular product, the chances of more than just Mewtwo and Miiverse entirely depend on their general download sales and popularity. They're not going to do it "just because" or "because it sounds like a good idea". They will do it if they're sure it'll pay out. This is the same reason many games don't get ported or put on the VC. They can't be sure it's worth it and won't think they'll sell. They could be wrong, but can they afford to take that chance? Nope. They're a business first and foremost, and they have to use their head first, not just fan demand that they can't even be sure exists. Yes, I'm sure if they get enough fan demand for someone, they may put them out there(say, Wolf for instance). If he gets massively downloaded, they could start charging for it and hope they actually pay often enough. You know, give a short trial of free, and gain cash to pay their workers. Why do you think Hyrule Warriors and Mario Kart DLC beyond balance patches actually cost money? Because they gotta pay the coworkers. And unlike those games, Smash is a fighting game, and fighting games are very controversial when you add characters. Also, if you take an actual look around many forums, many say they refuse to pay for characters, but will for anything else. Some are the opposite. If they go on reading this stuff, then they also cannot be sure it's an idea worth going for. So, they gotta test it first.

I'm absolutely sure there is no current DLC plans beyond Miiverse and Mewtwo, and any much needed patch that could come along the way. Why? Because they can't afford to do that right now until after they are sure that stuff will sell. Mewtwo is the test. Until the score is high, they'd be taking a gamble. And companies can't afford to gamble when the economies are horrible either.

 

[JaidynReiman]

He has given zero words to say he's going to leave after Mewtwo is done. He may or may not stay. So yes, he very well could be part of the process. He has never actually suggested he won't be.

And yet he outright told us DLC is being tested first because he doesn't want to throw it at us without seeing what the SSB players are interested in. It already is getting DLC. That's covered. It doesn't matter how much more it can get. Doesn't mean it will get more than this.

Doesn't actually in any way mean anything other than Miiverse and Mewtwo are being worked on. And he told us already that he is sure issues could come up against that could require additional balance patches. That alone could be their purpose, and finishing up Mewtwo in a very fast and timely manner. Seems to me like they already are serving their purpose outright.

First of all, Miiverse isn't DLC, its a free patch. Its not just Miiverse but also sharing data. But you don't hire an additional 80 people for additional content already planned to be in the game in the first place. It was also specifically stated to be "Smash Bros. 6." Obviously its not literally Smash 6, but an expansion pack or DLC would fit precisely into that line of thinking.

No, they already are doing this just fine with Mario Kart and it's very popular due to that alone. They don't need to update Smash anymore than it already is getting and they know it. It's already severely more popular than Mario Kart regardless of the DLC coming. You're severely overestimating what they "need" to do. They have a solid and finished product with a tiny list of complaints, and it ain't lack of characters. People are quite happy with it. Mario Kart 8, on the other hand, got some serious roster complaints, considering the fact that the roster is very easy to add to in comparison. People are going nuts over Diddy not being there, same with Bowser Jr. Most people are pretty happy with Smash's roster. The stages are getting far more complaints.

Where did I say they "needed" to do anything? Its not a matter of "needing" to do something. Its Smash Bros. They don't "NEED" to know Smash DLC will sell, they already know it will. The fact that Mario Kart 8 is doing very well with DLC should be enough evidence to show that DLC for Smash would sell loads.

Yeah, and? It's still going to take that long to heavily balance and made new moves and him entirely from scratch. It's not like Mario who could be ported from Brawl. He's going to take all that time and they need it for him almost entirely. The few coworkers and time left can be spent gathering up the rest of the Miiverse phrases and any huge glitches that could come along that need a fix(like the Bowser Jr. one).

So explain why they hired an additional 80 developers to work on Smash Bros. in 2015 just to finish a few things that were supposed to be in the game in the first place? You keep your current developers on a bit longer to finish that, you don't hire additional people to do the work.

You can't give people tons of hours if you don't get the money/sales to do so. Sakurai and Nintendo are well aware of this. This still applies. And because Smash itself is already a highly solid and popular product, the chances of more than just Mewtwo and Miiverse entirely depend on their general download sales and popularity. They're not going to do it "just because" or "because it sounds like a good idea". They will do it if they're sure it'll pay out.

Its already received massive success. What more do they need? Wouldn't the fact that's its already an extremely solid and popular product make it even more likely they'd plan for additional content because they knew it was popular and they knew it would sell? Especially if it would expand the life cycle of the game?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

First of all, Miiverse isn't DLC, its a free patch. Its not just Miiverse but also sharing data. But you don't hire an additional 80 people for additional content already planned to be in the game in the first place. It was also specifically stated to be "Smash Bros. 6." Obviously its not literally Smash 6, but an expansion pack or DLC would fit precisely into that line of thinking.

This crap again? Patches are a form of DLC. Period. And yes, you do for patches if you think it's a good idea. How do we know he isn't cutting some of the other people to give them a break? You don't know that much.

Where did I say they "needed" to do anything? Its not a matter of "needing" to do something. Its Smash Bros. They don't "NEED" to know Smash DLC will sell, they already know it will. The fact that Mario Kart 8 is doing very well with DLC should be enough evidence to show that DLC for Smash would sell loads.

Bzzt. Wrong. They do not know it will for Smash. This isn't Mario Kart. This is Smash. They never did paid DLC for this game series before. The fact he actually said he is making sure it will go well and is testing it proves "they do not know". They clearly are admitting they aren't sure yet and are taking a chance.

So explain why they hired an additional 80 developers to work on Smash Bros. in 2015 just to finish a few things that were supposed to be in the game in the first place? You keep your current developers on a bit longer to finish that, you don't hire additional people to do the work.

To give the other people a freaking break. To let them go and do other things in their lives and have new people take over who aren't worked to the bone. There's more reasons than just adding numbers. It's a thing that happens.

Its already received massive success. What more do they need? Wouldn't the fact that's its already an extremely solid and popular product make it even more likely they'd plan for additional content because they knew it was popular and they knew it would sell? Especially if it would expand the life cycle of the game?

Paid Smash DLC has never received massive success. The only Smash DLC before ever made were the custom courses online by Nintendo during Brawl, and the various patches earlier. Also, I almost forgot Tournament Mode, yet another DLC they're working on for the Wii U version(and maybe will show up in the 3DS version, but I doubt it). They're already working on 4 things, although 3 specifically, and the 4th may be much needed balance patches if they show up. They don't need to keep all 200 there for balance patches anyway. A decent 80 could work too, with Sakurai still there, but doing less work. I mean, it's still his vision after all. Plus, it's very clear he's taking a break, although he never said he's leaving the team either(I don't know why people are assuming this. Not thinking it could be the case, but assuming it outright).

Just remember, anything you download online for a game, a patch, a mode, a character, a stage, an item, whatever, is straightout DLC. It means "Downloadable Content". Don't be confused with the term "patch" being used. It was always a form of DLC and never stopped being so. Paid DLC is what Mewtwo will be for those who don't get the deal. Miiverse is also coming in a DLC patch later. Also, he refers to it as DLC on the Smash website itself directly when talking about patches.

All Patches are DLC, something he needs people to create. There is nothing more planned as he said. If he did lie, so be it. But there is absolutely no reason to believe he is lying at this point. He has no reason to hide stuff. He already has to do a crapload of work to make a Mode and Character work smoothly. Only the Stage will be easy to do. At best. He'll need everyone he has.

I don't know why you keep assuming Smash will be hyper popular with DLC when we have zero proof the series was popular with DLC in the first place. Don't compare it to other game series. It's not the same thing. And never will be the same thing. Mario Kart did not get any major DLC(hell, it barely got any patches beforehand?) before MK8. They took a chance there, and were lucky. But right now, they have 200 people to pay. They don't have money to throw around. Just suddenly throwing it around when they cannot be sure without a doubt that it'll sell is just plain foolishness. They're too smart to take a gamble like that. What would happen if they were wrong and barely anyone after Mewtwo sold? If they released Wolf and Lucas right away, what would happen if only Mewtwo slightly sells and those two barely sell? That would go horribly. Sure, it's unlikely to happen, but for them, can they afford to take a major gamble of money spent on a project that might not pay off?

You cannot actually say it will sell well by comparing it to a series like Mario Kart. Let me remind you that because Smash is character driven, a lot of people believe all characters should be free while other stuff should be paid, because that's the "most important part" and they shouldn't have to pay for guys they believe should'be been there in the first place(a flawed reason, but it still exists). I remember an earlier topic created by Saito talking about Paid DLC characters. A ton of people were against it. That is outright proof that you cannot be sure of these things. Call it a vocal minority if you want, but how can anyone be sure that more people aren't against paid dlc characters in Smash? You don't actually know how many are willing to shell out money. Nintendo does not either. Sakurai does not either. This has never been done in a Nintendo-series Fighting Game. It's a whole new thing. Other Genres work, sure. But they are other Genres. While it may be true this works well for other Companies, they also have experience showing it worked for their games and had to test the waters too. And it wasn't met with 100% approval either way. No matter you slice it, it is a gamble right now. Doing one character and taking a gamble is smart. Since in order to get Mewtwo, you either have to have both versions and register(which thankfully can be done with two people, but it gets enough sales to easily pay people for their work), or you have to pay for him separately, unless a huge amount of people go for it, namely most of who purchased one or two games, they don't actually know.

Stop assuming the majority of fans will pay for Mewtwo. We don't know. Nobody does. It's a good chance, but you could also be wrong. It's fine to think it'll happen. But not guaranteed enough for Nintendo and Sakurai to start working on anyone else. Consider for a moment that they waited a long time to even start Mewtwo. They were already busy. Why take so long? Oh, right, to keep heavy concentration on him and him alone. So they have a solid and balanced character they have to make from scratch. To finish up the Mode and Stage. To add any necessary fixes to the game that may come up. They're already super busy, and have no time to plan for stuff that they aren't sure they even want to sell in the first place. We don't even know what Vets they would want to bring back. We could get no more beyond Mewtwo and only some new characters due to newer games to promote them. That's how little information we have, and something that could actually happen. There is nothing for them to go off of right now. They don't even know when StarFox Wii U is releasing just yet. Why would they redo Wolf a bit now? Would the new game sell well enough to justify it? There's too many factors to plan so much ahead. Likewise with Lucas. Would he be done just to appeal to some Smash gamers? Are they sure that many people cared about his cut? Do they even want to port/release the other Mother games to give him a good time to release as paid DLC to promote those? Are those going to matter? A lot more is in question than you think. There's a ton of factors that go into DLC. Mewtwo is a special exception because he was a massively popular character on his own and his cut during Brawl stung people by a huge degree. He also gained a huge amount of hype. Can they be sure most other vets beyond of course Snake would? Enough they'd instantly sell? Did they want Snake back? Did Konami and Nintendo have a fall out, which could be why he got cut in the first place?

It's a lot of questions, yes. But here's the thing; A good chunk of them or similar ones have to be taken into considered for Smash. Every character takes a severely high amount of work. Unlike Mario Kart, where it's a very tiny percentage of work needed. Every character in there has so much less. They just need a working model with some animations and a voice, and some good Kart/Bike options. It's easy. Courses are the biggest thing to make there, and only because they're very huge and long. They're the "characters" of Smash. It's practically the opposite work needed. That's why each pack contains 3 characters already. Sure, it has a lot of courses, but that's kind of important to the game. You race. You don't need tons of courses for Smash, you need unique and fun characters. Many people only choose a handful of courses, so it's not like you need to work on producing a lot for DLC itself. And even then, they don't take as long. A little longer now that they have to go with a type of Omega stage(as they're not actual carbon copies of Final Destiny. Some have no actual area below the stage and is one giant box).

 

[PSIBoy]

Are we really on the "a character cannot be made unique" argument? Pikmin could be made to individually do many different things.
However, in the point above, I must not be reading you correctly, because it appears to me you claim that Lucas and Ness are different enough, even though they work from the same base (and still play differently)- it is not too difficult to imagine how Alph easily could be, just alter properties further and allow for different types of smashes. They are incredibly easy to come up with, they can literally be anything.
Or go a completely different route and have the trio as a single character instead.
Or just make it Louie instead of Alph and you have Toon Link to Link situation.

Each one of Ness and Lucas's moves have different properties, even those few (specials and f-smash) with similar animations. I would barely consider them semi-clones. That was not my intentional interpretation, but rather a standard. If you can convince me that a moveset can be made using all the Pikmin in the game and still be Ness-Lucas unique, I will yield to your point. Which would mean only 5 moves can be similar, but they have to be different. But even so, if Sakurai doesn't see potential, he will not include another Pikmin character, whether for DLC or Smash games in a possible future, unless he fully intends to make a clone.

Sakurai has said he does not like to cut characters, and for that matter change them; this does not mean he doesn't do it. Refer to the previous games, we have a number of cut characters. The damage is done at this point.

All the more likely they will be for DLC. He hates cutting characters, but he, I, and most of the people on this website understand the need for it. It would be the perfect time to please some fans of those characters by including them back in the game.

Sakurai developed one game for Kid Icarus, and in doing so is leaving the series open for someone else to take over. He is not declaring the series dead, he is saying that as far as he knows, he will not be working on a future game.
Needless to say, he also never planned on doing Smash Bros Brawl, or Smash 4, and is saying the same about probably not doing a future Smash installment again. Even more, he did not create Kid Icarus, and someone else can take over for it. Additionally, it's only two years out from release, is still heavily on many minds, and further yet, is his baby.

However, the biggest difference is that, it is not dead. Unlike Mother, wherein the creator itself officially said there will not be a Mother 4. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/123642-Earthbound-Creator-Says-New-Sequel-is-Impossible
This is not a single developer saying he will not develop another game, this is the creator saying, "no."

Another director could theoretically take over and override the previous director's decision, no? And that argument could be used for Brawl Lucas: only in to advertise Mother 3 when he was revealed and continue to be in due to begin fresh in people's minds as well. I dunno about Ness. Maybe O12, but I doubt it was a big of a deal as it is now.

How would returning veterans feel like withheld content?
Sakurai's statement alluded to fan reaction to DLC by other companies in the past, that among other obstacles of fan service, part of the difficulty was that fans felt like part of the game was held back from the disc (or locked) to only be released later as paid content.
If it is content we got for free in other installments, or as part of the disc, it certainly would feel more like it was being withheld to me, than entirely original content I have not seen before. I don't believe Sakurai held anything back, of course, but if he is worried this is the case, then simply releasing the cut veterans as DLC would certainly read as characters he saved to make the game feel as though it had the complete roster it would have otherwise had, rather than new characters he decided to embark on.

I still don't get it. Why would any informed person who keeps up on this stuff feel that vets are withheld content. Oh wait, the uninformed might...

Again, these are all your opinions. I hope you can see that they are not facts.
Some facts. Pokemon is much more than even a video game, it is an intercultural, legitimate economic study defined as phenomena.
*see "Pikachu's Global Adventure: The Rise and Fall of Pokemon" for a fascinating look into the start of what I'm referring to if you are so inclined.* Pokemon is at least 4 main Video game series with a handful of other spinoffs (Main RPG, Mystery Dungeon, Ranger, Stadium, Pinball, Coliseum, Trozei, Puzzle League, Snap, Rumble, Channel--); it is one of the longest running cartoons still on tv, it has had nearly 20 movies to go with it, a wildly popular trading card game which individuals compete on high levels (as they do with the main game as well), figurines, plush, more merchandise than you can possibly comprehend in every category from clothing to shampoo to cereal to tissues.... to pair this recognition with the success the series has had, in its ability to market to nearly any demographic, particularly when it first launched- is why it was such a revolution in through 2001, and still a hold stay today.
I don't think Mother should be barred of all representation- but I think that an officially completed, almost fully localized, nearly decade old series of only 3 games... has more than enough representation in having one character. Those last points are all facts. You can believe Mother is under represented, but I believe that for a series 1/50th the size of Pokemon's empire, it is lucky to get anything at all- so many other series (Advance Wars, Golden Sun, etc) do not.

I'm getting disturbed by the fact that these video games are getting so deeply ingrained in our culture...

You have to admit, in 64 Earthbound was only a few years old and did well in Japan. And we know that Sakurai cares more about the Japanese fanbase for the most part, and I could see why.

I don't know what you read to spur... any of this response, but I never claimed any series should have 70 percent of the roster.
My big issue with Pokemon is not it having only 6 characters, it is which six they chose, which are haphazard and, as a whole, do not represent the series. Pokemon is not an eclectic series of spontaneous monsters- or at least, it is far more than that. As I mentioned once before, Sakurai added Robin and made a claim that he fit perfectly, because now the essence of Fire Emblem was finally in Smash Bros.
With the current selection of Pokemon, the essence of Pokemon is not in the game. It is difficult to represent such a varying title in just a few characters, but there is so much to the world of pokemon, that all of the characters just being mere pokemon, standing alone, does not work. There is no synergy between the chosen characters, and it does not portray the series.


For a series with perhaps 1/10th of the number of viable characters, 1/50 of the actual content in games, 1/80th of the number of fans, 1/500 of the amount of revenue? I don't think so. For your sake, as well as on a logical level as very few of Nintendo's IPs actually compare to the couple of monolithic titles at their forefront, I think the comparison to Pokemon is a poor one to make.


This is such utter nonsense I don't even know what to do with it anymore. The arbitrary confines which merely are descriptors of both Squirtle and Greninja, without being at what they stand for.
Surely, if this is the quota, then Link alone must fill the quota for "link's" in a game, or Mario for "mario's", but still we have the Doctor and Toon Link in the game. What about a Ninja? We have too of those. Blue haired fire emblem swordsman? Hello Marth, Ike, and Lucina. How about Anthropomorphic Space Pilot, Fox and Falco, or Psychic little boys from Mother?
The only possible way that Greninja could even stand in as a water starter, is if there were a third starter, a grass starter, in place. Without such, both he and Charizard both just happen to be starting Pokemon, who were chosen for popularity and perceived popularity.


Young Link is Toon Link, they are quite literally the same character in different art styles. Zelda and Link were updated from their Ocarina of Time look to their Twilight Princess look. Young Link was updated from his OoT look to his Windwaker design. It is the exact same character, it has nothing to do with roles. For an accurate parallelism of roles, refer above.


If the terms veteran and new character are opposites in this case, which is, I suppose, for an individual to decide, I will merely state- Sakurai referred to Mewtwo as a new character.
Perhaps he is getting such an overhaul that the return of the Intellectual Property was not enough to justify calling him a veteran.


I disagree on most of these fronts. You may want to see series well represented, but again, I claim, I do too. I just don't by any means think all series are created equal. No, not at all. I think nearly any character could have viable options as a fighter, and we have seen this time and time again, to the point that it's almost a silly response to read.

All that said, we are more and more veering off the point of discussing DLC. Please PM me if you feel the desire to discuss this further.

Fair enough.

I didn't see this until the very end if typing my response. *facepalm* Yeah, I'll drop it. Hopefully some of my DLC comments aren't too off course...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'd just like to note that you have it a bit off on the Link thing. Young Link filled a different quota from Adult Link. There's two sets of games, starring an older and younger version. Sakurai feels both are notable and are separate quotas. Also, Toon Link is an entirely separate person from Young Link, not just a simply remake of him. They're different people. They only share the same role, but that's all they have in common.

The thing is, for Pokemon, showing off the various Types is something he does concentrate on and it is shown off. That's why each Pokemon Stadium is based more towards the Anime, having Fields based upon Types. It's why most of the Pokemon chosen for playable had rather unique Types, to show them off. Squirtle/Greninja and Pikachu/Pichu are the only over repeated types that were directly playable. I am not counting movesets, but Greninja shows off almost no Darkness, while Mewtwo does, if you want to go there. Mewtwo also technically shows off Ghost with Shadow Ball in the same sense. In a way, Squirtle and Greninja both do fill the same quota, Water Starters. You can argue it's not the case here, but we can't say that for sure either. If Types had no relevance, why are the Pokemon Stadium stages completely based around that? There'd be no point. But they are. They do have some relevance. And it is true that Squirtle/Ivysaur/Charizard's key focus was their type differences. It's not emphasized for Charizard now that they removed that specific weakness of his(no pun intended. It was also a very dumb idea that really hurt PT's viability). However, Squirtle may not return just because of his Water Starter status and Sakurai would feel it's covered fine. We can't actually say that both of those don't share that same role. We don't really know if that's Sakurai's view on it. He's never actually said it was not the case, nor even implied it. He could, he could not.

Also, your quotes are formatted pretty off. >_<

 

[Deleted member]

So explain why they hired an additional 80 developers to work on Smash Bros. in 2015 just to finish a few things that were supposed to be in the game in the first place? You keep your current developers on a bit longer to finish that, you don't hire additional people to do the work.

Its already received massive success. What more do they need? Wouldn't the fact that's its already an extremely solid and popular product make it even more likely they'd plan for additional content because they knew it was popular and they knew it would sell? Especially if it would expand the life cycle of the game?

Assuming the hiring is all accurate, that does seem to be a good indication of more DLC beyond what we know. Despite Smash being very much Sakurai's baby, I'd like to think that by this point Nintendo has more than once exercised a little authority over the game. Amiibo, for instance, came from Nintendo's management, not Sakurai's. So I do agree with JaidynReiman that looking at how we've gotten great DLC with both Mario Kart 8 and Hyrule Warriors on the Wii U recently, Nintendo--more than Sakurai--will probably make DLC a thing with Smash 4. At least I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Assuming the hiring is all accurate, that does seem to be a good indication of more DLC beyond what we know. Despite Smash being very much Sakurai's baby, I'd like to think that by this point Nintendo has more than once exercised a little authority over the game. Amiibo, for instance, came from Nintendo's management, not Sakurai's. So I do agree with JaidynReiman that looking at how we've gotten great DLC with both Mario Kart 8 and Hyrule Warriors on the Wii U recently, Nintendo--more than Sakurai--will probably make DLC a thing with Smash 4. At least I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.

The thing is they don't actually have proof Smash DLC will sell just yet. That's why it's very unlikely they have plans beyond Mewtwo right now. There's no reason to work on stuff that they can't guarantee sales of. Very likely, Mewtwo will sell well, and they can start in Summer(when he fully goes on sale by then) assuming they think it's worth putting money into.

Again, those are not apt comparisons. Nintendo did not even create Hyrule Warriors. This is more Tecmo's thing. A specific subsetting of Nintendo created Mario Kart. I doubt it's something specific to their normal game makers. They aren't the same actual people. I think people may be acting like Nintendo's normal developers want this, or even Miyamoto. They're all different people who made these decisions. I don't doubt that more DLC is likely to happen. As I said before, it probably will. But it's unlikely anything but Tournament Mode, Miiverse Stage, and Mewtwo are being worked on right now. If mainly because they all take quite a bit of time combined and the sole fact that Sakurai outright told us this. I don't believe it's a PR statement. Why lie? It doesn't serve a purpose. He even originally said "nothing was planned at this time nor being worked on", but he clearly couldn't have meant the stuff he mentioned earlier, but then we found out he didn't start Mewtwo till after that particular statement. While he had nothing new planned, he clearly wasn't working on anything besides balance patches at best. And so far, his interviews match exactly what he said. I don't honestly expect more than those 3 things and balance patches even announced till during Summer. Unless of course, the sales for Mewtwo(that is, via Club Nintendo) are so significantly high that he actually thinks bringing in more DLC will absolutely be profitable. But he'd still be taking a gamble since Paid DLC was not released just yet, and he could be wrong on how often people would pay for the actual characters. Remember, this isn't Mario Kart or Hyrule Warriors. HW is more or less a single player game, so getting more characters is just for fun but doesn't affect anyone else. MK doesn't matter who you play as outside of the weight differences for the most part. The karts/bikes and courses are the focus of that series. Smash is weird in this regard. For some reason(some I forgot, I admit), people don't want to pay to play as characters. I know some are of the mindset "They should've just been in there in the first place." I cannot remember any other reason. Of course, this reason only goes so far too. Take a new Zelda Villain that shows up 3 years from now. How could they be in beforehand? It's a flawed reasoning due to this type of thing that comes up. Never mind development time can't be spent on them. I can understand veterans sometimes being free. If they were but mid-development, a cheaper cost/free is a little more reasonable. But anybody completely new or made from scratch and is a veteran? Come on, way more time and money was put into this. They were not part of the product you already paid for. Paying for new content is not unjustified.

Sorry for the wall of text, but they were notable points to bring up. I think the bigger issue is that HW and MK8 are very different in how DLC is handled and the games are not character-focused specifically either. HW is clearly more, but there's more to it than characters. Weapons are just as important, as it can change a current character. It's like a downloadable moveset for someone. Because both games are widely different from Smash, and Smash's only previous notable DLC was custom stages, they can't just auto-predict DLC characters will sell. They cannot be sure of that because it's a new idea in general for Smash. So testing the waters first to make sure the idea goes well is all they need to do. I think it's generally considered that it'll go well, but we nor they know that for sure, so anything could happen. Sure, it'll probably be a case of "I told you so" from other people's ends. But hey, Sakurai doesn't know that, now does he? Thus, he's waiting and seeing.

 

[pupNapoleon]

He has given zero words to say he's going to leave after Mewtwo is done. He may or may not stay. So yes, he very well could be part of the process. He has never actually suggested he won't be.


And yet he outright told us DLC is being tested first because he doesn't want to throw it at us without seeing what the SSB players are interested in. It already is getting DLC. That's covered. It doesn't matter how much more it can get. Doesn't mean it will get more than this.


Doesn't actually in any way mean anything other than Miiverse and Mewtwo are being worked on. And he told us already that he is sure issues could come up against that could require additional balance patches. That alone could be their purpose, and finishing up Mewtwo in a very fast and timely manner. Seems to me like they already are serving their purpose outright.


No, they already are doing this just fine with Mario Kart and it's very popular due to that alone. They don't need to update Smash anymore than it already is getting and they know it. It's already severely more popular than Mario Kart regardless of the DLC coming. You're severely overestimating what they "need" to do. They have a solid and finished product with a tiny list of complaints, and it ain't lack of characters. People are quite happy with it. Mario Kart 8, on the other hand, got some serious roster complaints, considering the fact that the roster is very easy to add to in comparison. People are going nuts over Diddy not being there, same with Bowser Jr. Most people are pretty happy with Smash's roster. The stages are getting far more complaints.


Yeah, and? It's still going to take that long to heavily balance and made new moves and him entirely from scratch. It's not like Mario who could be ported from Brawl. He's going to take all that time and they need it for him almost entirely. The few coworkers and time left can be spent gathering up the rest of the Miiverse phrases and any huge glitches that could come along that need a fix(like the Bowser Jr. one).


It already is a thing. It's already happening. Why on earth are you acting like it will be more than Mewtwo and Miiverse? That's not guaranteed and never was. We were damn sure we'd get some DLC in general due to this, and that wasn't guaranteed either. Just because a coding exists for something doesn't mean it will be used.

It could very well end at Mewtwo and Miiverse. It's only going to easily continue if Mewtwo goes highly well enough to justify paying people for more DLC that they are sure will sell. Nintendo isn't going to force DLC if the sales were abysmal for Mewtwo. That'd just be a waste of money. It's bad business practice. They, just like Sakurai, are a business. They need to be sure any work they have them do will be paid for. They can't make them work without pay, and they can't get pay if the DLC won't sell. This is basic knowledge, even.

You can't give people tons of hours if you don't get the money/sales to do so. Sakurai and Nintendo are well aware of this. This still applies. And because Smash itself is already a highly solid and popular product, the chances of more than just Mewtwo and Miiverse entirely depend on their general download sales and popularity. They're not going to do it "just because" or "because it sounds like a good idea". They will do it if they're sure it'll pay out. This is the same reason many games don't get ported or put on the VC. They can't be sure it's worth it and won't think they'll sell. They could be wrong, but can they afford to take that chance? Nope. They're a business first and foremost, and they have to use their head first, not just fan demand that they can't even be sure exists. Yes, I'm sure if they get enough fan demand for someone, they may put them out there(say, Wolf for instance). If he gets massively downloaded, they could start charging for it and hope they actually pay often enough. You know, give a short trial of free, and gain cash to pay their workers. Why do you think Hyrule Warriors and Mario Kart DLC beyond balance patches actually cost money? Because they gotta pay the coworkers. And unlike those games, Smash is a fighting game, and fighting games are very controversial when you add characters. Also, if you take an actual look around many forums, many say they refuse to pay for characters, but will for anything else. Some are the opposite. If they go on reading this stuff, then they also cannot be sure it's an idea worth going for. So, they gotta test it first.

I'm absolutely sure there is no current DLC plans beyond Miiverse and Mewtwo, and any much needed patch that could come along the way. Why? Because they can't afford to do that right now until after they are sure that stuff will sell. Mewtwo is the test. Until the score is high, they'd be taking a gamble. And companies can't afford to gamble when the economies are horrible either.

The points you make here seem to be in somewhat... polarity.
The Mario Kart roster was heavily criticized, particularly the lack of Diddy and Bowser Junior, and that is why they added DLC? The DLC for Mario Kart never added those characters, and in fact, the characters it added are three more variations of ones already in the game, making it in part even more controversial. This is to even claim that the Smash roster is not controversial in the first place, which I heavily beg to differ- the chosen additions in Smash 4 can most certainly be seen as controversial, particularly to long term Nintendo fans, considering majority of the additions are not all that historic of characters.

What we can additionally go off of for DLC with Nintendo is precedent, and the precedent that they have set up is massive DLC for every game it has been released for. Starting with Super Mario Wii U in which Luigi U added an entirely new twist on every single level in the game, the DLC options we've gotten from Nintendo since have been nothing short of monumental. Mario Kart was available in large chunks, with preorder bonuses offering a discount to purchase 50% additions to the courses if you did so at the same time. The Hyrule Warriors DLC offered similar incentive, with perhaps a hundred hours of additional gameplay between the maps and other adventures they offer.

Super Smash Brothers is the devoted fan game Nintendo has- perhaps not the most widespread, but quite possibly. It had two installments with nearly two full years of daily updates between them, tournaments out before the game was even released, helped launch the extremely popular amiibo line (which cannot be kept to demand), and single-handedly won E3 for Nintendo in 2014.
I don't think there could be any sincere question of 'will the DLC sell?' It is always a risk, and it is less of a risk in this game than it has been with any other game they've had, because the fan base is more loyal, and it is still a number one seller. The risk is much higher to lose out on the opportunity to make the content, or even more, for hackers to make it first.

Similarly, the reason they would make more of it at once, is for cost efficiency. It would be highly illogical for Mewtwo to be the sole character being worked on at this time. Firstly, because of he is successful, then there would be another large gap before we receive more characters. Secondly, because working on more than one at once saves money, particularly if it is such a large team; not just to keep from calling everyone back after they see if Mewtwo is successful, but through the duration of actual development, to have more than one task at hand. It may be a 'gamble' as to if DLC would sell, but it is not a very big one at that. The bigger gamble would be to waste money by not developing all of the content when the team is already assembled.

 

[d00derino]

Aside from Mewtwo I'd settle for some small things, like actually having Peach's Daisy outfit be named Daisy (with announcer) and Lucas added as a Ness alt. I'm not greedy

 

[PSIBoy]

Aside from Mewtwo I'd settle for some small things, like actually having Peach's Daisy outfit be named Daisy (with announcer) and Lucas added as a Ness alt. I'm not greedy

Having Lucas as a Ness alt would however upset those who mained Lucas in Brawl, since outside of size and speed, Ness and Lucas have only 5 moves with similar properties, but still very different. Daisy as an alt may also upset Daisy fans since they would not think that Daisy as a Peach alt would not represent her personality fairly, not that she apparently has much personality outside being a tomboy. Not criticizing you, but just explaining the POVs of many fans of those characters.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Having Lucas as a Ness alt would however upset those who mained Lucas in Brawl, since outside of size and speed, Ness and Lucas have only 5 moves with similar properties, but still very different. Daisy as an alt may also upset Daisy fans since they would not think that Daisy as a Peach alt would not represent her personality fairly, not that she apparently has much personality outside being a tomboy. Not criticizing you, but just explaining the POVs of many fans of those characters.

I don't really understand this philosophy; we have not seen Daisy do anything, how would the move set not represent her personality?
I've read the arguments about the Rainbow's, Toad's and Floating. I suppose the visual cues would have to change for the rainbows--- but that's legitimately it. She could easily pull a Toad, and as far as we know she can float.

 

[PSIBoy]

I don't really understand this philosophy; we have not seen Daisy do anything, how would the move set not represent her personality?
I've read the arguments about the Rainbow's, Toad's and Floating. I suppose the visual cues would have to change for the rainbows--- but that's legitimately it. She could easily pull a Toad, and as far as we know she can float.

We have seen her in the spin-offs and she could have a sports related moveset. But I would think that most of her fans would want a more...wild type of fighting style as opposed to Peach's style. While I will concede that she doesn't have much personality or the fact that she can pull Toads, turnips, and float for all we know, we also know that there is so much other source material that Sakurai can pull out for a unique fighting style. Granted, I could care less about Daisy being an alt or a character, but her fans do.

 

[d00derino]

Having Lucas as a Ness alt would however upset those who mained Lucas in Brawl, since outside of size and speed, Ness and Lucas have only 5 moves with similar properties, but still very different. Daisy as an alt may also upset Daisy fans since they would not think that Daisy as a Peach alt would not represent her personality fairly, not that she apparently has much personality outside being a tomboy. Not criticizing you, but just explaining the POVs of many fans of those characters.

I get where you're coming from -- especially with Lucas. I never really used him so I didn't realize he was less of a clone. But, I'd be totally happy with those little changes. At least give Daisy her damn name. Smallest DLC ever.

I don't really understand this philosophy; we have not seen Daisy do anything, how would the move set not represent her personality?
I've read the arguments about the Rainbow's, Toad's and Floating. I suppose the visual cues would have to change for the rainbows--- but that's legitimately it. She could easily pull a Toad, and as far as we know she can float.

Well, you can use the Koopa Kids and Olimar/Alph as a justifiable reason to just plop in a soundbite and a quick name change.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The points you make here seem to be in somewhat... polarity.
The Mario Kart roster was heavily criticized, particularly the lack of Diddy and Bowser Junior, and that is why they added DLC? The DLC for Mario Kart never added those characters, and in fact, the characters it added are three more variations of ones already in the game, making it in part even more controversial. This is to even claim that the Smash roster is not controversial in the first place, which I heavily beg to differ- the chosen additions in Smash 4 can most certainly be seen as controversial, particularly to long term Nintendo fans, considering majority of the additions are not all that historic of characters.

And that's why each one had much more than quick clones or had actual more notable characters. Dry Bowser, Villager, Isabella, and Link were all met with praise. Only one of them was a vet. Yes, it's pretty clear they did DLC to please more people and gain money, and it works.

What we can additionally go off of for DLC with Nintendo is precedent, and the precedent that they have set up is massive DLC for every game it has been released for. Starting with Super Mario Wii U in which Luigi U added an entirely new twist on every single level in the game, the DLC options we've gotten from Nintendo since have been nothing short of monumental. Mario Kart was available in large chunks, with preorder bonuses offering a discount to purchase 50% additions to the courses if you did so at the same time. The Hyrule Warriors DLC offered similar incentive, with perhaps a hundred hours of additional gameplay between the maps and other adventures they offer.

No, we can't. Because they never did it for a fighting game before. Again, these are all different Companies doing this. I don't know why that point is lost here. Nintendo only did it themselves twice(Fire Emblem and Super Mario. Kart is done by an entirely different set of people, who has their own ideals of what should work. Fire Emblem meanwhile got tons of notable characters. Kart got half "clones" and 3 new ones. It's pretty clearly not done the same way).

Super Smash Brothers is the devoted fan game Nintendo has- perhaps not the most widespread, but quite possibly. It had two installments with nearly two full years of daily updates between them, tournaments out before the game was even released, helped launch the extremely popular amiibo line (which cannot be kept to demand), and single-handedly won E3 for Nintendo in 2014.
I don't think there could be any sincere question of 'will the DLC sell?' It is always a risk, and it is less of a risk in this game than it has been with any other game they've had, because the fan base is more loyal, and it is still a number one seller. The risk is much higher to lose out on the opportunity to make the content, or even more, for hackers to make it first.

Then why did Sakurai outright say he wanted to test it and not make tons of content right away or even work on it? It is a risk. He does not know if it will sell. It's not one he can afford to take. That's paying 200 people. He has to be sure it will sell.

Similarly, the reason they would make more of it at once, is for cost efficiency. It would be highly illogical for Mewtwo to be the sole character being worked on at this time. Firstly, because of he is successful, then there would be another large gap before we receive more characters. Secondly, because working on more than one at once saves money, particularly if it is such a large team; not just to keep from calling everyone back after they see if Mewtwo is successful, but through the duration of actual development, to have more than one task at hand. It may be a 'gamble' as to if DLC would sell, but it is not a very big one at that. The bigger gamble would be to waste money by not developing all of the content when the team is already assembled.

All the money is already being spent on Mewtwo and Tournament Mode. You know, just like he actually said? And it's a huge gamble to take in the long run. Every series so far(except perhaps Fire Emblem and regular Super Mario games, not Mario Kart or Hyrule Warriors, done by entirely different people, meaning entirely different decisions on how to handle DLC and isn't comparable) are all different Genres and do not indicate how it'll work for Smash. There is absolutely no proof he will sell well. The only time Mewtwo has been some form of DLC anywhere is free on Pokemon games. He's never been sold before. This is beyond new. They already have their hands tied with all the stuff being done is a super short notice, and fixing up any small issues that come along the way glitch-wise in the current copy. And if those balance changes are made, Mewtwo has to be taken into account with them. It's severely more work than people give it credit for. There is nothing else being worked on and they don't have the time or money to do so.

It's highly likely he was outright telling it to us straight. And when nothing else is started till way later(the most likely outcome), beyond necessary balance patches to fix glitches(which sets back Mewtwo every time it's done, and it also means they could be changing any other character at the time to make sure it works, so it's not a quick process like you're making it out to be, and the fact Bowser Jr. has a major glitch right now means we're probably getting it before the big cat's release anyway), well, then what? I don't accept the idea he's actually only working on what he said he would as illogical. There's very strong logic towards it, one he outright said. This isn't even some mystery. Smash is not like other games. People have been surprisingly stingy towards paid DLC related to it, yet not with other games. But even then, that's not entirely true. Tons of people still hate Paid DLC. One thing Sakurai made clear is he didn't cut anyone for Paid DLC later. One of the things people freaking hate. It does not make them automatically okay with paying for it. Nobody knows. And that's the stance he clearly has taken on this issue. It was never changed, and it's beyond logical. He's already swamped with stuff and has no time to work on things nor the money for stuff he's isn't guaranteed a ton of sales on. The main reason why Mewtwo is easier to give to us is that people already don't have to spend extra money due to the Club Nintendo combo. Thus, he has to see if people with directly pay for it later. And a majority too. You say it's not a big gamble, but since when has the other games done this exact kind of deal or attempted to test the waters first? They luckily went well. Stop assuming Smash will go equally well. He's not, and he's beyond smart for doing so. It's far more of a waste to work on something that could sell too low to actually get the money back. This may be why we could only see Wolf back unless another Mother game comes out. He may not even find it worth it to make any character beyond Mewtwo. This is already a remote possibility, one he even to the stance on.

And no, we don't know if his entire 200 man crew will stay. We don't know if Sakurai will stay. We don't know enough to say any of that. All of that is being played out still. He's going to finish what he said he was working on, and things will go on from there. He already said he's taking a break after Mewtwo, which likely will be in Spring(and lord knows he needs it. Plus, any random major issues his newly hired team can work on while the rest take a bit of a break too. They already told us what's going on. The only thing we don't know is if part of his team is taking a break too, but the rest was told straight to our faces). All he has to do is see what happens with the DLC, and make a decision right after. He's the one in charge of it, not Nintendo. This was never their decision. Sakurai intended it to be available to allow DLC, and he already is doing just that, meaning that any more DLC is not needed to fill the point of having that programming in. It was never unused. Whether or not it's underutilized is up to him, not you or anyone else.

 

[3D Dillon]

I predict there'll be a lot of continuous popular demand at the release of the first Smash DLC then the Sakurai might change his mind.

 

[pupNapoleon]

And that's why each one had much more than quick clones or had actual more notable characters. Dry Bowser, Villager, Isabella, and Link were all met with praise. Only one of them was a vet. Yes, it's pretty clear they did DLC to please more people and gain money, and it works.


No, we can't. Because they never did it for a fighting game before. Again, these are all different Companies doing this. I don't know why that point is lost here. Nintendo only did it themselves twice(Fire Emblem and Super Mario. Kart is done by an entirely different set of people, who has their own ideals of what should work. Fire Emblem meanwhile got tons of notable characters. Kart got half "clones" and 3 new ones. It's pretty clearly not done the same way).


Then why did Sakurai outright say he wanted to test it and not make tons of content right away or even work on it? It is a risk. He does not know if it will sell. It's not one he can afford to take. That's paying 200 people. He has to be sure it will sell.


All the money is already being spent on Mewtwo and Tournament Mode. You know, just like he actually said? And it's a huge gamble to take in the long run. Every series so far(except perhaps Fire Emblem and regular Super Mario games, not Mario Kart or Hyrule Warriors, done by entirely different people, meaning entirely different decisions on how to handle DLC and isn't comparable) are all different Genres and do not indicate how it'll work for Smash. There is absolutely no proof he will sell well. The only time Mewtwo has been some form of DLC anywhere is free on Pokemon games. He's never been sold before. This is beyond new. They already have their hands tied with all the stuff being done is a super short notice, and fixing up any small issues that come along the way glitch-wise in the current copy. And if those balance changes are made, Mewtwo has to be taken into account with them. It's severely more work than people give it credit for. There is nothing else being worked on and they don't have the time or money to do so.

It's highly likely he was outright telling it to us straight. And when nothing else is started till way later(the most likely outcome), beyond necessary balance patches to fix glitches(which sets back Mewtwo every time it's done, and it also means they could be changing any other character at the time to make sure it works, so it's not a quick process like you're making it out to be, and the fact Bowser Jr. has a major glitch right now means we're probably getting it before the big cat's release anyway), well, then what? I don't accept the idea he's actually only working on what he said he would as illogical. There's very strong logic towards it, one he outright said. This isn't even some mystery. Smash is not like other games. People have been surprisingly stingy towards paid DLC related to it, yet not with other games. But even then, that's not entirely true. Tons of people still hate Paid DLC. One thing Sakurai made clear is he didn't cut anyone for Paid DLC later. One of the things people freaking hate. It does not make them automatically okay with paying for it. Nobody knows. And that's the stance he clearly has taken on this issue. It was never changed, and it's beyond logical. He's already swamped with stuff and has no time to work on things nor the money for stuff he's isn't guaranteed a ton of sales on. The main reason why Mewtwo is easier to give to us is that people already don't have to spend extra money due to the Club Nintendo combo. Thus, he has to see if people with directly pay for it later. And a majority too. You say it's not a big gamble, but since when has the other games done this exact kind of deal or attempted to test the waters first? They luckily went well. Stop assuming Smash will go equally well. He's not, and he's beyond smart for doing so. It's far more of a waste to work on something that could sell too low to actually get the money back. This may be why we could only see Wolf back unless another Mother game comes out. He may not even find it worth it to make any character beyond Mewtwo. This is already a remote possibility, one he even to the stance on.

And no, we don't know if his entire 200 man crew will stay. We don't know if Sakurai will stay. We don't know enough to say any of that. All of that is being played out still. He's going to finish what he said he was working on, and things will go on from there. He already said he's taking a break after Mewtwo, which likely will be in Spring(and lord knows he needs it. Plus, any random major issues his newly hired team can work on while the rest take a bit of a break too. They already told us what's going on. The only thing we don't know is if part of his team is taking a break too, but the rest was told straight to our faces). All he has to do is see what happens with the DLC, and make a decision right after. He's the one in charge of it, not Nintendo. This was never their decision. Sakurai intended it to be available to allow DLC, and he already is doing just that, meaning that any more DLC is not needed to fill the point of having that programming in. It was never unused. Whether or not it's underutilized is up to him, not you or anyone else.

You are welcome to believe as you wish, but I chose to have faith in the precedent of the industry and arithmetic of economic risk.
Of course we can not "know" what will happen with future Downloadable Content; all business endeavors are a risk, and the goal is to make the payoff higher reward than the stakes.
In all cases of DLC, it could be stated that it was initially new. "Never by Nintendo," or "never for Mario." It was "never this, never that, never before something or another." We can continue to pinpoint the differences but ultimately, the fact that it is a fighting game is ultimately not all that affecting in this matter, except in the reverse recourse that fighting games in this era are expected to have DLC.

What Smash Bros does have is an incredibly high sales margin, exceptionally loyal fans, and customers screaming for more content. Of course we cannot foresee the future, it is impossible. Therefore, we use the clues we do have in order to gauge the likelihood of DLC, as far as a business transaction. We use Nintendo product precedence, we use the precedent of other games in the fighting genre, and we use the facts stated in the beginning of this paragraph.

The idea that "people would not pay for it," because some said so on a forum, before the game was even released, is about as legitimate and affecting to sales as those who would have boycotting the game because so and so was cut- the result is nearly nil. Of course, there is always the risk that people would not pay for it, in any game, but that certainly is not because, as you said yourself, they posted it on the internet due to a misconception that it would mean they are hitting a paywall.

While Sakurai has an entire team assembled, it would be a waste of time and resources to not be working on multiple characters at once. Perhaps patches take more work than I understand, absolutely- but an 80 man team to work on a stage, a seemingly simple mode, and one character, for four months, after the game only took two years, is incredibly baffling. This is assuming the original team completely took off. Instead, it is more probable that the team has other points they are working on as well, so that the content can keep on rolling, and be announced during Nintendo's slower seasons to keep generating hype. A full character team working on a single character is foolhardy. Think of an assembly line, it is much more efficient than one man doing everything, and that is how it saves money.

Sakurai may claim that Mewtwo is "testing the water," but the truth is that it cannot even possibly do that. We don't know when Mewtwo will be available for purchase separate from those who purchased both games, and those who purchased both games cannot be truly taken into consideration as those who would have purchased the character as DLC as it is merely a bonus, and in no way a showing of direct causation.
Particularly to your claim above, that some people in theory would not purchase Mewtwo or any character, they may have just happened to have bought both versions, and are getting Mewtwo as a consolation prize. Of course still, all people who get Mewtwo for free cannot be discounted for the sale, because many would likely have purchased him if given the chance.
The only possibility is that he is being used to gauge fan reaction- and given he current outcry for DLC and more content, that would be not only redundant, but begrudgingly unnecessary.
Wherein this demonstration that Mewtwo cannot possibly dictate how successful DLC would be, one can only be drawn to the notion that yes, Sakurai was in fact just speaking from a PR perspective.

 

[3D Dillon]

We'll just wait until the future.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

We do know when Mewtwo will be available, in Summer. We know he's not paid for right away. Yes, he is "testing the waters". That's his purpose. Patterns in industry does not change this. We know what the facts are, and it's not some fact that more characters ware being worked on. That's some theory that Sakurai outright said is not the case. And frankly, he is the guy in charge, not some fans. So no, I do not believe for one second more characters are planned at all. Of course I could be wrong, but I choose to believe the guy working on said characters over some fan theories because he at least is way more trustworthy in comparison. He has an actual reputation here. Some random fans do not.

You might as well let it go. You're complete unconvincing and we might as well agree to disagree. I do believe his word, and he actually has authority here. Call it appeal to authority if you want. But at least I'm believing the developers over theories, which is way more accurate anyway. He has no reason to lie about this. It accomplishes nothing. He does barely lie, and the last lie he made was a silly joke about ZSS. Not a grand lie by any means. It was entertainment at best. The closest thing he ever did to lying was not give as much good information so people took it out of context. And that's an issue with lack of information, not actual lying.

Likewise, why is so it so hard to believe that Sakurai is actually telling us exactly his plans? There is nothing unbelievable about this. We already know his earlier team worked their butts off. As I said before, why wouldn't have have them take a bit of a break after Mewtwo's release, or before? He's got 80 members to work on any issues that come up, after all. Why can you seriously not accept this might actually be true? That he actually meant what he said? There is nothing unbelievable about this. The fact is, your theory is called out and not supported at all by Nintendo or Sakurai's actions towards Smash 4. Thus, there's no reason to believe what he said was false. There is no reason to believe he is definitely working on more stuff. It's of course possible, but it's not supported at all regardless, and thus, is unlikely by that alone. Other games are not proof of support. The only DLC he continued to give us were balance patches and that was it. In Brawl, it was stages. The only actual DLC was know he has made multiple of past release and we have precedence for is stages. Not characters. That's entirely too new and no other game series counts as an example of some precedence. This is SSB, its own series. There's only precedence in its patterns at best, and even those can be wrong. We have nothing legitimately concrete to go off of. I think the fact you're ignoring that regular Nintendo did not decide on DLC for every game and it was all driven by the specific developers is ridiculous. No, Nintendo(their main branch) did not have a hand in Hyrule Warriors or Mario Kart. If they did, please cite where they do, but as of now, it makes more logical sense that the developers decide to make more characters for their game. Just like Sakurai's team is officially doing. Do you have any actual evidence to show "Nintendo", not Nintendo EAD, not Tecmo Koei, decided HW and MK8 should get DLC? Did they actually have a hand in it? Because you're clearly assuming they do, and I don't have any reason to believe that stance over the actual game creators deciding this, you know, who make each bit of DLC, instead. You can always cite it, otherwise, your entire point is heavily compromised by being nothing more than a pure assumption. It's flawed severely.

 

[3D Dillon]

You said Mewtwo would available at Summer...
wouldn't he be available at Spring? because that's the announcer said in the Smash Wii U Direct.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You said Mewtwo would available at Summer...
wouldn't he be available at Spring? because that's the announcer said in the Smash Wii U Direct.

Spring for Club Nintendo special release. Summer is supposed to be his Paid DLC release. That was what we were last told. He's actually being available in two unique ways, and if you didn't get him with the Club Nintendo combination, you can buy him later(as they even said those exact words "buy him later"). They simply went with Summer, likely because they don't know how long Mewtwo will take and can't give a definite date just yet. That'd be barely about 2-3 months from March, which is the 4th month since December, who is when we think he'll be done minimum, a good amount of time to do so with their crew. It does depend if all 200 are working on stuff, or if just 80 is. Sakurai has not given us a single world on whether his whole crew or some of it is working on all of this. It's unknown.

 

[pupNapoleon]

We do know when Mewtwo will be available, in Summer. We know he's not paid for right away. Yes, he is "testing the waters". That's his purpose. Patterns in industry does not change this. We know what the facts are, and it's not some fact that more characters ware being worked on. That's some theory that Sakurai outright said is not the case. And frankly, he is the guy in charge, not some fans. So no, I do not believe for one second more characters are planned at all. Of course I could be wrong, but I choose to believe the guy working on said characters over some fan theories because he at least is way more trustworthy in comparison. He has an actual reputation here. Some random fans do not.

You might as well let it go. You're complete unconvincing and we might as well agree to disagree. I do believe his word, and he actually has authority here. Call it appeal to authority if you want. But at least I'm believing the developers over theories, which is way more accurate anyway. He has no reason to lie about this. It accomplishes nothing. He does barely lie, and the last lie he made was a silly joke about ZSS. Not a grand lie by any means. It was entertainment at best. The closest thing he ever did to lying was not give as much good information so people took it out of context. And that's an issue with lack of information, not actual lying.

Considering you seem to not address majority of the points in my posts, perhaps agreeing to disagree would be best. I would like to clarify to things:
One- Sakurai is not lying to us, and I don't believe he ever has. It is never in the the best interest of a given company to disclose fully what it is that they are doing, for words are continually twisted and fans will be marginalized as well as segregated. That is what Public Relations divisions are for. I think Sakurai tends to speak, in particular, as little as he can about his work for a few reason:
1- to build suspense and surprise, factors to which he has repeatedly been known to cater to, particularly within SSB
2- he is not only working within a language which will be translated, but the cultural contexts therein, to a massive audience just waiting to dissect his every word
3- he does not always eloquate himself well to the masses, as seen in his article, which rubbed many people the wrong way http://nintendoeverything.com/sakurai-on-the-clone-characters-in-smash-bros-wii-u3ds/
Two; I'm not even claiming that other DLC is an absolute given. My claim is that with the information we have thus far been presented, which is far more reaching than just Sakurai's mediocre little blurb, we have substantial, merited probability that it will happen. Guarantee? No. Economics is not about guarantee, it is about probability.

Likewise, why is so it so hard to believe that Sakurai is actually telling us exactly his plans? There is nothing unbelievable about this. We already know his earlier team worked their butts off. As I said before, why wouldn't have have them take a bit of a break after Mewtwo's release, or before? He's got 80 members to work on any issues that come up, after all. Why can you seriously not accept this might actually be true? That he actually meant what he said? There is nothing unbelievable about this. The fact is, your theory is called out and not supported at all by Nintendo or Sakurai's actions towards Smash 4. Thus, there's no reason to believe what he said was false. There is no reason to believe he is definitely working on more stuff. It's of course possible, but it's not supported at all regardless, and thus, is unlikely by that alone. Other games are not proof of support. The only DLC he continued to give us were balance patches and that was it. In Brawl, it was stages. The only actual DLC was know he has made multiple of past release and we have precedence for is stages. Not characters. That's entirely too new and no other game series counts as an example of some precedence. This is SSB, its own series. There's only precedence in its patterns at best, and even those can be wrong. We have nothing legitimately concrete to go off of. I think the fact you're ignoring that regular Nintendo did not decide on DLC for every game and it was all driven by the specific developers is ridiculous. No, Nintendo(their main branch) did not have a hand in Hyrule Warriors or Mario Kart.

You may find it ridiculous, so please, explain to me why you find it ridiculous. This may sound like I'm being nitpicky, but I legitimately feel that by focusing on the fact that it is a fighting genre and its own series is merely harping on an irrelevant tangent that cannot be escaped, because all successes have a starting point.

Additionally, the first point of DLC for Nintendo was New Super Mario Bros Wii U, the first source I cited a few posts of mine back, which expanded the game with Super Luigi U, making every single level over in a Luigi level. That is a MASSIVE amount of DLC for a game, to remake EVERY level of a game, in a flagship franchise, in the first real DLC go for a company, and for a titular character without the leading character present. The download was even 20 dollars. It still was made. This is just one example. I'd also like you to explain to me why it matters that Nintendo "did not have a hand in Hyrule Warriors or Mario Kart." I'd like proof that Nintendo has no factor in the decision for DLC for these games, and I'd like to understand why you believe this precedence set by the company, the money they earn, is not relevant to how they go about their business in DLC for future games, when as you pointed out, this is about company profit, and Nintendo always makes a profit off of their major IPs.

Once more, there is an incredibly popular proverb that reads: "The smart man learns from his mistakes, the wise man learns from the smart man." There is absolutely no necessity for Nintendo, or any company, to completely forge new ground and spend time, effort, and resources, on solving problems which have already been solved. Only foolhardy businessmen do that.

If they did, please cite where they do, but as of now, it makes more logical sense that the developers decide to make more characters for their game. Just like Sakurai's team is officially doing. Do you have any actual evidence to show "Nintendo", not Nintendo EAD, not Tecmo Koei, decided HW and MK8 should get DLC? Did they actually have a hand in it? Because you're clearly assuming they do, and I don't have any reason to believe that stance over the actual game creators deciding this, you know, who make each bit of DLC, instead. You can always cite it, otherwise, your entire point is heavily compromised by being nothing more than a pure assumption. It's flawed severely.

I just find this a bit... ridiculous. I believe I use logic and facts to base my claims, specifically referencing where I am doing so. I read your responses time and time again which seem to be completely unaffected by anything but emotion and a harkening to beckon to every word with steadfast truth. Once again, here is my response to Mewtwo.

Sakurai may claim that Mewtwo is "testing the water," but the truth is that it cannot even possibly do that. We don't know when Mewtwo will be available for purchase separate from those who purchased both games, and those who purchased both games cannot be truly taken into consideration as those who would have purchased the character as DLC as it is merely a bonus, and in no way a showing of direct causation.
Particularly to your claim above, that some people in theory would not purchase Mewtwo or any character, they may have just happened to have bought both versions, and are getting Mewtwo as a consolation prize. Of course still, all people who get Mewtwo for free cannot be discounted for the sale, because many would likely have purchased him if given the chance.
The only possibility is that he is being used to gauge fan reaction- and given he current outcry for DLC and more content, that would be not only redundant, but begrudgingly unnecessary.
Wherein this demonstration that Mewtwo cannot possibly dictate how successful DLC would be, one can only be drawn to the notion that yes, Sakurai was in fact just speaking from a PR perspective.

Using the English language and basic concepts of what a "foot in the door would mean," explain to me, please (sincerely), how Mewtwo is an accurate representation of how much DLC would sell. Doing so, responding to my argument with an actual rebuttal rather than a rejection of any claim being made, might actually get us somewhere.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's simple; If Mewtwo sells well(we aren't talking about the combo package), he can be sure other characters will get paid for. If he doesn't, it's a bigger gamble to take. It's basic common sense for him.

What you're forgetting is that Smash never had Paid DLC till now. This is new. He wants to be sure it's worth it. He can't judge other games because they are not the exact same fans either. Smash has its own fans. Mario Kart is separate. In addition, Sakurai, Nintendo, Nintendo EAD, and Tecmo Koei are all different people with different thoughts on DLC. And yes, I do want you to cite where Nintendo's main branch positioned for DLC in every single game you mentioned. That's only easily claimable for New Super Mario Bros. and Fire Emblem, which they developed for. You're claiming it as if Nintendo's main branch has full control of any and all DLC that gets put out. That's the only way for your argument to make sense, because what so far has happened is Sakurai has claimed he is not going to do any DLC beyond patches, Mewtwo, Miiverse, and Tournament Mode till after Mewtwo is Paid DLC. He did say it's a test. You can't claim he doesn't mean this when he outright said it.

There is absolutely no reason to say he's not working on other stuff if he is. It accomplishes nothing. It's just wasted man power entirely. No, he does "know" all that character dlc will sell. This isn't some other game. This is Smash. It does matter entirely that it's not a genre already with paid dlc. He's only done free dlc so far. He wants to make sure players are interested in this series when it comes to paid dlc, because he has absolutely zero indication they would pay for it. He wants to know that they'll use their wall for sure. It is never worth the gamble and manpower to work on a character that takes a serious amount of time and effort to do so, if you're not absolutely sure it'll pay out for you. That's just plain bad business practice.

I don't know how many times I have to repeated this before it does sink in that he absolutely means exactly that. That's exactly what he's talking about. Do you honestly know much about business? Because I'm getting a sense that you're applying stuff that does not exist. Exactly why on should anyone believe Nintendo is outright forcing Sakurai to make dlc characters beyond Mewtwo? Sakurai sure as hell not doing it on his own. He's too smart to take a gamble. He cannot afford to lose this gamble either. He can't overwork his workers and not pay them. They're already worked hard from just Smash 4's two games. He's worked to the bone as well. He just wants to make sure the manpower used to make more will pay out in the end. He can easily afford to do Mewtwo with a technically free version, but only because you still have to buy both versions in some way to get him, so he's making money right now. His next goal is to make sure his second method of obtaining him is popular enough. In addition, Sakurai and his team cannot be forced to make more DLC if they're not paid for it. It doesn't work that way(really, do you honestly think they're going to work not knowing if their product will sell and they won't get paid due to this? Common sense). And Nintendo frankly isn't sitting golden on money either. Free DLC characters isn't something that's going to happen anymore. Just won't work. So now the goal is to make sure he can make the actual game of Paid DLC. Mewtwo is the gamble in itself. Now we have to see if it goes well. Claiming it's guaranteed to is not a smart thing to do, especially when you have to remember that fans of one game may have a different opinion of another game. I can say for sure that tons of people hate DLC characters in Fighting Games, especially the paid variety(and paid dlc in other stuff isn't always very popular. On-Disc DLC is hated the most, which as done with Mario Golf lately. That did not go well at all opinion-wise. They tend to think they were left out of the final product just so the company could get more money. Sakurai made it clear he didn't do that. Yet not everybody believes this(thinking Mewtwo was worked on before release), meaning they can actually think, due to this, they're paying for something that should've already been in. That's an actual mindset of people, and something that only was really common for fighting games with Paid DLC. Let's not pretend it will not apply here. Sales should be good, mind you. But should is still just a theory, not something we know for sure.

In other words, he's not going to just predict the outcome because he's far smarter than that. It's especially foolish to take a major gamble on manpower and find out you can't pay your 200 workers for their hard work. That's essentially the key reason to wait to work on more.

Yeah, agree to disagree, but I know business beyond well enough to know that Sakurai is playing the field beyond smart and taking chances could cost him pretty badly. With that many people to pay, you can't take huge gambles. And for something that's a new idea, and that there's precedence to believe Paid Character DLC in fighting games are not popular, he cannot assume the paid dlc here will be hyper popular. Not enough to make characters he may not even be able to sell. It's not guaranteed enough to work on them. You may think it is, but it's not. It never was. It has a good chance to go well, but not a 100% chance. No other series will prove this. Different series. Different factors to take into. We don't even know how much they're being paid. For all we know, he may not intend to keep all 200 overall. He may not even stay. He has a lot to think about once Mewtwo is fully released and to see what happens before making any major decisions. And the fact he seriously needs a break means it's pointless to work on more DLC unless it's of the free kind, which doesn't exactly pay out at all, making it also pointless to do so.

If I'm repeating a lot of points, it's because people are just not listening to how business actually works. Likewise, if you cannot actually prove your claim that Nintendo(the main branch) decides if all of those games got DLC, then it completely destroys your entire argument. You are assuming entirely that Nintendo will force it to happen. But they're not the ones in charge of this. It's Sakurai. This is a new thing he's trying. He never did Paid DLC before. He doesn't have the experience in it. He wants to make sure his personal decision comes out good before throwing out things extra and working on a product he may never be able to release. Let's say that Mewtwo is barely downloaded paid-wise. How can he be sure that Wolf(etc). will be popular enough to be paid for? But now he already made the character. It's too late. He can't give back the hours worked on it. And if he also doesn't sell? Well, there went all that time and money into a failed product. That's the overall thought pattern that's being shown here. That's the type of test that is being done. Guaranteeing Paid DLC will be popular enough to warrant more work. It's not a hard concept, and he doesn't just copy other companies and what they do. He very clearly does his own thing. This is why he refused to allow you to disable Stage Hazards like Ridley etc. with a toggle. You had to go Omega or deal with the hazards. He doesn't like copying PSASBR's style. Why would he want to outright copy other company decisions? It doesn't even fit his M.O. It's not something he does. He actually plays it smart and does his own thing, and always has. Hey, if Mewtwo sells well enough, we can get who knows what for characters returning or new. But it's still an If regardless. Sakurai isn't exactly unclear on this. If he didn't think a test was needed, he would not have done it in the first place. It's pretty damn clear he does not believe it's guaranteed, and there's no use trying to say otherwise. All of his statements completely support this. And there's nowhere to say where Nintendo disagrees either. And yes, I do expect exact truth here. This is a huge claim you're making, one that you have no support for. Entire different companies made DLC for their own games. Nintendo didn't control DLC or make it so tons of their games got it. They had two of theirs do so. That worked out for them. It worked out find for Nintendo EAD and Tecmo Koei. But they all chose to do this on their own. Sakurai has not chosen to do paid dlc as the only way to download a character beyond some special deal. Mewtwo is the only exception to this, and only because he wants to make sure paid dlc is going to sell enough to justify doing it with other things in Smash. It's definitely a gamble from his view. That's not even a question here.

And don't ignore the different Company thing either. That does matter. If Nintendo did not control what games got DLC outside of the ones they directly developed, then there is no precedent that they will encourage tons of Smash DLC. Likewise, while there is a precedent to suggest that Paid DLC just goes fine, there's enough of a chance or idea to believe that it might not be, which Sakurai is pretty blatantly expressing, that he doesn't want to take a super huge gamble. It's a small gamble with Mewtwo. Small enough to afford it and not worry. Anybody else is a bigger gamble. One thing people are forgetting is that Mewtwo is the most hypeworthy vet they can bring back. The chances of Snake are not high as is, who'd be the second one. Since his choices are nothing more than vets who have less popularity power than Snake or Mewtwo, he cannot afford to, you know, work on it without a strong enough reason to believe they absolutely will sell. Mewtwo has to sell rather to some degree(one Sakurai likely has planned, like a percentage or number he wants to achieve to feel it's necessary to work on other characters) well to know if lesser characters will too. It's not set in stone what he'll do, and he has no good reason to actually gamble a ton of money and manpower if there's any chance of failure. And DLC has always gotten mixed responses, especially the paid kind. That's a pretty good reason to believe it's not beyond guaranteed without a shadow of a doubt.

 

[pupNapoleon]

It's simple; If Mewtwo sells well(we aren't talking about the combo package), he can be sure other characters will get paid for. If he doesn't, it's a bigger gamble to take. It's basic common sense for him.

C'mon man, that is not a response to what I said. Are you actually reading my post or merely skimming certain words for what you think I'm saying? I even quoted my previous response hoping you'd respond to it and that little phrase is all I received, which doesn't actually refer to any single point I made at all, just the general thesis and question.
Mewtwo cannot be a representation of how well a character will sell because he in large part comes free to many owners of Smash.

To the rest of the response, I can quite literally copy and paste my last post. You tell me I know nothing about business, yet I'm telling you de facto what the business has done in the past, on the front of Nintendo, the Industry, and in common risk/reward factors as a whole. Legitimately if you believe THIS (SSB DLC) to be a noteworthy monetary risk, which is merely your personal belief and has absolutely nothing to do with any of the "information" that you are presenting (which is essentially, that everything is irrelevant except Sakurai's word because DLC is new territory, the latter claim not even being true), then I question what you believe Nintendo (a company, no less, who made its way by forging its own path in the impractical by taking many chances), could ever accomplish on its own.

EDIT:
A few of your assertions, and I say this after rereading your post, do sincerely make me question if you are open to the hearing of my point of view, or any other, at all.

Since his choices are nothing more than vets who have less popularity power than Snake or Mewtwo

To start we have the underlying assumption that DLC would absolutely be a veteran (which you list off as if it is not only the only option, but continue on to state as if no one ever mentioned to you that its not only not the only option, but that it may be merely your own opinion that it is even the more likely option compared to a newcomer, which Mewtwo technically is by Sakurai's word-- something you are holding so dear in the context in above debate. I'll repeat myself for ease.
1- DLC has far more options than veterans
2- Veterans don't have a 'better shot' at even being in this game as DLC than newcomers
3- Mewtwo is already himself considered a newcomer by Sakurai

Nextly, though, we have the idea that it would be:

he has no good reason to actually gamble a ton of money and manpower if there's any chance of failure

To this, I again remind you of the notion of efficiency. Multiple characters being worked on at once is how you save manpower from being lost.
As far as having no good reason, that's ridiculous. Adding more characters to the game he wanted to be the "best character game" is reason enough. The notion that he would save an extensive amount of resources AND time by combining his efforts now, and working on multiple characters at once, rather than "testing the waters," which as we learned in my last post and above, Mewtwo does not accurately do in any way, is the good reason. The gamble is to waste those resources and time by not doing so, when they are already assembled and working.
Lastly, you questioned what I know about business, but I remind you that in any economic venture, there is no absolute, no guarantee, as I said before, only probability. To say things like "any chance of failure" makes me think you, in fact, do not know what it is that you are talking about.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

C'mon man, that is not a response to what I said. Are you actually reading my post or merely skimming certain words for what you think I'm saying? I even quoted my previous response hoping you'd respond to it and that little phrase is all I received, which doesn't actually refer to any single point I made at all, just the general thesis and question.
Mewtwo cannot be a representation of how well a character will sell because he in large part comes free to many owners of Smash.

This is beyond false. He will be paid DLC, which is what Sakurai plans to pay attention to. He wants to actually see which people prefer, paid or some deal. There is no reason to give him some neat deal if he doesn't think that needs to be tested too. Otherwise, he'd have made him paid and be done with it. But he didn't.

To the rest of the response, I can quite literally copy and paste my last post. You tell me I know nothing about business, yet I'm telling you de facto what the business has done in the past, on the front of Nintendo, the Industry, and in common risk/reward factors as a whole. Legitimately if you believe THIS (SSB DLC) to be a noteworthy monetary risk, which is merely your personal belief and has absolutely nothing to do with any of the "information" that you are presenting (which is essentially, that everything is irrelevant except Sakurai's word because DLC is new territory, the latter claim not even being true), then I question what you believe Nintendo (a company, no less, who made its way by forging its own path in the impractical by taking many chances), could ever accomplish on its own.

Yeah, it's blatant you refuse to listen. Nintendo does not control other companies and whether they do DLC or not. They are not an example of Hyrule Warriors' immense DLC. Either prove they had a hand in this or drop the damn point. You keep claiming they have power but refuse to prove it. I don't care what your opinion on this is whatsoever. I only care if your claim is right.

And DLC is not new territory for Sakurai. Paid is. He never did it before. So of course he wants to be sure it'll work out well. Because he doesn't follow the hive mind as you are essentially suggesting. He's not going to make more DLC just because. He does not know absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt Mewtwo will sell significantly enough to make tons of money back to pay his workers. That actually is the likely percent he's going for here.

And it's very clear you do not understand business. Otherwise you would answer the claim that Nintendo forced other companies to do DLC that they don't actually directly control nor are they developing that particular game. If HW had almost no DLC, so be it. Tecmo Koei made the DLC themselves. They chose all of this. Literally the only thing Nintendo may do is prevent certain characters from being made DLC due to various issues or a belief that it shouldn't be done(for instance, they might not allow Tingle to be one of the MM characters due to his controversy. That's why they refuse to port them over to other regions, because he's not popular in the West).

I'm going to make this clear; Either prove Nintendo controls what companies do DLC, or let the point go as it's very flawed and has no effect on Sakurai's decision. If they actually do control it, then you have a valid point. Or to put it another way; Back up your immense claim already. None of this bullcrap about "it's done often". That doesn't matter. Yes, other companies do it. All unique companies of their own free will. If your claim is they are doing it because Nintendo said so, then back it up with Nintendo's own word on it. Otherwise, your claim holds no actual water. No ifs, no ands, no buts. Actually defend your point already with something tangible.

 

[pupNapoleon]

This is beyond false. He will be paid DLC, which is what Sakurai plans to pay attention to. He wants to actually see which people prefer, paid or some deal. There is no reason to give him some neat deal if he doesn't think that needs to be tested too. Otherwise, he'd have made him paid and be done with it. But he didn't.


Yeah, it's blatant you refuse to listen. Nintendo does not control other companies and whether they do DLC or not. They are not an example of Hyrule Warriors' immense DLC. Either prove they had a hand in this or drop the damn point. You keep claiming they have power but refuse to prove it. I don't care what your opinion on this is whatsoever. I only care if your claim is right.

And DLC is not new territory for Sakurai. Paid is. He never did it before. So of course he wants to be sure it'll work out well. Because he doesn't follow the hive mind as you are essentially suggesting. He's not going to make more DLC just because. He does not know absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt Mewtwo will sell significantly enough to make tons of money back to pay his workers. That actually is the likely percent he's going for here.

And it's very clear you do not undersatnd business. Otherwise you would answer the claim that Nintendo forced other companies to do DLC that they don't actually directly control nor are they developing that particular game. If HW had almost no DLC, so be it. Tecmo Koei made the DLC themselves. They chose all of this. Literally the only thing Nintendo may do is prevent certain characters from being made DLC due to various issues or a belief that it shouldn't be done(for instance, they might not allow Tingle to be one of the MM characters due to his controversy. That's why they refuse to port them over to other regions, because he's not popular in the West).

I'm going to make this clear; Either prove Nintendo controls what companies do DLC, or let the point go as it's very flawed and has no effect on Sakurai's decision. If they actually do control it, then you have a valid point. Or to put it another way; Back up your immense claim already. None of this bullcrap about "it's done often". That doesn't matter. Yes, other companies do it. All unique companies of their own free will. If your claim is they are doing it because Nintendo said so, then back it up with Nintendo's own word on it. Otherwise, your claim holds no actual water. No ifs, no ands, no buts. Actually defend your point already with something tangible.

When you can address even a single point I made, please cite @ pupNapoleon or PM me, because this is taking up the entire thread, and your condescending tone is getting unrighteously overbearing for me to ignore. I'm unsure if that is how you've been intending to come across, or if perhaps I even am (because I certainly am not intending to, and if I am, I absolutely apologize), but it truly is frustrating on my end at this time. Christmas (or any time) is no need for hostility, and while I may be reading into some of your remarks, more and more it is seeming to go from imperiously humble to outright aggressively snide.

 

[OmniGuardian]

DLC is made for the following reasons:
1:Add more content for existing players
2:Add more content to lure in new players
3:Make money

What would usually qualify a game for spending more money on development time?
1: High volume of sales
2: Interest in additional content from fanbase
3: Ability to make money or increase reputation

What does the Smash 4 community consist of?
1: 4 million(ish) owners
2: Multiple active communities expressing interest in DLC
3: Longevity of fanbase
4: Professional(ish) scenes
5: Tons of additional sales from Amiibo's and adapters showing interest in accessories

From the looks of it Smash 4 has already proven itself a worthy market. The odds of people (who get paid to crunch numbers at Nintendo) not putting these simple pieces of information together and realizing the potential profit and positive community image is extremely slim.

Do they have some sort of magic number of Mewtwo sales + Mewtwo redeems to decide whether or not to make DLC? I doubt it. Do they have an as of yet unrevealed strategy to test the DLC waters and see how viable it is? I would take 1000:1 odds on it.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Nintendo can realize it all they want, but Sakurai clearly does not consider it "obvious" and wants to still test the waters. He told us so himself. There is no reason to believe otherwise.

Also, since it's bloody clear you refuse to backup your claim ever, DukeNapoleon, this conversation is over. I do not believe your argument ever held water because I do not believe Nintendo themselves(the specific set of developers. Nintendo EAD is entirely different people) is the reason for DLC in Hyrule Warriors, will be in Smash 4(which is only so far of what is announced), or Mario Kart 8. Since you are making this claim, I expect you to back it up with actual facts that Nintendo is doing it. Cite your sources. Your theory is not a good enough reason to believe nothing more than Mewtwo is being worked on. We need hard proof that Nintendo will force this. Since Sakurai made it blatantly clear he's only work on Mewtwo character-wise, there is no reason to not believe him right now. Word of God has spoken. You're claiming this is not the case, which makes little sense, but also claim Nintendo will force this to change. But you have no proof that Nintendo does this kind of thing either. So please prove they do. Otherwise, let it go because your theory lacks validity.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Nintendo can realize it all they want, but Sakurai clearly does not consider it "obvious" and wants to still test the waters. He told us so himself. There is no reason to believe otherwise.

Also, since it's bloody clear you refuse to backup your claim ever, DukeNapoleon, this conversation is over. I do not believe your argument ever held water because I do not believe Nintendo themselves(the specific set of developers. Nintendo EAD is entirely different people) is the reason for DLC in Hyrule Warriors, will be in Smash 4(which is only so far of what is announced), or Mario Kart 8. Since you are making this claim, I expect you to back it up with actual facts that Nintendo is doing it. Cite your sources. Your theory is not a good enough reason to believe nothing more than Mewtwo is being worked on. We need hard proof that Nintendo will force this. Since Sakurai made it blatantly clear he's only work on Mewtwo character-wise, there is no reason to not believe him right now. Word of God has spoken. You're claiming this is not the case, which makes little sense, but also claim Nintendo will force this to change. But you have no proof that Nintendo does this kind of thing either. So please prove they do. Otherwise, let it go because your theory lacks validity.

I finally understand what the issue has been. You believe that you stand on a pedestal of accuracy and need to be disproven, as the king on top of the hill, wherein anyone else is only supposed to knock you out because your own theory is standing on top.
That is not at all the case, my friend, you have just as bloody much to prove.
I will leave that to any reader to decide.

And also with the contradiction.

Since Sakurai made it blatantly clear he's only work on Mewtwo character-wise, there is no reason to not believe him right now. Word of God has spoken.

Direct: 34.44 in "Mewtwo has joined the battle as a new fighter."
If you insist on Sakurai being very specific about his terminology, I suggest you start acknowledging that Mewtwo is a new fighter, and that other potential DLC candidates are just as likely to be considered 'completely new candidates.'

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I finally understand what the issue has been. You believe that you stand on a pedestal of accuracy and need to be disproven, as the king on top of the hill, wherein anyone else is only supposed to knock you out because your own theory is standing on top.
That is not at all the case, my friend, you have just as bloody much to prove.
I will leave that to any reader to decide.

And also with the contradiction.

Too bad for you my entire thing is 100% supported by Sakurai said and yes, I do stand stand as accurate. You have given zero proof that it could be false.

Direct: 34.44 in "Mewtwo has joined the battle as a new fighter."
If you insist on Sakurai being very specific about his terminology, I suggest you start acknowledging that Mewtwo is a new fighter, and that other potential DLC candidates are just as likely to be considered 'completely new candidates.'[/quote]
Sakurai didn't say that either. Xander did. You should try a bit more carefully when citing people here. Mewtwo is blatantly a veteran in every way(since he's a character from a previous game. He cannot count as a newcomer no matter what). His moveset has to be made from scratch, just like a new fighter would be. It's beyond easy that was miscommunication when Sakurai talked about Mewtwo. In addition, he uses the term Newcomer for an actual new Character or New Fighter. Sakurai himself has never called him anything but "character" in any context. Again, we can't claim Sakurai views it this way when he didn't even say it. Likewise, considering for some reason Dark Pit is treated like a Veteran on the website(due to his lack of a Newcomer tag), it's not hard to believe something was lost in translation. Which is fairly often these days. I don't know why anyone is attempting to claim Mewtwo isn't a Veteran when he's a Melee character being brought back to Smash 4. He's no less a Veteran than Dr. Mario is. By that logic, Dr. Mario is an entirely new character. Although when they say New Character, something interesting crosses my mind; Smash 4 is a finished product. It has a final roster. Mewtwo is a New Character to that specific roster. That could be exactly what Xander meant. It could be anything. He's no less a Veteran regardless since he was from a past Smash game, but the context is pretty much not much there for the word choice.

Still doesn't even answer the question of whether Nintendo is forcing them to do DLC. Now, did you seriously not mean this? Is that why you're avoiding citing this? If so, then I did misread you. If not, then there's no excuse for you not proving yoru clainm properly. My claim is completely support by Sakurai's interviews. That's exactly what I'm claiming, that his interviews are exactly as he said. So technically, I'm only wrong if Sakurai is wrong here. Likewise, I understand some possibilities why he made those claims. My opinion on the whole "don't make stuff you can't guarantee will sell enough to make your money back" is the one thing he didn't say.

 

[mynameisBlade]

Il just say this. The fact that Nintendo basically said they are not sure if Smash DLC will sell makes them look stupid. And anyone who agrees or sees it that way is infact "lost". Smash DLC will sell no matter what. So get over it and pray for more characters. Not sure if Smash DLC will sell gimme a damn break...haha

 

[pupNapoleon]

Too bad for you my entire thing is 100% supported by Sakurai said and yes, I do stand stand as accurate. You have given zero proof that it could be false.

Direct: 34.44 in "Mewtwo has joined the battle as a new fighter."
If you insist on Sakurai being very specific about his terminology, I suggest you start acknowledging that Mewtwo is a new fighter, and that other potential DLC candidates are just as likely to be considered 'completely new candidates.'
Sakurai didn't say that either. Xander did. You should try a bit more carefully when citing people here. Mewtwo is blatantly a veteran in every way(since he's a character from a previous game. He cannot count as a newcomer no matter what). His moveset has to be made from scratch, just like a new fighter would be. It's beyond easy that was miscommunication when Sakurai talked about Mewtwo. In addition, he uses the term Newcomer for an actual new Character or New Fighter. Sakurai himself has never called him anything but "character" in any context. Again, we can't claim Sakurai views it this way when he didn't even say it. Likewise, considering for some reason Dark Pit is treated like a Veteran on the website(due to his lack of a Newcomer tag), it's not hard to believe something was lost in translation. Which is fairly often these days. I don't know why anyone is attempting to claim Mewtwo isn't a Veteran when he's a Melee character being brought back to Smash 4. He's no less a Veteran than Dr. Mario is. By that logic, Dr. Mario is an entirely new character. Although when they say New Character, something interesting crosses my mind; Smash 4 is a finished product. It has a final roster. Mewtwo is a New Character to that specific roster. That could be exactly what Xander meant. It could be anything. He's no less a Veteran regardless since he was from a past Smash game, but the context is pretty much not much there for the word choice.

Still doesn't even answer the question of whether Nintendo is forcing them to do DLC. Now, did you seriously not mean this? Is that why you're avoiding citing this? If so, then I did misread you. If not, then there's no excuse for you not proving yoru clainm properly. My claim is completely support by Sakurai's interviews. That's exactly what I'm claiming, that his interviews are exactly as he said. So technically, I'm only wrong if Sakurai is wrong here. Likewise, I understand some possibilities why he made those claims. My opinion on the whole "don't make stuff you can't guarantee will sell enough to make your money back" is the one thing he didn't say.

I will ask you once more to quell your unrighteous condescending tone, because it is making your false didactic assertions seem vacant.
I never claimed Nintendo is forcing Sakurai to do DLC, perhaps your lack of reading my posts time after time in this thread has been the source of the discomfort.
I've cited plenty of information in majority of my posts, stating fact after fact. I've asked you for responses to specific points, and I've cited Sakurai a handful of times where he makes claims directed contrary to yours. You fail to acknowledge anything that is not in tandem with your own flawed pathways, and that is making this conversation entirely moot. I am in fact, legitimately, done with what I can at best refer to here as "banter," and more accurately attest to as a lack of self control.

Moving on to the thread at hand:
I initially thought that with any DLC, it would be plausible for the amiibo to be the way to purchase the content (one time activation only for the system, perhaps?). Did anyone else come up with a similar theory? I don't believe that would be possible anymore, given how the amiibo have so far been handled.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ah, so you didn't claim that. K.

And I think it's a good idea not to make it based upon an Amiibo. For the same reason you said. However, it was also a bad idea, as if you couldn't get it any other way, people will snatch them up, and control who could buy them. I'm sure Nintendo could actually stop anybody trying that if they wanted to(and if they notice it). I think by ideally making it so Sakurai specifically sells any DLC(and possibly more than Mewtwo, but that has yet to be set in stone what'll happen regardless) instead, there's no way for anybody to be screwed out unless, obviously, they have no net connection.

 

[pupNapoleon]

It's a shame the amiibo don't do anything more. It was brought up in another thread that they could at least make it easier to unlock some of the customs for individual characters, which so far are randomized by
1- type (character upgrade, clothing, etc)
2- which character it is for is irrelevant
3- redundancy (one you already have)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Well, they do allow you to get a random item each day in Hyrule Warriors(I do not know if this works for the Link/Toon Link Amiibo since it unlocks the Spinner weapon for Link. It may be a one-time use), so they're not truly useless. I agree they're awful in the context of Smash. They could've done a little more...

 

[pupNapoleon]

Well, they do allow you to get a random item each day in Hyrule Warriors(I do not know if this works for the Link/Toon Link Amiibo since it unlocks the Spinner weapon for Link. It may be a one-time use), so they're not truly useless. I agree they're awful in the context of Smash. They could've done a little more...

They unlock mii costumes in Mario Kart 8, and they do something in Captain Toad too, I'm told.
But I'm not officially playing Captain Toad or majority of my amiibo until this Christmas Day starts for me, so I could tell you more then.
The amiibo will really kill me when they launch a Pokemon line.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

They unlock mii costumes in Mario Kart 8, and they do something in Captain Toad too, I'm told.
But I'm not officially playing Captain Toad or majority of my amiibo until this Christmas Day starts for me, so I could tell you more then.
The amiibo will really kill me when they launch a Pokemon line.

I have a feeling they can't actually get enough good quality Amiibos out for that kind of line. Plus, that's too many and they need to make sure enough sell to justify making a ton. Remember, that's over 700. Nobody can collect that many, and then some people will have their favorite Pokemon left out. But then, they can't just make any, but the most popular. it's a disaster waiting to happen, imo. There's just way too much. Smash only has 52 characters possible including Mewtwo, to make Amiibos out of at this time. Depending if Mii Fighter is split into 3 or stays as 1 fairly big Amiibo. That one hasn't been shown to my knowledge.

I can't see Pokemon as an inevitiable Amiibo line, but I could see one based upon the Movies themselves, or special promotions for Legendaries or something. Like, releasing those could add them to your games. An alternate method for people who don't play online. It'd required the New 3DS, or the 3DS Amiibo adapter thingy.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I have a feeling they can't actually get enough good quality Amiibos out for that kind of line. Plus, that's too many and they need to make sure enough sell to justify making a ton. Remember, that's over 700. Nobody can collect that many, and then some people will have their favorite Pokemon left out. But then, they can't just make any, but the most popular. it's a disaster waiting to happen, imo. There's just way too much. Smash only has 52 characters possible including Mewtwo, to make Amiibos out of at this time. Depending if Mii Fighter is split into 3 or stays as 1 fairly big Amiibo. That one hasn't been shown to my knowledge.

I can't see Pokemon as an inevitiable Amiibo line, but I could see one based upon the Movies themselves, or special promotions for Legendaries or something. Like, releasing those could add them to your games. An alternate method for people who don't play online. It'd required the New 3DS, or the 3DS Amiibo adapter thingy.

They already had a line similar to the amiibo for the Wii U, with Pokemon Rumble. They released... I think 20 characters, and they were questionable choices at best, mostly very difficult to acquire (and yes, they even scanned into the wii u gamepad).
I would never think all 700 Pokemon would be amiibo. But I could see a top 50 for sure. Or, as you slated, a promotional line based on something in particular. They'd save a lot of time if they just did one amiibo per Family- such as Bulbasaur through Megavenasaur, all on one figure.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

They already had a line similar to the amiibo for the Wii U, with Pokemon Rumble. They released... I think 20 characters, and they were questionable choices at best, mostly very difficult to acquire (and yes, they even scanned into the wii u gamepad).
I would never think all 700 Pokemon would be amiibo. But I could see a top 50 for sure. Or, as you slated, a promotional line based on something in particular. They'd save a lot of time if they just did one amiibo per Family- such as Bulbasaur through Megavenasaur, all on one figure.

Speaking of, how many actual families are there? Also, they have to remake each Amiibo for any "new" family that come up. Whether it's a Mega, a Baby, or a new Evolution. Also, I don't think you can fit 10 Eevee and it's evolutions on one. XD

Unless you mean, a Bulbasaur alone covers the other 3 as well. That might work, but there's still be a seriously huge amount of Amiibos... hmm...

 

[PSIBoy]

Il just say this. The fact that Nintendo basically said they are not sure if Smash DLC will sell makes them look stupid. And anyone who agrees or sees it that way is infact "lost". Smash DLC will sell no matter what. So get over it and pray for more characters. Not sure if Smash DLC will sell gimme a damn break...haha

Well of course it's gonna sell. The question is by how much. By their definition, it means a lot of sales. In fact, anyone who downloads Mewtwo for free actually paid for it by buying both versions.

If you mean it's going to sell well no matter what and you're 100% certain, which it seems that way given that you are insulting others, then that means you can see the future. Can you tell me when World War III will start so I can make preparations for that day?

Do you honestly think that the future is a guarantee? It doesn't help that you're insulting people to make yourself look good. While I do believe more DLC is on the way, this is different than any other type of DLC Nintendo has done before. Look at all the variables: different fanbase, different genre, different director... Do you honestly think that Sakurai is going to take a gigantic risk to only find that he wasted tremendous resources? What I'm saying is that this time the risk outweighs the reward, and to release other DLC characters a few months after Mewtwo tests, then it is probably a smart move. A lot of people hate paid DLC in fighting games like this, so we don't know how they'll react to other DLC, or even to Mewtwo, one of the most popular and iconic characters out there.