The Yoshi Labs

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

What if they wait for you to start dair and react to it?

 

[Skitrel]

Then it'll be either your bad timing that causes them to have invincibilty while still hanging on the ledge, or your opponent choosing rolling getup.

Attack getup, jump getup and normal getup all get hit by it.

Delay though, the biggest mistake I see Yoshis making right now is jumping very slightly too early for so many things. That split second of extra waiting time makes all the difference for a lot of Yoshi's attacks.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

if they wait for you to get close to the ledge before doing normal getup then they will pass through you while invincible and you'll either land in dair, or be offstage neither of which is good.

 

[YoHeKing]

Its impossible to actually punish a well spaced down air. If they wait for you then they get spiked... if they roll its actually possible to go back while in down air to get a few hits. Going offstage with the bufferd down air as they get up is like the most safe option.

 

[Skitrel]

No, they definitely get clipped for 1 or 2 percent during normal getup when I do it, it's enough to make being offstage not an issue.

I can whiff it from time to time, but I don't tend to have many issues as a Yoshi offstage any more. I've gotten to the point where I'm actually pretty comfortable in an edgeguard situation. We have so many tools to get back on stage that we really shouldn't take damage. Drop dair or drop egglay cover almost all options, and going high using breversals gets us comfortably out of anything else.

It is possible to land in dair, but you have the luxury of choosing which side of your opponent to land on. It can be pretty hard to tell whether a Yoshi is landing in front or behind you, 50:50 that they miss if you really **** it up like that.

 

[YoHeKing]

No, they definitely get clipped for 1 or 2 percent during normal getup when I do it, it's enough to make being offstage not an issue.

I can whiff it from time to time, but I don't tend to have many issues as a Yoshi offstage any more. I've gotten to the point where I'm actually pretty comfortable in an edgeguard situation. We have so many tools to get back on stage that we really shouldn't take damage. Drop dair or drop egglay cover almost all options, and going high using breversals gets us comfortably out of anything else.

It is possible to land in dair, but you have the luxury of choosing which side of your opponent to land on. It can be pretty hard to tell whether a Yoshi is landing in front or behind you, 50:50 that they miss if you really **** it up like that.

Its alot more safe going off stage after doing a bufferd down air because they can do a get up roll. You gotta keep in mind this isn't to safe for everyone. Pikachu you gotta watch out for so you can stay to close to the edge.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

 

[YoHeKing]

That has nothing to do with what were talking about. Well what im talking about.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Then what are you talking about? if you use dair when they're waiting on the ledge then they can avoid it easily.

 

[Skitrel]

There's a few things different with your setup compared to how I'll do it. Picture below.

I'll start dair up as soon as I take off, not on the way downwards.

You may also be jumping too early.

If you see them doing a normal getup, land on the stage instead of going off stage. They'll take 1-2% and slide off the stage again. It is relatively easy to see them starting a getup and to change to onstage landing instead. If you're incorrect and they happen to do do a roll up it doesn't matter as they're too far away to punish the landing lag from a roll up.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Are you saying you're waiting for the getup before you jump? Maybe I misunderstood you this entire time. lol

 

[Skitrel]

No.

I'm saying that mid jump you can change whether to go off edge or stay on stage, dependent on whether they do a getup or not. Their timing for what you demonstrated there is 3 frames by my count on that video. I just don't see that as viable, in particular because dair can come from many different spacings and with different timings.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm not saying that they can't get up through the invincibility, what I'm saying is that you have so many different ways to perform your dair that it is simply not feasible for them to use this option. Using a 3 frame timing against something that has variable timing is a huge gamble for somebody to make against a move that can do 34% and/or kill them.

It might be possible, I don't think it's something people will use against us in tournaments though as it's too risky because the timing is so strict.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

uh. That wasn't even close to all of normal getup's invincibility. There's a much bigger window than 3 frames. (besides you're the one who said use down B on reaction against getups even though it's a 1 frame window >.>)

edit: I should make this more clear, dair hitbox wont hit someone on the ledge until you are right next to the ground. It's not difficult to counter at all.

 

[Skitrel]

I wasn't saying that it was all of normal get up's invinicibility. What I was saying was that he had 3 frames in between you hitting him and starting his getup in your video. Had you fastfell his timing would need to be quite different.

If they leave it that late to use getup you should be landing on the stage anyway. The landing lag is shorter than the getup frames.

Getup animation: 30-35frames
Dair landing lag: 24 frames

Easily enough time for you to jump and throw out a second dair if they choose that option.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Dair ending lag 24 frames, 2nd frame has a hitbox
Get up vulnerability 1 frame

Amount of time to punish a landing dair, 21 frames

 

[YoHeKing]

Its a read though... most of the time. People don't know how to react to it 80% of the time.

 

[Skitrel]

It doesn't make any sense to ignore the 30-35frames of animation ledge getup has.

If we take your video as an example except assume the Yoshi lands onstage.

Frame 1: Getup animation starts
Frame 4: Yoshi lands
Frame 25: Yoshi can jump and act again. Jumpsquat included.
Frame 30: Getup animation finishes and vulnerability starts for 1 frame.
Frame 31: Yoshi nair hitbox starts
Frame 32: Shield/Spotdodge could come out here but opponent is hit by nair.
Frame 43: Yoshi nair hitbox ends.

If the person gets up 3 frames earlier (a total of 6 frames before Yoshi would have hit him) then that gives the Yoshi 100ms to switch from an onstage landing to ledgegrab landing, which as I said earlier is quite possible to do on reaction when you're looking for the getup start. Let's run through that scenario instead:

Frame 1: Getup animation starts
Frame 7: Yoshi grabs ledge.
Frame 27: Yoshi can act. Chooses to drop-jump-egglay
Frame 30: Getup animation ends.
Frame 31: Spot dodge animation starts.
Frame 45-51: Spot dodge intangibility ends. Length of spot dodge is 14-20frames dependent on character.
Opponent gets hit by your egglay.

If they choose to getup then shield they still get eaten by the egglay.

Dair is safe here if you use it correctly.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

What YoHeKing said is right, it's a read situation. The getup animation can be started before Yoshi lands while avoiding all of dair's hitboxes on reaction. That's just it.

 

[Skitrel]

Which, as I said, gives Yoshi an absolute minimum of 100ms with which to fade offstage instead of staying onstage. Every extra frame earlier gives another 16.6ms. If you give me 9frames instead of 6 I guarantee I'll make the ledge every single time with a whopping 150ms and the expectation.

And that STILL guarantees that the egglay will land.

It's good coverage man. You can think otherise, that's fine, but the options available don't really lie. An opponent must choose to drop-jump-attack to win against this frame data.

Again the strategy is:

Dair
Watch for opponent getup. If early then Yoshi should land on stage. If late. Land on ledge.

Possibility1 - Onstage: Immediately jump nair. Yoshi has frame advantage.
Possibility2 - On ledge: Immediately drop-jump-egglay. Yoshi has frame advantage.

Both the above scenarios play out with Yoshi winning the edgeguard. If the opponent choose the jump up or roll up dair hits them in the vulnerable frames. If they get up attack they whiff and get hit.

It's a very viable strategy.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

if you drift offstage that's not winning the edgeguard, that's giving the opponent the stage while you're now in line to get edgeguarded.

You forgot a 3rd possibility which is the opponent used getup at the right time and punishes you but w/e. Worth noting average human reaction time is 215ms

For the first possibility you forgot to factor in jump squat you can't get nair out before they can sheild in that scenario.

2nd possibility straight up assumes the opponent will always spotdodge when there's literally no reason to choose spot dodge. Really who is going to do that? lol

 

[Skitrel]

if you drift offstage that's not winning the edgeguard, that's giving the opponent the stage while you're now in line to get edgeguarded.

No! You're not, they have 4 options after the getup, move away, attack, shield or spot dodge. All of them except for moving away result in your opponent getting hit by egglay. I just demonstrated that above!

You forgot a 3rd possibility which is the opponent used getup at the right time and punishes you but w/e. Worth noting average human reaction time is 215ms

You need to read up on "state of readiness" or "response readiness" in relation to reaction times. It's an area I studied heavily when pushing competitive CSGO. A ready state results in drastically reduced reaction times in events where an individual has practiced and internalised a predetermined response. The body allows you to pre-prepare laterlized readiness potential and drastically reduce response time. This is how the CS pros like KennyS are making AWP shots measured at sub 65-90ms with consistency.

For the first possibility you forgot to factor in jump squat you can't get nair out before they can sheild in that scenario.

You're absolutely right. 3 frames missed! I've edited them in now, they don't apply to possibility 2 and they don't affect possibility 1.

2nd possibility straight up assumes the opponent will always spotdodge when there's literally no reason to choose spot dodge. Really who is going to do that? lol

No it doesn't. It assumes they'll spot dodge, attack or shield, all 3 of which result in being hit by an egglay. Roll or moving away is the only way to avoid this, that gives Yoshi a position on the stage again. This option can be punished with a perfect pivot.

I'm feeling a lot of aggression/confrontation here, can we cool it please? We can disagree and debate it without getting heated up, it's not a big deal.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

I'm sorry if I came across as aggressive. I didn't mean to just debating, and I'm not heated at all.

You're absolutely right. 3 frames missed! I've edited them in now, they don't apply to possibility 2 and they don't affect possibility 1.

Yoshi's jump squat is 6 frames.

No! You're not, they have 4 options after the getup, move away, attack, shield or spot dodge. All of them except for moving away result in your opponent getting hit by egglay. I just demonstrated that above!

This is entirely wrong. They can also jump, delay spot dodge or run off.
Attacking egg lay would beat it, because there's no grab armor and has a lot of startup. This will leave you off stage without a DJ.

I really think you're missing my point tbh which is that using diar is not safe or leads to guaranteed punish options. Of course anything will work if you choose an option that beats the opponent's but that's true for them too...

 

[Skitrel]

They can also jump, delay spot dodge or run off.

All of them except for moving away result in your opponent getting hit by egglay.

But I'll give you delayed spotdodge. I'd argue delaying the same option is still the same option though.

I really think you're missing my point tbh which is that using diar is not safe or leads to guaranteed punish options

And I'm disagreeing. You need to read the dair for any option you've suggested to be effective, reads aren't guaranteed. We can go round in circles on this forever, I don't think we're going to agree.

Are you sure about the interaction between nair and jumpsquat? What you're suggesting seems to be that nair only comes out on frame 9 from a grounded position 6jumpsquat+3nair. I haven't tested it but nair doesn't seem that slow. Utilt comes out on frame 8 and I'm pretty sure every other Yoshi here will agree that nair is quicker than throwing an utilt.

I have a feeling startup for nair combines with jumpsquat if jumpsquat is that long for Yoshi.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

But I'll give you delayed spotdodge. I'd argue delaying the same option is still the same option though.

The difference is it will allow them to punish you. >.>

And I'm disagreeing. You need to read the dair for any option you've suggested to be effective, reads aren't guaranteed. We can go round in circles on this forever, I don't think we're going to agree.

You don't need to read dair. Between jump squat and dair having a whopping 26 frame startup along with using the option normal getup being after the move is already out leaves plenty of time for reaction, and them being on stage with frame advantage. In case you're still curious I'll lay down the numbers for off stage drifting

dair hitbox ends on frame 41, but for the sake of theory crafting I'll assume that they covered the landing hitbox of dair which would be frame 44. move can be acted out of frame 56
Yoshi's fastest air options: nair, airdodge (both frame 3)
Normal getup vulnerability 1 frame
Frame advantage for the opponent 14

That's a 13 frame window to have any advantage over Yoshi at all. Not a small window and certainly possible at the very least.

Are you sure about the interaction between nair and jumpsquat? What you're suggesting seems to be that nair only comes out on frame 9 from a grounded position 6jumpsquat+3nair. I haven't tested it but nair doesn't seem that slow. Utilt comes out on frame 8 and I'm pretty sure every other Yoshi here will agree that nair is quicker than throwing an utilt.

I have a feeling startup for nair combines with jumpsquat if jumpsquat is that long for Yoshi.

Decided to test just to be sure. Got frame 9, so yeah it's all of jump squat. Oh well still faster OoS than jab or up smash. If you still don't believe me you can go into training mode and test jump nair vs up tilt

 

[Skitrel]

We need to do more writeups that involve breaking down the interactions by frames like this. I'm quite sure a lot of Yoshis are going to be surprised to learn utilt is a better option oos.

I'll have to take back criticism I levelled ESAM's direction for whiffed utilts where I believed nair was a better option.

Utilt becomes a better option in a lot of scenarios.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

You can't use up tilt OoS without shield drop. Nair is our fastest OoS option.

 

[Skitrel]

That explains that then!

 

[Delta-cod]

Data Drop - Down B under platforms. Which characters can we hit with the full Down B if we start the move under a platform and land on top of it?

Methodology - Tests performed in training against stationary CPUs. I tried some DI on some of the closer ones and it didn't seem to change anything. If this is a problem then I'll retest with DI (down and away?). Mii character tests were done on the defaults, as I believe they are the standard weight/height for tournaments. Currently, this method would imply that any character that this is listed as working on would get hit regardless of rage/freshness bonus on Down B. Testing those who didn't get hit without these effects will come later.

The initial hit of Down B was activated right next to the opponent. At further ranges, it's possible that we would only hit with stars. This should be okay, as I don't believe we can be punished in that case anyways, so it's worth it to go for the kill.

Note - I do not have Mewtwo/Roy/Lucas/Ryu. So someone will have to test those for me.

Edit: Thanks Shado Chimera for testing the DLC characters on Battlefield!

Battlefield

Terms​

Top - Down B connects when going from bottom platform to top platform. To test this, CPUs were pushed to the edge of the platform near the top center one, then hit.
Bottom - Down B connects when going from ground to bottom platform
Both - Both Top and Bottom apply.
[collapse=Full List]
Mario - None

Weegee - Both

Peach - Both

Bowser - Both

Yoshi - Both

Rosy - Both

Bowser Jr - Top Only(His model is too fat to actually land on the top platform with when you do down b, you fall through the gap)

Wario - Both

DK - Both

Diddy - None

GnW - Both

Lil Mac - Both

Link - Both

Zelda - Both

Sheik - Both (!!!!!!)

Ganon - Both

Toon Link - Both

Samus - Both

ZSS - Both

Pit - Both

Palutena - Both

Marth - Both

Ike - Both

Robin - Both

Duck Hunt - Both

Kirby - Both

King DDD - Both (Top platform you fall through the gap because he’s too fat)

Meta Knight - Both (Top gets you the gap)

Fox - Both

Falco - Both

Pikachu - Both

Charizard - Both

Lucario - Both

Jigglypuff - Both

Greninja - None (falls too fast)

ROB - Both

Ness - Both

Falcon - None (falls too fast)

Villager - Both

Olimar - Both

Wii Fit - Both

Shulk - Both

Shulk (Jump) - Both

Shulk (Speed) - Both

Shulk (Shield) - None

Shulk (Buster) - Both

Shulk (Smash) - Both

Dr. Mario - None

Dark Pit - Both

Lucina - Both

Pacman - Both

Mega Man - None

Sonic - Both

Brawler - Both

Smallest Size Mii Brawler - Top

Gunner - Both

Swordfighter - Both

Mewtwo - Both

Lucas - Both

Roy - None

Ryu - None
[/collapse]
TL;DR - Works on everyone but Mario, Diddy, Greninja, Falcon, Dr. Mario, Mega Man, Roy, Ryu, and Shield Shulk.
Special Cases - Bowser Jr, Smallest Mii Brawler(Only works on Top)
Estimations - I imagine that Both work on Mewtwo and Lucas. Roy might be immune due to fall speed?

Recommendations for stages to do would be nice. I plan on doing Smashville next as it's quite a common stage.

I don't know if I want to do the more variable stages (Delfino, Town and City), just because I feel overwhelmed by the platform variance and setting up all those tests. If anyone has advice on how to do those or would like to assist (or if we deem them not really necessary to do), please speak up.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Mewtwo - Both

Lucas - Both

Roy - None

Ryu - None

Smallest Size Mii Brawler - Top

I mentioned Brawler since there's no unified Mii ruleset. tbh I'm surprised this works against most characters.

 

[Delta-cod]

I knew I forgot a DLC character. Thanks for picking up Ryu.

I was surprised too. It looks like the main limiting factor is fall speed and weight. Fox falls fast but is light, so he gets hit. But Falcon, despite being bigger, is too heavy to get lifted up high enough. I went expecting to just start ruling out most small characters, but I was pleasantly surprised by the results.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

I think SV, T&C, Dream Land and maybe Duck Hunt are worth testing. I also think we should test rage since it affects fixed knockback.

 

[Delta-cod]

I'd imagine rage would just help us connect on those that we weren't already getting, right? Does freshness bonus also have an effect on fixed knockback?

If so, I might need to switch to non-training mode. Which makes testing rage much more difficult, too. =(

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Rage isn't in training mode so it was already difficult. Staleness affects it by a very small amount. eg. Mario works on the lower platform at 53% fresh and works at 61% when the entire stale slot is down B.

edit: I don't think collecting stale data is worth it since down B shouldn't be stale anyway.

 

[Delta-cod]

Welp, back to the drawing board~

 

[YoHeKing]

I found infinite combos that work on all the characters with yoshi and any character.... I really don't know if I should make it public if it results in a nerf

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Feel free. It does nothing if it isn't known anyway.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Nobody checks smashboards anyways, Yoshi boards especially.

 

[ReturningFall]

I found infinite combos that work on all the characters with yoshi and any character.... I really don't know if I should make it public if it results in a nerf

But start using it, people will notice and start using it themselves (particularly if you get good enough to get people to watch your tourney or online matches). Then it spreads throughout the community, anyways.

Running it through here will let the other Yoshi's check if it actually is as effective as you think before investing lots of time trying to make use of it/perfecting it.

It might already be known, too. Japan loves Yoshi and loves tinkering with all sorts of bizarre setups. For instance, we do have a known jab infinite (discovered in Japan, not sure by whom), but it takes really precise positioning. Haven't ever heard of anyone actually pulling it off in a real match and it's been known almost since launch. (November?)

The funny thing about secrets is that it only lasts until you use it. And if you don't develop the metagame with those you talk to/play with, it slows local metagame developments and can make you more vulnerable to people who have discovered your tricks independently.

 

[GSM_Dren]

Data Drop - Down B under platforms

Methodology - Tests performed in training against stationary CPUs. I tried some DI on some of the closer ones and it didn't seem to change anything. If this is a problem then I'll retest with DI (down and away?). Mii character tests were done on the defaults, as I believe they are the standard weight/height for tournaments.

Note - I do not have Mewtwo/Roy/Lucas. So someone will have to test those for me.

Edit: Thanks Shado Chimera for testing the DLC characters on Battlefield!

Battlefield

Terms​

Top - Down B connects when going from bottom platform to top platform. To test this, CPUs were pushed to the edge of the platform near the top center one, then hit.
Bottom - Down B connects when going from ground to bottom platform
Both - Both Top and Bottom apply.
[collapse=Full List]
Mario - None

Weegee - Both

Peach - Both

Bowser - Both

Yoshi - Both

Rosy - Both

Bowser Jr - Top Only(His model is too fat to actually land on the top platform with when you do down b, you fall through the gap)

Wario - Both

DK - Both

Diddy - None

GnW - Both

Lil Mac - Both

Link - Both

Zelda - Both

Sheik - Both (!!!!!!)

Ganon - Both

Toon Link - Both

Samus - Both

ZSS - Both

Pit - Both

Palutena - Both

Marth - Both

Ike - Both

Robin - Both

Duck Hunt - Both

Kirby - Both

King DDD - Both (Top platform you fall through the gap because he’s too fat)

Meta Knight - Both (Top gets you the gap)

Fox - Both

Falco - Both

Pikachu - Both

Charizard - Both

Lucario - Both

Jigglypuff - Both

Greninja - None (falls too fast)

ROB - Both

Ness - Both

Falcon - None (falls too fast)

Villager - Both

Olimar - Both

Wii Fit - Both

Shulk - Both

Shulk (Jump) - Both

Shulk (Speed) - Both

Shulk (Shield) - None

Shulk (Buster) - Both

Shulk (Smash) - Both

Dr. Mario - None

Dark Pit - Both

Lucina - Both

Pacman - Both

Mega Man - None

Sonic - Both

Brawler - Both

Smallest Size Mii Brawler - Top

Gunner - Both

Swordfighter - Both

Mewtwo - Both

Lucas - Both

Roy - None

Ryu - None
[/collapse]
TL;DR - Works on everyone but Mario, Diddy, Greninja, Falcon, Dr. Mario, Mega Man, Roy, Ryu, and Shield Shulk.
Special Cases - Bowser Jr, Smallest Mii Brawler(Only works on Top)
Estimations - I imagine that Both work on Mewtwo and Lucas. Roy might be immune due to fall speed?

Recommendations for stages to do would be nice. I plan on doing Smashville next as it's quite a common stage.

I don't know if I want to do the more variable stages (Delfino, Town and City), just because I feel overwhelmed by the platform variance and setting up all those tests. If anyone has advice on how to do those or would like to assist (or if we deem them not really necessary to do), please speak up.

Sorry Delta could you explain this further? I'm having trouble understanding what this info means ?_?

 

[YoHeKing]

Freshness bonus would barly change ANYTHING.

But start using it, people will notice and start using it themselves (particularly if you get good enough to get people to watch your tourney or online matches). Then it spreads throughout the community, anyways.

Running it through here will let the other Yoshi's check if it actually is as effective as you think before investing lots of time trying to make use of it/perfecting it.

It might already be known, too. Japan loves Yoshi and loves tinkering with all sorts of bizarre setups. For instance, we do have a known jab infinite (discovered in Japan, not sure by whom), but it takes really precise positioning. Haven't ever heard of anyone actually pulling it off in a real match and it's been known almost since launch. (November?)

The funny thing about secrets is that it only lasts until you use it. And if you don't develop the metagame with those you talk to/play with, it slows local metagame developments and can make you more vulnerable to people who have discovered your tricks independently.

I don't think ill be using it.