Social The Zero Suit/Samus in Shorts Social

[Shaya]

Did a flip jump wall jump on battlefield into a spike on a recovering ness today.
GOT EM.
Replay was saved and I'm pretty sure I know the owner of WiiU that has it.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

One of my friends who is a Sheik main finally caught up skillwise.
The game is fun again.
Not having tournaments anywhere near me is suffering.

 

[pichuthedk]

So apparently Zss X2 is totally legitimate when you are not losing your **** laughing every other minute (both inside and out)

http://www.twitch.tv/egeofficial/v/5097580
We play 2 sets at 6hours and 15 minutes.

Bread and I go to town and introduce A new double ZSS AT the Zair Escalator (lawl) and even some cute little play in the first couple seconds of a match, Man just some of our games were xD, You can watch both sets if you'd like however incoming Frauds Alert we were having so much fun with doubles that in our second set we totally boiled over and became spaghetti monsters xD.

We ended up being so good that we got dq'd (lapse of judgement due to questionable event management), After which we played the people we would have played in friendly tourney style sets to see if we would have won.

Internet page loading johns = double posts sorry T.T

Did a flip jump wall jump on battlefield into a spike on a recovering ness today.
GOT EM.
Replay was saved and I'm pretty sure I know the owner of WiiU that has it.

I actually did something similar to a Ness before, Flip jump kick spike before he hit him self with pk thunder and I grabbed the ledge and dropped down to re flip jump kick spike him, Self gratifying xD.

 

[Silvalfo]

hi

I'm a dedicated Falcon main on the very beginning of a journey to learn ZSS. Both are fast, have powerful and quick punishing tools, amazing mobility, can uair -> uair awl dai and are completely sexy, so catching up with a lot of things will be easy, but learning to control my own projectiles and a decent recovery, not being able to rely on dashgrab nearly all the time and being lighter and floatier will sure be fairly more difficult.

So expect to see me asking stuff and reading/commenting here. I hope we can all have a good experience.

Peace!

 

[Octavium]

hi

I'm a dedicated Falcon main on the very beginning of a journey to learn ZSS. Both are fast, have powerful and quick punishing tools, amazing mobility, can uair -> uair awl dai and are completely sexy, so catching up with a lot of things will be easy, but learning to control my own projectiles and a decent recovery, not being able to rely on dashgrab nearly all the time and being lighter and floatier will sure be fairly more difficult.

So expect to see me asking stuff and reading/commenting here. I hope we can all have a good experience.

Peace!

Welcome then! ZSS is surely a character you'l be able to show your moves with, she has so much style and some of the most awesome looking kill setups in the game!

Not only are they both somewhat realistic fighters but they're also the only two characters who wear skintight body suits. These monsters were made to wreck people with style!

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

GODDAMNIT @ Shaya WHY DIDN'T YOU WARN ME ABOUT THE FEELS OF EPISODE 10 I WASN'T READY AT ALL

 

[David Viran]

I heard that zero has a bounty on him. It only makes sense that a ZSS player beats him *cough* @Nairo.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Imo evo could be the fist tournament ZeRo drops, simply because of customs.
Oh and in @Nairo I trust, but I'm sure he knows that deep down in his heart ;_;7

That said we have a lot of great players. @ NickRiddle seems very lively too lately.

 

[David Viran]

Samus is a bounty hunter despite never really collecting bountys but there's a first time for everything.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Samus is a bounty hunter despite never really collecting bountys but there's a first time for everything.

I think it's not big enough for her taste.
Like it has to be a huge monster and a planet after that.

 

[pichuthedk]

So some random but I guess could be slightly useful info, we can apparently reset people who don't like to tech with side b which is funny as ****.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I've been roughly looking into what's possible to do on reaction and such. That has lead me here:

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/

I'm curious to see what other people get. Granted, this is simple reaction time (response to a known stimulus), but it could still serve as an interesting look at what is possible for us in reaction-type scenarios. For example! I did five tests and averaged 187 milliseconds. Take that result and multiply by 60 to get the number of frames that is. So I react, on average, in 11.22 frames.

It's interesting with respect to trying to determine... if I could side B someone out of a roll on reaction. Using ZSS' frame data as an example... her roll takes 27 frames and becomes vulnerable on frame 18. Side B is active on frame 22. Add my 11 frames (round down to be generous, I guess), and we get a 33 frame time-until-hitbox. Is that good enough? Nope. The roll will be done well in advanced.

So I'll be looking at more things like that in the future. If anything interesting comes up, I'll ping here.

Also! Check out the spacing visualization thread for an interesting look at Down B! It reaches farther off stage (while ZSS remains on stage) than I would have first anticipated.

 

[Shaya]

A few years back I managed around the 190-210 range, now albeit just woken up I'm at 260-290, sighhhhhhh

However, reaction is slightly different to anticipation. With longer warnings of imminent things within the game (like jumping/or someone rolling on landing or whatever) I think it's feasible to react faster when you have your planned action plus your visual trigger ready. As the timings in this game are consistent over the randomness of the benchmark test.

 

[ぱみゅ]

A similar example, and a bit more practical due to the decision-making process. are Mario Party's timed minigames. I particularly remember one in which there are three bulbs, one to the left, the right, and above you, and whenever they light up, you had to press that direction. You press another one, or are too slow, you get shoked. If all three flash you must press down to avoid the shock, and hold it until it wear off to stand up, or else it would shock you, and obviously, if you hold it for too long another bulb will light up and you might miss it.
If that one game had a timer for every press, it would have more accurate results to test our reaction for any given game.

Still, my reaction time has always been atrocious, I averaged 245ms on that page, so translated to Smash... yeah...

 

[IsmaR]

Or just play WarioWare/minigames from Kirby.

The samurai one from Super Star Ultra took hundreds of attempts for me to beat even on the easiest difficulty.

 

[Shaya]

Food for thought:

Full hops are undervalued. Can double aerial, reach much higher speeds in weaving + fast falling, and I find it easier to time hits to land on grounded opponents. No one has reliable speeds for catching up with her full hop rises and flip jump is stupid if something looks like it'll go wrong, otherwise fast fall air dodges time with its auto cancel pretty well.

Aiming for the backwards part of up air frame traps air dodges and it's very easy to practically always be facing this direction in juggle situations. You can choose to weave backwards further so that the front part of up air is applicable, you can also choose to fair instead which I find usually single hits in a very follow up prone way. Or to be more intuitive, back air (but smaller active frames, requires more conditions [right part of your jump / their rise or fall] to hit with).

 

[pichuthedk]

Yeah I've always thought about the back hit of up air , I like getting falling reverse up airs into boost kicks occasionally on those tall chars.

Also @ Shaya you always have those kawaii pictures xD.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Yeah I've always thought about the back hit of up air , I like getting falling reverse up airs into boost kicks occasionally on those tall chars.

Also @ Shaya you always have those kawaii pictures xD.

It's from Hyperdimension Neptunia. The Anime and Games are kawaii as ****.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Also weeb as ****

Full jumps are nice if you're zoning... short hops are nice if you're pressuring. Full jumps leave you more vulnerable so obviously not as applicable in close ranges. That said ZSS' moveset works so nicely with her shorthop that I feel like full jumps are hardly applicable.

 

[David Viran]

I found a way to ledge cancel flip jump in either direction with the forward momentum. You have to have c stick set to smash and when you do flip jump hold forward like usual and hit away on the c stick. You have to flick it or else you lose all your momentum. That is to ledge cancel it so your facing away from the momentum.

 

[pichuthedk]

I found a way to ledge cancel flip jump in either direction with the forward momentum. You have to have c stick set to smash and when you do flip jump hold forward like usual and hit away on the c stick. You have to flick it or else you lose all your momentum. That is to ledge cancel it so your facing away from the momentum.

The legend of metroid and the Oracle of Bairs.

 

[Take 5]

For Glory highlight of the day. Looking like pre-patch Wario...

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

For Glory highlight of the day. Looking like pre-patch Wario...

I know the other way round is possible but I've never seen this.
It has something to do with the acceleration calculation. Just like when we stall in the air with dAir after we got launched.

 

[NickRiddle]

Pretty sure GWs used a dtilt.
It has wind, and pushed you up.

 

[Shaya]

It could've been up-b too, the windbox comes out before the hitbox and invincibility does, so you can often have that interaction

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Oh how this would make for a hilarious doubles strategy. SUPER BOOST KIIIIICK --- GO!

Also, I've been checking out what our moves can do vs a shielding opponent... the short of it is, you don't really want to make contact with a shielding opponent. I still may group all relevant results together and make a thread of it when I'm finished.

 

[Shaya]

Short dash dsmash and well spaced side-b is essentially it.
Made a post or two about this a while back.

There's also backwards facing stance in the air where you try to bait/pressure with well spaced bairs and wavebounced paralyzer.

 

[pichuthedk]

I guess he probably could have used down tilt out of the stun but I donno that was weird AF.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

As far as I can see from the frame data.... Even down smash is really unsafe on shield. By more than a dozen frames? It's surprising.

 

[David Viran]

Are you taking into account sheild drop too?

 

[DeLux]

Imma make a combo video pretty soon called "Going Full Horizontal"

It will be life changing

 

[pichuthedk]

Oh how this would make for a hilarious doubles strategy. SUPER BOOST KIIIIICK --- GO!

Also, I've been checking out what our moves can do vs a shielding opponent... the short of it is, you don't really want to make contact with a shielding opponent. I still may group all relevant results together and make a thread of it when I'm finished.

Uhh Actually I did that exact thing you are probably picturing at some point in a doubles tourney with a g@w main in my region.

Basically someone was launched and while g@w kept blowing them up one time I jumped up and boost kicked them off screen via the wind box.

I believed I could fly until I came back down.

Also please based Tuen regarding your findings on our moves and shield is definitely something I need ingrained into my mind, sometimes you just get over zealous or pray to God they let go or don't power shield.

 

[David Viran]

Uhh Actually I did that exact thing you are probably picturing at some point in a doubles tourney with a g@w main in my region.

Basically someone was launched and while g@w kept blowing them up one time I jumped up and boost kicked them off screen via the wind box.

I believed I could fly until I came back down.

Also please based Tuen regarding your findings on our moves and shield is definitely something I need ingrained into my mind, sometimes you just get over zealous or pray to God they let go or don't power shield.

I just found out that you can be in a disadvantaged position if you mess up a PS. The sheild lock frames where you can't drop your sheild carry over after they hit your sheild meaning they take longer before they are able to drop there sheild. Doesn't affect natural oos options tho so watch out but a failed PS attempt could give your opponent frame advantage as long as they don't misspace.

 

[pichuthedk]

I seriously need to do some research or find some crash course on that subject entirely because I have always heard about the concept of shield stun , frame advantage and stuff when I was low level but it was realms beyond me.

Even trying to figure out her frame data has me pulling out my hair, Honestly sucks but understanding this concept more is just another thing lacking from my game.

Why is my brain mush? T.T

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I just found out that you can be in a disadvantaged position if you mess up a PS. The sheild lock frames where you can't drop your sheild carry over after they hit your sheild meaning they take longer before they are able to drop there sheild. Doesn't affect natural oos options tho so watch out but a failed PS attempt could give your opponent frame advantage as long as they don't misspace.

Oh, this is very relevant to what I'm trying to find. So, here's my understanding...

1-3: Power shield
4-11: locked into shield [11 frames minimum]
12-18: shield drop lag (7 frames)

Reference = @ Shaya

Are you saying that if we had a frame progression as follows (stun/etc is made up), the minimum lock frames carry over?

[1-7, shield] --> [8, hit] --> [9-15, stun/etc] --> [16-19, remaining lock frames] --> [20-26, shield drop]

If this is the case, spacing outside of OOS options would put your foe in a pretty tight bind. Am I also correct in saying that you can do an OOS option out of any of those lock frames too? I.E. in the made up example, jumping on frame 17?

Cause in Shaya's thread on shields, this statement is made: "minimum shielding time never applies if your shield gets hit by anything." This implies that the made-up scenario I've posed would rather go like this...

[1-7, shield] --> [8, hit] --> [9-15, stun/etc] --> [16-22, shield drop]

Since the attacker is often subject to many of the same hitstun frames that the defender is (barring the use of projectiles), it's pretty hard to get an advantage when you purposefully strike someone's shield.

So ah, yeah. Which one of these is correct? It could have some big impacts on what we can and cannot do safely.

 

[David Viran]

The first example is correct.

 

[pichuthedk]

Uhh so would examples of spacing outside of these OoS options be like max range side b's even wave bounced ones and retreating max range Zairs?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Uhh so would examples of spacing outside of these OoS options be like max range side b's even wave bounced ones and retreating max range Zairs?

Depends on the OoS option. For someone like Mii Brawler's Helicopter Kick, the options you listed may be the only applicable ones. But say... ZSS vs ZSS. We can't boost kick another ZSS OoS if she spaces her nair perfectly. Zair is another interesting option that I haven't really looked into. I guess I have a lot to check out this week.

Also, the biggest grain of salt on all of this is movement between a hit and a confirm. A max range, fully charged paralyzer bullet may leave us with advantage frames on shield (shield drop or not), but despite ZSS gaining control first... she has to close that gap to make a punish. I don't know how to categorize movement with respect to frames at this moment in time, and that will likely become a big "what if" for hit confirm analysis.

The first example is correct.

Not to throw out doubt, but do you have a reference? I'm curious about how this was found and/or the history of that knowledge.

 

[David Viran]

Depends on the OoS option. For someone like Mii Brawler's Helicopter Kick, the options you listed may be the only applicable ones. But say... ZSS vs ZSS. We can't boost kick another ZSS OoS if she spaces her nair perfectly. Zair is another interesting option that I haven't really looked into. I guess I have a lot to check out this week.

Also, the biggest grain of salt on all of this is movement between a hit and a confirm. A max range, fully charged paralyzer bullet may leave us with advantage frames on shield (shield drop or not), but despite ZSS gaining control first... she has to close that gap to make a punish. I don't know how to categorize movement with respect to frames at this moment in time, and that will likely become a big "what if" for hit confirm analysis.



Not to throw out doubt, but do you have a reference? I'm curious about how this was found and/or the history of that knowledge.

All you need to do is go onto training mode with two controllers and hit sheild with a move when holding sheild for a while then hit sheild after it just comes up but not a PS. You can see the difference. BTW Bair would be safe against helicopter kick because you could sheild it in time. Bair is like zss's safest move on sheild and uair is surprisingly tied with Bair but doesn't really have as much horizontal range.

 

[DeLux]

This does not belong in the social thread you anti-social ********