The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[L1N3R1D3R]

Marth is a solid character, but he still needs some changes, namely making Down throw a more consistent combo throw, Down smash have a use, and Down air have much less end lag. All of these changes would apply to Lucina, too.

And yes, Marth is objectively better than Roy.

Voting Jiggs because that's the norm now.

 

[FamilyTeam]

If you made Marcina's aerials faster and decreased some of the lag in their stuff, they'd be very dangerous character. As it stands, they're already very good, but I feel like they're one buff away from being excellent.

 

[BlueX]

Roy is much stronger than Marth in terms of raw power, his frame data is better, he has better out of shield options, and he's generally a more rewarding character when played correctly.

I am going to have to disagree on this.

Marth has much better range than Roy, Marth requires a lot of precision... this means that Marth can be much more rewarding imo when you get the tip of the sword at the tip can deal with damage and more knockback. Same for his smash attacks, tipper f-smash is hard to land but once you do it then it can be very deadly.

With the recent 1.1.5 patch, he has received so much buffs that he is much better than he was before. I really do think that Marth is much better than Roy because of some of his flaws. His OOS might be the same as Marth (I could be wrong. Correct me if this is the case) again with the raw power as Marth can kill from his tip which means it is much safer to use opposed to Roy where you have to kill close to your opponent.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I was busy when Kirby's day was, so I'll just say this: His air speed should be improved, in order to help his neutral and appraoch a little more for sure. Final Cutter's frame data should be better to make his recovery better and make it an ok tool to use. A few more buffs would be cool but not neccisary.

 

[MarioMeteor]

His sourspots are less useful than Marth's, though, and his sweetspots are hard to achieve.

True, but Roy's sweetspota are stronger.

And those other two points... Dunno where you even got that from, tbh.

Couldn't have been from actually playing the character, no way!

I am going to have to disagree on this.

Marth has much better range than Roy, Marth requires a lot of precision... this means that Marth can be much more rewarding imo when you get the tip of the sword at the tip can deal with damage and more knockback. Same for his smash attacks, tipper f-smash is hard to land but once you do it then it can be very deadly.

With the recent 1.1.5 patch, he has received so much buffs that he is much better than he was before. I really do think that Marth is much better than Roy because of some of his flaws. His OOS might be the same as Marth (I could be wrong. Correct me if this is the case) again with the raw power as Marth can kill from his tip which means it is much safer to use opposed to Roy where you have to kill close to your opponent.

You can disagree, that's fine. I'm not trying to convince you, but Roy's sweetspots are easier to land, though, and hit much harder. Marth may find himself struggling to KO because his tippers require such heavy spacing. This isn't a problem with Roy, because he's always going to be in your face, where he's strongest, and his superior speed only helps that. The reason why I say Roy has better out of shield options is because two of his more powerful kill moves, up tilt and forward tilt, come out very quickly, and chances are if you're shielding an attack, you're going to be right in hilt range. Their up specials and up smashes OoS are about equal, but that's all Marth has.

 

[Furret24]

Roy is much stronger than Marth in terms of raw power, his frame data is better, he has better out of shield options, and he's generally a more rewarding character when played correctly.

As of now I'm in conflict as to rather Marth is better than Roy. Pre-1.13 if you told me that Marth was better, I'd have laughed in your face, but now, I don't know. His range increase is what really had me second-guessing myself.

That said, I think Marth is an underrated mid tier as of 1.15, and I'm pretty happy with the way he is. I can't think of much more they can do with him, but I'm sure Sakurai will find a way.

I'll vote Jigglypuff, even though she got no changes.

I don't know why, but i'm going to respond to this.

You say Roy is much stronger than Marth and has better frame data. Clear data however proves this wrong.

Move | |
Jab 1 | Frame 5-7, 5%/3%, 55:30, FAF 26. | Frame 5-7, 7.5%/4.8%, 40:60, FAF 23.
Jab 2 | Frame 3-5, 6%/4%, 62:75 FAF 29 | N/A.
Ftilt | Frame 8-11, 12%/9%, 55:85/30:70, FAF 34 | Frame 8-10, 12.5%/9%/8%, 30/40/40:100/80/80, FAF 32
Utilt | Frame 6-12, 9%/6%/5%, 65 (52 Late):100, FAF 34 | Frame 6-11, 12%/7%, 35/30:103/100, FAF 39
Dtilt | Frame 7-8, 10%/7%, 50/40:40 FAF 24 | Frame 7-8, 11%/6.5%, 50/40:40, FAF 22
Fsmash | Frame 10-13, 18%/13%, 80/55:80, FAF 52 | Frame 14-15, 20%/17%/12%, 70/70/30:70, FAF 55
Usmash | Frame 13-17, 20%/16%/16%, 40/45/45:95/90/90, FAF 59 | Frame 12-23, 17%, 70:90 (Last Hit [10%]), FAF 59
Dsmash Hit 1 | Frame 6-7, 12%/8%/8%, 50/70/50:88, FAF 55 | Frame 6-7, 15%/10%, 42/15:85/90, FAF 63
Dsmash Hit 2 | Frame 21-23, 17%/12%/12%, 50/70/50:88 | Frame 21-22, 17%/11%, 42/15:85/90
Nair Hit 1 | Frame 6-7, 5%/3.5%, 30:50, FAF 50, Landing Lag 12 Frames | Frame 6-7, 6%/4%, 30:30, FAF 46, Landing Lag 11 Frames
Nair Hit 2 | Frame 15-21, 9.5%/7%, 60/50:100/90 | Frame 15-21, 8.5%/5%, 50:100
Fair | Frame 6-8, 11.5%/8%, 40:90/80, FAF 38, Landing Lag 16 Frames, AC in a short hop | Frame 10-12, 11%/7%, 50:80, FAF 30, Landing Lag 13 Frames
Bair | Frame 7-11, 12.5%/9%, 40:94/85, FAF 40, Landing Lag 17 Frames, AC in a short hop | Frame 8-10, 12%/9%, 30/10:100, FAF 36, Landing Lag 16 Frames
Uair | Frame 5-12, 13%/9.5%, 40:84/80, FAF 46, Landing Lag 14 Frames | Frame 5-12, 9%/6%, 40/10:80/70, FAF 42, Landing Lag 14 Frames
Dair (Sourspot) | Frame 9-13, 14%/12%/12%, 20/40/30:80/70, FAF 60, Landing Lag 24 Frames | Frame 16-17, 15%/10%, 20/30:90, FAF 52, Landing Lag 23 Frames
Dair (Spike) | Frame 11, 15%, 20:80 |Frame 16-17, 15%, 20:90
Nspecial Uncharged | Frame 19-20, 9%/8% (25% Shield), 60/30:100/90, FAF 51 | Frame 23-26, 6%, 40:110, FAF 45
Nspecial Fully Charged | Frame 78-79, 24%/22% (50% Shield), 60/30:100/90, FAF 110 | Frame 262-265, 50%/36% (10% Self-Damage), 50:83/70, FAF 284
Sspecial | Since this would be extremely complicated, i'll just say that they have the same startup and FAF and all angles of all hits for both versions, All hits and angles of Marth's version around 1% more, but Roy's have increased knockback so both versions kill about as early as the other. | N/A
Uspecial Grounded | Frame 5-11, Intangible 4-5, 11%, 70:74 (Early [11%]) | Frame 9-21, Super Armor 4-10, 16.8%, 40:130 (Final Hit [8%])
Uspecial Aerial | Frame 5-11, Intangible 1-5, 11%, 70:74 (Early) | Frame 9-21, 13.5%, 40:120 (Final Hit [6%])
Counter | Counters Frames 6-27, Intangible Frames 5-6, FAF 60 | Counters Frames 8-27, No Intangibility, FAF 60
Counter Attack | Frame 5-7, Intangible Frames 1-7, x1.2 Multiplier, Minimun 8%, 90:60, FAF 36 | Frame 5-6, Intangible Frames 1-6, Intangible Frames 1-6, x1.35 Multiplier, Minimun 9%, 35:100/70, FAF 37
Grabs | Their grab range and frame data is identical. | N/A
Dodges | Their dodge frame data is identical outside of Roy's rolls ending one frame sooner. | N/A
Throws | Roy's throws all do 0-2% more than Marth's, but they all also have less knockback, so their power is roughly identical. | N/A

​

As you can see from this chart, Not only are Marth's sweetspots overall stronger than Roy's, his sourspots are also much stronger. This proves that Marth's raw power is better than Roy's. From this, we can also see, while almost identical, Marth's frame data is overall slightly better than Roy's. He has autocancel aerials while Roy has none, his has longer lasting hitboxes (excluding Usmash and Uspecial), and is overall faster on startup on his moves than Roy (though, to be fair, Roy's moves generally have a lower FAF), with only thing Roy really having over him is landing lag, if by one a few frames. From this, we can also conclude Marth is overall more rewarding to master than Roy due to his better kit.

1.1.5 even further proves this, making Marth even stronger and ranged than Roy. Though it's not a huge plus for skilled Marths, his tippers are also a lot easier to land now, lowering his learning a curve a little.

I can't see how Roy is better than Marth. Marth has better power, range, spacing, combos, frame data, recovery, and is harder to juggle (due to his lower falling speed). The only thing Roy really has over him is mobility, OOS options, and weight. Even then, the weight is a bit of a double-edge sword, since it makes him easier to combo.

True, but Roy's sweetspota are stronger.

Couldn't have been from actually playing the character, no way!

You can disagree, that's fine. I'm not trying to convince you, but Roy's sweetspots are easier to land, though, and hit much harder. Marth may find himself struggling to KO because his tippers require such heavy spacing. This isn't a problem with Roy, because he's always going to be in your face, where he's strongest, and his superior speed only helps that. The reason why I say Roy has better out of shield options is because two of his more powerful kill moves, up tilt and forward tilt, come out very quickly, and chances are if you're shielding an attack, you're going to be right in hilt range. Their up specials and up smashes OoS are about equal, but that's all Marth has.

While Roy's sweetspots are easier to land, they're also closer to him, forcing to be close up. This is made even worse because of how weak his sourspots are. As seen above, Marth's tippers are noticably stronger than Roy's. I find the best example being how Marth's tipper fsmash kills roughly 20% sooner than Roy's.

Due to the location of his sweetspot, Roy also suffers a lot if he can't get in, unlike Marth, who hit's his hardest at the end of his long range. It's also worth noting that Marth can still kill fairly well with his sourspots, unlike Roy. I find the best example for this being his fsmash, which still kills around 100%, even with the sourspot. Compare this to Roy, who's 17% hit on fsmash doesn't kill until around 110%, while the 12% hit doesn't kill until around 200%.

It's also worth mentioning that Marth's sourspots are actually pretty decent. Marth's good frame data makes them really good for combos, especially with aerials. Plus, as stated above, they still retain okay kill power, unlike Roy's, which is also stated above.

Sorry if this is a bit hard to read by the way. :|

 

[MarioMeteor]

I don't know why, but i'm going to respond to this.

Because I'm just that enticing of a person.

You say Roy is much stronger than Marth and has better frame data. Clear data however proves this wrong.

Move | |
Jab 1 | Frame 5-7, 5%/3%, 55:30, FAF 26. | Frame 5-7, 7.5%/4.8%, 40:60, FAF 23.
Jab 2 | Frame 3-5, 6%/4%, 62:75 FAF 29 | N/A.
Ftilt | Frame 8-11, 12%/9%, 55:85/30:70, FAF 34 | Frame 8-10, 12.5%/9%/8%, 30/40/40:100/80/80, FAF 32
Utilt | Frame 6-12, 9%/6%/5%, 65 (52 Late):100, FAF 34 | Frame 6-11, 12%/7%, 35/30:103/100, FAF 39
Dtilt | Frame 7-8, 10%/7%, 50/40:40 FAF 24 | Frame 7-8, 11%/6.5%, 50/40:40, FAF 22
Fsmash | Frame 10-13, 18%/13%, 80/55:80, FAF 52 | Frame 14-15, 20%/17%/12%, 70/70/30:70, FAF 55
Usmash | Frame 13-17, 20%/16%/16%, 40/45/45:95/90/90, FAF 59 | Frame 12-23, 17%, 70:90 (Last Hit [10%]), FAF 59
Dsmash Hit 1 | Frame 6-7, 12%/8%/8%, 50/70/50:88, FAF 55 | Frame 6-7, 15%/10%, 42/15:85/90, FAF 63
Dsmash Hit 2 | Frame 21-23, 17%/12%/12%, 50/70/50:88 | Frame 21-22, 17%/11%, 42/15:85/90
Nair Hit 1 | Frame 6-7, 5%/3.5%, 30:50, FAF 50, Landing Lag 12 Frames | Frame 6-7, 6%/4%, 30:30, FAF 46, Landing Lag 11 Frames
Nair Hit 2 | Frame 15-21, 9.5%/7%, 60/50:100/90 | Frame 15-21, 8.5%/5%, 50:100
Fair | Frame 6-8, 11.5%/8%, 40:90/80, FAF 38, Landing Lag 16 Frames, AC in a short hop | Frame 10-12, 11%/7%, 50:80, FAF 30, Landing Lag 13 Frames
Bair | Frame 7-11, 12.5%/9%, 40:94/85, FAF 40, Landing Lag 17 Frames, AC in a short hop | Frame 8-10, 12%/9%, 30/10:100, FAF 36, Landing Lag 16 Frames
Uair | Frame 5-12, 13%/9.5%, 40:84/80, FAF 46, Landing Lag 14 Frames | Frame 5-12, 9%/6%, 40/10:80/70, FAF 42, Landing Lag 14 Frames
Dair (Sourspot) | Frame 9-13, 14%/12%/12%, 20/40/30:80/70, FAF 60, Landing Lag 24 Frames | Frame 16-17, 15%/10%, 20/30:90, FAF 52, Landing Lag 23 Frames
Dair (Spike) | Frame 11, 15%, 20:80 |Frame 16-17, 15%, 20:90
Nspecial Uncharged | Frame 19-20, 9%/8% (25% Shield), 60/30:100/90, FAF 51 | Frame 23-26, 6%, 40:110, FAF 45
Nspecial Fully Charged | Frame 78-79, 24%/22% (50% Shield), 60/30:100/90, FAF 110 | Frame 262-265, 50%/36% (10% Self-Damage), 50:83/70, FAF 284
Sspecial | Since this would be extremely complicated, i'll just say that they have the same startup and FAF and all angles of all hits for both versions, All hits and angles of Marth's version around 1% more, but Roy's have increased knockback so both versions kill about as early as the other. | N/A
Uspecial Grounded | Frame 5-11, Intangible 4-5, 11%, 70:74 (Early [11%]) | Frame 9-21, Super Armor 4-10, 16.8%, 40:130 (Final Hit [8%])
Uspecial Aerial | Frame 5-11, Intangible 1-5, 11%, 70:74 (Early) | Frame 9-21, 13.5%, 40:120 (Final Hit [6%])
Counter | Counters Frames 6-27, Intangible Frames 5-6, FAF 60 | Counters Frames 8-27, No Intangibility, FAF 60
Counter Attack | Frame 5-7, Intangible Frames 1-7, x1.2 Multiplier, Minimun 8%, 90:60, FAF 36 | Frame 5-6, Intangible Frames 1-6, Intangible Frames 1-6, x1.35 Multiplier, Minimun 9%, 35:100/70, FAF 37
Grabs | Their grab range and frame data is identical. | N/A
Dodges | Their dodge frame data is identical outside of Roy's rolls ending one frame sooner. | N/A
Throws | Roy's throws all do 0-2% more than Marth's, but they all also have less knockback, so their power is roughly identical. | N/A

​

As you can see from this chart, Not only are Marth's sweetspots overall stronger than Roy's, his sourspots are also much stronger. This proves that Marth's raw power is better than Roy's. From this, we can also see, while almost identical, Marth's frame data is overall slightly better than Roy's. He has autocancel aerials while Roy has none, his has longer lasting hitboxes (excluding Usmash and Uspecial), and is overall faster on startup on his moves than Roy (though, to be fair, Roy's moves generally have a lower FAF), with only thing Roy really having over him is landing lag, if by one a few frames. From this, we can also conclude Marth is overall more rewarding to master than Roy due to his better kit.

...I don't know what you're seeing, but I'm very clearly seeing better frame data for a good part of that chart. And when I say "stronger," I mean KO power, not damage.

1.1.5 even further proves this, making Marth even stronger and ranged than Roy. Though it's not a huge plus for skilled Marths, his tippers are also a lot easier to land now, lowering his learning a curve a little.

I've already acknowledged that.

I can't see how Roy is better than Marth.

Tragic.

Marth has better power, range, spacing, combos, frame data, recovery, and is harder to juggle (due to his lower falling speed).

Not true, yes, yes, not true, incorrect, true, and that last one is more of a neutral point, as Roy's ridiculous falling speed also raises his survivability.

While Roy's sweetspots are easier to land, they're also closer to him, forcing to be close up. This is made even worse because of how weak his sourspots are. As seen above, Marth's tippers are noticably stronger than Roy's. I find the best example being how Marth's tipper fsmash kills roughly 20% sooner than Roy's.

And just how often are you going to see somebody land a tipper forward smash compared to a hilt forward smash? That ease of use makes a big difference in the grand scheme of things.

Due to the location of his sweetspot, Roy also suffers a lot if he can't get in, unlike Marth, who hit's his hardest at the end of his long range. It's also worth noting that Marth can still kill fairly well with his sourspots, unlike Roy. I find the best example for this being his fsmash, which still kills around 100%, even with the sourspot. Compare this to Roy, who's 17% hit on fsmash doesn't kill until around 110%, while the 12% hit doesn't kill until around 200%.

Okay, I'll give you that.

It's also worth mentioning that Marth's sourspots are actually pretty decent. Marth's good frame data makes them really good for combos, especially with aerials. Plus, as stated above, they still retain okay kill power, unlike Roy's, which is also stated above.

Outside of forward smash and up smash, both of which are very easy to hilt, Marth's tipped attacks are pretty weak. His hilt also outsizes his tip (although that may be have been changed) on most, if not all of his attacks. The same is true for Roy, but obviously it works in his favor.

 

[Yoshister]

And just how often are you going to see somebody land a tipper forward smash compared to a hilt forward smash? That ease of use makes a big difference in the grand scheme of things.

I dunno, I have a significantly easier time landing Marth's tips over Roy's hilts during a serious match and you think I'm trash at Smash.

Also, Roy can't approach for crap. He has an incredibly hard time against projectile spam.

 

[pmart]

Well, I know you are discussing character by character, but I put my thoughts on all the nerfs and buffs I think would benefit the game the most.
I've read the OP pdf log of changes, but I don't agree with the overall "reduce lag, make stronger/safer" vibe that I get from the document.
So here is the list of changes I would made, in kind of a tier list order.

PS: Sorry for my english

> Different lag on hit vs whiff, with smaller hitbox on upB, and witch time takes longer to recharge
> Banana goes a little higher (takes a little longer for diddy to get it)
> Weaker shield
> a bit less weight
> little less air speed
> Luma has more HP but is a little weaker (specially on rage)
> OK
> OK
> OK
> OK
> OK

> OK
> Little weaker backthrow with little better second jump and front throw
> More frames for perfect shield and better walk acceleration
> Weaker shield with less lag on upB and air dodge landing lag
> Little better dash/pivot game and air speed
> More shield damage
> A bit more range on Up B and aerial sideB
> Weaker counter, faster jumpsquat and more range on tilts
> Faster grabs/command grab and faster+armored side B
> More shield stun with a bit of armour on atacks
> Little bit faster (walk, run, air) with less startup frames on aerials and tilts

> More hit stun and shield stun on atacks, but no shadow sneak glitch
> Small boost on non-aura lucario
> Faster tilts, shield stronger and faster fall speed
> A little bit of armour when floating and small boost on air accel
> Little faster dash speed and less friction when shielded
> All attacks have a bit more range
> More shield stun on sourspot and faster walk speed and acceleration
> Less lag and more air acceleration
> A little bit of armour on his aerials and more shield stun on zair
> Able to angle its Smashes and Side Bs, with more difference on the pikmins
> A bit of armor on aerials and smashes with more air acceleration and fast fall speed

> More hit stun on all attacks, with less startup on normals
> Faster ground and air acceleration, with bigger chances of a nine with rage
> Each attack she uses heal <1% and fixed hitboxes
> Less damage taken on cart hurtbox, and less lag on projectiles
> Faster air speed and copied abilities have a small boost from the original (when not OP)
> Little more tough guy (ground and air) with less hit stun in general
> Eating charges fart faster, and stronger uncharged fart with weaker charged fart
> Fixed hitboxes and faster bomb, strong missle, roll
> Faster grab, faster item charging, faster movement (walk, run, air)
> More rewards from grab with small speed boost on walking, and shield protect melle atacks too
> more shield stun and faster monado arts change

> Faster walk speed, with stronger and faster moves but less duration and more recovery time on tomes
> Faster jumpsquat, air speed, aerials and more range on specials
> More range on all attacks, with a bit of armour on specials, while giving him more weight
> Better air mobility and pivot/dash dancing with little less armour on smashes.
> Better grab game, smash hitboxes fixed and faster air mobility
> Better grab game with little more shield stun on sourspot, and more shield damage on sweetspot
> Less startup on moves with more shield stun and little more weight
> Less lag on atacks, with more invensibility and wind boxes while also giving her more speed (walk, air)
> Faster specials, better shield and bigger hitboxes for sweetspots
> Attacks push shielded opponents away, and little more rage (like lucario, but not even close to the aura effect)
> Better specials (aside from downB),

 

[MarioMeteor]

I dunno, I have a significantly easier time landing Marth's tips over Roy's hilts during a serious match

Then you must be swinging at air.

and you think I'm trash at Smash.

Your words, not mine. I play both characters almost equally and the number of hilts I get far outnumbers those of tippers

Also, Roy can't approach for crap. He has an incredibly hard time against projectile spam.

Already been said. It's no secret that Roy isn't good at a range.

 

[Furret24]

...I don't know what you're seeing, but I'm very clearly seeing better frame data for a good part of that chart. And when I say "stronger," I mean KO power, not damage.

I'm not including just damage here. I also included knockback (On the chart "##:##", seen after the % bit), as both damage and knockback take into effect when calculating overall knockback, and, in turn, kill power. All of Marth's sweetspotted smashes, jab, dtilt, dash attack, nair, fair, bair, uair, side special, and up special (aerial only) kill sooner than Roy's sweetspotted versions. All of his throws kill sooner than Roy's too. If you compare their sourspots, all of Marth's sourspotted moves kill sooner than Roy's.

I'm curious about that frame data part. Marth has three autocancel aerials while Roy has none, Marth has a longer lasting hitbox on ftilt, utilt, fsmash, dsmash, dair, and Counter attack, and Marth's utilt, fsmash, fair, bair, dair, nspecial, uspecial, and Counter, Marth's fsmash and dsmash end sooner. I'm very clearly seeing better frame data for a good part of my chart.

I've already acknowledged that.

Cool. You want a cookie or something.

Not true, yes, yes, not true, incorrect, true, and that last one is more of a neutral point, as Roy's ridiculous falling speed also raises his survivability.

Actually, it goes true, true, true, true, true, and debatable. Roy's ridiculous also decreases his survivability offstage.

And just how often are you going to see somebody land a tipper forward smash compared to a hilt forward smash? That ease of use makes a big difference in the grand scheme of things.

Okay, I'll give you that.

Outside of forward smash and up smash, both of which are very easy to hilt, Marth's tipped attacks are pretty weak. His hilt also outsizes his tip (although that may be have been changed) on most, if not all of his attacks. The same is true for Roy, but obviously it works in his favor.

So weak, more than half of them are stronger than Roy's sweetspot versions. While Roy's hilt outsizes his tip (I think, I might be wrong on this one), his tips are useless, while Marth's hilts do have a use.

Well, I know you are discussing character by character, but I put my thoughts on all the nerfs and buffs I think would benefit the game the most.
I've read the OP pdf log of changes, but I don't agree with the overall "reduce lag, make stronger/safer" vibe that I get from the document.
So here is the list of changes I would made, in kind of a tier list order.

PS: Sorry for my english

> Different lag on hit vs whiff, with smaller hitbox on upB, and witch time takes longer to recharge
> Banana goes a little higher (takes a little longer for diddy to get it)
> Weaker shield
> a bit less weight
> little less air speed
> Luma has more HP but is a little weaker (specially on rage)
> OK
> OK
> OK
> OK
> OK

> OK
> Little weaker backthrow with little better second jump and front throw
> More frames for perfect shield and better walk acceleration
> Weaker shield with less lag on upB and air dodge landing lag
> Little better dash/pivot game and air speed
> More shield damage
> A bit more range on Up B and aerial sideB
> Weaker counter, faster jumpsquat and more range on tilts
> Faster grabs/command grab and faster+armored side B
> More shield stun with a bit of armour on atacks
> Little bit faster (walk, run, air) with less startup frames on aerials and tilts

> More hit stun and shield stun on atacks, but no shadow sneak glitch
> Small boost on non-aura lucario
> Faster tilts, shield stronger and faster fall speed
> A little bit of armour when floating and small boost on air accel
> Little faster dash speed and less friction when shielded
> All attacks have a bit more range
> More shield stun on sourspot and faster walk speed and acceleration
> Less lag and more air acceleration
> A little bit of armour on his aerials and more shield stun on zair
> Able to angle its Smashes and Side Bs, with more difference on the pikmins
> A bit of armor on aerials and smashes with more air acceleration and fast fall speed

> More hit stun on all attacks, with less startup on normals
> Faster ground and air acceleration, with bigger chances of a nine with rage
> Each attack she uses heal <1% and fixed hitboxes
> Less damage taken on cart hurtbox, and less lag on projectiles
> Faster air speed and copied abilities have a small boost from the original (when not OP)
> Little more tough guy (ground and air) with less hit stun in general
> Eating charges fart faster, and stronger uncharged fart with weaker charged fart
> Fixed hitboxes and faster bomb, strong missle, roll
> Faster grab, faster item charging, faster movement (walk, run, air)
> More rewards from grab with small speed boost on walking, and shield protect melle atacks too
> more shield stun and faster monado arts change

> Faster walk speed, with stronger and faster moves but less duration and more recovery time on tomes
> Faster jumpsquat, air speed, aerials and more range on specials
> More range on all attacks, with a bit of armour on specials, while giving him more weight
> Better air mobility and pivot/dash dancing with little less armour on smashes.
> Better grab game, smash hitboxes fixed and faster air mobility
> Better grab game with little more shield stun on sourspot, and more shield damage on sweetspot
> Less startup on moves with more shield stun and little more weight
> Less lag on atacks, with more invensibility and wind boxes while also giving her more speed (walk, air)
> Faster specials, better shield and bigger hitboxes for sweetspots
> Attacks push shielded opponents away, and little more rage (like lucario, but not even close to the aura effect)
> Better specials (aside from downB),

I would respond to this, but there's so much wrong in this one post.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

In regards to the Roy vs. Marth dilemma, I will say that even though Roy's air speed and weight are better than that of Marth's and Lucina's, he does have to risk getting in close to get the best possible results with his attacks.

Marth on the other hand, just needs to make sure that he hits with the tip of his sword, which results in less risk if you space his hits just right. And for Lucina, no need to worry about sweetspots for her.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I think Roy's sweetspot is what really hurts him in comparison to Marth and Lucina. Having to play close quarters only when your character has a sword that is supposed to aid with range and spacing and has poor sourspots really complicates things.
Mr. MarioMeteor, I have no idea where you got the idea that Marth's tippered moves are weak, seeing how my research clearly seems to indicate otherwise.
Marth can space out his opponent and use his superior sweetspot to KO enemies much more effeciently, while Lucina can hit opponents anywhere and KO opponents at very respectable percents. The point we're trying to make is that, yes, Roy might be more buff, but he's rather inefficient at what he does.
He can't approach very well, he gets comboed ridiculously more easily than Marcina while still getting KO'd roughly at the same percents (if not earlier), spacing for his sweetspots is riskier, he has a really crap recovery...
He really doesn't do anything that Marth and Lucina can't do as well but better.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The funny thing is, in terms of recovery, Marth, Lucina, and Roy all have their problems. Roy's air speed is high, but he falls faster than Marth and Lucina, and Blazer does not travel as far as Dolphin Slash. However, Blazer can offer more horizontal distance than Dolphin Slash, which does help Roy's recovery a bit.

For Marth and Lucina, both fall at a slower speed, but their air speed is weaker than Roy's air speed, and Dolphin Slash doesn't offer much horizontal movement. However, Dolphin Slash does offer better vertical distance than Blazer, so vertical recoveries are easier for Marth and Lucina than with Roy.

 

[FamilyTeam]

The funny thing is, in terms of recovery, Marth, Lucina, and Roy all have their problems. Roy's air speed is high, but he falls faster than Marth and Lucina, and Blazer does not travel as far as Dolphin Slash. However, Blazer can offer more horizontal distance than Dolphin Slash, which does help Roy's recovery a bit.

For Marth and Lucina, both fall at a slower speed, but their air speed is weaker than Roy's air speed, and Dolphin Slash doesn't offer much horizontal movement. However, Dolphin Slash does offer better vertical distance than Blazer, so vertical recoveries are easier for Marth and Lucina than with Roy.

I noticed that. Marth and Lucina's recovery are crap in their own special way, they remind me of Mario. But they're still better than Roy's, really.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

So...can we talk about Marth rather than debate about Marth and Lucina's superiority to Roy?

 

[Yoshister]

So...can we talk about Marth rather than debate about Marth and Lucina's superiority to Roy?

Obviously not.

But really, Marth hardly needs any changes at this point.

 

[Zerp]

Thanks for keeping it civil this time guys, I appreciate it.


Anyways, I think is pretty much fine as of now, he's gotten quite a few buffs to the point where I'd say he's a viable high mid-tier, and I don't think he needs any further adjustments, good for him.

Here's his results https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1jHpE-mIc5XGyUcW38MLuG2czWW7f3afJsVsAYdNKsLI/viewanalytics

We're doing Jigglypuff today, yay! Here's her poll http://goo.gl/forms/se4OxJVcuh

Here's the people you can vote for today.

I'll vote for , it seems fitting to me if he'd go right after Jigglypuff imo.

 

[Yoshister]

Jigglypuff needs to not be outclassed in the air.

Also I vote for .

 

[Eugene Wang]

Two mechanic changes would solve plenty of complaints about specific characters and moves:

• Make rage only apply to knockback growth. Now combos and multihits don't break if damage is accumulated.
• Make shield stun dependent on shield damage. Suddenly, pound and shieldbreaker are safe on shield.

And as for Jigglypuff, her main problem is that everything she does is unsafe. She can't trade because she's the lightest in the game, she can't threaten shields because her options are unsafe on shield, and she is super vulnerable if she lands Rest or Rollout under certain conditions. My suggestions:

• Increase base knockback on every freaking move. This gives Jigglypuff a combo game at the beginning of a stock, gives her some badly needed safety on hit, and makes it easier for her to hit the opponent into a blast line at reasonable percents, while reducing the chance that there happens to be some true combo into rest at 50+ percent, which seems to be why Jigglypuff isn't getting the buffs she needs.
• Reduce the first actionable frame of Rest to 150. This makes it so it isn't nearly as punishable if used as a stock ender, though still leaves Jigglypuff vulnerable if the move is whiffed.
• Increase the flower effect of Rest so that it deals 20 damage over the course of its activity, even if the opponent gets it off as quickly as possible. My guess for the flower is that it's supposed to be a reward for connecting Rest early in a stock, but it fails miserably at this purpose.
• Leave Jigglypuff in tumble 40 frames after connecting Rollout, rather than leaving her helpless until she hits something. Whoever was working on Jigglypuff at Bandai Namco should have realized that a move that punishes you for connecting it is badly designed.
• Add a sweetspot to Sing that causes aerial opponents touching it to sleep.
• Make Spinphony not cause flinching at the outer edge of its range.
• Make Jigglypuff not rocket off to the top blast line if her shield is broken. Seriously?
• Add a global sleep effect to Jigglypuff's Final Smash on its last active frame, making it so that opponents can't just jump offstage to avoid it. Again, doesn't affect competitive play, but why the heck not?

 

[Green Zelda]

Don't know much about jiggs, but someone (probably on this thread during round 1) said this:
"Make rest always star KO."

It's really sad how you can lose a stock because you rest someone (which is already a REALLY unsafe move, especially for the lightest character in the game) and end up getting hit by a half-charged dropkick and dying at 40%.

Of course, when there are 5 seconds left in a round, it's impossible to get star KO'd, but it shouldn't matter then tbh

Voting for the demon spawn my least favorite character since brawl, .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

just needs a few frames of end lag cut off on ALL her moves and Rest to never blast KO, and I bet she would be decent. UnfortunatelySakuraidoesn'tcareabouther#BuffThePu--what?

Voting for .

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Something seriously needs to be done about Sing. When you use it, you are vulnerable to attacks long enough for you to get Falcon Punched, your opponent sleeps for about one second, It doesn't affect airborne fighters, and it's range is abysmal just like the rest of Jigglypuff's moves. It needs cause opponents to sleep long enough to allow for setups at a minimum in the range of 100%-120%

 

[MarioMeteor]

Sakurai, please, for the love of all things holy, FIX THIS CHARACTER. Since I missed last Jigglypuff day, I'll make up for it in spades.

Spoiler

- Increase her air speed to 1.3. She's the lightest and one of the slowest, might as well have her be the best at something.
- Give forward tilt either more KO power to make up for its pitiful range, or more range to make up for its power.
- Make down tilt come out faster.
- Decrease up tilt's ending lag and knockback scaling to make it a reliable comboing tool.
- Decrease down tilt's startup.
- Decrease the starting lag, ending lag, and increase the range and knockback scaling of down and up smash. Additionally, increase down smash's damage to 13%.
- Do something about forward air to make it safer on shield.
- Sync back air's hitbox to match with the animation.
- Make up air faster and either increase or decrease the scaling to make it better at KOing or comboing.
- Make down air autocancel and make it spike weakly.
- Dramatically increase forward throw's scaling and lower the base knockback and angle. Essentially, make it like Melee Puff's.
- Decrease the scaling, base knockback, and ending lag of down throw to make it viable for combos.
- Lower back throw's angle.
- Fix something about up throw so that it can KO at 120% and above.
- Make it so that Jigglypuff can control herself after using Rollout and connecting.
- Pound should give Jigglypuff momentum like in Brawl, instead of stopping her clean.
- Rest always triggers a Star KO.
- Fix Sing. I don't know how, just...fix it.
- Fix her customs, too.

Suppose I'll vote for the Good Doctor.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Whoever designed the Spinphony custom special move really had to be out of his/her mind. It's just way too impractical to even be using in the first place; even more impractical than Ganondorf's Warlock Thrust, which is quite awful as well.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Jigglypuff needs a lot of buffs; she used to be high tier around the beginning of the game, then became to where she is now.

For one thing, Rest needs to kill earlier, and should always cause a star or screen ko.

Her down tilt and down smash need to be improved a lot, bigger hitboxes mostly.

Up smash and forward smash should have less startup (PLEASE remove the 3 frames at the beginning of the startup where she starts to kick, but then STOPS and starts AGAIN and kicks. (ugh)

More combos would be good too, espicially from throws

Speaking of throws, Jigglypuff should have a kill throw.

I'm sure she needs more too, but I don't feel like typing any more




I vote for

 

[Green Zelda]

she used to be high tier around the beginning of the game

Oh wow, she was? How? Was it because no one had been buffed yet?

 

[MarioMeteor]

Oh wow, she was? How? Was it because no one had been buffed yet?

Not really high tier, more like mid tier. Then, as the game progressed, she gradually started falling until she landed softly in the abyss, where she is now.

 

[Zerp]

I apologize for this being early, but I have a thing I need to do pronto, and if I were to wait till I was done, this would be posted a hour or two later, please understand.

Anyway, I'm not expecting buffs, (let's be real, they probably won't ever happen if they haven't already) but I'd really appreciate them. I don't even care what buffs we get at this point, just that their substantial and either give us a new strength or help mitigate at least one flaw, nearly anything at this point is acceptable for me.

Though, I'd prefer to get moderate air speed buffs,or a re-worked U-throw that actually lets you combo off of it, possibly even kill. A character that has such a hard time dealing with shields should get a really good reward off of a grab instead of just pummel damage, give people a reason to fear being in shield against her. That would be nice.

Here's Jigglypuff's results https://docs.google.com/forms/d/19D2iieVvF9K5TIAtQcgQEu_4K3miSluyRdrVd8uEeZ8/viewanalytics
These make me happy.

Anyways, here's His Majesty Dedede's poll http://goo.gl/forms/XTeVhnppam


Here's the people you can vote for today.

I vote for .

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I can pretty much say that the air speed nerf is just insult to injury for Dedede, since his original air speed was already quite bad to begin with. And sadly, three Glider bonus effects just isn't enough to help make his air speed better. In other words...

Glider x3
0.63 * 1.35 = 0.8505

You'd have to implement some other bonus effects to go alongside Glider, but they do have their own drawbacks.

Glider + Trade-Off Speedster
0.63 * 1.25 * 1.2 = 0.945

Trade-Off Speedster has the added penalty of making your fighter begin each life with 30% damage, so that would hurt Dedede's longevity.

 

[Eugene Wang]

Simply put, Dedede loses the neutral, and has a hard time getting it back. He needs to win the neutral multiple times to get a kill, but his kit doesn't help him much in that regard.

My preferred buffs (which, by the way, are pointed towards making King Dedede a monster edgeguarder that can turtle onstage):

• Change something about Gordo. SOMETHING. I don't care if it's that it doesn't go as fast when reflected, it bounces upwards, it has a slightly higher damage threshold, or it doesn't harm Dedede when it comes back. Something to make it slightly more useful in neutral.
• Make it much easier to embed gordos into walls.
• Let King Dedede cancel Inhale if it catches a projectile.
• Make the windbox of Inhale a command grab so that King Dedede can threaten shields better.
• Double the shield damage of Jet Hammer so that it can break shields at modest charges.
• Add and rejigger hitboxes so they match up to the animations. In particular, add some diagonal hitboxes so King Dedede doesn't have glaring blind spots.
• Reduce the angle of forward throw and back throw so that they set up edgeguard situations better.
• Reduce down throw knockback growth so that King Dedede has a hoo-hah kill confirm at high percents.
• Increase up throw knockback growth so it can also serve as a stock cap.
• Increase knockback on Forward Tilt so it can force edgeguard situations at low-medium percents and seal stocks at high percents.
• Change the angle of the non-spiking hits of Down Aerial to semi-spikes so they better serve as edgeguarding moves.
• Cut down the lag on every move.
• Change something about Gordo. SOMETHING, please, Namco guys!

 

[MarioMeteor]

So, true story, on two separate occasions, I've had Dedede's up smash whiff point blank. Another time, I got hit with it on the back swing, and even though I was definitely above 100%, it didn't even come close to KOing me. So yeah, fix that.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Revert all his nerfs, then further buff air speed, Gordo, and F-air end lag. And no, that would not be too much.

Voting for .

 

[MarioMeteor]

Oops, forgot to vote for Dr. Mario.

 

[apparently fuz]

Oops, forgot to vote for Dr. Mario.

I'm sure that Doc has already been done.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I'm sure that Doc has already been done.

I'm pretty sure he hasn't. Everybody's been "done" already, but we're redoing them.

 

[apparently fuz]

I'm pretty sure he hasn't. Everybody's been "done" already, but we're redoing them.

Oh alright. My mistake then.

 

[Zerp]

Personally, I feel like Dedede is on par with Jigglypuff in terms of how badly they need buffs, so Dedede's got it pretty bad, but even worse, he got nerfed, for seemingly no reason at all other than spite. I think it goes without saying that he needs tremendous buffs if he'll ever be viable again.
Here's Dedede's results https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1_Q_ajbw7vHcbIiklZljr-KU58l7LfLE7_owOx4EaKW0/viewanalytics

Here's Dr. Mario's poll: http://goo.gl/forms/Zymf1JH0tg

Here's the people you can vote for today.
I vote for

 

[Green Zelda]

Increase his air speed and jump height.
Cut off some of the endlag of his down b.
Seriously, I get that Sakurai wants doc to be different (stronger/slower) from mario, but
a "different" recovery ≠ a worse one.
Less endlag on pills would also be nice.

EDIT: ...can they actually increase a character's jump height in balance patches?

 

[Yoshister]

Decrease the lag on the Dr. Tornado.
Also give it the distance the Luigi Tornado gets.
Make his walk, run, and air speed higher, but not at Mario’s levels.
Make pills a little faster.
Make his back throw stronger than Mario’s.
Maybe give Dair a better autocancel window too.

I vote for Little Mac.