The Yoshi Labs

[Delta-cod]

Well, there's an easy way to check. Go into a normal match, get the character with the move you already know the breaking point for to high rage percents, get Yoshi to the last percentage before the break, and run the test again. If Yoshi gets broken, then we know rage effects it.

However, we'll need to control for stale moves/fresh move bonus, if they exist. In training, moves don't stale, but is there a fresh move bonus?

Edit: Shado mentioned that freshness bonus wasn't in training mode in the other thread, so the test is more difficult to carry out.

 

[noft]

Wow I just found out RAGE DOESNT EFFECT YOSHIS DOUBLE JUMP! I thought it did lol

Do you mean rage doesnt mess with the super armor? Do you know how long it takes for the super armor to wear off of the 2nd jump if it was turned into an ariel attack,Ive had a few matches where i did an attack out of 2ndd jump and pressed through the attack that shoulda killed me but instead got the kill bcuz of the super armor. Earlier today i fast fell an upair out of a 2nd jump Some how didnt die or get bothered by the attack and got a kill winning me a game changing trade off. Ive been in a situation where someone tried to spike me but i double jumped through it with a fair and got the spike instead. mmm thard to explain in thi pitch dark room and no light up keyboard.,

 

[YoHeKing]

Freshness bonus?

 

[ReturningFall]

Freshness bonus?

"If a move is not in the list of recently-used moves, it earns a freshness bonus of 1.05x damage...As the damage of a hitbox is a main component in the knockback formula this results in a much more noticeable drop in the knockback of a stale attack"

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Stale-Move_Negation

 

[YoHeKing]

Hm so. I can just bring the percentages down just alittle bit? 1.05x is a extremely small boost. Or should I just leave them?

 

[noft]

@ YoHeKing

do you know the frame data for landing into shield, if u do it to early u air dodge into ground and the shield will come out delayed but if u time it just right itll come out immediately and ull keep a little horizontal momentum if u had any, ive also noticed that if u time jab at the right moment when u release shield your jab will come out pretty fast, idk if its just called perfect timing or what ever but is something i didnt notice until i did it by accident. i never used a jab outa shield before then but it seems pretty viable, ive been seeing alot of crazy crap when im in the zone, mashin fast falls out short hops into ffnair and i get wonky ass slides to appear or
a reverse sliding back wards upsmash. this is alot to be posting without vids on it, was just wondering if u had insight on this before i dive into the lab with it.

 

[YoHeKing]

@ YoHeKing

do you know the frame data for landing into shield, if u do it to early u air dodge into ground and the shield will come out delayed but if u time it just right itll come out immediately and ull keep a little horizontal momentum if u had any, ive also noticed that if u time jab at the right moment when u release shield your jab will come out pretty fast, idk if its just called perfect timing or what ever but is something i didnt notice until i did it by accident. i never used a jab outa shield before then but it seems pretty viable, ive been seeing alot of crazy crap when im in the zone, mashin fast falls out short hops into ffnair and i get wonky *** slides to appear or
a reverse sliding back wards upsmash. this is alot to be posting without vids on it, was just wondering if u had insight on this before i dive into the lab with it.

Never happend to me. You should show me a video or somthing. I do know if you do an aerial or just juml out of sheild and hold sheild it should instently turn into sheild right away. Also you should include yoshis auto cancel with down air and back air before the active hitbox is shown.

Every once in awhile ill cancel a roll half way through with somthing and i can never figure out how to do it. Also I have done frame canceling down airs with yoshi which means Yoshi has the active hitbox of his down air as he touches ground but no lag at all.

Also I might have found a double jump cancel wave land tech.

 

[Skitrel]

Reviving this thread as it was one of the more useful/better ones.

Where does everyone stand on current usefulness of various techs Yoshi has? Offstage wavebounce egglay looks to have been very promising but I have yet to see any Yoshi perform it in tournament or anthers.

So, the question is... Is it too difficult? Missing it results in eggroll and a guaranteed lost stock it seems. Has nobody gotten consistent enough with it to actually make use of it?

I get it 80% of the time but that's not good enough for competitive yet. I feel like off stage wavebounce egglay is a key part of Yoshi gameplay improving. If it doesn't kill with the egglay it sets up stage spikes with run off bair.

 

[YoHeKing]

Reviving this thread as it was one of the more useful/better ones.

Where does everyone stand on current usefulness of various techs Yoshi has? Offstage wavebounce egglay looks to have been very promising but I have yet to see any Yoshi perform it in tournament or anthers.

So, the question is... Is it too difficult? Missing it results in eggroll and a guaranteed lost stock it seems. Has nobody gotten consistent enough with it to actually make use of it?

I get it 80% of the time but that's not good enough for competitive yet. I feel like off stage wavebounce egglay is a key part of Yoshi gameplay improving. If it doesn't kill with the egglay it sets up stage spikes with run off bair.

The problem is... Alot of people don't stand right on the edge when fighting Yoshi.

 

[Skitrel]

The problem is... Alot of people don't stand right on the edge when fighting Yoshi.

I think you've missed what I'm talking about.. Wavebounce egglay's benefit isn't in recovering to the ledge. It's in edgeguarding itself.

This is what I'm talking about, from earlier in the thread. https://vine.co/v/OT9A3xngnzm

The problem I see with it is that if you do the input incorrectly you get eggroll. Eggroll from that location is a 100% guaranteed death.

My assumption is that the only reason we've never seen this done in tournament is because nobody has put the work in to become consistent with the input yet.

This move would change the Yoshi meta significantly. The question is - Can any of you do it reliably yet without getting eggroll?

 

[YoHeKing]

I know noft can actually. Ive never seen him mess it up really. But... Egg lay kinda gives you an extra jump so... It really cant gimp ever if you mash buttons.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Do you think we can combo into stuff in a similiar fashion TINK does with his baby bombs?

 

[YoHeKing]

Do you think we can combo into stuff in a similiar fashion TINK does with his baby bombs?

Wait I don't get that comment ;-;

 

[YoHeKing]

So I found some potentially new techs?

• Bufferd lagless reverse down tilt and up tilt.
• Perfect frame pivots into crouch frame 1.
• A new tech that allows really easy fast edge trumps for Yoshi (new and faster method of nofts version?)

Some unexplained techs I still havnt figured out.

• Sliding down tilt
• Forward crawl momentum reverse (really long and connects with standing grab)
• Lagless grounded down air (sets up any move inclusing smashes into a true combo)
• Super down b slide on dolphino (me and noft found this one)
• Hitstun landing lag into frame 1 sheild sliding off platform.
• Yoshis weird floaty glitch after a missed or rarely slide off tech.
• Mid roll cancel into grab (ive seen this happen to my sheik and Yoshi plenty of times)
• Platform cancel aerial. (No landing lag)

 

[Skitrel]

So I found some potentially new techs?

• Yoshis weird floaty glitch after a missed or rarely slide off tech.

Is there footage of this anywhere?

 

[YoHeKing]

Is there footage videis anywhere?

I may have one of the sheild cancel platform thing. I will make a video of the really nice edge trump technique and bufferd up tilt and down tilt reverse. The unexplained ones some footage is found (nofts past streams).

 

[Skitrel]

Footage of any floaty glitch would be appreciated if you ever get it again. Anything that causes float properties at the ledge is potentially valuable.

 

[YoHeKing]

Footage of any floaty glitch would be appreciated if you ever get it again. Anything that causes float properties at the ledge is potentially valuable.

Im not sure exactly If it would or would not be. I was using the custom up B and was stuck in floating for about 4 seconds and I did not try to move backwards. So theres a possible way to set it up with regular up B and lets just hope what happens. My theory on how this starts is a well horizontal hit (yoshi getting hit) into a platform then using up b. It would be pretty cool if this benefits Yoshis regular edge toss and it had a weird amazing mechanic like Yoshis side B cancel on platforms.

Also did any of you guys know a jump cancel down B on halberds slopes set up a guaranteed kill? I noticed if you do it to high percents the opponent can tech it even if they look like there in hitstun.

One last thing. Does anyone have a chart of which characters you can do a grounded down B from the platforms of halberd and BF and connect both hits? I noticed alot of fast fallers don't get hit the second part of the grounded down B. If not I think it would be helpful to make one.

 

[YoHeKing]

I made this weird custom stage for testing new techs and seeing what are all the un acessable (so far) techs are. And I think I hit a jackpot. I found out Yoshis down B refreshes if you slide off a slope with it (yes therws a exploit) but sometimes it just cancels like the one time I did it with dreamlands wind.

Edit: its alright to double post if its important and not short apart?

 

[Delta-cod]

I feel like characters' hurtboxes are weird regarding the interaction of Down B through platforms. I feel like I've whiffed on Falcon even though his flailing arms/whatever were totally up through it. It might require really large characters to work. It's also probably quite DI dependent.

Also, double posting is usually okay after about a day, if it's important. That's the(or maybe just my) rule of thumb. Just edit stuff in in the mean time. Especially since the boards have been active lately.

 

[YoHeKing]

I feel like characters' hurtboxes are weird regarding the interaction of Down B through platforms. I feel like I've whiffed on Falcon even though his flailing arms/whatever were totally up through it. It might require really large characters to work. It's also probably quite DI dependent.

Also, double posting is usually okay after about a day, if it's important. That's the(or maybe just my) rule of thumb. Just edit stuff in in the mean time. Especially since the boards have been active lately.

Yeah Its a bit weird. Unless rage effects Yoshis fixed launching power on start up. DI really has no effect on the first hit.

 

[Delta-cod]

Just checked to make sure, turns out the first hit's knockback is indeed fixed. So then this list would be worth creating, although I imagine it'd be very small.

 

[YoHeKing]

Just checked to make sure, turns out the first hit's knockback is indeed fixed. So then this list would be worth creating, although I imagine it'd be very small.

Still would be nice to memorize It with a list. If no one else wants to do It I can( I have alot to work on+school and work but I can get it done... not very soon though). Possibly make a list of the platforms on delphino, lylat (left and right), smashville, T&C, battlefield dream land and duck hunt.

 

[Delta-cod]

I'll have time this weekend to do some of it, at the very least. I'll try some of the easier stages with constant platforms (BF/Halberd/Duck Hunt Tree), I might not have dream land yet lol.

 

[YoHeKing]

I found somthing even more interesting then the down air potential on BF. Up throw> double jump(to avoid get up attack)> down air(opponent slides on next platform>fall of down air(perfectly does 3 hit jab reset as long as you do it right as u fall off platform>down air into fast fall(right before end)>if they slide off platform down air once again right after you fall off platform (3 hit down air)> jab reset to down air.


Up throw>down air>down air> down air> down air> down air> down air.

Top level players could pull this off and this is a true frametrap combo(I guess thats a thing now?) on some characters and a read on alot of characters.

Down air on bottom platform to down air jab lock to down air (or any other follow up) pretty much works for almost everyone? Possibly not fast fallers but im not 100% sure.

Edit: I have really been practicing this and I pulled it off in a olimar. Ill test later if its a guareteed combo on him.

 

[Skitrel]

I found somthing even more interesting then the down air potential on BF. Up throw> double jump(to avoid get up attack)> down air(opponent slides on next platform>fall of down air(perfectly does 3 hit jab reset as long as you do it right as u fall off platform>down air into fast fall(right before end)>if they slide off platform down air once again right after you fall off platform (3 hit down air)> jab reset to down air.


Up throw>down air>down air> down air> down air> down air> down air.

Top level players could pull this off and this is a true frametrap combo(I guess thats a thing now?) on some characters and a read on alot of characters.

Down air on bottom platform to down air jab lock to down air (or any other follow up) pretty much works for almost everyone? Possibly not fast fallers but im not 100% sure.

Edit: I have really been practicing this and I pulled it off in a olimar. Ill test later if its a guareteed combo on him.

I've been using this for a while but in a different location. Dair against opponents that roll, jump or drop jump the ledge interrupts them. Fading dair away from an opponent at the edge causes them to slide off it, this then results in you being able to go for a second dair.

This is usually good for 40-50 damage against a recovering opponent, and of course because aerial dair sends opponents upwards you can fade away for the stage spike or let them pop upwards for an uair followup.

This also works very well in turning around edgeguard situations that are against you. Landing a dair during your recovery opens up this opportunity.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

DJ wont avoid get up attacks if we're using dair. dair is great on platforms though.

 

[YoHeKing]

DJ wont avoid get up attacks if we're using dair. dair is great on platforms though.

On the way up. Then as you fall down from DJ you use down air so they slide further.

Edit: inb4 everyone but yoshi gets top 32

 

[Peppa]

This sounds super lazy but I have a reason for it. I was over at a friends house playing some friendlies and started to do some weird stuff with bair and footstools. To be honest and I wish I did it was not intentional, but it got me wondering if the new bair possibly gives us any new footstool opportunities. I couldn't get it recorded since it wasn't my Wii and couldn't really just start labbing there. I'll be too busy to lab the next few days so I thought I'd ask you.
If it makes any difference it was on a sloped platform of halbred and it was something like bair drag into ground into footstool into bair footstool into fsmash.
Maybe I'm just going crazy and I wish I could be more specific but it was amazing and I've been obsessing about it. I wonder if it was just weird DI or me interrupting their jump right away or a once in a million weird thing that happened so I thought I'd bring it to you guys to see if you knew anything or can discover anything while I can't.
Hopefully the new bair has even more nice about it then just feeling better.

 

[Skitrel]

This sounds super lazy but I have a reason for it. I was over at a friends house playing some friendlies and started to do some weird stuff with bair and footstools. To be honest and I wish I did it was not intentional, but it got me wondering if the new bair possibly gives us any new footstool opportunities. I couldn't get it recorded since it wasn't my Wii and couldn't really just start labbing there. I'll be too busy to lab the next few days so I thought I'd ask you.
If it makes any difference it was on a sloped platform of halbred and it was something like bair drag into ground into footstool into bair footstool into fsmash.
Maybe I'm just going crazy and I wish I could be more specific but it was amazing and I've been obsessing about it. I wonder if it was just weird DI or me interrupting their jump right away or a once in a million weird thing that happened so I thought I'd bring it to you guys to see if you knew anything or can discover anything while I can't.
Hopefully the new bair has even more nice about it then just feeling better.

Bair cancels with basically absolutely zero lag if you land after just the first or second hit so I'm willing to say that this is quite possible.

I've been slowly building up consistency in using it the same way people use Fox's fair kicks into the ground. It's slowly gaining a lot more usage in my toolkit as I get consistency with it, in particular I'm a very big advocate of retreating-bair as a useful spacing tool against a lot of approaches.

 

[YoHeKing]

Bair cancels with basically absolutely zero lag if you land after just the first or second hit so I'm willing to say that this is quite possible.

I've been slowly building up consistency in using it the same way people use Fox's fair kicks into the ground. It's slowly gaining a lot more usage in my toolkit as I get consistency with it, in particular I'm a very big advocate of retreating-bair as a useful spacing tool against a lot of approaches.

Back air has always done that in fact. Its justs a bit harder to tech now.

 

[Skitrel]

Yeah. The question is whether the new wind box it has allows the cancel to go into a footstool.

It definitely didn't work before the last patch, I know because I've tried it in the lab before having seen other characters' footstool infinites. I tested it with both the first and second hitboxes. Cancelled from platforms and grounded. It never worked before.

Something may now be possible. It's worth investigating.

 

[YoHeKing]

Yeah. The question is whether the new wind box it has allows the cancel to go into a footstool.

It definitely didn't work before the last patch, I know because I've tried it in the lab before having seen other characters' footstool infinites. I tested it with both the first and second hitboxes. Cancelled from platforms and grounded. It never worked before.

Something may now be possible. It's worth investigating.

Its not a windbox. Its just a much better auto link.

Also what do you guys mean by no lag cancel?

 

[Skitrel]

Its not a windbox. Its just a much better auto link.

Also what do you guys mean by no lag cancel?

I mean that if you perform the move above the ground causing ONLY the first or second hit to land before Yoshi lands on the ground dragging his opponent into the floor then it cancels allowing Yoshi to follow up.

It's essentially the same as Fox's fair combo into dsmash and jab followups where he drags the opponent into the ground using his multi hit kicks.

It is harder to perform with our move but quite similar in execution and utility.

 

[YoHeKing]

I mean that if you perform the move above the ground causing ONLY the first or second hit to land before Yoshi lands on the ground dragging his opponent into the floor then it cancels allowing Yoshi to follow up.

It's essentially the same as Fox's fair combo into dsmash and jab followups where he drags the opponent into the ground using his multi hit kicks.

It is harder to perform with our move but quite similar in execution and utility.

Actually its not to bad. Its alot more safe but the only problem is the grounded hit of it.

 

[Delta-cod]

Question: Do you mean only the first OR second hit can connect, or that we must land immediately after connecting one or the other or both?

 

[YoHeKing]

I don't even think you can tech Yoshis back air off stage if they catch you with it on the way up and it stage spikes you. Without the hit of the 3rd hit.

 

[ReturningFall]

I've been using this for a while but in a different location. Dair against opponents that roll, jump or drop jump the ledge interrupts them. Fading dair away from an opponent at the edge causes them to slide off it, this then results in you being able to go for a second dair.

This is usually good for 40-50 damage against a recovering opponent, and of course because aerial dair sends opponents upwards you can fade away for the stage spike or let them pop upwards for an uair followup.

This also works very well in turning around edgeguard situations that are against you. Landing a dair during your recovery opens up this opportunity.

Kinda confused what we're saying here.

I'm familiar with the idea of dairing people on the ledge. It was originally my favorite ledge guard strat. The weakness is that if the opponent sits on the ledge most characters can just wait for you to whiff and getup while you're eating landing lag. Unless you're trying to hit them with the last couple hits so you land cleanly (but then, you've committed in full hopping and won't really get much damage and could have gone with something better).

Are you trying to hit them with the tail end on the left or right edge of the hitbox so the slide slightly to the side, cleanly land onstage, run off the edge and score a second dair? I'm guessing this is just damage on lightweights?

 

[YoHeKing]

Kinda confused what we're saying here.

I'm familiar with the idea of dairing people on the ledge. It was originally my favorite ledge guard strat. The weakness is that if the opponent sits on the ledge most characters can just wait for you to whiff and getup while you're eating landing lag. Unless you're trying to hit them with the last couple hits so you land cleanly (but then, you've committed in full hopping and won't really get much damage and could have gone with something better).

Are you trying to hit them with the tail end on the left or right edge of the hitbox so the slide slightly to the side, cleanly land onstage, run off the edge and score a second dair? I'm guessing this is just damage on lightweights?

you kinda just made it very complex now

 

[Skitrel]

Kinda confused what we're saying here.

I'm familiar with the idea of dairing people on the ledge. It was originally my favorite ledge guard strat. The weakness is that if the opponent sits on the ledge most characters can just wait for you to whiff and getup while you're eating landing lag. Unless you're trying to hit them with the last couple hits so you land cleanly (but then, you've committed in full hopping and won't really get much damage and could have gone with something better).

Are you trying to hit them with the tail end on the left or right edge of the hitbox so the slide slightly to the side, cleanly land onstage, run off the edge and score a second dair? I'm guessing this is just damage on lightweights?

Nooo.

Just wait a moment or two before performing it. What you're aiming to do is hit the ledge the moment their ledge invulnerability would run out.

If they get up sooner then use downB instead, downB works on reaction and if properly spaced it punishes get up attack, jump, and normal get up.