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The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

Zerp

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Happy Easter y'all, hope your all enjoying it!

Smashville, (I cannot believe it took me that long to realize the V is not capitalized, haha) is the poster boy of competitive stages, and while it does get a bit dull after being played a bajillion times, I think it's deserving of it's status. Puff does pretty average here imo, that platform is both a gift from the heavens and a nuisance, since while it can help out your play, it also can "save" people that would have otherwise died from a edgeguarding attempt and such.

I'm going to abstain from discussing Duck Hunt, simply because I nearly never play there, I should go and play there more often though, it's a fun stage.

Here's Duck hunt and Smashville's results https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1rLyXseX3OtXMQ_UUK8K3gVKrXsofkjIraKbkiIrSGzQ/viewanalytics
Umbra Clock Tower and Delfino Plaza won today, here's their poll http://goo.gl/forms/vDFuHefNnN

You can vote for these stages now

Lylat Cruise (U)
Castle Siege (U)
Town & City (U)
Arena Ferox (3DS)
Prism Tower (3DS)
Yoshi's Island (3DS)

Oh and if your wondering why this is a hour (and 15 minutes) early, Daylight Savings Time began today over in Germany, so it's going to be a hour before it used to be for you guys from now on. (The 15 minutes is just because I hit "post" a bit too early, lol)

Edit: Voting Town and City
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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Umbra Clock Tower, while normally good, is a bit gimmicky when the platforms appear either really high or below the stage. Remove those specific platforms and almost every tournament would allow the stage.

Delfino Plaza I normally stay away from, because almost every transformation is a walk-off and/or has water. I honestly think it's a bit too gimmicky to be legal, especially when you add onto that the tiny ceiling during transitions. A lot would have to be changed for me to think it a reasonable counterpick.

Voting Lylat Cruise and Town & City. (I would add Skyloft to the stage choices, but that would screw things up a bit.)
 

MarioMeteor

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I have a love/hate relationship with Umbra Clock Tower. On one hand, the ridiculously high ceiling allows for higher survivability for Jigglypuff and Rosalina, my lightest characters. On the other hand though, it makes KOing off the top a real *****, especially with Jigglypuff, who gets like 6/10 of her kills off the top, and Mario, who gets 9/10 of his off the top. I will say that the music is delicious, though. That Tomorrow is Mine remix, yeeessss... I could care less about Bayonetta, but this soundtrack...

Delfino is my favorite stage in the game, second only to Battlefield. It's not because the layout appeals to me or because the music is fantastic, it's just a comfort thing. Just being on the stage makes me play better. I will say that this stage just barely scratches legal territory, not that I'm complaining.

Voting Lylat and Castle Siege.
 
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Zerp

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Delfino Plaza is one of my personal favorites, Super Mario Sunshine's probably my favorite non-smash game ever made, which is probably the biggest reason why I love the stage. Anyway though, the stage is great for Jigglypuff, she has a much easier time using the platforms to her advantage than most other characters due to her air speed, and in certain transformations you can throw out Rest and instantly wake up due to water, in other words perform offstage Rests and not die.

I don't know for a fact or anything and I haven't played here enough to truly judge, but Umbra Clock Tower feels like a bad stage for Jigglypuff, the ceiling's obnoxiously high, and those platforms that appear off stage don't benefit you as much as it helps any opponent struggling to get back, it often feels like the stage is working against you, but please take what I say about Umbra Clock Tower with a grain of salt since I haven't played there often.

Here's the results https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1GWLAYfMbZvGxuhA2b20ocqN0bLnsk0fhqTR4hFm2UKg/viewanalytics

Lylat Cruise + Town and City won today, here's their poll http://goo.gl/forms/TKctPqVI8d

Here's the stages you can vote for
Castle Siege (U)
Arena Ferox (3DS)
Prism Tower (3DS)
Yoshi's Island (3DS)

I'm voting for Prism Tower and Yoshi's Island.
 

Furret24

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I love Town and City's main song, and the stage layout is nice too.

I just hate how close the blastline is to the stage. It really limits edgeguarding.

I vote for Prism Tower and Yoshi's Island.
:162:
 

Green Zelda

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Don't know much about Duck Hunt, but Smashville is a pretty fair neutral stage that doesn't really need any changes.
Of course, stuff like this (skip to 6:48) occasionally happens, but, like ^ said, this doesn't happen often.
This. (Replace Smashville with Town and City)
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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Lylat Cruise is a pretty obvious counterpick stage. The tilting can get annoying at times, but probably more annoying is the floor's design and the jank edges, which I believe to be the things that should be changed.

Town and City can be a bit crazy, but the only area I would change it in is that the platforms that move off the stage shouldn't kill anyone who is standing on them (make them like the Clock Tower platforms).

Voting for the Fire Emblem stages.
 

Zerp

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I love Town and City's aesthetics and it's platforms, but I don't like how cramped the stage is. Not sure how good or bad it is for Puff.


Lylat Cruise also has lovely (but distracting) aesthetics but it's horizontal blastbox also makes it cramped. Also not sure how good or bad it is for Puff. Not sure if it's a problem for anyone else, but as much as I love how the stage looks, all the bright clashing colors in the dark background are really hard to ignore personally, so I don't really enjoy this stage much.

Here's Town and City and Lylat Cruise's results https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1_yrrDcouXooPd4ojVp5X6LW42VUQHlGo2_SkmOQ41Xk/viewanalytics

Prism Tower and Yoshi's Island won today, here's their poll http://goo.gl/forms/TpOBy3yZDB

Tomorrow we're doing Castle Siege (U) and Arena Ferox (3DS).

You can vote for whoever you want to start the second round with. I'm voting for :4kirby:, I think he's a good one to start with.
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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Yoshi's Island is the stage that was undeservedly removed from the home consoles. It is a really nice stage, with the uniqueness of a single large platform as well as Big Randall making a visit. There isn't usually jank (besides Randall making a save), so I'm fine with it.

Don't have experience with Prism Tower, sorry.

Voting :4greninja:.
 

TheSpnBrm

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I don't have any experience with Castle siege from a competitive stand point, only casual, so I can only give my brief observations. With that being said most of my complaints would be with it's second transformation promoting a camping game with the statues being able to block projectiles, tilted platforms leading to a walkoff, and the grounded walkoff itself. With the stage transforming every 40 seconds, it makes something that should always be respected.
It's worth noting that the act of transformation can save people. Overall I'm not found of this map for competitive play.

Arena Ferox is one I have more experience with and I feel this map with it's large size even before it's transformations and the feature of impassable barriers really make this map frustrating to anyone not playing a character that can make use of this stages freedom to charge an attack or meter. I understand that Smash 3DS doesn't have as big a pool of tourney legal stages which makes it easier to digest but in the end it feels as if this map would ideally be a double maps.

Voting for :4feroy:
 

Furret24

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Yoshi's Island is the stage that was undeservedly removed from the home consoles. It is a really nice stage, with the uniqueness of a single large platform as well as Big Randall making a visit. There isn't usually jank (besides Randall making a save), so I'm fine with it.

Don't have experience with Prism Tower, sorry.

Voting :4greninja:.
Randall?
:162:
 

L1N3R1D3R

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I don't have any experience with Castle siege from a competitive stand point, only casual, so I can only give my brief observations. With that being said most of my complaints would be with it's second transformation promoting a camping game with the statues being able to block projectiles, tilted platforms leading to a walkoff, and the grounded walkoff itself. With the stage transforming every 40 seconds, it makes something that should always be respected.
It's worth noting that the act of transformation can save people. Overall I'm not found of this map for competitive play.

Arena Ferox is one I have more experience with and I feel this map with it's large size even before it's transformations and the feature of impassable barriers really make this map frustrating to anyone not playing a character that can make use of this stages freedom to charge an attack or meter. I understand that Smash 3DS doesn't have as big a pool of tourney legal stages which makes it easier to digest but in the end it feels as if this map would ideally be a double maps.

Voting for :4feroy:
The original post is kinda confusing to follow, but we're actually talking about Yoshi's Island and Prism Tower "today", and those two stages tomorrow.

Technically its name is Blarggwich, but he acts similar to Melee's Yoshi Island Randall because he randomly pops out on one of the sides to make a save, whether for recovery or a combo.
 

Furret24

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Technically its name is Blarggwich, but he acts similar to Melee's Yoshi Island Randall because he randomly pops out on one of the sides to make a save, whether for recovery or a combo.
Actually, Randall doesn't appear randomly. He goes in a set rectangular path at a set speed.

Blarrgwich, I'm not sure about. :/
:162:
 

Zerp

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I'm so sad Yoshi's Island was cut from the Wii U version, it's such a good stage. It's got this nice platform in the middle and is pretty balanced, not sure how good it is for Puff due to a lack of playing it, but, I'd say it's safe to guess it's probably above average for her, it can't be bad.

Prism Tower's one of my favorite stages, it's got great lighting, it matches Jigglypuff's hat, and most of all, it's a good stage. It's one of those transforming ones, and it's a good one, it swaps between different platforms in the sky, only problem is a walk-off at the beginning, but it's a very negligible problem. I wish it was in the Wii-U version.

Here's their results https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1GLHP9bCF5_GeoGoZq4vjr3beSmoQvD3Etg1vpliS-0A/viewanalytics

And today's about Arena Ferox and Castle Siege so here's their poll http://goo.gl/forms/JMx8Gd0JgR

Also, I'm sorry about any confusion about which stages we were rating yesterday, I didn't realize how bad my wording was until now, hahaha, whoops.

No character got the most votes, it just came down to random selection, and it ended up being Roy, so tomorrow, we'll be doing Roy!
 

FamilyTeam

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I get the feeling Arena Ferox is only legal on the 3DS version for lack of options. The transformations have *lots* of solid walls that can and *will* save people and ruin KOs.

Castle Siege is fine by me, though. The jankiest thing about it is that one of the transformations has walkoffs, but I don't see them getting abused that much.
 

TheSpnBrm

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The original post is kinda confusing to follow, but we're actually talking about Yoshi's Island and Prism Tower "today", and those two stages tomorrow.



Technically its name is Blarggwich, but he acts similar to Melee's Yoshi Island Randall because he randomly pops out on one of the sides to make a save, whether for recovery or a combo.
Sorry about that, I had noticed the date from the post prior had mentioned that these would be the next stages discussed tomorrow so I assumed we had already switched to that stages discussion already.
 

Zerp

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Wintermelon43

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So, since I missed so many of these, I'm just going to list every stage now and my thoughts on them and stuff. I'll do all the ones I personally think should be legal on Wii U (All of them are generally considered legal except for one).

Note that I don't know too much about stages and could be wrong in many ways.

Smashville:
Smashville, like EVERY stage should be kept the same. I've found that it's basciailly a mix of Battlefield and Final Destination, which makes it a good neutral stage for characters that like one of them, or a great stage for one that doesn't do good nor bad at either one of those

:4kirby::This isn't Kirby's best stage in general, as the platforms are low, but they are still there, and the stage doesn't have much problems in general with him, so the stage is still ok.

:4jigglypuff::This is probably one of Jigglypuff's better stages because of the platforms locations, it probably helps with aieral combos, but i'm not sure I ever played on this stage with her outside of cpus.

:4cloud::Cloud, i've found, Smashville is one of his best stages, since the platforms slightly helps his recovery, and the platform moving, speaficially offstage, can let him charge his limit more by camping on it, and stopping it before getting hit. This is espicially good aganist characters like Little Mac.

:4pacman::4duckhunt:: Pretty good stage, as it only has one moving platform, so it's one of the best stages for the, behind Final Destination of course. It's a little better for Duck Hunt than Pac-Man though.

:4dedede::I don't much about Dedede's stage lists, but I think Smashville would be pretty good due to the platform; I'm guessing platforms are pretty good and that the platform helps his recovery

Battlefield/Dream land:

:4kirby::Battlefield is one of Kirby's best stages, and Dream Land is even better! The high platforms are useful for killing with up throw, and Kirby is good with platforms too in general. Dream Land is even better of the early vertical kills (Vertical is up and down, right?)

:4jigglypuff::Jigglypuff, like Kirby, likes battlefield due to the platforms there. Platforms help Jigglypuff more than Kirby outside of up throw, due to her higher air mobility. This lets her use the platforms more to her advantage. Due to her extremely low weight, and lack of rising up throw, she actually likes Battlefield much more than Dream Land, although both are pretty good.

:4cloud::One of Cloud best stages., if not his best stage complety, is Battlefield and Dream Land. The platforms allow him to land and then use another aieral, such as up air, at an even higher location. Which is really dangerous. Cloud prefers Dream Land more due to the low blastzones.

:4pacman::4duckhunt:: Pac-Man and Duck Hunt don't really like this stage, due to the platforms making it harder to hit people with projectiles.

:4dedede::I don't know much about Dedede's stage lists, but I'm guessing this stage is good due to the platforms

Final Destination:

:4kirby::This is actually one of Kirby's worst stages, mainly since his up throw takes longer to kill without the platforms. Even then, Kirby likes platforms in general. This stage makes projectile-related matchups much worse too, such as Pac-Man, Duck Hunt, and Mega Man

:4jigglypuff::This is one of Jigglypuff's worst stages due to the lack of platforms, which benefit her a ton. Also, like Kirby, it makes her projectile-related matchups worse, such as Duck Hunt and Mega Man.

:4pacman:: Pac-Man extremely benefits from there being no platforms at all. His projectiles much more useful, espicially when no one is able to prevent getting hit with platforms. This stage makes many of his matchups much easier.

:4duckhunt:: Pretty much the same as Pac-Man. He extremely benefits from the lack of platforms, his projectiles are much useful, nobody is able to prevent getting hit by a projectile by using the platforms, and his matchups are much better.

:4dedede:: I don't know much about Dedede's stage lists, but I',m guessing this stage is ok because while it has no stages, Gordos are a little better without platforms.

Town and City:

:4kirby:: This is one of Kirby's best stages, like Battlefield, Dream Land, and Duck Hunt, due to the high platforms for up throw. However, that is the main reason; the platforms are hard to make advantage of otherwise as they are higher for some points of the stage.

:4jigglypuff::Despite this stage having a ton of platforms, which is good as Jigglypuff, this stage isn't as good as the other platform stages for Jigglypuff because of the platform height being higher than Smashville, Battlefield, etc. However, it is still a pretty good stage for her.

:4pacman::4duckhunt::This is one of their worst stages, as high platforms really interrupt Duck Hunt's can and Pac-Man's hydrant, plus all the other disadvantages of platforms.

:4dedede::I don't know much about Dedede's stage lists, but I'm guessing this stage isn't that good for him.

Lylat Cruise:

:4kirby::Havn't played this stage much, but I'm guessing the platform location iirc makes them not that useful for Kirby, and that the ledges are weird with his recovery, so I'm guesing this is one of his worst stages.

:4jigglypuff::Havn't played on this stage with Puff ever (I havn't really played on this stage much at all), but theoritictially, she probably doesn't like this stage much, as iirc the platform placing isn't that good for her.

:4pacman::4duckhunt:: No idea tbh

:4dedede::Don't know much Dedede's stage lists, but I'm guessing this stage isn't the best for him

Duck Hunt:

:4kirby::Duck Hunt is litertatly Kirby's best stage. The tree on the right is a good boost for Kirby's up throw, and the tree on the left is insanely good for Kirby's up throw. Kirby has no difficulty getting up the tree either, unlike characters like Little Mac. Spike edgeguards (And edgeguarding in general, really), are helped in this stage, and Kirby has a good spike in Down Air.

:4jigglypuff::Jigglypuff, I'm guessing is okay with stage, the tree is pretty good since Jigglypuff can easily get to the top of it, and her edgeguarding is improved due to the general blastzone improvments, but at the same time, she has no boost from normal platforms. idk how this stage is for her.

:4pacman::4duckhunt::idk for them, never seen them play her, but aI'm guessing it's one of the better stages for them, espicially Pac-Man, since it's basicially final destination with a high platform and an extremely high slew of platforms.

Delfino Plaza:

:4kirby::I'm guessing this is one of Kirby's better stages, due to the main part of the stage severly helping his recovery, and it having high platforms, but the transformations might not be the best though

:4jigglypuff::I'm guessing this is one of Jigglypuff's best stages, due to the transformations being pretty good for her aierals, and the main thing having convient platforms for her.

:4pacman::4duckhunt::idk





I also think Halberd, Castle Siege, and Pokemon Stadium 2 should be legal, but no one else thinks so so I don't have any character experience.

As for :4feroy:, I think he should get some frame data buffs on startup with moves, less endlag on moves, less landing lag on moves, and more rising range on up special. I think he is the 8th worst characte in the game due to those bad traits, plus having the worst results out of anybody in the entire game and his bad matchup spread.

I vote for :4dedede:
 

MarioMeteor

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Roy is such an odd character. His strengths are incredible, yet so are his weaknesses. I think he's top of mid tier, but he could still use a buff or two thrown his way. Something to actually give him an advantage over others.

First and foremost, give him a range buff, because he needs it so very badly. His range is pitiful for a sword fighter. Obviously this means an increase on hilt and tipper hitboxes.
Second, decrease his falling speed and gravity. Roy could very easily have one of the best air games of the cast if he didn't fall at the speed of gravity. With this, he'll actually be able to space properly, and not to mention have attributes that match his weight class.
Lastly, give him much better autocancel windows on his aerials. The ones that he has now are damn near nonexistent, and while the landing lag buffs were nice, autocancel windows would help him out so much.

All in all, Roy is an overhated character with lots of potential that could easily be unlocked with just a few changes that, truth be told, he should've had in the first place.

I vote Mewtwo.
 

FamilyTeam

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All in all, Roy is an overhated character with lots of potential that could easily be unlocked with just a few changes that, truth be told, he should've had in the first place.
I love how you say he's overrated when you say he's "top of mid tier" at the start of the post.

EDIT: Yes, it's overhated, I reread it. Doesn't make that statement any less of an absurd.
 
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apparently fuz

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Roy is such an odd character. His strengths are incredible, yet so are his weaknesses. I think he's top of mid tier, but he could still use a buff or two thrown his way. Something to actually give him an advantage over others.

First and foremost, give him a range buff, because he needs it so very badly. His range is pitiful for a sword fighter. Obviously this means an increase on hilt and tipper hitboxes.
Second, decrease his falling speed and gravity. Roy could very easily have one of the best air games of the cast if he didn't fall at the speed of gravity. With this, he'll actually be able to space properly, and not to mention have attributes that match his weight class.
Lastly, give him much better autocancel windows on his aerials. The ones that he has now are damn near nonexistent, and while the landing lag buffs were nice, autocancel windows would help him out so much.

All in all, Roy is an overhated character with lots of potential that could easily be unlocked with just a few changes that, truth be told, he should've had in the first place.

I vote Mewtwo.
Oh boy.
 

Ryochi

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Roy is such an odd character. His strengths are incredible, yet so are his weaknesses. I think he's top of mid tier, but he could still use a buff or two thrown his way. Something to actually give him an advantage over others.

First and foremost, give him a range buff, because he needs it so very badly. His range is pitiful for a sword fighter. Obviously this means an increase on hilt and tipper hitboxes.
Second, decrease his falling speed and gravity. Roy could very easily have one of the best air games of the cast if he didn't fall at the speed of gravity. With this, he'll actually be able to space properly, and not to mention have attributes that match his weight class.
Lastly, give him much better autocancel windows on his aerials. The ones that he has now are damn near nonexistent, and while the landing lag buffs were nice, autocancel windows would help him out so much.

All in all, Roy is an overhated character with lots of potential that could easily be unlocked with just a few changes that, truth be told, he should've had in the first place.

I vote Mewtwo.
Top of Mid? Like.....how?
 

MarioMeteor

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Top of Mid? Like.....how?
Like I said, his strengths are very easy to play to and he's better than a lot of characters people put him under, really. Top of mid may be debatable, but I don't see him any lower than mid.
 
D

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Roy is such an odd character. His strengths are incredible, yet so are his weaknesses. I think he's top of mid tier.
So, you think he's better than characters like :4marth:/:4lucina:, :4myfriends:,:4dk:, :4yoshi:,:4pit:, :4rob:, :4mewtwo: and :4greninja:?

I need a drink.
 
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FamilyTeam

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Like I said, his strengths are very easy to play to and he's better than a lot of characters people put him under, really. Top of mid may be debatable, but I don't see him any lower than mid.
How? He's a worse Lucina, by this point. Roy's state is kinda sad.
 

Furret24

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I vote :4kirby:.

As for Roy? Probably low tier. He's fast and hits hard, but his recovery is trash, he's easy to combo due to his high falling speed, he range is poor, and his kill confirms are limited, making killing with him a bit of an issue (though he does have some powerful moves). His design of his sweetspots hinder him too, since it discourages spacing, despite being a Swordfighter.

I think an overall buff in his sourspots would do him good. They're overly weak right now, and, as I said before, discourage him from taking advantage of one of the key strong points Swordfighters have, their disjointed range.

Speaking of range, it should probably be generally increased. It's surprisingly small for a character who fights almost solely with disjoints.

I'm not too experienced with Roy though, so I can't say much more than this.
:162:
 

MarioMeteor

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So, you think he's better than characters like :4marth:/:4lucina:, :4myfriends:,:4dk:, :4yoshi:,:4pit:, :4rob:, :4mewtwo: and :4greninja:?

I need a drink.
You say this as if your idea of mid tier and my idea of mid tier are the same, but they're not. Some of them I do think he's better than, some I don't.
How? He's a worse Lucina, by this point. Roy's state is kinda sad.
Even if that were true, Lucina isn't a bad character, so that's not saying much.
 

apparently fuz

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Like I said, his strengths are very easy to play to and he's better than a lot of characters people put him under, really. Top of mid may be debatable, but I don't see him any lower than mid.
Alright, Roy has:
  • Terrible air acceleration that hampers his solid air speed.
  • Awful autocancel windows on all of his aerials, making his close range pressure and overall spacing game poor.
  • His frame data doesn't even complement his niche in the hilt mechanic, his frame data is no better than Marth. Because Marth has drastically better range, it means that his boxing game is better than Roy's by a significant margin.
  • Sourspots that hit like a wet noodle.
  • High gravity and physics, meaning that he has a non-existent edgeguarding game and recovering is a risk in itself (in addition to his poor up-b).
Does that sound like a mid tier character to you?
 
D

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You say this as if your idea of mid tier and my idea of mid tier are the same, but they're not. Some of them I do think he's better than, some I don't.

Even if that were true, Lucina isn't a bad character, so that's not saying much.
...but all of those characters are commonly considered mid tiers by the competitive community, and even moreso by top players. So yes, that matters.
 

MarioMeteor

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...but all of those characters are commonly considered mid tiers by the competitive community, and even moreso by top players. So yes, that matters.
Unfortunately, my friend, I don't care. I'm not talking about what other people think, I'm talking about what I think, and I think Roy's mid tier, simple as that.
 
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Ryochi

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Like I said, his strengths are very easy to play to and he's better than a lot of characters people put him under, really. Top of mid may be debatable, but I don't see him any lower than mid.
Are you really trying to tell me that Roy's somehow better than characters like Marth, Toon Link, and Greninja?

Those characters have better MU spreads and better advantages. Like having safer moves on block, being able to space/camp, and just being an overall solid character with actual reward for picking them up.

Being "very easy to play" doesn't cut it. It doesn't mean anything when he sometimes struggles to get kills and can have a really hard time getting in.
 
D

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Unfortunately, my friend, I don't care. I'm not talking about what other people think, I'm talking about what I think, and I think Roy's mid tier, simple as that.
if you think Roy is mid tier, go to majors and prove it lmao
 
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Wintermelon43

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Unfortunately, my friend, I don't care. I'm not talking about what other people think, I'm talking about what I think, and I think Roy's mid tier, simple as that.
In other words, You know you're wrong about Roy, and can't argue aganist Feelicks and FamilyTeam, and so, chose not to argue about it anymore and just end off with this.

if you think Roy is mid tier, go to EVO and prove it lmao
He lives closer to Florida than California/Nevada, so go prove it at CEO since it's easier MarioMeteor MarioMeteor
 
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Green Zelda

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Alright everyone, let's just "agree to disagree", before things get out of hand. (please :()
 
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