The West MI Thread / Make Plans Here - PM Tourney: Red Edition

[JTsm]

The title should be changed to reflect the date of the next tourney!

And tell me if there's a tourney thread...

 

[W.C.N]

Should use the last tourney thread since it already has all the past tourneys

 

[Damittom]

If you guys look at the tourney thread it had already been updated last week >_>

 

[Arcalyth]

How did you guys feel about the Project: M ruleset at Lordy v5? (For reference: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=332752)

I'm most specifically looking for input on the stage choices and bans. Is 4 bans enough? Too much? Just right? Do you agree with Castle Siege, Norfair, Skyworld, and Skyloft being illegal?

(Btw, I decided to make Skyloft legal for Lake Effect)

The reason I decided to ban Norfair and Skyworld is because I feel that their layout too readily supports circle camping, too heavily skews matchups in favor of characters with high aerial mobility (and conversely cripples characters with low aerial mobility), and makes recovery and edgeguarding overly polarizing depending on character.

I originally banned Skyloft because I anticipated recovery johns (get pineapple'd all day) and uneven terrain johns, but neither of those make any sense because we still have DL64 and Metal Cavern, respectively. The stairs and platform layout are just varied enough to make the stage good counterpick material without completely breaking matchups.

Castle Siege is banned because of glitches with the transformation sequence (you can get stuck under it and die at no fault of your own). Personally, I'm not too fond of the layout of the first transformation, either. It's basically a tiny Skyloft, which exacerbates the issues that the Skyloft stairs provide (characters with crouch dominate the low ground, characters with projectiles or range dominate the high ground) without the ability to comfortably reset like Skyloft's size allows. The only other positive to make Castle Siege good counterpick material is the fact that the first transformation also has walls a la WarioWare, GHZ, etc.

 

[Solharath]

For reference:

Starter
- Battlefield
- Final Destination
- Yoshi's Story
- Dreamland
- Fountain of Dreams
- Pokemon Stadium 2
- Smashville

Counterpick
- Dracula's Castle
- Green Hill Zone
- WarioWare
- Halberd
- Metal Cavern
- Pokemon Stadium 1
- Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
- Rumble Falls
- Skyloft

....Really I find that SSS Page 1 should be your tournament list, and I can't help but point out that Skyloft can lag when flying around(I think it's setup/SD Card dependent). It has some wilder stages, but some characters excel on "Neutral" stages, like Sheik or Marth, whereas some characters would not, but a stage like Castle Siege or Metal Cavern might be a solid choice for say, Ike, where FD would not(I know nothing of Ike.)

Either way, the P:M Devs clearly presented the first page of their SSS to be the accepted tournament legal page. Bottom Row is Starters, the rest are counterpicks. From what I can see, the 4 counterpicks allow you to remove any stage type you don't want to see in the same way a single strike might help you in Brawl.

 

[Ori_bro]

So I am on break during this Lordy event. So me attending is a maybe, I might be spending a weekend at GVSU or MSU while I'm on this break. I'll know as this gets closer.

 

[Roller]

Why do you have a break in the middle of February?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

And tell me if there's a tourney thread...

Lazy ***..lmao

 

[Ori_bro]

Why do you have a break in the middle of February?

Oakland University is weird. I get the Feb 16-25 off and no breaks for the rest of the year. I mean I can't complain when I'm on Summer starting like April 25th at the latest.

 

[JTsm]

Lazy ***..lmao

Ironic much?

 

[W.C.N]

How did you guys feel about the Project: M ruleset at Lordy v5?

The reason I decided to ban Norfair and Skyworld is because I feel that their layout too readily supports circle camping, too heavily skews matchups in favor of characters with high aerial mobility (and conversely cripples characters with low aerial mobility), and makes recovery and edgeguarding overly polarizing depending on character.

So your trying to make it favor people with better ground control over having stages which help those that are hindered by the rest? Sounds like the brawl ruleset shrinking all over again

 

[Arcalyth]

So I am on break during this Lordy event. So me attending is a maybe, I might be spending a weekend at GVSU or MSU while I'm on this break. I'll know as this gets closer.

If you're at GV hit me up. I play PM with a few people here regularly. Also let me know if you need housing. I live just off campus.

So your trying to make it favor people with better ground control over having stages which help those that are hindered by the rest? Sounds like the brawl ruleset shrinking all over again

That's not my intent at all. My mindset comes more from the potential for circle-camping and recovery feeling broken. Of course, my opinion is completely subjective. I won't claim to be an expert on the metagame in relation to stages, but I don't feel that those stages should be legal for those reasons.

However, that's why I asked for input. If the attendees of the tournament disagree, I'll gladly change the ruleset. The solution to playing on stages that aren't obviously broken for tournament play (like most of page 2 of the SSS) is definitely to be less scrubby and L2P.

 

[Solharath]

Yeah, personally, I kind of liked the APEX ruleset, which had SSS 1 legal and had three counterpick strikes... Which is still good enough to remove most if not all of a stagetype that is detrimental to your character. I just like the four counterpick system because it let's me take care of a stagetype I don't want, and then get rid of a personally disliked stage.

I mean, you can just ban Norfair if you don't like it.

EDIT: Hey Tom, mind putting Ludington, Manistee, and Traverse City on the player list? Also, you need to update for Lake Effect I.

 

[SophyBer]

How did you guys feel about the Project: M ruleset at Lordy v5? (For reference: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=332752)

I'm most specifically looking for input on the stage choices and bans. Is 4 bans enough? Too much? Just right? Do you agree with Castle Siege, Norfair, Skyworld, and Skyloft being illegal?

(Btw, I decided to make Skyloft legal for Lake Effect)

The reason I decided to ban Norfair and Skyworld is because I feel that their layout too readily supports circle camping, too heavily skews matchups in favor of characters with high aerial mobility (and conversely cripples characters with low aerial mobility), and makes recovery and edgeguarding overly polarizing depending on character.

I originally banned Skyloft because I anticipated recovery johns (get pineapple'd all day) and uneven terrain johns, but neither of those make any sense because we still have DL64 and Metal Cavern, respectively. The stairs and platform layout are just varied enough to make the stage good counterpick material without completely breaking matchups.

Castle Siege is banned because of glitches with the transformation sequence (you can get stuck under it and die at no fault of your own). Personally, I'm not too fond of the layout of the first transformation, either. It's basically a tiny Skyloft, which exacerbates the issues that the Skyloft stairs provide (characters with crouch dominate the low ground, characters with projectiles or range dominate the high ground) without the ability to comfortably reset like Skyloft's size allows. The only other positive to make Castle Siege good counterpick material is the fact that the first transformation also has walls a la WarioWare, GHZ, etc.

I'm good with SkyWorld being banned but that's mostly because I think the platforms are really dumb in how their shaped so it makes it hard to properly do a waveland onto them; I do like the placement of them though. Either Norfair or SkyWorld so be removed from the stage listing for something like Delfino Plaza or Rainbow Cruise considering those are odd ball stages that people are much more familiar with. I also don't like Halberd at all but that's just me. Arguably it's no better than Delfino Plaza and they're very similar but between the two I prefer Delfin Plaza. Fountain of Dreams isn't by any means a bad stage but I've got a personal bias against it and I'd like to see it as a counter pick and either Skyloft, Metal Cavern, or even Green Hill Zone take its place as a starter so that there's some 'odd' stage diversity with the starters.

How does the stage selection process go? Through that I might be able to come up with a better opinion on how many bans may be appropriate.

Starter
- Battlefield
- Final Destination
- Yoshi's Story
- Dreamland
- Fountain of Dreams
- Pokemon Stadium 2
- Smashville

Counterpick
- Dracula's Castle
- Green Hill Zone
- WarioWare
- Halberd
- Metal Cavern
- Pokemon Stadium 1
- Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
- Rumble Falls
- Skyloft

 

[lordhelmet]

I do not understand PM enough to make fair ruleset decisions. So to avoid any confusion/bias, PM will be running with Apex rules (applies to my house tournies only, obv)

 

[SophyBer]

I do not understand PM enough to make fair ruleset decisions. So to avoid any confusion/bias, PM will be running with Apex rules (applies to my house tournies only, obv)

You always know just what to say, Lordy-dono.

 

[Damittom]

Lordy for Prez. And Rsr2 & Super post a statement in a similar format of the players in your area for the op please

 

[Solharath]

What, like...

Ludington
Robjoe -
Flan~ -

Manistee
Super

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

 

[Apasher]

 

[JTsm]

Dekillsage <3

 

[Solharath]

Eh, it's whatever.

 

[rsr2]

Traverse City Area

rsr2 -
Highawk -
Heartless/jewswag -
Halluraka -
Captain Rainbowz -
Princess Ginger -

Highawk is a friend of mine who just moved up from Florida and he plays very little smash so time to get him to experience Ganon Battles ^ _ ^

 

[Arcalyth]

Yeah, personally, I kind of liked the APEX ruleset, which had SSS 1 legal and had three counterpick strikes... Which is still good enough to remove most if not all of a stagetype that is detrimental to your character. I just like the four counterpick system because it let's me take care of a stagetype I don't want, and then get rid of a personally disliked stage.

I mean, you can just ban Norfair if you don't like it.

Including SSE: Jungle...?

I played a few sets on Norfair and Skyworld today. Circle camp all day. It's ****ing ********. The collisions under Skyworld are also dumb, and you have a pretty big advantage if you control the left cloud. Go take a close look at how that stage is laid out. I'm keeping them banned in my ruleset.

Seriously though legal Norfair is just... ugh.

Either Norfair or SkyWorld so be removed from the stage listing for something like Delfino Plaza or Rainbow Cruise considering those are odd ball stages that people are much more familiar with. I also don't like Halberd at all but that's just me. Arguably it's no better than Delfino Plaza

I want to make Rainbow Cruise a legal doubles counterpick lol. Dunno how well that'd fly though.

As far as Delfino Plaza... **** no. Unless there's a version that only has the floating portions. Landing on the beach, the plaza, the tower, and the pipe area are all dumb. (Water as well as a wall that automatically forces an approach, walkoffs, walls that force approaches, and water as well as a layout that breaks recovery for many characters... very much like Mushroom Kingdom II in Melee; respectively)

Halberd has a walkoff for the first 10 seconds of the match and that's it... the laser I'd argue is pretty neutral because both players can take advantage of it (targeted player has a free zoning tool, but defending player can pressure the target into getting hit by the laser). The cannonball is really easy to avoid and you have days to react to it.

Fountain of Dreams isn't by any means a bad stage but I've got a personal bias against it and I'd like to see it as a counter pick and either Skyloft, Metal Cavern, or even Green Hill Zone take its place as a starter so that there's some 'odd' stage diversity with the starters.

I hate that FoD is a starter but we don't really have a better choice. Skyloft and MC are DEFINITELY not neutral enough to be starters. When it comes to the ~*~*homosexuality*~*~ (yes that is a technical term) of the platforms of GHZ in comparison to FoD, GHZ is infinitely more gay. Free spacing for days. FoD at least benefits BOTH characters usually. GHZ is pretty one-sided.

How does the stage selection process go? Through that I might be able to come up with a better opinion on how many bans may be appropriate.

First match: Stage strike 122112
Subsequent matches: Winner bans out of both Starter AND Counterpick, then loser picks a stage.

Starter
- Battlefield
- Final Destination
- Yoshi's Story
- Dreamland
- Fountain of Dreams
- Pokemon Stadium 2
- Smashville

Counterpick
- Dracula's Castle
- Green Hill Zone
- WarioWare
- Halberd
- Metal Cavern
- Pokemon Stadium 1
- Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
- Rumble Falls
- Skyloft

 

[Arcalyth]

tl;dr [3:56:48 AM] Arcalyth / root: #rootneedstol2p

 

[Solharath]

Including SSE: Jungle...?

I played a few sets on Norfair and Skyworld today. Circle camp all day. It's ****ing ********. The collisions under Skyworld are also dumb, and you have a pretty big advantage if you control the left cloud. Go take a close look at how that stage is laid out. I'm keeping them banned in my ruleset.

Seriously though legal Norfair is just... ugh.

...So your singular experience on Norfair, likely with just a single character/Sheilda, is enough to cover every possible matchup that would be played on Norfair.

.....Okay then.

Seriously though, you can't cite a singular type of matchup for the full ban of a stage. Sonic would probably promote circle camping, as would Fox or Falco. This is why counterpick bans exist. However, if you can't adapt and play a match using your own character strengths, then I don't know what to tell you. I find the strategy of circlecamping to be appalling, but we still have sharking legal, and that's arguably more powerful of a strategy. Hell, ICs are one grab one stock in Brawl(and Melee, to a lesser extent), and you know what the strategy is there? "Don't get grabbed." It's difficult, but you gotta do it.

If your opponent excels at circle camping, don't lose percent lead. Or find a counterpick character. Or use your counterpick ban. Stages have a lot to do with the metagame of Smash, and it's not fair to give some characters an advantage on "Neutral Stages" where they excel and leave stranger stages like Norfair behind because they're different and "jank". I could play Fox and Circle Camp on Rumble Falls all day long. Falco could be even easier. Laser, then quickly jump around and waveland on platforms, Side B, and repeat. Few characters can keep up with that. Hell, the Young Link vs. Jigglypuff matchup in Melee is STRICTLY circle camping. And YL can do it on FD against Jiggs. He's a character who's entire playstyle hinges on that ability to rack up damage from far away and force approaches, leading his opponent on a merry chase throughout the stage. He does it on Dreamland, so ban that too.

Yes, Norfair's stage design is different enough that it promotes even harsher circle camping, I'm not blind. I'm making an exaggerated case, but the point remains that these things happen and happen frequently, and just because Sheilda doesn't excel at it doesn't give it grounds to be banned. It means Sheilda should stage ban it on counterpick.

Overswarm made an interesting post over in the Project M Boards about tier lists that includes a lengthy bit about how this effects stage legality.

FD shouldn't be "Neutral".

Also SSE:Jungle is a legal 2v2 stage, but banned in Singles Play. Fountain of Dreams is a legal 1v1 stage, but banned in Doubles(usually).

 

[Damittom]

Fountain is banned in melee doubles because it lags with 4 characters.

 

[Solharath]

Fountain is banned in melee doubles because it lags with 4 characters.

Same can be said of Skyloft.

 

[SophyBer]

Including SSE: Jungle...?

I played a few sets on Norfair and Skyworld today. Circle camp all day. It's ****ing ********. The collisions under Skyworld are also dumb, and you have a pretty big advantage if you control the left cloud. Go take a close look at how that stage is laid out. I'm keeping them banned in my ruleset.

Seriously though legal Norfair is just... ugh.

fd;lfakds;dskf'a;dsf

I want to make Rainbow Cruise a legal doubles counterpick lol. Dunno how well that'd fly though.

dfgfdsfdddf adsf ads sdf sadfds fdsf dsf sfsd fdsf sdf dsfds fdsf ds f

As far as Delfino Plaza... **** no. Unless there's a version that only has the floating portions. Landing on the beach, the plaza, the tower, and the pipe area are all dumb. (Water as well as a wall that automatically forces an approach, walkoffs, walls that force approaches, and water as well as a layout that breaks recovery for many characters... very much like Mushroom Kingdom II in Melee; respectively)

Halberd has a walkoff for the first 10 seconds of the match and that's it... the laser I'd argue is pretty neutral because both players can take advantage of it (targeted player has a free zoning tool, but defending player can pressure the target into getting hit by the laser). The cannonball is really easy to avoid and you have days to react to it.



I hate that FoD is a starter but we don't really have a better choice. Skyloft and MC are DEFINITELY not neutral enough to be starters. When it comes to the ~*~*homosexuality*~*~ (yes that is a technical term) of the platforms of GHZ in comparison to FoD, GHZ is infinitely more gay. Free spacing for days. FoD at least benefits BOTH characters usually. GHZ is pretty one-sided.


First match: Stage strike 122112
Subsequent matches: Winner bans out of both Starter AND Counterpick, then loser picks a stage.

Starter
- Battlefield
- Final Destination
- Yoshi's Story
- Dreamland
- Fountain of Dreams
- Pokemon Stadium 2
- Smashville

Counterpick
- Dracula's Castle
- Green Hill Zone
- WarioWare
- Halberd
- Metal Cavern
- Pokemon Stadium 1
- Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
- Rumble Falls
- Skyloft

dfa'd;lkfd's;lkds'; ksd';f kds';fk ds'fk 'fka k;d

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Dakota just won this argument.

 

[JTsm]

You guys lost to a smash rookie. How do you guys feel?

 

[SophyBer]

FORGIVE MY NOOBNESS, HERE IS MY ACTUAL REPLY!
Now assuming that anything in this 'legitimate' reply of mine is overritten by anything said after this comment than I ask permission to resort back to my original reply "dfa'd;lkfd's;lkds'; ksd';f kds';fk ds'fk 'fka k;d" so that my victory can be assured.

Including SSE: Jungle...?

I played a few sets on Norfair and Skyworld today. Circle camp all day. It's ****ing ********. The collisions under Skyworld are also dumb, and you have a pretty big advantage if you control the left cloud. Go take a close look at how that stage is laid out. I'm keeping them banned in my ruleset.

Seriously though legal Norfair is just... ugh.

[I DON'T KNOW HOW TO SECTION QUOTE SO I'M DOING THIS THING RIGHT HERE WITH WORDS]
I understand your dislike of these tactics on stages but they are essential to some degree to gameplay. I suppose that it could be argued whether or not playing like this is even cool but that's beside the point, if it generates a win it should be accepted as legal/okay. Not like I really like either of these stages but if the only reason they'd be offed from the list of stages is because of abusive maneuvers that can be done on them, granted they're not junk like transformations that can kill people easily, than they're alright by me.
^In regard to the circle camping junk on Skyloft and Norfair.


I want to make Rainbow Cruise a legal doubles counterpick lol. Dunno how well that'd fly though.
"Dunnow how well that'd fly" "Rainbow Cruise" Oh Root, you so silly.
Do it though. Assuming doubles do go down I'd like to see this stage available for play. I think this stage is epic silly.


As far as Delfino Plaza... **** no. Unless there's a version that only has the floating portions. Landing on the beach, the plaza, the tower, and the pipe area are all dumb. (Water as well as a wall that automatically forces an approach, walkoffs, walls that force approaches, and water as well as a layout that breaks recovery for many characters... very much like Mushroom Kingdom II in Melee; respectively)

Halberd has a walkoff for the first 10 seconds of the match and that's it... the laser I'd argue is pretty neutral because both players can take advantage of it (targeted player has a free zoning tool, but defending player can pressure the target into getting hit by the laser). The cannonball is really easy to avoid and you have days to react to it.
Sounds perfectly gay, I love it.


I hate that FoD is a starter but we don't really have a better choice. Skyloft and MC are DEFINITELY not neutral enough to be starters. When it comes to the ~*~*homosexuality*~*~ (yes that is a technical term) of the platforms of GHZ in comparison to FoD, GHZ is infinitely more gay. Free spacing for days. FoD at least benefits BOTH characters usually. GHZ is pretty one-sided.
Well that's just why I'd like to see them as a starter. Ya'know, mixin' it up. That and I just blatantly don't like FoD either. Hhahaaa, damn, I sure am a hater.

First match: Stage strike 122112
Subsequent matches: Winner bans out of both Starter AND Counterpick, then loser picks a stage.
"Winner bans out of both Starter AND Counterpick" LolWut? Okay, so I looked back at earlier replies and found that a winner gets four bans (per each game?) so I've got this.
I think four bans is great but two or thee may be better so that winners don't have so much power over what stages are played on in the following games. I also still stand strong to the idea that FoD should be swapped out for GHZ or at least MC.

Starter
- Battlefield
- Final Destination
- Yoshi's Story
- Dreamland
- Fountain of Dreams
- Pokemon Stadium 2
- Smashville

Counterpick
- Dracula's Castle
- Green Hill Zone
- WarioWare
- Halberd
- Metal Cavern
- Pokemon Stadium 1
- Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
- Rumble Falls
- Skyloft

 

[JTsm]

What instances does Norfair and Skyloft promote circle camping? I'm actually interested to know. What type of Char? Pit? Wario? Sonic?

 

[CaptainRainbows]

Y-y-y-you could list O-o-o-ori-senpai's location as in m-m-my heart if you w-w-want.... :blush:

 

[Deleted member]

Y-y-y-you could list O-o-o-ori-senpai's location as in m-m-my heart if you w-w-want.... :blush:

Too lewd.

 

[rsr2]

Not lewd enough.

 

[Arcalyth]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/WestMISmash/permalink/574337225911646/

Juggleguy says: "Hey everyone, I'm trying to revive the Michigan Smash Map. It's severely outdated from a couple years ago, and we're missing a ton of people (especially West MI). Hopefully this can be useful for future new players to quickly find out where the most likely Smashfest locations are, so if you can put up your general location that'd be great."

Use the format that everyone else did. Melee uses a Red marker, Brawl uses a Blue marker. Project:M/Melee uses Purple, and Project:M/Brawl uses Cyan. Include your tag, location, and characters.

 

[lordhelmet]

March 16th or 23rd?

 

[Damittom]

23rd.

I think the 16th is too soon after outrage

 

[Arcalyth]

I'd personally prefer the 16th but either is fine by me.