Theory on yet unrevealed characters and the WiiU/Future Unannounced DLC Discussion

[pupNapoleon]

On top of that, Sakurai did say he hated cutting characters due to always some people liking the character (even Pichu), so I guess that's a reason why I belive Wolf, Lucas, Snake (clearing legal issues), and Ice Climbers (if they can get the issues fixed) are higher priority than others. However, being a veteran is not a 'get in free' ticket, like Roy, Young Link, Pichu, and even Squirtle and Ivysaur. They just don't seem to be popular enough/were outright replaced/unnecessary in how many characters that franchise has, and have less of a chance than some highly requested newcomers, like Dixie/K. Rool, Isaac, and Inkling.

Well... to say that Squirtle and Ivysaur are not as popular/wereoutright replaced/unnecessary, compared to the characters you listed, is just incorrect. The are without question more profitable and popular to Nintendo.
Unnecessary is merely your personal opinion. I personally find Lucas to be unnecessary.

 

[PSIBoy]

Well... to say that Squirtle and Ivysaur are not as popular/wereoutright replaced/unnecessary, compared to the characters you listed, is just incorrect. The are without question more profitable and popular to Nintendo.
Unnecessary is merely your personal opinion. I personally find Lucas to be unnecessary.

You misunderstand. Roy and Young Link were replaced, Pichu wasn't popular enough, and Squirtle... Not only would he and Ivysaur not feel the same without PKMN trainer to Brawl veterans, but Pokemon already has six characters counting Mewtwo. I just listed not popular/replaced/unnecessary to save me the trouble of typing each scenario for each one. Guess I shouldn't be so lazy, huh? I will concede that Squirtle is quite popular compared to the others, but given that Pokemon has what it has, I'd say we'd be lucky to get both. Squirtle seems more likely now in my view, but given that Mario was originally intended with 6 characters (no, I do not count Yoshi or Wario as Mario because of their symbols), 6 or 7 total Pokemon characters sounds reasonable enough to me.

And given the trend of Pokemon newcomers, it stands to reason that Sakurai may deem it necessary that we might see a Gen 3 rep or something before Squirtle and Ivysaur. Not saying I agree or disagree with the points previously made by you and HyperFalcon and others about this topic earlier, this is just a prediction given the trend, but knowing Sakurai, predictions are useless for the most part.

 

[d00derino]

You misunderstand. Roy and Young Link were replaced, Pichu wasn't popular enough, and Squirtle... Not only would he and Ivysaur not feel the same without PKMN trainer to Brawl veterans, but Pokemon already has six characters counting Mewtwo. I just listed not popular/replaced/unnecessary to save me the trouble of typing each scenario for each one. Guess I shouldn't be so lazy, huh? I will concede that Squirtle is quite popular compared to the others, but given that Pokemon has what it has, I'd say we'd be lucky to get both. Squirtle seems more likely now in my view, but given that Mario was originally intended with 6 characters (no, I do not count Yoshi or Wario as Mario because of their symbols), 6 or 7 total Pokemon characters sounds reasonable enough to me.

And given the trend of Pokemon newcomers, it stands to reason that Sakurai may deem it necessary that we might see a Gen 3 rep or something before Squirtle and Ivysaur. Not saying I agree or disagree with the points previously made by you and HyperFalcon and others about this topic earlier, this is just a prediction given the trend, but knowing Sakurai, predictions are useless for the most part.

I don't think Sakuri is very keen on having to continue on this project. It seems very daunting, especially considering that the characters made will have to work with gameplay on two different consoles and versions of the game. Thinking about it, Mewtwo is kind of a "nice to have". I'm losing faith in further DLC just because it seems very costly to do, especially if Sakuri wants reigns. Maybe the dude just wants to move on from this project?

 

[pupNapoleon]

You misunderstand. Roy and Young Link were replaced, Pichu wasn't popular enough, and Squirtle... Not only would he and Ivysaur not feel the same without PKMN trainer to Brawl veterans, but Pokemon already has six characters counting Mewtwo. I just listed not popular/replaced/unnecessary to save me the trouble of typing each scenario for each one. Guess I shouldn't be so lazy, huh? I will concede that Squirtle is quite popular compared to the others, but given that Pokemon has what it has, I'd say we'd be lucky to get both. Squirtle seems more likely now in my view, but given that Mario was originally intended with 6 characters (no, I do not count Yoshi or Wario as Mario because of their symbols), 6 or 7 total Pokemon characters sounds reasonable enough to me.

And given the trend of Pokemon newcomers, it stands to reason that Sakurai may deem it necessary that we might see a Gen 3 rep or something before Squirtle and Ivysaur. Not saying I agree or disagree with the points previously made by you and HyperFalcon and others about this topic earlier, this is just a prediction given the trend, but knowing Sakurai, predictions are useless for the most part.

Well, Pokemon was INTENDED to have 7 characters in Brawl, maybe 8 if Plusle and Minun were actually the seventh forbidden character.
Even within this game, we were told at a point that for SSB4, no characters had been planned on being cut, early on. That means that early on, there were plans for seven characters in this game, including Squirtle and Ivysaur.

 

[PSIBoy]

I don't think Sakuri is very keen on having to continue on this project. It seems very daunting, especially considering that the characters made will have to work with gameplay on two different consoles and versions of the game. Thinking about it, Mewtwo is kind of a "nice to have". I'm losing faith in further DLC just because it seems very costly to do, especially if Sakuri wants reigns. Maybe the dude just wants to move on from this project?

True. I guess it is rather selfish of me not to consider when I wind up giving companies the benefit of the doubt in most situations. As much as I liked 3DS, it was in my opinion an unwise move on Nintendo's part to develop it along with Wii U at the same time. Even so, Smash DLC currently shows much potential, and high risk. I do not think that Nintendo will throw this opportunity away if Mewtwo sells well, even if they have to bring in a new director or something. If he doesn't sell well, then DLC is screwed.

By the way, why are you specifically targeting me? (Just kidding)

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

Well, Pokemon was INTENDED to have 7 characters in Brawl, maybe 8 if Plusle and Minun were actually the seventh forbidden character.
Even within this game, we were told at a point that for SSB4, no characters had been planned on being cut, early on. That means that early on, there were plans for seven characters in this game, including Squirtle and Ivysaur.

Although at the point, pokemon trainer was still together but because of the 3DS it was changed to just charizard

 

[pupNapoleon]

True. I guess it is rather selfish of me not to consider when I wind up giving companies the benefit of the doubt in most situations. As much as I liked 3DS, it was in my opinion an unwise move on Nintendo's part to develop it along with Wii U at the same time. Even so, Smash DLC currently shows much potential, and high risk. I do not think that Nintendo will throw this opportunity away if Mewtwo sells well, even if they have to bring in a new director or something. If he doesn't sell well, then DLC is screwed.

By the way, why are you specifically targeting me? (Just kidding)

I'm not sure I have yet to comprehend what anyone has ever meant when they said Smash is high risk for DLC.
If any video game that Nintendo ever had was NOT high risk for DLC, it was smash bros.

Although at the point, pokemon trainer was still together but because of the 3DS it was changed to just charizard

Well, the 'point' of Sheik was that she transformed from Zelda, and the 'point' of ZSS is that she was the result of Samus losing her suit after a master blast. I'm not sure I understand your statement in the slightest.
Sakurai had acknowledged that PT represented something in Pokemon shocking, surprising, and accurate for the series. Charizard in no way encompasses any of that.

EDIT: I understand what you meant now. At 'that' point, not at 'the point.' Which changes the entire phrase.

 

[PSIBoy]

Well, Pokemon was INTENDED to have 7 characters in Brawl, maybe 8 if Plusle and Minun were actually the seventh forbidden character.
Even within this game, we were told at a point that for SSB4, no characters had been planned on being cut, early on. That means that early on, there were plans for seven characters in this game, including Squirtle and Ivysaur.

Really? Well, that could bump Pokemon up to 8 reasonably, I guess. In terms of the cut characters, I would theorize then that time, legal issues, and/or hardware limitations doomed the cut Brawl vets. It makes me feel better knowing that Sakurai and his team tried to get all the Brawl vets in. DLC may be an opportunity to get what plans he and his team had and finish them if at all possible, but then... Money. I wonder how Nintendo will manage this dilemma of Smash DLC. Packs most likely if Mewtwo is successful. If not, then the Brawl vets and K. Rool, Dixie Kong, Isaac, and all the others may have another shot at a possible Smash 5, but it is far in the future. Impossible to tell if there will even be another one.

I'm not sure I have yet to comprehend what anyone has ever meant when they said Smash is high risk for DLC.
If any video game that Nintendo ever had was NOT high risk for DLC, it was smash bros.

Simple: Different fanbase, different genre, different game, different series, characters for DLC, all different variables. Besides, a poll on this site shows that many people on here hate paid DLC. If I were Sakurai, who also has no experience in DLC, I would not stake more than I have to to ensure that DLC will be profitable. I'm sure it will, but caution must not be thrown in the wind.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Really? Well, that could bump Pokemon up to 8 reasonably, I guess. In terms of the cut characters, I would theorize then that time, legal issues, and/or hardware limitations doomed the cut Brawl vets. It makes me feel better knowing that Sakurai and his team tried to get all the Brawl vets in. DLC may be an opportunity to get what plans he and his team had and finish them if at all possible, but then... Money. I wonder how Nintendo will manage this dilemma of Smash DLC. Packs most likely if Mewtwo is successful. If not, then the Brawl vets and K. Rool, Dixie Kong, Isaac, and all the others may have another shot at a possible Smash 5, but it is far in the future. Impossible to tell if there will even be another one.

I don't think DLC is a chance for us to get anything they had planned in. ESPECIALLY not at first.
Sakurai has overwhelmingly stated, as has Miyamoto as a representative of Nintendo, that they don't want DLC to feel like material that was with held from the game. While 'didn't have time' is not actually the same thing, it is much more akin to with held content, than actually newly conceptualized material as DLC.

If we get unfinished data as DLC, I think it will be IC's and Wolf, but even then, I don't think it would be right after Mewtwo.

 

[PSIBoy]

I don't think DLC is a chance for us to get anything they had planned in. ESPECIALLY not at first.
Sakurai has overwhelmingly stated, as has Miyamoto as a representative of Nintendo, that they don't want DLC to feel like material that was with held from the game. While 'didn't have time' is not actually the same thing, it is much more akin to with held content, than actually newly conceptualized material as DLC.

If we get unfinished data as DLC, I think it will be IC's and Wolf, but even then, I don't think it would be right after Mewtwo.

That will depend if IC's limitations are fixed. And I thought you viewed Squirtle and Ivysaur more likely? Or do they not have data outside trophies while Wolf does?

If DLC came out right after Mewtwo, then they must have planned and started developed prior to the release, likely a month or two after the 50 Fact Extravaganza. That would defeat the purpose of 'testing the waters', wouldn't it?

 

[pupNapoleon]

That will depend if IC's limitations are fixed. And I thought you viewed Squirtle and Ivysaur more likely? Or do they not have data outside trophies while Wolf does?

If DLC came out right after Mewtwo, then they must have planned and started developed prior to the release, likely a month or two after the 50 Fact Extravaganza. That would defeat the purpose of 'testing the waters', wouldn't it?

I view Squirtle and Ivysaur as more likely than most veterans.
Not Ice Climbers, they are strictly about 'can they be done' or not. I don't believe we have gotten a full answer to this.
And I do think Wolf will return. Or a new character from the new game, but we know Sakurai loves Wolf.
I view new characters as more likely than veterans, in general.

I'm not sure what 'testing the water,' means, but it logically cannot just refer to 'do people want Mewtwo and will he sell?' as it cannot accurately measure sales since many Mewtwo's are freebies.
Thusly, it could mean 'testing the difficulty of balancing,' or it could even refer to developing a package of characters at once, and we only happen to know about Mewtwo. It could mean something else entirely.
But it cannot mean 'Will Mewtwo sell,' because 1- Nintendo has never had a given on DLC as much as SSB, and 2- Mewtwo will be given away to too many people to accurately tell what his sales numbers would be.

 

[PSIBoy]

I view Squirtle and Ivysaur as more likely than most veterans.
Not Ice Climbers, they are strictly about 'can they be done' or not. I don't believe we have gotten a full answer to this.
And I do think Wolf will return. Or a new character from the new game, but we know Sakurai loves Wolf.
I view new characters as more likely than veterans, in general.

I'm not sure what 'testing the water,' means, but it logically cannot just refer to 'do people want Mewtwo and will he sell?' as it cannot accurately measure sales since many Mewtwo's are freebies.
Thusly, it could mean 'testing the difficulty of balancing,' or it could even refer to developing a package of characters at once, and we only happen to know about Mewtwo. It could mean something else entirely.
But it cannot mean 'Will Mewtwo sell,' because 1- Nintendo has never had a given on DLC as much as SSB, and 2- Mewtwo will be given away to too many people to accurately tell what his sales numbers would be.

Unless Nintendo somehow keeps track on how many people download Mewtwo for free and how many people buy him. Even so, I do not think either Mewtwo alone can test reception of DLC. Many factors such as popularity and freebies alter the number of downloads compared to regular paid DLC. Other DLC will likely not be as successful, unless they are is old in a pack at relatively cheap prices or something.

 

[d00derino]

True. I guess it is rather selfish of me not to consider when I wind up giving companies the benefit of the doubt in most situations. As much as I liked 3DS, it was in my opinion an unwise move on Nintendo's part to develop it along with Wii U at the same time. Even so, Smash DLC currently shows much potential, and high risk. I do not think that Nintendo will throw this opportunity away if Mewtwo sells well, even if they have to bring in a new director or something. If he doesn't sell well, then DLC is screwed.

By the way, why are you specifically targeting me? (Just kidding)

I didn't even realize, sorry -- it's totally non-intentional. I'm just playing devil's advocate here as a fellow software developer. I won't claim I have insight in gaming; I have zero. But I do know software budgets and can play towards Sakuri. I also feel empathy for him. At times, you want to move on. Especially from a grueling project. On the other hand, sometimes you don't want someone else touching your baby.

My prediction? After Mewtwo we get a bigger DLC package, maybe by a Nintendo group with minimal input from Sakuri. I think the money will be too enticing. This game sold record breaking numbers of consoles for Nintendo, it would be stupid not to re-invest in content for it. Digital or through disc. But I don't expect Sakuri to be fully on-board with it. Kind of how he was done after Brawl.

I think SSB4 is a great platform for the series. I think if they can nail down characters and expand the event mode and maybe add in some more stages Nintendo can profit for the rest of this console's lifecycle and maybe even recycle the core for the next gen. I don't think the game needs another thing added, just supplements.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I could see one big expansion pack for the series.
Two big modes.
Further depth to that which we have already.
Tons of little things, like ability to have the multi character stock match, turn stage hazards off, add more boards/options to Smash Tour.

And a heap of characters.

Then it isn't about which one character will sell well.
It is the 'smash bros expansion pack.'

 

[PSIBoy]

I didn't even realize, sorry -- it's totally non-intentional. I'm just playing devil's advocate here as a fellow software developer. I won't claim I have insight in gaming; I have zero. But I do know software budgets and can play towards Sakuri. I also feel empathy for him. At times, you want to move on. Especially from a grueling project. On the other hand, sometimes you don't want someone else touching your baby.

My prediction? After Mewtwo we get a bigger DLC package, maybe by a Nintendo group with minimal input from Sakuri. I think the money will be too enticing. This game sold record breaking numbers of consoles for Nintendo, it would be stupid not to re-invest in content for it. Digital or through disc. But I don't expect Sakuri to be fully on-board with it. Kind of how he was done after Brawl.

I think SSB4 is a great platform for the series. I think if they can nail down characters and expand the event mode and maybe add in some more stages Nintendo can profit for the rest of this console's lifecycle and maybe even recycle the core for the next gen. I don't think the game needs another thing added, just supplements.

I was joking with that last part. Don't worry about it.

I could see one big expansion pack for the series.
Two big modes.
Further depth to that which we have already.
Tons of little things, like ability to have the multi character stock match, turn stage hazards off, add more boards/options to Smash Tour.

And a heap of characters.

Then it isn't about which one character will sell well.
It is the 'smash bros expansion pack.'

I can't imagine two more big modes, but I can see issues with current ones being fixed. I wouldn't mind multi-character stock matches either. But I cannot see more than 5 characters being DLC. Perhaps I'm wrong and they will sell 10, but I think that is the absolute limit.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I cannot honestly see a "heap of characters" at all. They take the most amount of time than anything else besides any Mode that requires a lot more data than any character(which is probably unlikely. While a stage(Orbital Gate) did take the same amount of time, it did clearly have more programming than other stages and as we know, was not the only thing being worked on). There's just way too many variables to make them super easily. Nearly 30 different moves(that includes customs), more costumes than originally, and unlike in previous games, heavy emphasis on game balance. They're going to take a very long time to get right overall. And there is no guarantee Paid DLC will be severely popular for Smash. Not enough to just suddenly throw out characters. They may do a few more(likely veterans people were annoyed that were cut, less so Pokemon because the series was very well done, so they don't feel jipped with the content, and moreso StarFox and Mother, which got more content removed and almost nothing to make up for it. Pokemon cannot actually say that, as it was repped severely well overall beyond, you know, stages, which also would not be that hard to remake. I can see more stages from various series. Poke Floats, regardless of some silly music rule, as nobody said it couldn't repeat the music at all, is pretty darn easy for them to remake. It's just objects floating around in a set pattern. No A.I. to deal with, after all. Or Pokemon Stadium 1, ported from Brawl. I honestly do think Wolf and Lucas have a better chance right now, mostly Wolf, as it'll gauge players' interest(which no, we cannot literally know how the majority will feel until it properly happens) a lot better than Mewtwo. He's a less super popular character and would actually make sure people don't mind Paid DLC for Smash characters, even if they aren't the ultimate most popular ever).

I agree Mewtwo is not a great way to test it, but it's more because the deal sullies the facts a bit much. We don't even know the price for him just yet. Although him already being severely popular(and not because he's a Pokemon, but because he's the most heartfelt cut of Smash overall) means that it severely appeals to Smash fans, but not much else. On the other hand, Paid DLC is pretty much designed for more dedicated fans, which aren't usually casual fans(there's an irony here). One thing to note is that an average Smash player is intended, by Sakurai, to be the casual fanbase. They buy the game, and play it. Paid DLC is not really meant to directly appeal to them, but to the more hardcore/competitive crowd. Same with Patches in general. Balance Patches are pretty clearly more appealing for competitive players, even if they benefit everyone well. Having a more balanced game is great for tourneys. The actual idea is that the casual fanbase aren't about tourneys. It doesn't mean they don't like balance, but they aren't viewed as caring more about it. It's quite clear that this game appeals more to the competitive crowd, even if it has nothing to do with Omega Mode(that was made because people wouldn't try out other stages online, which had so much lag that it wasn't ever viable for competitive play. It's pretty much a casual way to play. Even going so far as forcing items heavily, with no real balance to it). All For Glory literally did was just add another interesting option. FD just isn't that balanced, which Battlefield does better, so it seriously isn't a competitive setting based upon the stage, just the fact it's 1 on 1 without items instead.

 

[Deleted member]

BTW, I finally played Rhythm Heaven as a loansie, aka the domain of the infamous Chorus Kids.

I don't understand HOW these guys would work as playable characters. But, I also have to point out that, with the exception of Moai Doo-Wop, I absolutely suck at that game because I do not have any rhythm skills myself.

These were clearly entities that benefitted mostly from the Gematsu leak.

Hopefully, with a new regime working on character criteria, they will look long and hard at both content and demand. By "content", I mean "does the character work well without requiring a lot of excessive thinking to make them work?". I'm still adamant about my list of DLC hopefuls, but I also stick with my mentality that Isaac should be one of the first, if not the first, DLC newcomer.

 

[pupNapoleon]

This new lengthy interview from Sakurai, any new opinions? I am on my phone or I'd leave it here linked.

It actually solidifies the thoughts I already had overall, particularly as it comes to Lucas, who I now believe may actually have never been planned as anything more than a Ness palette swap. The fact that Dr Mario was originally just this, despite known Mo e differences, and in part the near further confirmation of Gematsu knowing early draft and discussing the debate between Ness or Lucas, makes me think Lucas was originally planned to be a character swap, and Sakurai later felt it would upset fans of Lucas.​

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

This new lengthy interview from Sakurai, any new opinions? I am on my phone or I'd leave it here linked.

It actually solidifies the thoughts I already had overall, particularly as it comes to Lucas, who I now believe may actually have never been planned as anything more than a Ness palette swap. The fact that Dr Mario was originally just this, despite known Mo e differences, and in part the near further confirmation of Gematsu knowing early draft and discussing the debate between Ness or Lucas, makes me think Lucas was originally planned to be a character swap, and Sakurai later felt it would upset fans of Lucas.​

No. Just no

 

[pupNapoleon]

No. Just no

Valuable rebuttal.

If Sakurai was willing to make Dr Mario a costume alt of Mario, despite the differences, then I doubt he would hesitate to do the same to Lucas, particularly if we take to the idea that Gematsu was true.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

Valuable rebuttal.

If Sakurai was willing to make Dr Mario a costume alt of Mario, despite the differences, then I doubt he would hesitate to do the same to Lucas, particularly if we take to the idea that Gematsu was true.

Doctor mario has like 3 unique moves, all of lucas' normals are unique and even his specials are unique enough. Lucas being a ness alt makes no ****ing sense whatsoever

 

[pupNapoleon]

Doctor mario has like 3 unique moves, all of lucas' normals are unique and even his specials are unique enough. Lucas being a ness alt makes no ****ing sense whatsoever

I'd like to see how different Sakurai thinks Lucas and Ness actually are, because I think that fans of Wolf and Lucas (and Roy, and others) tend to exaggerate the differences to make it seem as if they have nothing in common with the characters they spawn from at all.
As differently as the playstyles end up in a competitive scene, this does not mean that they don't have more in common and altered from a basic technical/

There is obviously a reason that a lay newcomer can pick up Brawl and draw direct parallels between Lucas and Ness, and it goes beyond aesthetic and into gameplay. I believe this is an in fact intentional choice to make sure they feel of the same universe, as they should, but they are by no stretch all that contrasting of characters simply because they are different.

Sakurai also looks at each game as a new entry into a series; Lucas and Ness had altered movesets in the last game, it does not mean it was necessary in this game- quite clearly based on their origins they could, in fact, play identically if so desired, and it would be absolutely dandy. If character palette swaps existed last game, I'm sure they would have been such.

Going back to Mario and Dr Mario- they actually play about as differently as Lucas and Ness. Even if only a few moves are changed, they are stil in cerain ways, more variant than the differences between Lucas and Ness's specials, which are merely altered properties. Moreover, the fact that the characters DO have different properties, weight speed etc, makes it as much of a moot point- because the moves do all play differently from Mario to Doctor, as differently as most of Lucas to Ness. The most extreme difference Lucas gets is a snake. If Sakurai was willing to remove all of those 'super fanboy important differences in playstyle' in his original conception of the Doc, I've no doubt he would have for Lucas- especially as the altnernative is his likely dismissal of the game forever.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

I'd like to see how different Sakurai thinks Lucas and Ness actually are, because I think that fans of Wolf and Lucas (and Roy, and others) tend to exaggerate the differences to make it seem as if they have nothing in common with the characters they spawn from at all.
As differently as the playstyles end up in a competitive scene, this does not mean that they don't have more in common and altered from a basic technical/

There is obviously a reason that a lay newcomer can pick up Brawl and draw direct parallels between Lucas and Ness, and it goes beyond aesthetic and into gameplay. I believe this is an in fact intentional choice to make sure they feel of the same universe, as they should, but they are by no stretch all that contrasting of characters simply because they are different.

Sakurai also looks at each game as a new entry into a series; Lucas and Ness had altered movesets in the last game, it does not mean it was necessary in this game- quite clearly based on their origins they could, in fact, play identically if so desired, and it would be absolutely dandy. If character palette swaps existed last game, I'm sure they would have been such.

Are you actually trying to compare Doctor mario and lucas? Lucas' moveset apart from specials is nothing like ness', all his tilts all his smashes all his aerials are original. Even to a newcomer the differences between them are quite clear, they both have completely different playstyles and uses. Of course some parallels can be drawn between them as he is still a semi-clone but he's still unique enough to warrant that slot

Don't even start with wolf, coming from a wolf main. Fox and wolf have little to no similarities. He shares specials which are different enough and have completely different uses. I refuse to acknowledge wolf as a clone

 

[ThePenguinGamer0]

Has anyone here been discussing the possibility of Rayman making it in yet? I think he is the prime choice when picking DLC characters because:

a) Ubisoft could fund the development of the character.

b) They already have a model for the character in the game. (See his trophy)

c) His 20th anniversary is this year.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Are you actually trying to compare Doctor mario and lucas? Lucas' moveset apart from specials is nothing like ness', all his tilts all his smashes all his aerials are original. Even to a newcomer the differences between them are quite clear, they both have completely different playstyles and uses.

Don't even start with wolf, coming from a wolf main. Fox and wolf have little to no similarities. He shares specials which are different enough and have completely different uses. I refuse to acknowledge wolf as a clone

And my point is that your fanboy refusal may simply be blinding you to what is there.
Ultimately, I merely postulated a substantiated theory based further on new evidence from Sakurai himself, and your response was a sentimental attachment to Wolf.

In a metagame, with hardcore players, yes-- the minute differences between characters are much more extreme. Yet, to a casual crowd, these don't mean NEARLY as much, and as we see more and more aptly drilled in, this game is developed as a casual game, at least from Sakurai's perspective.
And on a casual level, yes- Lucas ABSOLUTELY plays similarly to Ness.

Has anyone here been discussing the possibility of Rayman making it in yet? I think he is the prime choice when picking DLC characters because:

a) Ubisoft could fund the development of the character.

b) They already have a model for the character in the game. (See his trophy)

c) His 20th anniversary is this year.

I've thought often about this, and I do think Rayman is a probable character if DLC becomes active. Point A is what I've gestated on the most, and seems to be the best option for Nintendo.
The undeniably strange behavior of Rayman in the revealing stage- showing him off right before Lucin, to build a new wave of hype, completely unnecessary, as we were getting our first known and dated character trailer-- was incredibly baffling. It was almost as if it was a call from Nintendo to Ubisoft to show what the fan demand would be, and ask them to call out a bluff

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

And my point is that your fanboy refusal may simply be blinding you to what is there.
Ultimately, I merely postulated a substantiated theory based further on new evidence from Sakurai himself, and your response was a sentimental attachment to Wolf.

In a metagame, with hardcore players, yes-- the minute differences between characters are much more extreme. Yet, to a casual crowd, these don't mean NEARLY as much, and as we see more and more aptly drilled in, this game is developed as a casual game, at least from Sakurai's perspective.
And on a casual level, yes- Lucas ABSOLUTELY plays similarly to Ness.


I've thought often about this, and I do think Rayman is a probable character if DLC becomes active. Point A is what I've gestated on the most, and seems to be the best option for Nintendo.
The undeniably strange behavior of Rayman in the revealing stage- showing him off right before Lucin, to build a new wave of hype, completely unnecessary, as we were getting our first known and dated character trailer-- was incredibly baffling. It was almost as if it was a call from Nintendo to Ubisoft to show what the fan demand would be, and ask them to call out a bluff

I refuse to accept him as a clone because he isn't, plain and simple. Even a casual player can see the clear differences between them. When comparing both fox and wolf their playstyles are nothing alike, it's like comparing Kirby and Jigglypuff, yes they share the same base but they clearly have huge differences.

You're not giving casual players enough credit, yes if they only know how to use the B button these guys are clones but other than that even the differences in playstyle are massive even on a casual level

 

[pupNapoleon]

I refuse to accept him as a clone because he isn't, plain and simple. Even a casual player can see the clear differences between them. When comparing both fox and wolf their playstyles are nothing alike, it's like comparing Kirby and Jigglypuff, yes they share the same base but they clearly have huge differences.

You're not giving casual players enough credit, yes if they only know how to use the B button these guys are clones but other than that even the differences in playstyle are massive even on a casual level

The B button controls about half of the perceived moves a character has, with the other four being Smash, then grab, and final smash. All the other moves characters actually have might be smashboards casual player code, but certainly are not on the definitive radar to most casual players. Special moves are also the highlights!! What DEFINE a character.

All that said,

In a metagame, with hardcore players, yes-- the minute differences between characters are much more extreme. Yet, to a casual crowd, these don't mean NEARLY as much, and as we see more and more aptly drilled in, this game is developed as a casual game, at least from Sakurai's perspective.
And on a casual level, yes- Lucas ABSOLUTELY plays similarly to Ness.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

The B button controls about half of the perceived moves a character has, with the other four being Smash, then grab, and final smash. All the other moves characters actually have might be smashboards casual player code, but certainly are not on the definitive radar to most casual players. Special moves are also the highlights!! What DEFINE a character.

All that said,

A character has about 20 moves, ness and lucas share 5. That's only a 4th of their whole moveset

 

[pupNapoleon]

A character has about 20 moves, ness and lucas share 5. That's only a 4th of their whole moveset

And there are an infinite supply of numbers between 1 and 2, but that doesn't mean the average perspective is not that there are 0.

That may be a bad metaphor, but I addressed in my post that while there are more than a few moves, it doesnt mean they are all as prominent, or as notable.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

And there are an infinite supply of numbers between 1 and 2, but that doesn't mean the average perspective is not that there are 0.

That may be a bad metaphor, but I addressed in my post that while there are more than a few moves, it doesnt mean they are all as prominent, or as notable.

But there's still more to a character than their specials. The main part of a character that you use are a characters normal attacks

 

[Lilfut]

lmao@the guy saying squirtle and ivysaur are less notable than ice climbers

show a guy on the street squirtle and then show him the ice climbers and see which one he recognizes more quickly

 

[PKBeam]

casuals are capable of much more than many competitive players see them as. they are normal people with the ability to harness the amazing power of common sense but unlike competitives, they only have a basic knowledge of the game and its mindsets.

there is a very big difference between people new to smash and the other casuals.
a new player will see Lucas and Ness as identical.
experienced casuals will see them instead as (somewhat) similar.

specials define a character (in their series) but when comparing movesets they hold no more weight than normals.

Lucas, who I now believe may actually have never been planned as anything more than a Ness palette swap.

Lucas was planned to replace Ness in melee. it's much more likely that their similarities in their moveset was because of how Mother 3 worked.

 

[PSIBoy]

And my point is that your fanboy refusal may simply be blinding you to what is there.
Ultimately, I merely postulated a substantiated theory based further on new evidence from Sakurai himself, and your response was a sentimental attachment to Wolf.

In a metagame, with hardcore players, yes-- the minute differences between characters are much more extreme. Yet, to a casual crowd, these don't mean NEARLY as much, and as we see more and more aptly drilled in, this game is developed as a casual game, at least from Sakurai's perspective.
And on a casual level, yes- Lucas ABSOLUTELY plays similarly to Ness.

Okay, first I've mained both characters for two years before becoming a member of this site (now I consider myself in the gray area between casual and competitive) and I see them as completely different, barely semi-clone at worst. First, all of their special moves and final smashes were similar, but they all had different properties. In Brawl, PK Freeze was better as camping and possibly edge guarding if used right and overall more practical than PK Flash. PK Flash only has raw KO power for edgeguarding. Lucas's PK Fire is also geared more towards spacing while Ness's is for damage and combos. Lucas PK Thunder isn't as easy to gimp, but Ness's KO's far earlier. Lucas's PSI Magnet can actually be used as an attack, unlike Ness's.

When you factor in all their moves, Ness's style is far more combo and KO'ed geared than Lucas, with PK Fire to grab and follow ups out of grab and b-throw netting KO's after 100%, b-air and u-air also being reliable, n-air eventually becoming one, and PKT2 flattening opponents around 50%. Lucas is more spacing, damage building, and reading. Unlike Ness, his smash attacks are pretty much his only reliable KO moves around 100. PK Fire and PSI Magnet can be used to space opponents out. PKT2 does a lot of hits and builds almost 30% and n-air and d-air also builds damage well. Lucas can net early kills with spikes, but there are sweetspots on b-air/d-air which you have to connect with to do so. Then, the Lucas player has to get hard reads or something to connect with one of his smashes. Around 140%, f-air and b-throw can KO as well, but even then that requires reads since Lucas's f-air is one slow big hit and Lucas's grab isn't exactly safe when it misses.

In post-Brawl, it wouldn't make sense to make Lucas or Ness into the alt of the other since they a) do not play remotely similar, and b) only have 6 moves (counting final smash) similar, yet they are different in properties and application.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well... to say that Squirtle and Ivysaur are not as popular/wereoutright replaced/unnecessary, compared to the characters you listed, is just incorrect. The are without question more profitable and popular to Nintendo.
Unnecessary is merely your personal opinion. I personally find Lucas to be unnecessary.

Not when Mother 3 finally gets localised!

Spoiler

 

[PKBeam]

Okay, first I've mained both characters for two years before becoming a member of this site (now I consider myself in the gray area between casual and competitive) and I see them as completely different, barely semi-clone at worst. First, all of their special moves and final smashes were similar, but they all had different properties. In Brawl, PK Freeze was better as camping and possibly edge guarding if used right and overall more practical than PK Flash. PK Flash only has raw KO power for edgeguarding. Lucas's PK Fire is also geared more towards spacing while Ness's is for damage and combos. Lucas PK Thunder isn't as easy to gimp, but Ness's KO's far earlier. Lucas's PSI Magnet can actually be used as an attack, unlike Ness's.

When you factor in all their moves, Ness's style is far more combo and KO'ed geared than Lucas, with PK Fire to grab and follow ups out of grab and b-throw netting KO's after 100%, b-air and u-air also being reliable, n-air eventually becoming one, and PKT2 flattening opponents around 50%. Lucas is more spacing, damage building, and reading. Unlike Ness, his smash attacks are pretty much his only reliable KO moves around 100. PK Fire and PSI Magnet can be used to space opponents out. PKT2 does a lot of hits and builds almost 30% and n-air and d-air also builds damage well. Lucas can net early kills with spikes, but there are sweetspots on b-air/d-air which you have to connect with to do so. Then, the Lucas player has to get hard reads or something to connect with one of his smashes. Around 140%, f-air and b-throw can KO as well, but even then that requires reads since Lucas's f-air is one slow big hit and Lucas's grab isn't exactly safe when it misses.

In post-Brawl, it wouldn't make sense to make Lucas or Ness into the alt of the other since they a) do not play remotely similar, and b) only have 6 moves (counting final smash) similar, yet they are different in properties and application.

They share like four special moves without Final Smash. I wouldn't even count PKF as similar because of how vastly different it is.

 

[PSIBoy]

They share like four special moves without Final Smash. I wouldn't even count PKF as similar because of how vastly different it is.

I counted f-smash, but I see where you're coming from. I can see where you're coming from with PKF since the only thing similar about their PKF is that it's fire and it shoots out in front of them with similar range. I can also see where they're coming from when they say they are similar in that regard, but apparently 5 'similar' moves combined with Lucas's similar body shape, weight, and speed are enough for many people to scream "CLONE!" even though I don't even consider them semi-clones at all.

 

[PKBeam]

Fsmash doesn't really do anything by itself. Like you might as well count Peach and Ness as clones because of Nair and because Fair and Dair are "so similar".

Oh, and PKT2 does about 40 damage.

Dair -> Dtilt lock -> Usmash works on Jiggs at 60. All you have to do is land at least the last two hits and you get a free Dtilt lock if they don't tech/DI. Nair -> Footstool -> Dtilt lock, if you can pull it off, will kill as early as 30.

Bthrow isn't a very good killer. I think you meant Dthrow.

 

[PSIBoy]

Fsmash doesn't really do anything by itself. Like you might as well count Peach and Ness as clones because of Nair and because Fair and Dair are "so similar".

Oh, and PKT2 does about 40 damage.

Dair -> Dtilt lock -> Usmash works on Jiggs at 60. All you have to do is land at least the last two hits and you get a free Dtilt lock if they don't tech/DI. Nair -> Footstool -> Dtilt lock, if you can pull it off, will kill as early as 30.

Bthrow isn't a very good killer. I think you meant Dthrow.

F-smash just because of similar animation and reflect properties. Otherwise yeah, rather different.

Lucas PKT2 does 40? Thought it did less.

Nice tip, but I can't really see where you're going with it.

I've killed with Lucas's b-throw the other day in Brawl playing against Lv 9 CPU Mr. Game & Watch at 130% at the edge. I've also scored several KO's with it around 140. And I've never killed with d-throw. Perhaps I haven't been using it enough.

 

[PKBeam]

Bthrow is nice if your opponent can't DI. Otherwise Dthrow is better. Uthrow kills about 10-15% later than Dthrow.

anyway back to topic Lucas is his own character and he's not a clone.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Okay, first I've mained both characters for two years before becoming a member of this site (now I consider myself in the gray area between casual and competitive) and I see them as completely different, barely semi-clone at worst. First, all of their special moves and final smashes were similar, but they all had different properties. In Brawl, PK Freeze was better as camping and possibly edge guarding if used right and overall more practical than PK Flash. PK Flash only has raw KO power for edgeguarding. Lucas's PK Fire is also geared more towards spacing while Ness's is for damage and combos. Lucas PK Thunder isn't as easy to gimp, but Ness's KO's far earlier. Lucas's PSI Magnet can actually be used as an attack, unlike Ness's.

When you factor in all their moves, Ness's style is far more combo and KO'ed geared than Lucas, with PK Fire to grab and follow ups out of grab and b-throw netting KO's after 100%, b-air and u-air also being reliable, n-air eventually becoming one, and PKT2 flattening opponents around 50%. Lucas is more spacing, damage building, and reading. Unlike Ness, his smash attacks are pretty much his only reliable KO moves around 100. PK Fire and PSI Magnet can be used to space opponents out. PKT2 does a lot of hits and builds almost 30% and n-air and d-air also builds damage well. Lucas can net early kills with spikes, but there are sweetspots on b-air/d-air which you have to connect with to do so. Then, the Lucas player has to get hard reads or something to connect with one of his smashes. Around 140%, f-air and b-throw can KO as well, but even then that requires reads since Lucas's f-air is one slow big hit and Lucas's grab isn't exactly safe when it misses.

In post-Brawl, it wouldn't make sense to make Lucas or Ness into the alt of the other since they a) do not play remotely similar, and b) only have 6 moves (counting final smash) similar, yet they are different in properties and application.

Once again, I did not say they play similarly for meta game play.
Yet this game is targeted for people to pick up and play, and that is a large bracket of the audience.
To the person picking up the game, if they choose Lucas, Ness, Mario, and Peach, I'd place money on the notion that they look at the first two and say they are similar. All tweaks aside, it doesn't matter until you get experienced with a character. I don't care if the trajectory of impact for one move changs the entire game for people who know all the characters inside and out, and come to a smash forum to post about it. If an individual cannot take a step back from this and see that Lucas and Ness are similar, or at least, cannot fathom how others would think this, then I question what it is they watch when they look at the game.